I believe He was raised again for our justification. I believe I am justified. Or you could say it as just as if I’d never sinned. I know many do not share my belief. And many think Christians are supposed to be perfect all the time. The Bible, the Word of God, does say ‘be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect’, but that was not telling us that our actions must always be perfect. If we could be perfect according to the world’s idea of the word, we would not have needed Jesus to die for us and to continually make intercessions for us.


When the truth gets to close to home, some people just run and hide, or in one case close the thread. If you cannot handle the truth, answer the hard questions, or take a defeat gracefully, then your only option left is to hide your face in:o.

To say someone is asinine is not calling someone a name, it an adjective, a descriptive word for those who talk foolishly, use repetitive statement and contradict themselves. It includes those who will twist another person’s words and make fun of someone’s spelling instead of answering the post with an intelligent response. It includes someone who avoids hard questions by making excuses, using childish tactics to ignore the post altogether. A name is a noun; a noun is the name of a person, place or thing. Charles, house, Georgia...





If one cannot take defeat gracefully, then one should not begin a battle of words, or come to an intelligent debate unarmed.


Is there only one truth? Everyone is different, with different ideas, opinions, beliefs and views. That is what makes us each unique. God likes an assortment of people, animals and trees. If we are not allowed to express ourselves according to our own personalities then what is the point of these board?


I know some take these things quite seriously, while others like to have a bit of fun. I suppose the staunch personalities cannot accept the feisty ones or appreciate their sense of humor. However, is that a reason to ignore them? I was under the impression that this was place to share opinions, debate and learn from each other.



Part of the motive for coming to these boards, at least for some, is to have some fun, get to know others who share similar opinions and debate and tease those who do not.



This is just my opinion, but to close a thread in the face of complete and total defeat is cowardly and childish. However, if anyone has a different opinion, please feel free to share.

One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God.

If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?

Some of those threads do get too ridiculously repetitious. What is the point in keeping them open when they are going no where but circles? Anyway they start all over in the next thread anyway.
I will point out double standards and cop outs when I do see them if people want to see that as being mean so be it.

When you point out the obvious to someone and it makes him or her mad, it only goes to show how immature they are. Some things cannot be proven; it is a matter of faith. If you believe or if you have unbelief, both are faith.

The thing is one day, we will all know for sure, if they are right no problem, if we are right there will be Hell to pay.

Time is on our side, and I believe time is getting short. I hope they can see the 'truth' before it is too late.

Don't know the history here but the d!ck waving is clear and up front... "defeat" being the word that stands out over and over...

Ungh... do I agree with your subject line? Sure, and then some. When my aunt, catholic, left by her husband many years ago, cannot accept the eucharist... or my mother, left by her cheating husband, does the same... I wonder what good the words "Lord, I am not worthy to accept thee, but only say the Word and I shall be healed" mean...

Point is... the truth is this is a public forum that encourages polite discourse, but threads will be closed from time to time when it gets ugly and not in the best interest of the site.

So... get over it. Religious discussions are volatile and often its better to close threads than to let them run rampant. You can disagree... that's fine. Fine another forum.

This site isn't about censorship or about unchecked opinions.

You get to use their resources and bandwidth until its no longer deemed appropriate for the site. If you disagree, you can leave this site or pony up the cash to start your own.

Don't come and bash the owners for trying to keep some middle ground... its generally good business. Get over it or move on. But you don't get to stay and whine.

I believe He was raised again for our justification. I believe I am justified.
That is indeed your right to believe...


... The Bible, the Word of God....
That is what you believe, not a fact !


When the truth gets to close to home, some people just run and hide, or in one case close the thread.
Babble, unless you specify what "truth" you refer to !


To say someone is asinine is not calling someone a name, it an adjective, a descriptive word for those who talk foolishly, use repetitive statement and contradict themselves. It includes those who will twist another person’s words ...
That includes you too, I note!!


If one cannot take defeat gracefully, then one should not begin a battle of words, or come to an intelligent debate unarmed.
But if you know that, why do you keep doing just that?


... God likes an assortment of people, animals and trees.
That is what you believe, not a fact !


This is just my opinion, but to close a thread in the face of complete and total defeat is cowardly and childish. However, if anyone has a different opinion, please feel free to share.
Can you please state to whom you refer here? WHO closed WHAT thread ?


One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God.[
That is what you believe, not a fact !


... if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?
Good question. What do YOU suggest ?
I suggest not to (religiously) believe at all !

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

That is indeed your right to believe...


That is what you believe, not a fact ! :eek:


That is what you believe, not a fact ! :eek:


That is what you believe, not a fact ! :eek:


That is what you believe, not a fact ! :eek:

(Sounds like a broken radio :rolleyes: )



Cred we know these are Beliefs, in the same way you believe in a Big Bang and that the Amoeba is your distant ancestor.(we know this what believe even though you deny it) We do not claim these to be facts. We believe it to be TRUTH. So save yourself the energy because no one here has claimed fact except YOU. So we don't need you to tell us over and over and over and over and over again, something we already know. You just keep repeating yourself and you are starting to sound like a scratched CD. If anyone needs to be reminded of their beliefs its you.

Do I need to remind you of this... :D


Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Of course I have beliefs.

I was under the impression that he died for everyone?

The good, the bad, and the ugly.

I really don't think he had anyone specific in mind, Godly or Un-Godly.

One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God.yea, I don't think so.

dont know the history here but the d!ck waving is clear and up front... "defeat" being the word that stands out over and over...

ungh... do i agree with your subject line? sure, and then some. when my aunt, catholic, left by her husband many years ago, cannot accept the eucharist... or my mother, left by her cheating husband, does the same... i wonder what good the words "Lord, I am not worthy to accept thee, but only say the Word and I shall be healed" mean...

point is... the truth is this is a public forum that encourages polite discourse, but threads will be closed from time to time when it gets ugly and not in the best interest of the site.

so.... get over it. religious discussions are volatile and often its better to close threads than to let them run rampant. you can disagree... thats fine. fine another forum.

this site isnt about censorship or about unchecked opinions.

you get to use their resources and bandwidth until its no longer deemed appropriate for the site. if you disagree, you can leave this site or pony up the cash to start your own.

dont come and bash the owners for trying to keep some middle ground... its generally good business. get over it or move on. but you dont get to stay and whine.

