Today's gospel lesson.
Jaoh 2: 13. The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
14. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business.
15. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
16. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; you shall not make my Father's house a house of trade."
17. His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me."
18. The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?"
19. Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20. The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
21. But he spoke of the temple of his body.
22. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
23. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did;
24. But Jesus did not trust himself to them,
25. Because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
<+><+><+>
What is in man that Jesus Knew?
Pace and kindness,
Fred

Our hearts. Our character.

savedsinner7,
Thanks for your answer, but it is very brawd
Can you be a bit more specific, please?
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Today's gospel lesson.
Jaoh 2: 13. 24. but Jesus did not trust himself to them,
25. because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
<+><+><+>
What is in man that Jesus Knew?
Pace and kindness,
Fred


Jesus did not need anyone to tell Him about people, for He Knew everything about everyone around Him, for He is our creator. And He knows about you and I. And He knows it when we love Him and when we don’t; and He will watch out for us, all of our life and for all eternity.;);)

gromitt82,
Indeed so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82,
Indeed so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The older I grow, and I am what I could easily claim to be "rather" old, as you know, the easier I find to understand Jesus' message. I think it is mostly due to our tendency to complicate things that we feel like constantly trying to find new meanings to Jesus' words.

Jesus was fully aware of the cultural level of the majority of the people He was addressing His Message to. Consequently, He used the parables to give examples of what He meant that were easy to understand by the multitudes.

So if they could understand Jesus' words, why can't we?

Claude:):(

He knew the evil in their heart. Their unbelieving, deceitful, self-seeking hearts. We are all like this unless we let Jesus in to change our hearts.

savedsinner7,
Thank you.
Jesus also knows that generally good people can do bad things fir various reasons.
We are imperfect.
God, please help us all struggle to attain your perfection.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What is in man that Jesus Knew?
Pace and kindness,
Fred

Cain: eldest son of Adam and Eve and the first murderer having murdered his brother Abel

Cain's Tribe: Kenite = "smiths"

Kenite: the tribe from which the father-in-law of Moses was a member and which lived in the area between southern Palestine and the mountains of Sinai

I Corinthians 2:15 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Jabez: the head of a Calebite family, a town in Judah apparently near Bethlehem (Jabez was granted a blessing from God after he was said to have prayed for satan to bow and flee from him, yet also known as his mother's sorrow)

Tiranthites : "men of the gate" one of the 3 families of Kenite scribes living at Jabez

Shimeathites : "report" a family of scribes

Suchathities : "bush-men" a family of scribes at Jabez and descendants of Judah through Caleb

Hebrew defination of Scribes: enumerator, muster-officer, secretary, scribe; learned man, scribe

Greek defination of Scribes : a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder, whose office and influence differed in different states, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with the priests and elders of the people. A religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven

II Chronicles 34: 16 Also they were over the bearers of burdens, and were overseers of all that wrought the work in any manner of service: and of the Levites there were scribes, and officers, and porters.

I Chronicles 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and]Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Luke20:46-47 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

sndbay ,
That is interesting.
Thanks,
Fred

sndbay ,
That is interesting.
Thanks,
Fred

The Word says man fell asleep when this took place or do you think they just turned they heads?... Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Matthew 13:38-39 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

sndbay,
Point well made.
Fred

There is nothing in man that Jesus does not
Know.

Maggie 3

Thanks, Maggie 3.
Fred

There is nothing in man that Jesus does not
know.

Maggie 3

Jesus is GOD, and as such, not only there is nothing in man He does not know, but there is nothing in the Universe, past, present and future, that He does not know also.
God is eternal, everlasting. COnsequently, past, present and future must mean exactly the same for the concept of time cannot exist in eternity... :):)

gromitt82,
That is not only true it is also amazing.
It boggles the mind.
Fred

Today's gospel lesson.
Jaoh 2: 13. The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
14. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business.
15. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
16. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; you shall not make my Father's house a house of trade."
17. His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me."
18. The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?"
19. Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20. The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
21. But he spoke of the temple of his body.
22. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
23. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did;
24. but Jesus did not trust himself to them,
25. because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
<+><+><+>
What is in man that Jesus Knew?
Pace and kindness,
Fred


Fred - this is an interesting section of scripture to me... I have many thoughts about it that are of particular interest to me.

