Hello Christians:

Does it diminish a prayer if the prayer leader ends it with just a plain Amen, instead of "in the name of Jesus, Amen"?

I ask, because as I watch the NASCAR race, I'm offended when they pray to Jesus. It kind of leaves ME OUT. I don't like to be left out.

I've also heard them end their invocation INCLUSIVELY, too. That is WITHOUT mention of Jesus. Are THOSE prayers less effective than those when Jesus's name is invoked?

excon

PS> Yeah, I complained about it right here several years ago... It STILL pisses me off.

Adding "in Jesus' name" definitely makes it a Christian prayer (Mooresville area IS part of the Bible Belt, if that's where the races are held -- my old stompin' grounds).

Hmmmm, I'm guessing (educated guess) that any prayer honestly prayed is good to go, mention of Jesus or not. I don't imagine God picks around through all the prayers and tosses out the non-Jesus ones.

I agree with WG. I firmly believe that god doesn't worrie about what your words say. He listens to your heart. I don't think it makes any difference to god if we invoke jesus' name or not. I believe god to be more tolerant than that.

It divides who you are praying to.

When they prayed to a "mother goddess" at a music event I walked out till the prayer was over.

If you are not christian, merely don't pray with a christian prayer.

If you are not christian, merely don't pray with a christian prayer.Hello Padre:

The thing is, you can't tell if it's a Christian prayer until they make it one at the end. It ain't right to say the whole thing and get snookered at the end.

excon

Hello Padre:

The thing is, you can't tell if it's a Christian prayer until they make it one at the end. It ain't right to say the whole thing and get snookered at the end.

excon
If Jesus didn't creep into the prayer before the ending, consider it just a regular prayer. Some pray-ers remember at the end "we gotta stick Jesus' name on this or it ain't a Christian prayer" so heck it's just a name. Jesus was a Jew and good guy, so go with it.

It doesn't leave you out of prayers EX.
Prayers are said FOR US and interceded THROUGH Jesus.
For example:
Like a kid (you/us/we) goes to mommy (representing Jesus here) and asks mommy to intercede for him to daddy (representing God)
To please reconsider an answer.
Should the kid be pissed off at mommy because he asked through mom?

Prayers can end in either Amen or in Jesus name
They are still prayers either way
Amen means so be it
Jesus name means you are asking him to intercede

It's that damned PC again EX you can't use the name of Jesus in a public place because you might offend someone. If Christians have come together in prayer I don't see the point of tacking Jesus name on it because when we are gathered in his name we have the assurance he is in the midst, but out in the open spaces at a secular event you would need to be specific

One day Christians will learn that you have to go all the way

Any believing Christian will end a prayer "in Jesus' name" because a fundamental tenet of the Christian faith is that Jesus is the mediator between God and man (as in 'humanity.') But let me ask you this ; even if you don't believe in Jesus (perhaps in other than a strictly historical context), why would you be offended by the mention of his name? After all, if you truly don't believe, then it's not real and that's that and anyone who thinks it is is a poor deluded fool ; hardly worth taking offense at. Pity maybe, but not offense. After all, I don't believe in Santa Claus but I'm not offended by little children who do. And I don't get offended when I see people dressed in Santa costumes in department stores talking to children and posing for pictures with them. So why is it any different when it comes to religious matters?

why would you be offended by the mention of his name? After all, if you truly don't believe, then it's not real and that's thatHello again, s:

You're ordinarily a pretty smart man... But, I guess when it comes to religious matters, you lose your mind...

Why was I offended?? For the same reason YOU would be if they ended a NASCAR invocation with the words "in Allah's name we prey".

excon

For the same reason YOU would be if they ended a NASCAR invocation with the words "in Allah's name we prey".But that's just it, I wouldn't be offended. I'd probably laugh out loud and think it was a very foolish prayer but I wouldn't be offended. I might be a little annoyed at having spent 30 sec. or a min. of my time listening to a worthless prayer but still not offended. Now, if the admonition "in Allah's name" were followed by an act of violence like a bomb going off in which innocent people were maimed or killed because "Allah told us to do it", then yes, that would offend me. But simply stating a belief in "Allah" or any other "god" isn't going to offend me in the least. After all, they're entitled to their beliefs too, foolish though they may be.

"in Allah's name we prey"
Was that a Freudian slip? Prey = plunder ; pray = call for help

Was that a Freudian slip? prey = plunder ; pray = call for helpYep - Freudian slip!

Was that a Freudian slip? prey = plunder ; pray = call for help



An award winning Freudian slip - hmmm.

Hello again, s:

You're ordinarily a pretty smart man... But, I guess when it comes to religious matters, you lose your mind.....

Why was I offended??????? For the same reason YOU would be if they ended a NASCAR invocation with the words "in Allah's name we prey".

excon

Prey, Love it. Points for our Jewish parolee. I got it. I'm a Christian , and understand completely that we shouldn't exclude, insult , or offend. Life is not easy when you've got big feet walking on eggshells. Especially when you've got one in your mouth, like I usually do.

What is so hard about being loving and accepting?

what is so hard about being loving and accepting?
Heck, we love and accept even EXCON!!