I was not bashing the owners of the site... a particular person... I assumed he closed the site... perhaps I was wrong... I have been wrong before and most likely will be again. I do agree with you about the whining part... that is not what I was doing... I was expressing my opinion... isn't that what you said this was for?

Yes, religious discussions are volatile, and in my opinion futile, but the battle started when someone asked about faith and how one could be so confidence of what they believe. Many were trying to explain…but all the answer we got back was that is what you believe. Well, what else could we be telling him?

However, others came to the site not to answer the original question, but to bash the ones who were trying to help. It did get rather volatile. With certain people making fun of other’s spelling and such, saying nothing of importance or in reference to the post.

The young man wanted a reason to believe again, he did at one time, he wanted examples, but he asked for proof. There is no proof; it is only by faith. Faith can’t be explained only experienced and that by choice.

I'm over it, but as you can see by the post below yours others arenot yet over it, and bringing it to this site. If the owners want to close this one, I would not mind and I could completely understand why they would.

Thanks for you comment I don't quite understand your first line however. The defeat mentioned was a certain person constantly for months perhaps years saying he has no beliefs and finally admitting that he did.

To other ones of us that was his defeat...our responses, which probably did seem mean or even hateful..was actually frivolous and flippant jesting. Some people take these posts much too seriously. They wear their feelings on their sleeves.

The written word cannot always express the actually emotion of its intent. Therefore, it may come across as harsh, when it was only intended to be a jab.

I suppose I should use more restraint in my language and less jesting, since my sense of humor seems course and unrefined in the written word, however, it is accepted with explosions of laughter in person. I do not understand how there could be such a huge difference, but apparently, the tone of voice has a great deal to do with knowing a joke from a critical remark.

I will try to use kinder words, be genteel, and write with more care and sensitivity so as not to hurt anyone tender feelings.



Wado

The defeat mentioned was a certain person constantly for months perhaps years saying he has no beliefs and finally admitting that he did.
It seems that you have a need to be perceived as having beat someone at something. I saw no admission like you said that contradicted his original views. I don't get this. There was no 'defeat' and by using that term it sets up an antagonistic forum - us versus them battle. That shouldn't be the case.

That is indeed your right to believe ....


That is what you believe, not a fact !


Babble, unless you specify what "truth" you refer to !


That includes you too, I note !!!


But if you know that, why do you keep doing just that ? ? ?


That is what you believe, not a fact !


Can you please state to whom you refer here? WHO closed WHAT thread ?


That is what you believe, not a fact !


Good question. What do YOU suggest ?
I suggest not to (religiously) believe at all !

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

Osiyo Cred,

do hi tsu "How are you today?"

I hope all is well with you.

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings or if any of my remarks seemed harsh or unkind. I ask you to forgive me and I hope we can be civil to each other.

Yes, those are my beliefs... I said so... and you have your beliefs... you said so.

You suggest we not have any religious beliefs, for once, we agree. I do not have religious beliefs, I think I mentioned that before... I have relationship beliefs. I will not bother trying to explain the difference to you, again. It does not really matter if you understand it or not.

I suggest that we accept that we have different beliefs and let it go at that. Will you agree?

I do hope so,

Peace and love,
Tsila

I was under the impression that he died for everyone?

The good, the bad, and the ugly.

I really don't think he had anyone specific in mind, Godly or Un-Godly.

Well, of course He did, who said He didn’t? He had everyone on His mind, He died for everyone who has ever lived and for everyone who will live; He had each one of us in mind while He was on the cross.

If you want to make a big deal about the word ungodly... I was quoting the Word of God, which says 'there is none godly, no not one... " and “Christ died for the ungodly….”

That is why He came to die for the ungodly, which includes everyone; the good, the bad and the ugly.

Which one are you? :) (Just to clarify: this is a joke, not a challenge to battle or mean hateful remark)

T

yea, I don't think so.

I hope all is well with you, dear.

Your unbelief will not stop it. However, you are allowed your unbelief, and I am allowed my belief. The right to express it is also mine.


So I believe every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God.

That is what I believe.

I am not asking you to believe it, just putting it out there, spreading the Word. You decide what you want to believe and I will agree that you have the God given right to believe it.

He said; I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;”

He infers that you also have the right to chose death and cursing. Death does not mean to die, but the spirit of death, which brings the curse.

Only time will tell; then debates will cease, and all will eventually have to agree there is only one truth.


Be blessed, goodness and mercy upon thee, peace and love upon your house.

Tsila

He infers that you also have the right to chose death and cursing. Who willfully chooses death and cursing? Have you? I haven't. I believe that religion is a personal matter. No one should be coming to my house trying to convert me, that's wrong and an invasion of privacy.

It seems that you have a need to be perceived as having beat someone at something. I saw no admission like you said that contradicted his original views. I don't get this. There was no 'defeat' and by using that term it sets up an antagonistic forum - us versus them battle. That shouldn't be the case.

As I said in another post, I often come off as being harsh, I am trying to be more mellow, and speak softly to everyone now so as not to hurt anyone’s feelings.

The defeat referred to here, was not my victory... but the fact that Cred finally admitted that he does have beliefs after years of saying he had none. I was simply being jovial with a pal who finally got him to admit he does indeed have beliefs. I did not beat him; she did get him to contradict himself.

Perhaps defeat was a harsh, even inappropriate word, I am sorry. I will try to kinder words in the future.

However, I have felt antagonism from you and others from the time I first said a word here. It does seem as if there are ‘us versus them’ but I did not start it. That battle had been going on for quite some time. I only just found this board some weeks ago.

Cred has declared repeatedly that he has no beliefs, and then he stared emphatically that he does ‘of course I have beliefs’. How is that not contradicting himself?