One interpretation of the opening section (that you quoted) is that Jesus's overturning of the tables and chasing out of the money changers is the beginning of the end for Jesus, if you will. The disciples reflect on a psalm of David in which the context is that David is proclaiming that in his pursuit of following God, it has brought strife into his life. David's thoughts are this: "God, my enemies are taking out their hatred of you on me. I am doing your will and those that hate you are now hating me." David's cry to God is, "God, please save me from my enemies who despise me because they despise you." Read Psalm 69 to get a better context.

At any rate, the disciples are making a connection to the life of David in observing what Jesus did in the Temple. They realized that by doing what he did in the Temple, it was inviting the wrath and hatred of the Jewish leaders. Similarly, David was hated and pursued by his enemies because of the stands he took for God. Jesus exhibited a greal deal of courage in standing up to the religious establishment in that fashion. He knew that his actions would not go unnoticed. Ultimately, his actions would lead to the calls for his crucifixion, as the Gospels all go on to chronicle. This event in the Temple set the ball in motion from that point forward.

Now, the question is about the language concerning bearing witness. The context again is following the situation in the Temple. The question regarding his actions was this: "what sign do you have to show us for doing this?" In other words, how can you prove that God is really on your side after coming in here and destroying our business like this... the tone of their question suggests that they are trying to figure out if Jesus had lost his mind because if he were anyone else, they may have already killed him. So they play with him by asking him for a sign. What does he say? He says, kill me and in three days I will raise this temple from the dead. Right there he challenges them and predicts his death all in one breath. But they didn't get what he was saying. He did fulfill his sign, though.

Lastly, the final point is the last section. Jesus has demonstrated his Messiahship through various miracles and works already. But the people have proven to be fickle in their commitments; much like Israel after they were led out of Egypt. God showed many miracles and performed many works in their midst, yet their hearts were hardened to these things and they refused to obey God. No matter how many times God demonstrated his authority and power, the people's hearts refused to believe. It was the same way with Jesus. Even though his testimony was true and from God, the witnesses of his miracles and works failed in their testimony of these miracles in that they refused to see them for what they were... from God. From God's perspective, he did not need man to testify of Christ's miracles because man was flawed. Which immediately brings the writer to the next point he was making: since man is incapable of being a reliable witness of the miracles of God due to the sinfulness of his own heart, it is proof in of itself that Jesus does not need to bear witness of man because man has already proven his own unreliability in seeing the truth for what it really is. Jesus does not need to give a discourse on man because man's own evil is readily apparent in his inability to rightly see and believe in what the Son of God was doing in his midst.

jakester,
Thank you for that thoughtful answer and I do agree.
But I do keep in mind that not all the people had hard hearts which were unmoved by Christ and His many miracles.
He had 12 apostles and many disciples who went out into the world doing as Jesus instructed.
The preached. Performed, miracles, and wrote the books that eventually became the bible and more.
As a result we have a world today with about 2 billion Christians and growing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

God showed many miracles and performed many works in their midst, yet their hearts were hardened to these things and they refused to obey God. No matter how many times God demonstrated his authority and power, the people's hearts refused to believe. It was the same way with Jesus. Even though his testimony was true and from God, the witnesses of his miracles and works failed in their testimony of these miracles in that they refused to see them for what they were...from God.

I agree with what you are saying here.. Yet I would remind us all that we have been told those in darkness do not see the light. It is a choice of belief in opening the door that Christ stands waiting to come in... We acknowledge that God knows the hearts, and the conviction of each heart of man's flesh... It is God that reveals and increases the truth within those that He wilt.

I Corinthians 2:10-11 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


From God's perspective, he did not need man to testify of Christ's miracles because man was flawed. .

This I would feel differently about because I feel God indeed used man in many ways. One example was the blind man from birth shown to be an ensample of one he would use as a servant in labor to show God's power. Many that saw believed...