Lol there isn't anything wrong with excon :P

Any believing Christian will end a prayer "in Jesus' name" because a fundamental tenet of the Christian faith is that Jesus is the mediator between God and man (as in 'humanity.') But let me ask you this ; even if you don't believe in Jesus (perhaps in other than a strictly historical context), why would you be offended by the mention of his name? After all, if you truly don't believe, then it's not real and that's that and anyone who thinks it is is a poor deluded fool ; hardly worth taking offense at. Pity maybe, but not offense. After all, I don't believe in Santa Claus but I'm not offended by little children who do. And I don't get offended when I see people dressed in Santa costumes in department stores talking to children and posing for pictures with them. So why is it any different when it comes to religious matters?

I don't know why people get offended when Jesus name is used but they do. Maybe they realise that they don't have that relationship with Jesus and they feel excluded, rejected. You see Santa Claus doesn't require you do anything but believe in a myth, whilst Jesus, he wants you to change the way you live and stop believing in myths like Santa Claus. This is offensive to people who think they have it all together.

This is offensive to people who think they have it all together.Hello again, clete:

It's not about being better than you. It's about having a different religion, attending a public event, and being excluded. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. Unless, you too lose your mind when it comes to religious things.

Plus, you'll have to forgive me... but I don't believe that YOU particular Christians wouldn't be offended if you attended a public event and they invoked some other god than your own. Nahhh, you religious folks ain't that liberal...

You're not really going to tell me that crap, are you?? Come on, it's a sin to lie. IF you went to your city counsel meeting and they prayed to the pagen god of the wilderness, WE'D never hear the end of it. Who're you trying to kid?

excon

Mmm excon, I know I am completely open accepting and perfectly fine with being at an event and them praying to another god than mine. I simply pray to my god while they are praying to thiers :)

mmm excon, i know i am completely open accepting and perfectly fine with being at an event and them praying to another god than mine. i simply pray to my god while they are praying to thiers :)

Exactly

Hello again, clete:

It's not about being better than you. It's about having a different religion, attending a public event, and being excluded. I dunno what's so hard to understand about that. Unless, you too lose your mind when it comes to religious things.

Plus, you'll have to forgive me... but I don't believe that YOU particular Christians wouldn't be offended if you attended a public event and they invoked some other god than your own. Nahhh, you religious folks ain't that liberal...

You're not really gonna tell me that crap, are you??? Come on, it's a sin to lie. IF you went to your city counsel meeting and they prayed to the pagen god of the wilderness, WE'D never hear the end of it. Who're you trying to kid?

excon

Not kidding me either. Some people don't think that there EVEN is anything different than their own belief. And that those who do, pray for their "mis-guided" ways.

he wants you to change the way you liveYeah, but so does Santa Claus, right? You know, makin' a list, checkin' it twice, going to find out who's naughty and nice... lol.

Yeah, but so does Santa Claus, right? You know, makin' a list, checkin' it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice... lol.

Lmao, that is beautiful! I, personally, was subjected to the idea through my church when I was younger that santa claus worked with the church (hence- saint nick). Santa claus even came to my church- should that be considered blasphemy? Then you find out he's not real and then, naturally, you have to question the church and people in your life who told you this lie and wonder what else are they lying to me about.

mmm excon, i know i am completely open accepting and perfectly fine with being at an event and them praying to another god than mine. i simply pray to my god while they are praying to thiers :)I'm waiting for a touching prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

may his noodly appendage touch you

RAmen.

Dear spaghetti monster
You know I love you
Especially the garden marinara but on the thick side. All covered with meatballs I really do adore. Let the garlic bread be extra tasty and most of all grant me seconds.

Well done. :D 15 internet points for you :)

Hi guys,

I'd like to weigh in on this.

I understand where excon is coming from. I'm an Orthodox Jew, for those of you who didn't already know, so I have some similar thoughts as excon on this issue.

The question that has been asked here is why excon would be offended if a prayer was ended with "in Jesus' Name, Amen". And excon has tried, rather well, to explain why he feels the way he feels. I think he's done a good job of explaining the feeling of being left out.

But from my perspective, there's more to it than that.

To us, the very name of "Jesus" brings up thoughts of persecutions. After the death of Jesus, the Jews were persecuted terribly by Rome. In fact, this week (Thursday to be exact) is the anniversary of the destruction of the Great Temple by Rome, and the massacres that came along with it. Those persecutions under Rome lasted for centuries.

Then, beginning with the 2nd and 3rd Century CE, as the Christian Church grew in prominence, the name "Jesus" became symbolic of prosecutions by the Church and its members. Everything from the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Blood Libels, and various small and large pogroms came from the Christians yelling "Jesus killers" at us. In fact, the lie that we had killed Jesus was considered part of Church doctrine until only very recently.

Then there are the incidents throughout history of our children being taken from us by Christians and being converted to Christianity. Even today, groups like Jews for Jesus (which is really an arm of the Southern Baptist Church) still try to convert uneducated/unaffiliated Jews to Christianity by trying to convince them that beliefe in Jesus is somehow a part of the Jewish religion, when it is not. We Jews consider this to be an attack on Jewish souls... and such attacks have been very successful. We consider that an anthema to our religion. You may consider it "bringing that person closer to Jesus and G-d", but we consider it a deliberate attack on the souls of Jews.

In short, our history with Jesus and the invocation of Jesus' name is not a good one.