As for the ‘us versus them’ why is it that you are always defending Cred against everyone who disagrees with him. To me that feels like the two of you, are taking sides even when the post was not directed at you. I have not noticed him defending you; perhaps I just overlooked it. It does seem strange to me that you feel the need to defend Cred, or take his side.

Why is that?

Peace and love

T

Yeah I went around and around with him on believe/accept vs believe IN and he persisted in making the believe an argument as well as many other points.
Okay you want to call all Americans gringo fine but why argue that it is not also meant as a derogatory term whether you meant it that way or not accept us telling you it can be taken that way.
I agree making it a us against them is not the issue but the fact that Believers are badgered for not using proper words, spelling errors and typos and other cop outs like ''go back to the subject'' when he gets frustrated that he can no longer deny that we got our point across. I am sorry but I can not stand double standards and that is all that these tactics amount to mostly so I do and will continue to point them out!

A It does seem strange to me that you feel the need to defend Cred, or take his side.

Why is that?

I'm not defending him or taking his side, I point out inaccuracies or double standards as NoHelp pointed out.

This is a discussion board, people answer/comment on any post they wish to, that's by design, that's why there is no threaded/nesting setup here. If you are uncomfortable with that thee isn't much I can do.

About that 'beliefs' point you try to make: the christians use the word belief in their own way meaning belief in their god, but the word is more generic than that isn't it? I believe the sun will come up tomorrow, I believe in my kids, I believe that I'll have a beer tonight. I have beliefs.

Exactly the point I tried to get across to Cred.
Maybe I finally sunk it in after all these years since he finally said he does believe some things to sassy.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/evolution-origin-universe-religion-236939-2.html#post1148394 #16 on

People are just tired of his word games.

Everybody believes in something, could be they believe in the comfort of a good hooker or that water tastes good.

Of course if you specify an area like religion or beliefs in gos then could very well say that they don't believe in them. In the same vein that one may not believe that the Cubs will win the world series.

When I talk to Cred I specify setting aside religion, and things like that so that he can not lump it all together but he still manages to mix it all together to 'win'

[quote=NeedKarma]Who willfully chooses death and cursing? Have you? I haven't. I believe that religion is a personal matter. No one should be coming to my house trying to convert me, that's wrong and an invasion of privacy.[/quo

He set before us two choices, life or death. Everyone has to choose, if you believe it or not. If you do not chose life, then you automatically chose death. This is what the Word says this is what I believe. You can believe what you like.



I can see nowhere in any of my posts where I said anything at all about coming to your house trying to convert you. If you can show me where I did write that, please do so. I said blessings upon your house, or something like that, but I do not intend to come to your house, dear. I do not intend to try to convert you on here either.

I have told you, this is what I believe, and you believe what you choose to believe. Can’t we just agree to disagree?

I do not even know what you believe. I just know that what ever I believe you choose to disagree. Or so it seems.

I would even venture to say you seem argumentative toward me no matter what I say, and even on things I do not say, but that might sound to harsh.

Blessing upon your house, that mean I want you to have a happy home, not that I am planning an invasion of Bible thumpers. That was a bit of humor. If you do not think it is funny just ignore it. No matter.


T

So we both chose life, cool. :)

I'm not defending him or taking his side, I point out inaccuracies or double standards as NoHelp pointed out.

This is a discussion board, people answer/comment on any post they wish to, that's by design, that's why there is no threaded/nesting setup here. If you are uncomfortable with that thee isn't much I can do.

About that 'beliefs' point you try to make: the christians use the word belief in their own way meaning belief in their god, but the word is more generic than that isn't it? I believe the sun will come up tomorrow, I believe in my kids, I believe that I'll have a beer tonight. I have beliefs.



I am sure you do not intent it this way, but your words are coming across as very harsh and almost hateful toward me personally.

I assume you did not think my joke was funny, and you could not find where I had written that I was coming to your house. So, let us just move past all that.

Of course, this is a discussion board and that was not my point. But if you will look back at some of your one-liners to me; they were not pointing out inaccuracies…they were just rude and they hurt my feelings and almost drove me near to tears.

Belief and believe do mean different things to different people. But when Christians speak of their beliefs, yes, dear, they are talking of their God. We were not saying that Cred admitted he believes in God. Only that he has beliefs, which he had been denying to any of, for several years. I believe I will have another cup of coffee. See, I understand what you are saying. I wish you could understand what I was saying.

I would like to make a suggestion, and I hope you take it with the kindness and sincerity in which it is intended. Please read the posts carefully, and perhaps reread them, so that others and I will not have to repeat ourselves so much.

Peace and love,
Tsila

So we both chose life, cool. :)

Way cool:)

I am sure you do not intent it this way, but your words are coming across as very harsh and almost hateful toward me personally.Show me where I have done that. :confused:

yeah I went around and around with him on believe/accept vs believe IN and he persisted in making the believe an argument as well as many other points.
Okay you want to call all Americans gringo fine but why argue that it is not also meant as a derogatory term whether you meant it that way or not accept us telling you it can be taken that way.
I agree making it a us against them is not the issue but the fact that Believers are badgered for not using proper words, spelling errors and typos and other cop outs like ''go back to the subject'' when he gets frustrated that he can no longer deny that we got our point across. I am sorry but I can not stand double standards and that is all that these tactics amount to mostly so I do and will continue to point them out!



So true. It is discussions board not a spelling bee or grammar class. If one cannot come up with a proper and respectful post then they should refrain from posting. Sinking down to a level of correcting someone’s spelling/grammar or repeating themselves over and over and over…Example: That is indeed your right to believe That is what you believe, not a fact ! Babble, unless you specify what "truth" you refer to ! That includes you too, I note !!! But if you know that, why do you keep doing just that ? ? ? That is what you believe, not a fact !. because they have nothing more intelligent to say is a waste of this privilege.

Peace and love
T

Show me where I have done that. :confused:

The defeat mentioned was a certain person constantly for months perhaps years saying he has no beliefs and finally admitting that he did.

It seems that you have a need to be perceived as having beat someone at something. I saw no admission like you said that contradicted his original views. I don't get this. There was no 'defeat' and by using that term it sets up an antagonistic forum - us versus them battle. That shouldn't be the case.