(John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.)



As for man being flawed, I agree because none walk this earth in perfection without God who will anoint ... And without Christ as the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.
(I Peter 2:25) ( II Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God)



Which immediately brings the writer to the next point he was making: since man is incapable of being a reliable witness of the miracles of God due to the sinfulness of his own heart, it is proof in of itself that Jesus does not need to bear witness of man because man has already proven his own unreliability in seeing the truth for what it really is. Jesus does not need to give a discourse on man because man's own evil is readily apparent in his inability to rightly see and believe in what the Son of God was doing in his midst.

I would reference to the parable of the tares. There are those that are of darkness within the field of the world, and they will remain until the returning of Christ. The tares were planted by satan, and do follow satan's enticing word of temptation.

Jakester would you agree that we can not discount the ability of what God granted to those who remain in the light of Christ. Who in Christ walk as he ensampled, and have the promise of being anointed. That indeed they can still sin of the flesh, ( being weak as the disciples were) but in the spirit are one with Christ

jakester,
Thank you for that thoughtful answer and I do agree.
But I do keep in mind that not all the people had hard hearts which were unmoved by Christ and His many miracles.
He had 12 apostles and many disciples who went out into the world doing as Jesus instructed.

Agree




The preached. performed, miracles, and wrote the books that eventually became the bible and more.
As a result we have a world today with about 2 billion Christians and growing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


All done in obedience to what God wilt, as inspired by God, increased in truth and revealed unto them by God. To the glory of God forever .. Amen

Today's gospel lesson.
Jaoh 2: 13. The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
14. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business.
15. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
16. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; you shall not make my Father's house a house of trade."
17. His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me."
18. The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?"
19. Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20. The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
21. But he spoke of the temple of his body.
22. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
23. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did;
24. but Jesus did not trust himself to them,
25. because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
<+><+><+>
What is in man that Jesus Knew?
Pace and kindness,
Fred

The potential for great evil

gromitt82,
That is not only true it is also amazing.
It boggles the mind.
Fred

Fred,

Of course, it boogles the mind. But this is not to surprise us because GOD's infinite Glory and Power cannot even start to be understood by our insignificant minds. And yet, more often than not, we arrogantly try to judge GOD's designs and complain when they do not suit us; and we claim GOD has no compassion, does not grant our wishes, etc. etc.

It all sows that we are not only arrogant but also extremely stupid. The smallest child knows and realizes the extraordinary power of his/her smile when he/she stretches his/her arms to embrace his/her father...

We, who supposedly are grown up and intelligent people, not only do not stretch our arms to embrace our Father, but we often spit into Him or slap Him with our constant sins.

And on top of everything we are convinced of our salvation because we do not kill or steal...

Are we loonies or what? Can't understand it!

Claude

jakester,
Thank you for that thoughtful answer and I do agree.
But I do keep in mind that not all the people had hard hearts which were unmoved by Christ and His many miracles.
He had 12 apostles and many disciples who went out into the world doing as Jesus instructed.
The preached. performed, miracles, and wrote the books that eventually became the bible and more.
As a result we have a world today with about 2 billion Christians and growing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi Fred -

All I can say is that I was in no way implying that the narrative of this section of the scriptures you referenced was ultimately condemning all people because the very writer of the narrative was a believer (a contributor to God's story as you pointed out). Clearly, Jesus came to give his life for those who would follow him. So, I absolutely agree with you. I was only trying to exegete the point that the writer of the gospel narrative was making and that was that the human heart in a general sense is hard towards God. That seems to be the idea in view in the section you quoted in this post.

I suppose I could have made that point in my original post to avoid confusion but be sure that I absolutely believe that some do believe and worship Christ. But only those whose heart has been made right by the Spirit of God will believe that Jesus is the Christ and that his works are from God. This following quote from Ezekiel 26 (which is a promise God made to Israel) is thus the process that God works in all who hope in him:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."