Is it any wonder that prayers to Jesus on in Jesus' name would make a Jew feel uncomfortable?

Should we feel that way? Perhaps not. But you can't discount that much history as an emotional motivator.

I'm not going to ask you guys to agree with our point of view on this. The point of view comes with a national history that most of you don't share with us. But I will ask you how you would feel if that WERE your point of view.

If you were a Jew, with all that history in your background, how would you feel about a Christian prayer? Would it make you uncomfortable? Would it make you feel left out?

Think about it.

Elliot

I agree and can understand that ETW.
I am Christian and I do not like religion, but I differentiate Jesus from the religions that invocation of Jesus' name because it is not a good one when it is in the name of Jesus and they are no better than the KKK.
They twist the name of Jesus to their own image and liking.
Personally I am FOR the Jew and NOT for the Rome that would do such things. To me they are blasphming your G-d as well as mine

My husband was also an Orthodox Jew - he took no offense at prayers in the name of Jesus. In fact, he had friends in a lot of other religions and neither one of us had a problem with praying with them, just not repeating what was not our belief.

He felt that if he was at an event that is primarily Christian (particularly born again) ending a prayer in the name of Jesus was what he was going to hear and that no one meant any direct offense to him. I regularly attended events at Temple with him and I simply did not repeat what I do not believe.

I believe it's a case of the majority - I have no idea what is done is Israel where (presumably) Jews are the majority. Does anyone know? Do non-Jews take offense?

I understand what is being said here but I think everyone (Jews/Christians/everyone else) has to be sensitive and considerate. If it's meant as a slur, fine, take offense; if not, the World is full of offenses, both innocent and intended.

My husband was also an Orthodox Jew - he took no offense at prayers in the name of Jesus. In fact, he had friends in a lot of other religions and neither one of us had a problem with praying with them, just not repeating what was not our belief.

He felt that if he was at an event that is primarily Christian (particularly born again) ending a prayer in the name of Jesus was what he was going to hear and that no one meant any direct offense to him. I regularly attended events at Temple with him and I simply did not repeat what I do not believe.

I believe it's a case of the majority - I have no idea what is done is Israel where (presumably) Jews are the majority. Does anyone know? Do non-Jews take offense?

I understand what is being said here but I think everyone (Jews/Christians/everyone else) has to be sensitive and considerate. If it's meant as a slur, fine, take offense; if not, the World is full of offenses, both innocent and intended.

I want to be very careful about this so that I can make myself clear.

I am NOT trying to advocate that anyone should change how they pray in my presence. That was not the purpose of my post. I have absolutely no problem with people praying in their own way, and Judy is right... majority rules.

My only purpose in this post was to try and explain WHY a Jew might feel uncomfortable about it. Not every Jew feels the same about it, nor am I saying that they should. My purpose was to put the feelings that excon was trying to articulate into an historical context that makes it easier to understand.

I am most certainly not trying to advocate that you SHOULD feel the same way, whether you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist or Agnostic. I was simply trying to explain why some might feel that way.

Elliot

I believe it's a case of the majority
My Lutheran minister dad used to tell us kids that, if we were in a group that prayed to a god who was not our God, just be respectful but don't participate. Unfortunately, that included not praying with the other Brownie Scouts in my troop and other Protestant denominations... but I WAS respectful.

I believe it's a case of the majority - I have no idea what is done is Israel where (presumably) Jews are the majority. Does anyone know? Do non-Jews take offense?


Let's put it this way:

For the period of 1947 - 1967, Arabs did not allow Jews to ascend the Temple Mount to pray at the Wailing Wall.

After 1967, once Israel was in control of the Wailing Wall, the Wall was opened up to public prayer by all religions. In 2000, the Al Aksa Intafada was started because Palestinians didn't like the fact that Ariel Sharon approached the Temple Mount and tried to stone the Jews praying there.

Between 1967 and 1995, Jews and Christians were permitted to pray at the Cave of the Patriarchs (Cave of Machpelah). In the 1995 Wye Accords, the area, which was part of the West Bank town of Hebron, was transferred to Palestinian control. Jews and Christians are no longer allowed to pray there, and the few attempts by jews to do so anyway have been met with violence.

The same story is repeated at the Tomb of Joseph and the Tomb of Rachel and the Tomb of Samuel the Prophet. Attempts by Jews to pray in these locations have been met with violence.

On the other hand, Jews have continued to maintain an open site for prayer by all religions at the Wailing Wall and at other religious sites under their control.

So, in answer to your question: What happens in Israel? If the Jews are in control of the area, peaceful prayer (even by Palestinian Muslims) is encouraged. If the area is under Arab Muslim control, the prayer by anyone other than a Muslim is met with violence.

The Middle East is not exactly the best place to look for examples of religious egalitarianism and co-existence.

Elliot

My Lutheran minister dad used to tell us kids that, if we were in a group that prayed to a god who was not our God, just be respectful but don't participate. Unfortunately, that included not praying with the other Brownie Scouts in my troop and other Protestant denominations...............but I WAS respectful.

Well said.

And my husband learned Christmas carols in elementary school, participated in Christmas pageants, did the Pledge of Allegance but when it came "under God" he did not actually say "God" because (he told me) that was not allowed. His parents explained that not everyone is the same, not everyone observes the same holidays. He was okay with it - and his kids (to a lesser extent because the schools now seem more aware) had the same experience.