This sounded very harsh to me, and there are many one-liners that seem like personal attacks. I said I might be wrong. I sure hope that there is no vile between us. I am trying very hard to be a kind person, and to be polite and not to joke with people because they do not understand they are jokes and get offended. Anyway, if I am wrong then I am pleased.



Peace then,

Tsila,

Hope I am not off topic here. But just reading some of your post, don't worry your precious self about trying to defend your love for God. It doesn't need defending... shared.. yes.. but you don't have to defend to where it gets to the point where your feelings get hurt.

Let God's love shield you, protect you, and wrap yourself in His love, and you will never feel of twinge of any pain, when sharing His love or your belief in Our Heavenly Father.

Bless you now and always,
Allheart

Back to the question... "If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A religion is a *story about a supernatural*. The supernatural cannot be proved, therefore, all the assertions involving the supernatural in religious teachings cannot be proven... like salvation, heaven, original sin, and so on...

Some people study their religion, such as Christianity, and they also study difficult subjects such as physics and biology, philosophy and logic, mathematics and history... and so on.

Every individual *chooses* whether they want to believe/have faith in a religion such as Christianity... or... be a non-believer in the supernatural. In a free society, an individual is not forced to believe in a religion... in a dictatorship, such as Saudi Arabia, each citizen if forced to be a believer in Islam, and nothing else.

When I talk to Cred I specify setting aside religion, and things like that so that he can not lump it all together but he still manages to mix it all together to 'win'
You may state whatever you want. I may specify whatever I want. And I am not bound by - or responsible for - your claims. Only for what I state...

And your conclusions here are ludicrous... as usual...

:rolleyes:

·

Every individual *chooses* whether they want to believe/have faith in a religion such as Christianity...or...be a non-believer in the supernatural. In a free society, an individual is not forced to believe in a religion...
Although many theists seem to see that an an intolerable situation : they want to be free to believe themselves. But not others to be free to believe otherwise...
Enough of that type on this and other boards !

:rolleyes:

·

My claims are ludicrous but yet so many do so the same thing I see

my claims are ludicrous but yet so many do so the exact same thing I see
If you mean me with that, I do not see why it is so difficult for you just to quote where I ever did state not to believe at all into anything. Not by twisting the clear to everyone statement I make on belief already for many years and all over the Internet on religious boards.
I almost always and only make such statements on board related to religion, and I almost always refer clearly to belief of religious claims, and where not specific to religious belief, the link to religion is obvious from the context of my position. After all : one may after thousands of times making the same statements at times slip on on something.

Only those who have problems with the (clarity of my) statements on religious belief would go as low as you do now in the hope that I would change my position, or can be proved wrong. I will not, and never will. I simply do not believe in religious matters, and note in that respect that never ever has there been any objective supporting evidence provided for the correctness of the existence of the Christian god (and any other god/gods), and that god is the Creator. Without that support any religion - except Buddhism - is nothing more than hot empty air!!

But you are free to search the Internet for statements from my hand that supports your suggestion. It will be in vain, as I never changed my approach. The reason why so many theists hate my guts as they know my arguments are sound and beyond denying.
Only you, sassyT, and few other religious blinded still have to learn that...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

I've been away from this site for a while, so I don't know any of the background to it.

My only question is this;

Of all the religions in the world (and there are quite a few!) what makes you think yours is definitely the right one!

I really hope there's an afterlife, or reincarnation, or something along those lines... but asking me to live my life by a set of rules that may help, or even hinder my chances of getting that prize... and not even that, but make me choose from hundreds of options of which path to follow... that seems senseless to me!

If there is a God, Allah, Supreme Being... whatever there is... who was good enough to give me a life, I'm pretty sure he'd just want me to enjoy it while it lasts!

And if I'm wrong, I'll say sorry and buy him a beer when I see him...

Unless he's a Muslim or Morman, then I'll just get him a herbal tea!

Hi Hunt - ( be sure it's lite beer - the clouds can only hold up so much :).

Hunt, it has always been my belief, that any religion that accepts God and Jesus as their loving savior, is just another road to God. I believe, all these religions are just different roads that lead to God, and one religion surely is not superior or more right than the other.

It's kind of like, there are many colleges, all over the world. And in most colleges they teach engineering, different teachers, different ways to teach, but ultimately, when all the students complete their engineering courses, as well as all the other required courses, they all then are engineers, they just attended different colleges.

Different way of teaching, different teachers, but the outcome is the same, in knowing, loving and following the teachings of Our Heveanly Father.

Hope this makes a little sense :)

Yeah, that's a very good way of putting it!

But surely if I don't want to pick a religion, and I'm just a good person, God would be happy with that too! I mean, he's a clever bloke, he's going to understand my point of view! Ha ha!

The point here is not which/what religion is the right one it is the problem some non believers seem to have with believers (of any kind)

The point here is not which/what religion is the right one it is the problem some non believers seem to have with believers (of any kind)I wouldn't say that - maybe one specific one. The 'non-believers' don't go around telling your living your life the wrong way because you aren't like them. There no need to attempt to convert people. Do atheists go door-to-door like the mormons do? How about if both sides stop preaching?

Cred insists that American Christians in general are not living their life the right way.
In a sense his telling us constantly how we are basically hypocrites is about as bad as if he was saying 'your living your life the wrong way because you aren't like them'.

Back to the question...."If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A religion is a *story about a supernatural*. The supernatural cannot be proved, therefore, all the assertions involving the supernatural in religious teachings cannot be proven....like salvation, heaven, original sin, and so on.....

The reason why you say the supernatural can not be proven is because you are looking for NATURAL Scientific evidence for the SUPER NATURAL.. which does not make any sense.
The supernatural happens every day but it can not be scientifically proven because science is the study of NATURAL phenomenon so it is impossible to prove the supernatural by scientific means. There is a supernatural spiritual relm that exists and I know it does because my mom's sister used be a witch. Supernatural things happen all the time but skeptics like you always try to find a natural explanation for it. So just because in your Opinion you don't think the supernatural exists.. does not mean you are right because there is at least 5 billion people in the world who will disagree with you.