Jakester,
Thanks much for your explanation.
Fred

[QUOTE=jakester;1626614]Hi Fred -

All I can say is that I was in no way implying that the narrative of this section of the scriptures you referenced was ultimately condemning all people because the very writer of the narrative was a believer (a contributor to God's story as you pointed out). Clearly, Jesus came to give his life for those who would follow him. So, I absolutely agree with you.

Allow me to interfere in your dialogue with our mutual friend Fred.

I just want to make a small clarification to something you say when pointing out that “Jesus came to give his life for those who would follow him”. This is not exactly true. Jesus came to redeem Mankind of its sins, and this involves everybody. And He gladly offered His Life for ALL of us.

The texts of the O.T. basically refer to the Chosen People, i.e. the Jews, but when the Father sent His Son it was to save all Mankind. God loves all of us whether sinners or not, just like a father loves his sons, whether good or bad. And God certainly must suffer when losing one of His sons to sin.

However, as God made us free to choose our own destiny, it is up to us to decide whether we want to fulfill the requisites to deserve our Salvation or not.

This is not exactly true. Jesus came to redeem Mankind of its sins, and this involves everybody. And He gladly offered His Life for ALL of us.


However, as God made us free to choose our own destiny, it is up to us to decide whether we want to fulfill the requisites to deserve our Salvation or not.

The entire subject matter of what Christ knew of man ..

And this would go back to the parable.. The world as the field, and the tares within the field that satan planted.

Romans 9 :13-14 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The entire subject matter of what Christ knew of man ..

And this would go back to the parable.. The world as the field, and the tares within the field that satan planted.

Romans 9 :13-14 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Thank you!

[QUOTE=jakester;1626614]Hi Fred -

all I can say is that I was in no way implying that the narrative of this section of the scriptures you referenced was ultimately condemning all people because the very writer of the narrative was a believer (a contributor to God's story as you pointed out). Clearly, Jesus came to give his life for those who would follow him. So, I absolutely agree with you.

Allow me to interfere in your dialogue with our mutual friend Fred.

I just want to make a small clarification to something you say when pointing out that “Jesus came to give his life for those who would follow him”. This is not exactly true. Jesus came to redeem Mankind of its sins, and this involves everybody. And He gladly offered His Life for ALL of us.

The texts of the O.T. basically refer to the Chosen People, i.e. the Jews, but when the Father sent His Son it was to save all Mankind. God loves all of us whether sinners or not, just like a father loves his sons, whether good or bad. And God certainly must suffer when losing one of His sons to sin.

However, as God made us free to choose our own destiny, it is up to us to decide whether we want to fulfill the requisites to deserve our Salvation or not.

Gromitt - I appreciate your take on this and I understand your reasoning because your assumption at the end of your comments clearly follows its logical end. But this is your interpretation and not mine. According to my view, Jesus did not come to die for everyone but for only those to whom the Father has given him.

You believe in the universal Fatherhood of God and that was the substance of your argument above—that is that God is the Father of all people but it's a matter of people's willingness to follow God. Claude, how do you make sense of the following quote from Jesus taken from John Ch 8:

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Claude, the very argument the Pharisees used was that "God was their father." But Jesus corrected them when he said "...If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here." "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires." If what you are saying is true, Claude, then I think we'd expect Jesus to be saying something similar to you, like: "you are not following God your Father because you are not following me." Jesus never gives them the impression that they are children of God but on the contrary, he rebukes them for the assumption that they are children of God. He even goes as far as saying that they are really children of the devil.

I'd like to hear your argument for the universal Fatherhood of God in light of what I just presented here.

Sincerely.

On post # 9 the fact that the scribes were indeed sons of satan, was confirmed by showing how the family known as the Kenites = the family of Cain, did manage to enter back into the tribes of Israel lives to cause further deception.

[QUOTE=gromitt82;1628007]

I'd like to hear your argument for the universal Fatherhood of God in light of what I just presented here.

Sincerely.

Thank you, Jakester, for your very interesting post.

In actual fact what I say is not my interpretation but that of the RCC.