He - and his parents - felt that he could participate (and his children could participate) without believing the carols and/or the pageants, sort of like a play about the Easter Bunny. It's make believe - and that's what he thought about the carols and pageants.

I don't know how you get away from things like this when the majority (sort of) rules.

And, no, "ET," I didn't take offense and didn't mean to indicate that I did. I just thought there were things that needed to be said.

Hello again, clete:

It's not about being better than you. It's about having a different religion, attending a public event, and being excluded. I dunno what's so hard to understand about that. Unless, you too lose your mind when it comes to religious things.

Plus, you'll have to forgive me... but I don't believe that YOU particular Christians wouldn't be offended if you attended a public event and they invoked some other god than your own. Nahhh, you religious folks ain't that liberal...

You're not really gonna tell me that crap, are you??? Come on, it's a sin to lie. IF you went to your city counsel meeting and they prayed to the pagen god of the wilderness, WE'D never hear the end of it. Who're you trying to kid?

excon

Ex I think your point of view comes from living in a closed society, you see I live in a place where things that I don't agree with are acknowledged all the time. Every time someone opens their mouth around here they prefix it by acknowledging the local aboriginal people without realising that what they are doing is acknowledging their spiritual beliefs and we have some dude dance around in a loin cloth smoking us like we need fumigating before we can set foot or speak in our own country and yet the same people would baulk if I used the name of Jesus. So praying to the pagan god of the wilderness, yes, we get that a lot round here and no one says a word.

You just don't know what liberal is, Your liberals are conservatives when you compare them with our socialists, our liberals are considered right wing and those good ole down home red neck boys, why they don't even get a look in

The Middle East is not exactly the best place to look for examples of religious egalitarianism and co-existence.

Elliot


My apologies - other than having been married to an Orthodox Jew and learning whatever he shared with me, I have (obviously) little or no knowledge about the subject.

Another reason to stay off the religious boards.

I apologize for my incorrect example - and I meant no harm or offensive. It is apparently easy to find offense when none is intended if that is your aim.

My apologies - other than having been married to an Orthodox Jew and learning whatever he shared with me, I have (obviously) little or no knowledge about the subject.

Another reason to stay off the religious boards.

I apologize for my incorrect example - and I meant no harm or offensive. It is apparently easy to find offense when none is intended if that is your aim.

No offense taken. I was just trying to answer your question in historical context.

Hello again, clete:

It's not about being better than you. It's about having a different religion, attending a public event, and being excluded. I dunno what's so hard to understand about that. Unless, you too lose your mind when it comes to religious things.


excon

Forgive me, Ex, I singled out your first paragraph because it is just so revealing!

We finally got you to admit that Atheism is a religion! Most Atheists are not so honest about that!

You are to be commended.:)

I didn't know Excon was an atheist I thought he was agnostic (besides Jewish) or something.

May I say something related to what Elliot posted?

I merely wish to point out that there are Christians, and there are others who use the name.

There certainly were times and places when those using the Name of Christ persecuted anyone who did not agree with them. But that behaviou is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus, the Christ.

In our own time, the Jews have no firmer allies than the Christian community.

I won't say we aren't praying that the Jews will recognize Jesus as their Messiah, because we are.

That is brought about because of Christian love. As the Apostle Paul said, we owe all men the debt of truth.

Hello gal:

I'm not gonna split hairs with you, gal. It may surprise you to learn that I am very much a Jew in all aspects of my life, except my religion... That might be hard to grasp for people who think Judaism is just a religion. It ain't.

But, I WILL cop to being an argument waiting to happen. Is that good enough?

excon

I thought so!!

Love it!! :)

But, I WILL cop to being an argument waiting to happen. Hello again, gal:

Did you know that being argumentative is a VERY Jewish trait? Just look at the Wolverine, for crying out loud. Anyway, that's why we make such good lawyers. That may even be why I'm so versed in the law. It's in my genes...

Yes, I know there's an affinity between Evangelicals and Jews. I know too, that a Christian who walks the walk, doesn't need to talk the talk. I know what's in your heart, gal.

excon

Hello again, gal:

Did you know that being argumentative is a VERY Jewish trait?

excon

Hmmmmmm?

May I say something related to what Elliot posted?

I merely wish to point out that there are Christians, and there are others who use the name.

There certainly were times and places when those using the Name of Christ persecuted anyone who did not agree with them. But that behaviou is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus, the Christ.

In our own time, the Jews have no firmer allies than the Christian community.

I won't say we aren't praying that the Jews will recognize Jesus as their Messiah, because we are.

That is brought about because of Christian love. As the Apostle Paul said, we owe all men the debt of truth.

I don't dispute any of this. I am only trying to relay what OUR EXPERIENCE has been.

From the point of view the one being persecuted, does it matter whether the person burning your house, raping your wife and daughter, and stealing your belongings is really a Christian or just calls himself a Christian? From out point of view, we were persecuted for nearly two millennia in the name of Christianity and the name of Jesus. FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE a prayer that ends "in Jesus' name" could be off-putting and could make a Jew feel left out. That's all I'm saying.

Elliot

Hmmmmmm?

excon's right about that one, gal.

excon's right about that one, gal.

And all this time I thought I was Irish!:D

I do understand what you are saying Elliot.