Allheart, You are so precious, you have such a sweet spirit, and you only want to help and encourage people. It is almost as if you are too good for this world. I know God is so pleased with you. And I too, and appreciative for your kind advice. I will do my best to follow it. As psa 91 states, He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

That secret place where I am cocooned in His Love and Divine Protection. Thank you so much for reminding me that I am in the world but not of the world and that Christ has overcome the world for our sake.

Blessing to you.

Although many theists seem to see that an an intolerable situation : they want to be free to believe themselves. But not others to be free to believe otherwise ...
Enough of that type on this and other boards !

·


You are free to believe what you want Cred but apparently you are the one who is intolerent to THeists because you spend more than half of your life harassing them on religious forums about their beliefs and trying to shove your atheistic beliefs down our throats. :rolleyes:
Get a life

But you are free to search the Internet for statements from my hand that supports your suggestion. It will be in vain, as I never changed my approach. The reason why so many theists hate my guts as they know my arguments are sound and beyond denying.
Only you, sassyT, and few other religious blinded still have to learn that ...

·

Lol.. Cred Theists don't hate your guts.. We just feel sorry for you. :(
I just hope when I get as old as you are there will be more to my life than harassing people young enough to be my grandchildren on religious online forums.

Yeah, that's a very good way of putting it!

But surely if I don't want to pick a religion, and I'm just a good person, God would be happy with that too! I mean, he's a clever bloke, he's going to understand my point of view! Ha ha!

If it turns out for you that God does exist, just "being good" is not going to get you into heaven. Because your standard of good is not God's standard of good. According to His word you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Advocate because he died so you could be found blameless before the eyes of God.
No one is good.

lol.. Cred Theists don't hate your guts.. We just feel sorry for you. :(
I just hope when i get as old as you are there will be more to my life than harassing people young enough to be my grandchildren on religious online forums.

I don't hate him OR feel sorry for him. He enjoys harassing with his word games
So I enjoy giving him the same hard time back that he dishes out.
He comes off as intolerant being critical of Christians 'supposedly' being intolerant
When that is what he perceives!

[quote=Credendovidis]Although many theists seem to see that an an intolerable situation : they want to be free to believe themselves. But not others to be free to believe otherwise... :confused:
Enough of that type on this and other boards !quote]



Dear Cred,:)
It seems, to my dismay, that I do still have a small mean streak. I will one last time like to point out that no one is perfect, and no one has the right to be critical of others in a mean spirited way especially concerning writing/typing abilities. As gently as I can, I would like to point out that you wrote and I quote “an an” instead of “as an”. You also put ‘they want to be free to believe themselves’ which is not a reasonable statement. You meant, I’m sure, to say, they want to be free to believe in what they perceive to be true, not to believe themselves…which has a completely different meaning.

You also said: Enough of that type on this and other boards ! I assume you meant discussion of beliefs. I do not for sure know what you meant by this, as it is rather unclear.

However, please read the topic of this board, may I kindly inquire how you have the authority to say we cannot discuss Christian beliefs or the lack thereof on this board or any other board? It may be that you do have such authority. It is quite possible that you are the one who did “pony up the cash” for this forum. Is that a true statement? Or have I completely misunderstood your meaning?

I humbly disagree that ‘theists’ as you call them, I assume you mean Christians or others who believe in a God, do not want others to be free to believe otherwise. I said as clearly as I knew how that one is free to believe what they want. It is a God given right to believe or to live in unbelief. I would never say you do not have the right to your own beliefs.:) And I do not intend to argue about who is right and who is wrong. As Needy so aptly pointed out: Everybody believes in something, could be they believe in the comfort of a good hooker or that water tastes good. To Needy, I also believe water tastes good, but in fact, I know by experience that water does taste good.

I do not agree with the other, but if one has to resort to that, then that too, is their business, and privilege.

Cred, I hope you have a wonderful day filled with great joy and wonderful surprises. I just believe today is a special day in which many people will receive at least one of their heart’s desires. I hope you are one of them.

Peace and Love in God’s grace, and mercy.
Tsila

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
When I talk to Cred I specify setting aside religion, and things like that so that he can not lump it all together but he still manages to mix it all together to 'win'




You may state whatever you want. I may specify whatever I want. And I am not bound by - or responsible for - your claims. Only for what I state ...

And your conclusions here are ludicrous ... as usual ...

:rolleyes:
·
Oh Cred,

Here we go again; another trip around the same old mountain, and just as futile as the last. Moreover, you are being just as hostile, so harsh and brash in your post. How sad it makes me that one has to stoop so low when intelligence fails them.

Anyone reading these two posts would not conclude, the latter was actually a reply to the former.


In fact, I have no idea what you are saying here at all. It makes no sense whatsoever, and has nothing to do with what Nohelp4u was explaining.

May I suggest that you read her post again, as I know English is only your 3rd language, perhaps an interpreter could help you to understand what she is saying.

Peace,

Yeah to keep my sanity I often have to remind myself that things DO get lost in translation with Cred0!! :rolleyes:

Sassy,

There is *no proof* that a supernatural world exists, therefore it is *YOUR OPINION* that a supernatural exists. That is why religion is called belief/faith... because there is no proof, it is just that someone has *chosen to believe*. They choose because they enjoy believing in a supernatural or fear reality, not because there is a supernatural.

If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?



Definition: Believe

Transitive verb -·lieved′, -·liev′·ing

to take as true, real, etc.
to have confidence in a statement or promise of (another person)
to suppose or think Intransitive verb

to have trust or confidence (in) as being true, real, good, etc.
to have religious faith
to suppose or think A collection of knowledge we have obtained in our lives. Or lack thereof. Perhaps hardships that have made us bitter, in some cases hardened out hearts or in others drove us to call out to a Higher Being. Could it be from experience as the Word says,


1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:


5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Having for 30 some years believed the Word of God, and put it to the test, standing firm and waiting patiently and seeing the desired results. This of course does not prove to others that it works, but does to the certain individual.