I have extracted from a very interesting Catholic web the following Biblical fragments, conducive to explain why we believe Jesus came to save all Mankind. We also feel it makes sense bearing in mind God’s (thus Jesus’s) love for his own Creation and considering God’s inifinite mercy:

Quote:
Gen. 22:16–18 … “and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son ." [God accepted Abraham’s proceedings as an accomplished deed], I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." [Gen. 12:3 says: “and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

To this, the Apostle Paul adds this declaration:
Gal. 3:16 … “he promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[g] meaning one person, who is Christ.. ”
Expressing the same purpose of God — that all nations, all families of the earth shall be blessed in due time, the Apostle Paul declares that it is God’s express will to:

1 Tim. 2:4 … “… have all men [all people] to be saved.”
To establish this (God’s purpose regarding the human race, viz, regarding Adam and all his posterity), we are being told that:

1 John 4:14 … “The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world” (to be the Executor of all the aspects of God’s purposed Plan of Salvation for Adam and all his posterity).

Again, the Apostle Paul confirms this in these words:
Acts 13:47 … “I have set thee [Christ] to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.”

Jesus also said:
John 12:47 … “And if any man [any person] hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world [during the Gospel age], but to save the world [in due time; according to God’s time-table, according to God’s “times and seasons”].”
This is also corroborated in these words:

John 3:17 … “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world [during the Gospel age]; but that the world through him might be saved [in due time, as explained a little later].”

The saving of the world is explained further in these Scriptures:

Rom. 5:12 … “Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

Rom. 5:18 … “Therefore as by the offense of one [Adam] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the man Christ Jesus] the free gift came upon all men [shall come in due time] unto justification of life.”

1 Cor. 15:21–22 … “For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [the man Christ Jesus] came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive [in God’s due time].”

It is for this reason and in this context that Jesus said:

Matth. 18:11; Luke 19:10 … “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”
What was lost? What did he come to save? Well, of course, Adam lost his life, he lost his perfection, he lost his Creator’s favour, he lost everything the moment God pronounced his sentence: “For in the day that thou eatest thereof dying thou shalt die” (see margin of Gen. 2:17). Dying thou shalt die means, of course: a decaying process which was to affect Adam and all his posterity: physically, mentally, as well as morally. Also, since “one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2 Pet. 3:8; Ps. 90:4), Adam did begin to die at his condemnation for his disobedience, and his life ended completely when he was 930 years old, before the 1000-year “day” ended. It is all that which was lost by Adam’s disobedience to his Creator’s law, which the man

Christ Jesus came to save, by buying it back by his sacrificial death, for which reason we also read:

John 1:29 … “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
It should be noted how specific this Scripture is: it uses “sin” in singular — namely, Adam’s sin which, by extension, is the sin of the world. This is exactly the Apostle’s reasoning and explanation in Rom. 5:12,18, and 21, as already mentioned. It is also in harmony with all this that we read that the man Christ Jesus:

Heb. 2:9 … “… by the grace of God [in his plans and purposes; as a designed feature of his Plan of Salvation for Adam and all his posterity] should taste death for every man”, and thus:

1 Tim. 2:6 … “… gave himself a ransom for all.”
The word “ransom” means: a corresponding price, a price that corresponds exactly to that object to which it is applied, for the purpose of buying it back, which in this case is: a perfect human life. In harmony with this we read also:

1 John 2:2 … “And he is the propitiation for our sins [viz, the satisfaction for our sins, as first applicable to the true Church of Christ; then the Apostle continues] … but also for the sins of the whole world [the hereditary sins, as a consequence of Adam’s imperfection].”
All of these reasons and specifics are incorporated in the few words of one of the Gospel’s main pronouncements:

Luke 2:10–11 … “And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour [a life-giver], which is Christ the Lord.”

And when is all this applicable, as far as the whole world is concerned, as far as Adam and all his posterity is concerned? The Apostle Peter tells us:

Acts 3:19–21 … “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out [When?] when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord [after his second Advent]; and that he [God] may send the Christ [the glorified Jesus Christ at his second Advent], who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.”
It is then (at the beginning of “the times of restitution of all things”), when our Lord’s words become applicable:

John 5:28–29 … “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice [not literally, of course], and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life [viz, those who already have God’s approval up to “the times of restitution of all things”]; and they that have done evil [all the rest of mankind], unto the resurrection of judgment.”