I expect there is no answer to the problem, if it IS a problem.

In anyone's prayer, a Deity is being addressed. For the Christian, that Deity is the same one that Jews pray to.

It's just that we accept what Jesus said about His being the only way to the Father. So for us, the name of Jesus is either spoken or implied.

That brings up the question of how can anyone know (otherwise) just what deity may be addressed? Is it a Buddhist prayer? A Pagan prayer?

The potential for offense is always present. When it comes to public prayer, we just either go along with it or ignore it.

It's not like we were in a place of worship dedicated to the God we honor.

PS: What is the proper way that a devout Jew addresses YAH? (Just so I'll know)

And all this time I thought I was Irish!:D

I do understand what you are saying Elliot.

I expect there is no answer to the problem, if it IS a problem.

In anyone's prayer, a Deity is being addressed. For the Christian, that Deity is the same one that Jews pray to.

It's just that we accept what Jesus said about His being the only way to the Father. So for us, the name of Jesus is either spoken or implied.

That brings up the question of how can anyone know (otherwise) just what deity may be addressed? Is it a Buddhist prayer? A Pagan prayer?

The potential for offense is always present. When it comes to public prayer, we just either go along with it or ignore it.

It's not like we were in a place of worship dedicated to the God we honor.

PS: What is the proper way that a devout Jew addresses YAH? (Just so I'll know)

"Hashem" is what we say when NOT in prayer. That is the common way of addressing or referring to G-d in Orthodox Judaism. It literally means "The Name", which refers to the fact that we are not supposed to name Him (take his name in vain) except in prayer or service to Him.

In prayer there are many different names used for Him, depending on what prayer is being said. Each of G-d's many names refers to an Aspect of his nature, and so different names are used when we are praying for him to invoke a particular aspect. For instance, if I were invoking his aspect of mercy, I would use the term "ado-nai" which is the term that refers to G-d's mercy. If I were asking for protection from enemies, I might use "elokai tzivakot" which means "Lord of Hosts" or "Master of Armies" or as I like to say "WarLord", which invokes the aspect of G-d that fights on our behalf.

But for your purposes, "Hashem" is the correct usage.

Elliot

It divides who you are praying to.

When they prayed to a "mother goddess" at a music event I walked out till the prayer was over.

If you are not christian, merely don't pray with a christian prayer.

I'm just slightly confused. Are you saying they were using a christian prayer when praying to their mother goddess?

I'm just slightly confused. are you saying they were using a christian prayer when praying to their mother goddess?

Sounds like they might have been referring to Mary, Chuck, no doubt many are confused about her status

Hi guys,

I'd like to weigh in on this.

I understand where excon is coming from. I'm an Orthodox Jew, for those of you who didn't already know, so I have some similar thoughts as excon on this issue.

The question that has been asked here is why excon would be offended if a prayer was ended with "in Jesus' Name, Amen". And excon has tried, rather well, to explain why he feels the way he feels. I think he's done a good job of explaining the feeling of being left out.

But from my perspective, there's more to it than that.

To us, the very name of "Jesus" brings up thoughts of persecutions. After the death of Jesus, the Jews were persecuted terribly by Rome. In fact, this week (Thursday to be exact) is the anniversary of the destruction of the Great Temple by Rome, and the massacres that came along with it. Those persecutions under Rome lasted for centuries.

Then, begining with the 2nd and 3rd Century CE, as the Christian Church grew in prominence, the name "Jesus" became symbolic of prosecutions by the Church and its members. Everything from the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Blood Libels, and various small and large pogroms came from the Christians yelling "Jesus killers" at us. In fact, the lie that we had killed Jesus was considered part of Church doctrine until only very recently.

Then there are the incidents throughout history of our children being taken from us by Christians and being converted to Christianity. Even today, groups like Jews for Jesus (which is really an arm of the Southern Baptist Church) still try to convert uneducated/unaffiliated Jews to Christianity by trying to convince them that beliefe in Jesus is somehow a part of the Jewish religion, when it is not. We Jews consider this to be an attack on Jewish souls... and such attacks have been very successful. We consider that an anthema to our religion. You may consider it "bringing that person closer to Jesus and G-d", but we consider it a deliberate attack on the souls of Jews.

In short, our history with Jesus and the invocation of Jesus' name is not a good one.

Is it any wonder that prayers to Jesus on in Jesus' name would make a Jew feel uncomfortable?

Should we feel that way? Perhaps not. But you can't discount that much history as an emotional motivator.

I'm not going to ask you guys to agree with our point of view on this. The point of view comes with a national history that most of you don't share with us. But I will ask you how you would feel if that WERE your point of view.

If you were a Jew, with all that history in your background, how would you feel about a Christian prayer? Would it make you uncomfortable? Would it make you feel left out?

Think about it.

Elliot

Thanks for explaining it from your [ and Ex's ? ] point of view.


Personally, I don't like praying in public, but that's just me .







G&P

No prayer is diminished by leaving out the name of Jesus. In fact, in a public gathering like a NASCAR race, I'm surprised Jesus' name is even brought up. Surely, there are people other than Christians watching the race. It is, at least, bad form and, at worst, insulting to non-Christians.

excon and ETWolverine -

I'm sympathetic to both of you because I have spoken with many Jews about this same topic and have grown in my appreciation for the struggles of Jews across the world. I understand that sometimes Jews are harassed by "Christians" and are targets for other anti-Semitic aggression.