So then, for some it may be that experience…if one has had the experience of being burned then one has faith that if they touch the stove again they will be burned again.



That is belief/faith from experience.



If one prays a prayer that seem impossible, and stands firm, patiently waiting, after due time that prayer becomes a reality, then one by faith believes a second prayer will also be answered.


That is belief/faith from experience.



If one is in a situation where there seems to be no way out and prays to God for help and stands firm, waiting patiently, and then suddenly there is a way out, this one would believe by experience that a second cry for help, or prayer would also be answered.


That is belief/faith from experience.



Science can neither prove nor disprove God, because God created science and gave men the knowledge of it. Can I prove that statement? Of course not! Can anyone disprove it, no!


My question should have been why do you have faith in God, or why do you believe there is no God? Examples requested not irrationalities.



Peace and love,








.

Allheart, You are so precious, you have such a sweet spirit, and you only want to help and encourage people. It is almost as if you are too good for this world. I know God is so pleased with you. And I too, and appreciative for your kind advice. I will do my best to follow it. As psa 91 states, He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

That secret place where I am cocooned in His Love and Divine Protection. Thank you so much for reminding me that I am in the world but not of the world and that Christ has overcome the world for our sake.

Blessing to you.

Tsila - Thank you so much for the kind words. I truly cherish them. And thank you for the hug, because that's exactly what your words felt to me, and I send a huge loving hug right back.

Things of this world can be so very hard, and I am nowhere near perfect, so very far from it, but we have each other always, to love, encourage, and to be able to see the good, in things, and in all people, even if they think and feel differently then us.

Many blessings and hugs to you!

Tsila - Thank you so much for the kind words. I truly cherish them. And thank you for the hug, because that's exactly what your words felt to me, and I send a huge loving hug right back.

Things of this world can be so very hard, and I am nowhere near perfect, so very far from it, but we have each other always, to love, encourage, and to be able to see the good, in things, and in all people, even if they think and feel differently then us.

Many blessings and hugs to you!


Dear Allheart,

There could not be a more appropriate name for you. I envision you just as your icon. I have no idea what you look like in person, but I have seen your spirit and it is beautiful, sweet and kind.

You have been an example to me on these boards. There is no point trying to argue something that cannot be proven. And no point in taking things personally that others say. I have also come to realize that being polite and considerate even in the face of impolite remarks is better than lowering myself to their standards.

We are called to a higher standard, and to show the Love of God, and His gentleness, and goodness. These things you do so well. And by doing so, have inspired me to attain to that higher standard that God requires of us.

Not that we present ourselves as better than others, but as followers of Christ, who is the Expressed Image of God, we should conduct ourselves in love and peace and joy, so as to be pleasing to Him, and examples to others.

God’s blessing upon you, may you receive your heart’s desire today. (( Allheart )) big hug.

If you believe that *salvation* involves living after you die, then it is your belief/faith, it is not fact-there is no proof that there is a supernatural world.

Many lost people are *saved from themselves* by means other than *believing* in supernatural entities. :)

If it turns out for you that God does exist, just "being good" is not going to get you into heaven. Because your standard of good is not God's standard of good. According to His word you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Advocate because he died so you could be found blameless before the eyes of God.
No one is good.

Yeah, but what happpens if it turns out that there is a God, but the stuff you believe in is all wrong, and in fact all He wanted was for people to go out and have a good time and live their lives to their full potential. Then my beer-swilling, fun-loving God's standards are WAY different to yours and it'll be you that won't be going to heaven! Ha ha!

And saying "No one is good" is just ridiculous. No-one is perfect, but there are plenty of good people!

If you believe that *salvation* involves living after you die, then it is your belief/faith, it is not fact-there is no proof that there is a supernatural world.

Many lost people are *saved from themselves* by means other than *believing* in supernatural entities. :)

Of course, it is by faith, that it might be by grace, the gift of God. I do believe salvation includes eternal life, and not just after, I 'die', but here and now. He gave us eternal life; the newborn spirit will never die. How many times have I said it cannot be proven one way or the other?

To me it is a fact; to you it is not because you have no proof. If I had proof, then I would not need faith and it is impossible to please God without faith. So, I am glad I cannot prove it to you, because I would rather please God who loved me before there was time and knew my name.

[QUOTE=iAMfromHuntersBar]Yeah, but what happpens if it turns out that there is a God, but the stuff you believe in is all wrong, and in fact all He wanted was for people to go out and have a good time and live their lives to their full potential. Then my beer-swilling, fun-loving God's standards are WAY different to yours and it'll be you that won't be going to heaven! Ha ha!

Actually I would be guilty as charged because I been there done that, so you would see you in heaven... lol :D


And saying "No one is good" is just ridiculous. No-one is perfect, but there are plenty of good people!

It depends on what your standard of "Good" is. Yours is obviously not very high.

All I am saying is you talk about what you *believe*---therefore, it is not fact or proven true. You have to agree with that or risk being intellectually dishonest. Religion is faith/belief.
**By definition**, it is not fact or proven. You *believe*- it is your opinion-not fact, not proven, not true. You *believe* it is true.

We will have to agree to disagree. :)

All I am saying is you talk about what you *believe*---therefore, it is not fact or proven true. You have to agree with that or risk being intellectually dishonest. Religion is faith/belief.
**By definition**, it is not fact or proven. You *believe*- it is your opinion-not fact, not proven, not true. You *believe* it is true.

We will have to agree to disagree. :)

Nobody has been arguing that except the non believers who keep dwelling on it.
We got the point but the conversation keeps getting stuck right there.

Nobody has been arguing that except the non believers who keep dwelling on it.
We got the point but the conversation keeps getting stuck right there.

I agree... lol its becoming ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but what happpens if it turns out that there is a God ....
Pascals Wager has already for many years been proved to be logically invalid...

:rolleyes:

·

Nobody has been arguing that except the non believers who keep dwelling on it. We got the point but the conversation keeps getting stuck right there.
The non-theists have a valid point, but the theists don't want to accept the reality of that...