The word “damnation”, as is usually found at the end of this verse, is incorrect; it is judgment, a judgment which will take in the time of God’s true Kingdom, when the “King of kings and Lord of lords” reigns, which is the same period designated as “the times of restitution of all things”, when our Lord’s words will become true:

Matth. 6:10 … “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.”
It is then indeed:

Is. 26:9 … “When thy judgments are [indeed] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [Adam and all his posterity] will learn righteousness.”

Because it is then, that he, God:
Acts 17:31 … “… hath appointed a day [the day], in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained [and who was “highly exalted” and “glorified”, because he “gave himself a ransom for all”]; whereof he [God] hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath [then, and because of it] raised him from the dead.”

It is then:
John 3:15–16 … “That whosoever believeth in him [in the reigning Christ during “the times of restitution of all things”] should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world [knowing the end from the beginning and thus looking forward to the completion of His Plan of Salvation for Adam and all his posterity], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him [then, during “the times of restitution of all things”; then, in God’s true Kingdom] should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
It is then also, that a number of other things develop and become a reality, for instance:

Rev. 21:4–5 … “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes [not literally, of course]; and there shall be no more death [Adamic death], neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”
And imagine these glorious conditions:

Is. 11:6–9 … “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain [in all my holy Kingdom]: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”

No one will be able to claim ignorance; all people of the earth shall then be made to understand all of God’s dealings with man: the permission of sin and, as a consequence, the experience with the results of sin; that Adam and all his posterity had to have these experiences until, according to God’s measure, the earth will have reached its fill with human population, involving more than 6000 years; and that then, by comparison, they will have the experience of “the times of restitution of all things”.

There are many more Scriptures like this, all describing the glorious conditions and developments during that age to come which will lead all the people of mankind to declare, by and by:

Is. 25:9 … “And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him [unconsciously, in the far corner of our heart, we have hoped for such a God], and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.”

But then will also be the time:

Phil. 2:10–11 … “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

An other main pronouncement for the Gospel age pertains to the “high”, “holy”, “heavenly” “CALLING”, for which “many are called”, but “few are chosen”, and even fewer remain “faithful unto death”, to become a member of the true Church of Christ; to become a member of the class referred to as “the bride of Christ”, a member of “the body of Christ”, which are his only and true sheep, which follow “his voice”, because they know not and follow not the voice of “a stranger”, but they will follow “the Lamb [Christ] whithersoever he goeth”. (John 10:1–15; Rev. 14:1–5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 3:1; Matth. 20:16; 22:14; Rev. 2:10; 3:21; Eph. 1:23; and many more).

These are also those who: “are baptized into his death”, who are not conformed to the world, but are “transformed” by the “renewing” of the spirit; those who “keep” his commandments and “abide in” him and his words (Rom. 6:3–6; 12:2; John 14:15; 15:7,10;); those who speak with “sound doctrines”, and showing doctrines of “uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity” (Titus 2:7).

It is rather very sad — to say the least — that so many Scriptures, which apply exclusively to the true Church of Christ: are being blatantly misapplied, misinterpreted, even modified, and thus are being misused within all so-called Christendom. Anyone who wants to be a true Christian, should take to heart these words of the Apostle Paul:
2 Tim. 2:15 … “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Also:
1 Thess. 5:21 … “Prove all things.”

Unquote:

I must say though that the above is not what the RCC considers a dogma of faith. Therefore, everybody is entitled to share this point of view or not.

Best regards

gromitt82,
I must agree with you.
Those who willfully sin again and again are not of the Father of all but of Satan when they do that.
Those who quit and repent of their ways become again the children of the Father of all who is God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

From the beginning shown by God, the love and hope that we hold will rest upon Christ. It is the greatness in fellowship found in Christian faith, and the establish ways we can follow in Christ by His fulfillment of The Word of God. In evidence of Christ doing the Will of His Father, we too much do the Will of God. We must do what is pleasing in God's eye, in obedience to the act in righteousness. Confess and repent our iniquity, and transgressions in all our sin unto God. Confess and turn from contempt and foolish ways. For Christ showed us the Way... Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32) Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9) Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11) Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)




Quote:
Gen. 22:16–18 … “and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son ." [God accepted Abraham's proceedings as an accomplished deed], I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." .