Elliot, I do want to make a couple of points that I think are worth noting.

First, I totally agree that throughout history, Jews have often been the targets of "Christians." I use the term "Christian" because as one myself, it angers me when I read history and see that "Christians" were doing the kinds of things to Jews that they did. The reason being that anti-Semitism is something that the New Testament of the bible I read says is at odds with genuine faith. Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. Saul of Tarsus was a Jew. Peter and James and John were Jews. The teachings of the early Church were founded upon the Law and the Prophets and to purposely hate Jews was to go against Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. So, it puzzles me how people claiming to be Christians could purposely attack Jews. To me, I can only conclude one thing: that they were never Christians but were merely acting in the same spirit of Haman, in the book of Esther.

Corrie ten Boom was a Dutch Christian during the Holocaust. She risked her life to protect Jews from the Nazi SS. She fed kosher food to observant Jews and even honored the Jewish Sabbath with them. She hid Jews in a room that was built in her home from the Nazis. In 1944 the ten Booms were arrested by the Nazis and sent to Scheveningen prison in the Netherlands. Her father died 10 days later. Afterwards, the ten Booms were shuffled around and Corrie and her sister Betsie were sent to the Ravensbruck concentration camp in Germany, where Corrie's sister later died. If these people did not care for Jews, they would have never been sent to prison and Corrie's father and sister would not have died. But they died for their belief in the God of Israel and their love for Jews as God's chosen people. I would be willing to suffer a similar fate for a Jew because I believe that God's love is for Israel and I desire to be of the same mind with God, even if it means giving my life for it.

Corrie ten Boom was honored as Righteous Among the Nations by the State of Israel, so you know that Israel was appreciative of the sacrifices of people like her and her family. There are countless others who did the same who are also honored as Righteous Among the Nations.

It is understandable why you cringe at prayers invoking the name of Jesus because I know you equate the name Jesus with the persecution of Jews. But I say that it is easy to say I am a Christian. It is even easier to say I am a Christian and hate Jews when already have a disposition against them. In other words, if I already hate Jews, merely affiliating myself with a group or religion is really a formality... my hatred existed whether I was a Christian or not. Take the Palestinians for example. They believe in God (Allah) and hate your people to the point of blowing themselves up to kill Jews. So hatred is really irrespective of religion, I argue. There are non-religious people who hate Jews and religious people who hate Jews and what unites them is their hatred, not their religion, in my opinion.

True Christianity teaches to love my neighbor as myself... that includes Jews. Jesus was a Jew. I think his teaching was richly Jewish and supportive of Israel as a nation because he claimed to be the one who would bring the promises of Abraham to both the Jews and Gentiles, to accomplish what Saul said in Ephesians:

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."

What I mean by this is that for centuries, Jews and Gentiles have been at odds with each other... hostile. Saul taught that Jesus came to bring an end to that hostility by bringing together Jews and Gentiles, fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah where it is written:

Thus says God, the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it:
6 “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness;
I will take you by the hand and keep you;
I will give you as a covenant for the people,
A light for the nations,
7 to open the eyes that are blind,
To bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
From the prison those who sit in darkness.

However you take this (who the LORD is talking about), he clearly intended to bring light (wisdom and understanding) to the nations (goyim), to open their eyes to the ways of the LORD so that they might know him.

My overall point is that it is important to make a distinction between who you real enemies are and who you think your enemies are. A true disciple of Jesus Christ does not raise his hand against a Jew but embraces him as a brother.

Jakester,

Thanks for the comments. They are appreciated.

I do not mean to say that we are particularly worried that in the USA there is going to be someone or some group that is going to deliberately persecute us. Frankly, with the exception of a few fruits and nuts on the fringes (the KKK on the FAR right and the Muslim Brotherhood on the FAR left) this country has been very good to Jews.

The mechanism that I am explaining takes place at a very subconscious level. It's not that someone from the Jewish community is specifically saying that NASCAR fans are Jew-haters or anything like that. (In my experience, NASCAR fans are also some of the greatest supporters of Israel and the Jewish People in the world.)

No, it's much more subtle... it's a subconscious cringe that takes place when we are in the presence of those who happen to be invoking the name of Jesus in prayer. We generally know that no offense is intended, nor do we intend any offense toward them. It's just a "feeling" that we get.

I'm not saying that the Christians among us need to make any changes. I wouldn't want you to. I am just recognizing a cultural reaction on the part of Jews (excon's reaction is not an uncommon one among Jews of all backgrounds) and I'm trying to explain why it occurs. I am neither asking for change from anyone else nor expecting it.

Thanks for your feedback, Jake. It's appreciated.

Elliot

Jakester,

Thanks for the comments. They are appreciated.

I do not mean to say that we are particularly worried that in the USA there is going to be someone or some group that is going to deliberately persecute us. Frankly, with the exception of a few fruits and nuts on the fringes (the KKK on the FAR right and the Muslim Brotherhood on the FAR left) this country has been very good to Jews.

The mechanism that I am explaining takes place at a very subconscious level. It's not that someone from the Jewish community is specifically saying that NASCAR fans are Jew-haters or anything like that. (In my experience, NASCAR fans are also some of the greatest supporters of Israel and the Jewish People in the world.)