:rolleyes:

·

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Nobody has been arguing that except the non believers who keep dwelling on it. We got the point but the conversation keeps getting stuck right there.

Cred said: The non-theists have a valid point, but the theists don't want to accept the reality of that...

Dear Cred, she just did! Did you bother to read her post? It sure doesn't seem so from your response.

Can we not move on?

I was told you were intelligent... prove that if you can.

The reason why you say the supernatural can not be proven is because you are looking for NATURAL Scientific evidence for the SUPER NATURAL.. which does not make any sense.
The supernatural happens every day but it can not be scientifically proven because science is the study of NATURAL phenomenon so it is impossible to prove the supernatural by scientific means. There is a supernatural spiritual relm that exists and i know it does because my mom's sister used be a witch. Supernatural things happen all the time but skeptics like you always try to find a natural explanation for it. So just because in your Opinion you dont think the supernatural exists.. does not mean you are right because there is atleast 5 billion people in the world who will disagree with you.

Good post.

I wouldn't say that - maybe one specific one. The 'non-believers' don't go around telling your living your life the wrong way because you aren't like them. There no need to attempt to convert people. Do atheists go door-to-door like the mormons do? How about if both sides stop preaching?

No, atheists go to court and get prayer taken out of all schools because someone was offended, and to prevent thousands from saying the pledge because one person was offended. They demand that one not say 'in Jesus Name' when praying in public, because someone may be offended. They have done so many things but my gosh, to go to someone's door and talk to them about God over a nice cup of coffee? How dare those mormons!:eek:

No, atheists go to court and get prayer taken out of all schools because someone was offended
Not so. Because prayer does not belong in schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.


They demand that one not say 'in Jesus Name' when praying in public, because someone may be offended.
Not so. Because prayer is a personal activity, a personal silent time of reflection. Churches are for religious activities.

:rolleyes:

·

Not so. Because prayer does not belong in schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.


Not so. Because prayer is a personal activity, a personal silent time of reflection. Churches are for religious activities.

:rolleyes:



How is it not true??
If you want to be factually correct
Your statements should be

That's right because Because prayer does not belong in schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.


That's right because prayer is a personal activity, a personal silent time of reflection. Churches are for religious activities.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If you want to be factually correct ...

No, atheists go to court and get prayer taken out of all schools because someone was offended.
Atheists do not go to Court because they are offended by prayer.
They go to Court because prayer does not belong in schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.

So my statement was correct...

Go to bed, have some sleep...

:rolleyes:

·

Sapph,

Each godbeliever has to**acknowledge** the simple point that what they say about their religion is their *BELIEF/FAITH*, and not fact or proven... or we can't go forward in any discussion.

We can't go forward until that is done.

Neither can we go forward as long as Atheists continue to deny that what they have is a BELIEF. Looks like stalemate to me.

Neither can we go forward as long as Atheists continue to deny that what they have is a BELIEF. Looks like stalemate to me.
Exactly what I was trying to get across in that one post I did on objective/subjective belief

Not so. Because prayer does not belong in schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.


Not so. Because prayer is a personal activity, a personal silent time of reflection. Churches are for religious activities.

:rolleyes:

·
Not so, because back in the good old days when this country was young and people had morals, schools taught children to read using the Bible! When I was in school, we always said the pledge to the flag, and had prayer time.

Separation of government and religion was intended to keep the government from interfering with religions, not to kick God out of our schools, and public places. This country was founded on freedom of religion.





How could displaying the Ten Commandments in schools and other places offend anyone? If they do not like it, they do not have to look at it. Just like those of us who do not like to look at certain types of people making out in public, and having their parades. :eek: We just turn our heads. Which is not really what we should be doing, we should be fighting for our rights.




It is a fact that since they have done that, there has been much more violence in the schools. That offends me, but I suppose that does not count to the non-believers. They would rather have guns, knives and bombs in schools than prayer and the Ten Commandments.

Sapph,

Each godbeliever has to**acknowledge** the simple point that what they say about their religion is their *BELIEF/FAITH*, and not fact or proven....or we can't go forward in any discussion.

We can't go forward until that is done.

Dear,

That has been done so many times that it is now ridiculous that people still insist that we should do that. How many times would be enough? 100? 200? How many times must we say this is our belief, this is our faith. How many?

Why do non-believers not have to write this is my 'non-belief'? Why should only believers have to clarify their statements and non-believers do not? Your beliefs are not facts either and they have not been proven. Why the double standard? Has anyone every insisted that non-believers should begin every sentence with 'this is my non-belief…?' If we have to begin each sentence with I believe, then non-believers should have to begin every sentence with this is my non-belief. Would that not be fair?


Your non-belief is YOUR BELIEF! :rolleyes: You believe there is no God. That is your belief. So let us go on with each stating this is my belief... believers and non-believers. Would that make it possible for us to go forward?


It by faith through grace that we are saved. It is a gift from God. However, as I have pointed out several times, to no avail, I am not a religious person. I do not subscribe to any religion. I believe in relationship with God, as do many thousands of other people.

There are many religions, and some call themselves Christians. However, not all Christians are in a structured religion.

But I believe there is a God Who sent His Son to die for my sins. It is my belief that He was raised for my justification. I believe that He even now lives to make intercession for me. I believe someday He will return for His people and I believe that after the Church is removed from the earth, it is my belief that the wrath of God will be poured out on non-believers. This is what But I believe there is a God Who sent His Son to die for my sins. It is my belief that He was raised for my justification. I believe that He even now lives to make intercession for me. I believe someday He will return for His people and I believe that after the Church is removed from the earth, it is my belief that the wrath of God will be poured out on non-believers. This is what I believe. My belief is based on the Word of God by faith in His Word, and I believe that the Word of God is true, I believe because I have faith in God.

Is this enough, I hope so because that's all you get from me.
. My belief is based on the Word of God by faith in His Word, and that the Word of God is true, because I have faith in God.

Is this enough, I hope so because that's all you get from me.