Gen 22:16-18 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)

all the nations = Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.



[Gen. 12:3 says: “and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

In both verse 2 and 3, God determined who, and shows mercy of those He wilt, and compassion on who He wilt. We find families blessed in their righteous and obedient work. Those who follow the will of God.

Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

From the beginning shown by God, the love and hope that we hold will rest upon Christ. It is the greatness in fellowship found in Christian faith, and the establish ways we can follow in Christ by His fulfillment of The Word of God. In evidence of Christ doing the Will of His Father, we too much do the Will of God. We must do what is pleasing in God's eye, in obedience to the act in righteousness. Confess and repent our iniquity, and transgressions in all our sin unto God. Confess and turn from contempt and foolish ways. For Christ showed us the Way... Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32) Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9) Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11) Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)




Gen 22:16-18 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)

all the nations = Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.



Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

In both verse 2 and 3, God determined who, and shows mercy of those He wilt, and compassion on who He wilt. We find families blessed in their righteous and obedient work. Those who follow the will of God.

Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Sandbay, this is exactly how I see it as well. Paul agrees and makes the same argument even more profoundly in Romans 9:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Claude, no disrespect, but thus far you have only quoted the RCC's position on the issues we have been talking about. Do you have your own position on Romans 9 and on the section I quoted in my last post? I'd be interested in hearing your own thoughts on Romans 9 and on the particular section I quoted in my last post.

sndbay View Post
From the beginning shown by God, the love and hope that we hold will rest upon Christ. It is the greatness in fellowship found in Christian faith, and the establish ways we can follow in Christ by His fulfillment of The Word of God. In evidence of Christ doing the Will of His Father, we too much do the Will of God. We must do what is pleasing in God's eye, in obedience to the act in righteousness. Confess and repent our iniquity, and transgressions in all our sin unto God. Confess and turn from contempt and foolish ways. For Christ showed us the Way... Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32) Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9) Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11) Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)

I so do and have confessed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The disciples would not been able to remember"Zeal for You house has eaten
Me up " (Ps69:9) if they were not already familier with it. For God to use His Word to encourage and instruct us, we have to spend time in it, and believing it. When
Jesus was risen from the dead, His disciiples remembered that He had said this
To them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
We ofen hesitate to spend time in God"s Word because we don"t feel as though
We're getting anyhing out of it. But often a text that does not "click" in our minds until
Some time latter. Jesus was grieved and upset because the money changers were
Obsessed and eager to make money doing business and not having respect for tne
Temple.The money changers were totally into carnality and temporal things and
Had no need for Him and His salvation.Jesus could see this in them and He can
See what things tempt us and what we give into that can lead us away from Him.
"Incline your ear, and come unto Me: hear, and your soul shall live." Is. 55:3
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding"
Proverbs 3:5 "In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved
us. For I am persuaded , that neither death, nor angels nor principalities, nor powers,
nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,
shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:37-39

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Maggie
Thanks much.
Fred

The disciples would not been able to remember"Zeal for You house has eaten Me up "
Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Maggie,

After reading what you had posted, what comes to my mind was what Jesus said concerning the temple... And we understand He was speaking of Himself being that Temple.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

What scripture is saying in the previous verses, is how Jesus reacted to what was taking place within the temple.. (Within Him)

This would be an example of how our own bodies as temples for the Holy Spirit should remain obedient in Christ today... Doing as Christ shows us to swipe things out that shouldn't be there.

Instead man reacts to satan's temptation of "The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up."

The difference is that Christ was the temple present in the flesh, and God dwelled within him, and He within God.

Today we are the temples, and the Holy Spirit dwells within us, and we in Christ.

I Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

`in Christ


Compassion in obedience...