No, it's much more subtle... it's a subconscious cringe that takes place when we are in the presence of those who happen to be invoking the name of Jesus in prayer. We generally know that no offense is intended, nor do we intend any offense toward them. It's just a "feeling" that we get.

I'm not saying that the Christians among us need to make any changes. I wouldn't want you to. I am just recognizing a cultural reaction on the part of Jews (excon's reaction is not an uncommon one among Jews of all backgrounds) and I'm trying to explain why it occurs. I am neither asking for change from anyone else nor expecting it.

Thanks for your feedback, Jake. It's appreciated.

Elliot

I think that happens when anyone, from any religion, hears the god of another religion invoked. I'm not completely sure why. I was raised christian and I still get a knee-jerk attack of mild irritation, I guess is the best word for it, when I hear someone praying and they use jesus' name. I think it's just a reaction to something that is 'other' than you.

I'm sure christians have the same reaction when they hear someone praying to allah or buddha or zues. In fact, I have heard christians complain LOUDLY when they heard someone invoking anyone's name but jesus' in prayer, even if it was a private, personal prayer.

i think that happens when anyone, from any religion, hears the god of another religion invoked. I'm not completely sure why. i was raised christian and i still get a knee-jerk attack of mild irritation, i guess is the best word for it, when i hear someone praying and they use jesus' name. i think it's just a reaction to something that is 'other' than you.

I'm sure christians have the same reaction when they hear someone praying to allah or buddha or zues. in fact, i have heard christians complain LOUDLY when they heard someone invoking anyone's name but jesus' in prayer, even if it was a private, personal prayer.

You may be right that it happens among other people from other religions as well, but I can only comment from my own experience. I have tried very hard to understand my own reactions and the cultural reactions of my people. I am not in a position to comment on the reactions of Christians. I can only speak for myself.

Elliot

You may be right that it happens among other people from other religions as well, but I can only comment from my own experience. I have tried very hard to understand my own reactions and the cultural reactions of my people. I am not in a position to comment on the reactions of Christians. I can only speak for myself.

Elliot

I think it would take a trained and experienced sociologist several years of study to figure out. I think at least part of it is just a discomfort at hearing a god we don't believe in being worshiped. I just couldn't tell you WHY that is.

i think that happens when anyone, from any religion, hears the god of another religion invoked. Hello h:

That's just not so. I hear people praying and invoking Jesus all the time. It's NOT offensive at all. Nope. Elliot and I are talking about PUBLIC events, like the NASCAR race, or even a baseball game.

I'm happy people pray to their god - just not at PUBLIC events.

excon

Hello h:

That's just not so. I hear people praying and invoking Jesus all the time. It's NOT offensive at all. Nope. Elliot and I are talking about PUBLIC events, like the NASCAR race, or even a baseball game.

I'm happy people pray to their god - just not at PUBLIC events.

excon

OK. I was going from my personal experience. I don't go to public events that have prayers, or even watch them on TV, so I've never experienced that. I just don't like sports *shrugs*

John 14:13& 14 "And whatever you ask in my name, that I will do, that the Father
may be glorified in the Son. 14, "If you ask anything in My name, I will do.
Jesus speeking. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed
you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask in My name He may give you." Jesus speeking. Blessing,

Maggie 3

Hello M:

What the hell does that mean? Can you answer me in ENGLISH?? I don't like to get preached at.

excon

The only way we can be a child of God is knowing Jesus. The only way I can know Jesus
is reading Gods word the bible, and talking to Him in prayer. Jesus lived a life with-out sin and the only one that has. Jesus mirrored God exactly.
Jesus was not a cardboard cutout or an abstract list of theological attributes,
Jesus exhibited a full range of potent emotions and showed His love in both gentle and
tough ways. I am just stating facts, it is the truth about Jesus, why He came. I do not
want to offend you, it's just the way I see it as truth.
The only way a person can come to the Father {God} with out Jesus is to live a
completelly sinless life, in thought, word, and deed-- and no one but Jesus Himself
fits that profile. In other words we are all sinners but some of us are saved by the grace of God . In Jesus name we are saved and sanctified [forgive of sin].

Maggie 3

The only way we can be a child of God is knowing Jesus. The only way I can know Jesus
is reading Gods word the bible, and talking to Him in prayer. Jesus lived a life with-out sin and the only one that has. Jesus mirrored God exactly.
Jesus was not a cardboard cutout or an abstract list of theological attributes,
Jesus exhibited a full range of potent emotions and showed His love in both gentle and
tough ways. I am just stating facts, it is the truth about Jesus, why He came. I do not
want to offend you, it's just the way I see it as truth.
The only way a person can come to the Father {God} with out Jesus is to live a
completelly sinless life, in thought, word, and deed-- and no one but Jesus Himself
fits that profile. In other words we are all sinners but some of us are saved by the grace of God . In Jesus name we are saved and sanctified [forgive of sin].

Maggie 3



I have a couple of problems here -

First, this is on the religious discussions board, not the Christianity board, so all religions are posting here and don't people don't need you to lecture to them. Go to the Christianity board where that would be accepted and perhaps welcome.

Second, what is with the spacing that you (always) use. Is this cut and paste? If so, what is the source?

Third, I've read your other posts and find it hard to believe that these are your words: "Jesus was not a cardboard cutout or an abstract list of theological attributes, Jesus exhibited a full range of potent emotions and showed His love in both gentle and tough ways."

Fourth, don't presume to assume that because you believe something it is the truth. This is only your opinion: "I am just stating facts, it is the truth about Jesus, why He came."

Judy kay tee, My source is from the bible. I believe the bible as truth, This ia what
I quote. I know I am not a good typist or speller but I do my best.I do
Not know how
To cut and past, but I do write or quote what is written in my bible.

Maggie 3

I have a couple of problems here -

First, this is on the religious discussions board, not the Christianity board, so all religions are posting here and don't people don't need you to lecture to them. Go to the Christianity board where that would be accepted and perhaps welcome.



It is not up to you to direct the subject matter, Did you happen to notice the name of the thread. Obviously the content will contain a highly Christian point of view which was being solicited so if you don't want to hear a Christian perspective don't read the thread and above all don't about the content

It is not up to you to direct the subject matter, Did you happen to notice the name of the thread. Obviously the content will contain a highly Christian point of view which was being solicited so if you don't want to hear a Christian perspective don't read the thread and above all don't about the content



The question was, in fact, not posted by a Christian so there is no assumption that only Christian answers will be given.

I have no idea what "don't {blank space} about the content means" unless your Christian language had to be cleaned up by a moderator.

I'm not directing the subject matter - in fact, I don't know what that means. Are you saying I should attempt to direct the answers?

Last I heard everyone is entitled to contribute, no matter how stupid their answer - even you.

You have gone out of your way to be insulting" "Twinkie, go back to Twinking?" https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/ok-global-warming-skeptics-explain-390798-4.html#post1956392 How old are you, anyway?

You have gone out of your way to be insulting" " [How old are you, anyway?

If I had been insulting you would know it and I am old enough to discern the thrust of what you have posted. As I said; a Christian subject will attract Christian answers no matter that it is posted in a "religious" context, after all some Christians are the most religious people I know, and if you don't want a Christian perspective don't read it, and above all don't complain, surely you can comprehend what I am saying,:eek: or are you too high minded to understand simple English:D

I'm too high minded and well educated to understand simple English. I also understand how to punctuate a post, by the way.

Your answer to Twinkie was insulting.

And I don't see that this is a Christian subject. I see it as a religious subject.

I also understand how to punctuate a post, by the way.

.

I'm not religious about punctuation:D

excon and ETWolverine -



My overall point is that it is important to make a distinction between who you real enemies are and who you think your enemies are. A true disciple of Jesus Christ does not raise his hand against a Jew but embraces him as a brother.

Wow Jake, if I could give you a greenie on this one I would. I'd give you 10. You do the body of Christ proud! :)

Ex,

Christians are told to pray in Jesus name, that is why they do it. And like Wondergirl stated... MOST nascar races are in the biblebelt... so it isn't surprising.

Personally If I were asked to pray at a public event, I would pray in Jesus name. I wouldn't be politcally correct for ANYONE. ( shocking huh?) But most public prayers that I have heard end with Amen. I wouldn't expect a non Christian to pray any other way and I'm not offended when they don't say Jesus name. HOWEVER! I AM offended when someone claims to represent Christ as a Pastor or whataever and they don't use it... (I once heard a well known Christian Pastor on Oprah just say AMEN and I ranted and raved for days... lol ) I am NOT ashamed of Jesus or my faith in him and I suppose I expect fellow Christians to be the same way.
But I'm off topic and talking about me again. Sorry

ANYWAY, I understand how you feel though. I was at my sisters wedding reception and the Pastor prayed a lovely prayer in Jesus name before we ate. Then he introduced some guy who was going to be singing and playing the guitar. This guy bowed his head and asked us to pray right after the Christian prayer. I didn't think anything of it but then he clearly stated at the end it was to some pagan god!! Anyway I was shocked and like you I felt duped! And angry. But you can't control what people are going to say even in a CHRISTIAN church! And in my heart, I wasn't praying to something I didn't believe in.

Now you probably aren't going to like my next statement( and I am sure you were crazy about the last few)... I believe God hears every prayer! However, I don't believe he is under any obligation to answer it if it is not in in Son's name. He does many times though. Those are my personal thoughts... and I am not sure I could back it up with one bible verse. So don't freak out on me.

And one last thought... How in the world can you sit and watch nascar anyway?. I mean REALLY? Cars going around in a circle 500 times?? Boring. THIS is where you are going wrong. Stop watching it... you will be less angry. It makes me mad every time my boys watch it... so I KNOW! :)

Hello again, Tess:

Thanks for that... I actually don't watch nascar... Oh, I think I do, but I always fall asleep.

Ex

Wow Jake, if I could give you a greenie on this one I would. I'd give you 10. You do the body of Christ proud! :)

Thanks, Tess, you are too kind.

Hello again,

Watching the race... They DID it again... I think they should change it from Jesus of Nazareth to Jesus of Nascar...

excon

PS> I know. They ain't going to change for me... But, I ain't going to change either...

So, how's your Sunday going?

Excon, here's my question, as a fellow Jew:

Why do you need that acknowledgment from the folks at NASCAR?

Elliot