I Corinthians 6:19 What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

sndbay,
Yes many of us are temples of the Holy Spirit and we do belong to God.
Thus we should conduct our lives with that knowledge always with us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Sndbay , thank you and I totally agree. I love the Lord so much, He is so good to us
And I pray some day I will hear Him say well done my good and faithful servant.
His love is so powerful and wonderful it keeps me motivated day and night and in the good and not so good times. The 6th of feb. I was in a very bad carwreck and had a
Chest injury, from the seat belt, and the pain was so severe I could hardy move for
Over 3 weeks. The pain medicine did very little good. I am getting better now but it has
Taken a long time. I would like you to pray for me. I am telling you this because
I want to say how the Lord's presence came and gave me such peace while in so
Much pain. This is not over but I know God is in control and He knows what is going on.
This is what gives us peace, knowing God is always in control. And of course Romans
8:28.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Maggie,
I'm upset to hear that you were so injured in a car wreck and that you continue to hurt.
I know what that kind of hurt is for I have a bad back the hurts ever since I was in the hospital for a month flat on my back,
Sometime the pain pills work well and others they do not.
I pray to the Lord our God that He sustains you, helps you, and heals your pain.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Sndbay , thank you and I totally agree. I love the Lord so much, He is so good to us
and I pray some day I will hear Him say well done my good and faithful servant.

Maggie.. Yes we are bought with a price, and set free from being a slave to sin.. Now being His servant to do righteousness unto His will. Love and trust in Him, He knows who follows in belief, and who are good servants. (Romans 8:28.)




His love is so powerful and wonderful it keeps me motivated day and night and in the good and not so good times. The 6th of feb. I was in a very bad carwreck and had a
chest injury, from the seat belt, and the pain was so severe I could hardy move for
over 3 weeks. The pain medicine did very little good. I am getting better now but it has
taken a long time. I would like you to pray for me. I am telling you this because
I want to say how the Lord's presence came and gave me such peace while in so
much pain. This is not over but I know God is in control and He knows what is going on.
This is what gives us peace, knowing God is always in control. And of course Romans
8:28.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

God will bring His children together in aid to those who are in sorrow, and do suffer. I share with you in pain because I have lived through body injury, an avulsion fracture that left me unable to walk and in pain. And too, I have suffered emotional pain from a car accident which took the life of an individual. Both have drawn me closer to God in understanding His control, and the need for us to rest in Him. Look upon and hear the message of God within you. It is the path in life here on earth and your own fulfillment in righteousness..

God is with you, and loves you. Rejoice... the flesh of this world brings pain, but the heart of love for God brings comfort and joy. (Psalms 119:76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

~ in Christ

Thank you Fred, I praise the Lord for His
Love and strength.Sorry to here about your
Pain, we will have new bodies one day and
Have no more pain and be rejoicing with Jesus.
Love and Blessings, Maggie

Thank you Sndbay for your kind words. I am so thankful for all you faithfull servants for
God.Looking forward to seeing your posts
And all the others here on ask.me.
Love and Blessings Maggie

Yes there are some very nice, good folks here who support and pray for each other.
It is the best board of this type that I have been on over all the years on being on several
Fred

Sndbay , thank you and I totally agree. I love the Lord so much, He is so good to us
and I pray some day I will hear Him say well done my good and faithful servant.
His love is so powerful and wonderful it keeps me motivated day and night and in the good and not so good times. The 6th of feb. I was in a very bad carwreck and had a
chest injury, from the seat belt, and the pain was so severe I could hardy move for
over 3 weeks. The pain medicine did very little good. I am getting better now but it has
taken a long time. I would like you to pray for me. I am telling you this because
I want to say how the Lord's presence came and gave me such peace while in so
much pain. This is not over but I know God is in control and He knows what is going on.
This is what gives us peace, knowing God is always in control. And of course Romans
8:28.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

I just found out that you were injured in a car accident. I join my prayers to those from our friend Arcura and wish you a prompt recovery.
Best regards

Today's gospel lesson...
<+><+><+>
What is in man that Jesus Knew?

Sin.


Pace and kindness,
Fred

And to you Fred.