Like I say if you come on religion boards or Christian boards you should accept that the board is about Belief and faith not fact, even when people state their belief as fact it should be assumed that it is belief so why does I believe that have to be preceded by a statement of belief?
The board is clearly listed religion which clearly means BELIEF
I have said that before and I will continue to say it. Nobody is forcing atheists to come to the Christian board, the Religion board or any board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Neither can we go forward as long as Atheists continue to deny that what they have is a BELIEF. Looks like stalemate to me.

Quote by nohelp4u: Exactly what I was trying to get across in that one post I did on objective/subjective belief __________________

Why is it so hard for them to understand that if they say 'I do not believe in God, they are actually saying I believe God does not exist.' That is their belief and It is not a fact, it has not been proven, and they cannot prove it, but they state it as if it were as fact.

However, when we state what we believe they create this double standard that Each godbeliever has to**acknowledge** the simple point that what they say about their religion is their *BELIEF/FAITH*, and not fact or proven..


It just goes to show how they think. Which is why they believe there is no God, but do not understand that they cannot state it as a fact because it has not been proven. So they should have to **acknowledge** the simple point that what they say about their lack of religion is their *BELIEF/FAITH*, and not fact or proven..

peace and love,

Like I say if you come on religion boards or Christian boards you should accept that the board is about Belief and faith not fact, even when people state their belief as fact it should be assumed that it is belief so why does I believe that have to be preceded by a statement of belief?
The board is clearly listed religion which clearly means BELIEF
I have said that before and I will continue to say it. Nobody is forcing atheists to come to the Christian board, the Religion board or any board.

I know they have a right to post here, but why do they come to a Christian board and then try to tell us how we should share our beliefs with each other? Is there not an atheist's board where they can share their beliefs with each other? Why don't all the atheists start a new board and they can just agree with each other all night long and there will be no stalemates.

Repeating myself for Cred’s sake, I know you do have a right to post here…but I wonder why you do. Is it that you are indeed looking for a reason to believe in God? Do you secretly want to be convinced that God is and that He rewards those that diligently seek Him?

That is the only reason that makes sense to me. Either that, or you just like to annoy Christians who are trying to have a pleasant conversation and share our faith, beliefs and understandings of God’s Word and His Son’s work in our lives. Why would you want to do that? Since you cannot prove what you believe, and your belief is not a fact.

Peace upon every soul who reads and understands; you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God and receive eternal life.

Please understand this, I refuse to submit to your rules of how I express my Christian beliefs on this religious board unless you conform to the same rules. If you do not like it, then you will just have to deal with it.:)

Yeah I don't mind them posting on the boards but as you say the constant pointing out
"THAT is what YOU BELIEVE" IS over done and ridiculous.

Atheists do not go to Court because they are offended by prayer.
They go to Court because prayer does not belong in schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.

So my statement was correct ...

Go to bed, have some sleep ...

:rolleyes:

·
Cred,
You are supposed to say "I believe' or "that's my belief' or "in my opinion' before you make statements that like.

Tsila - A nice big hug for you sweetheart.

We believe in our faith - and we believe it to be true - That God loves all of us, and that is a Divine Truth.

Cred, You are supposed to say "I believe' or "that's my belief' or "in my opinion' before you make statements that like.
I stated
Atheists do not go to Court because they are offended by prayer.
They go to Court because prayer does not belong in schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.
So my statement was correct ...
Why should I say "I believe"? Atheists do not go to Court because they are offended by your prayer. Why would they?
Atheists go to Court because theist prayer does not belong in public schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.
There is no belief involved in what I stated. Just logic and reality.
So my statement was correct...

-

At the other hand : if you state "God tells me to do ...." than you make a religious CLAIM, and you should state "I believe" in front of that.


:rolleyes:

·

Why should I say "I believe"? Atheists do not go to Court because they are offended by your prayer. Why would they?
You believe that they do not go to court because they are offended, but in the USA it is common practice for people to go to court over what they are offended by

Why should they?
Why do a lot of people do the things they do that doesn't make sense?

Why should I say "I believe"?
You should start with "I believe" when you make a claim.
A (religious) claim !

CLAIM : a statement that proposes a view, property, or quality, without being accompanied by objective supported evidence to support that claim as correct.

:rolleyes:

·

Why because YOU can not speak for other peoples intents that they are not doing it because they are offended. That is YOUR conclusion. Since you don't see why they should or would do it because they are offended it means that you conclude without all the facts. That is why.:rolleyes:

Cred,

You have been blessed with superior intelligence that I for one can not nor would I want to keep up with.

But here is the thing... faith is a sprituality, that comes from your inner spirit, it's not to be laid out with a logical thought process. So your crusade to be shown proof, in a logical
Way, may never bear the fruit for which you seek.

... You have been blessed with
My intelligence is not at stake here. We were discussing why a wild (religious) claim should be preceded by "I believe". Please do not try to change that subject, once you realize that your arguments are based logical quicksand.

·

And good news for many here : I will be out for a couple of days with my grandchildren on holidays.

·

:rolleyes:

·

My intelligence is not at stake here. We were discussing why a wild (religious) claim should be preceded by "I believe". Please do not try to change that subject, once you realize that your arguments are based logical quicksand.

·

And good news for many here : I will be out for a couple of days with my grandchildren on holidays.

·

:rolleyes:

·

Cred, what did you eat nails for breakfast :). Yikes. I wasn't trying to change the topic, just trying to explain to you...

Enjoy the grandchildren.

Cred, what did you eat nails for breakfast :). Yikes. I wasn't trying to change the topic, just trying to explain to you... Enjoy the grandchildren.
If I need any explanation I will ask for that... see you own previous post about IQ...

And thanks for your wish : I will ! :)

:rolleyes:

·

Cred -

What is it about Christians that you so dislike? There appears to be a great deal of upset
That comes from you, why is that?

Cred - What is it about Christians that you so dislike? There appears to be a great deal of upset that comes from you, why is that?
TOTAL NONSENSE !!!

I do not dislike Christianity at all. My partner is a Christian for many decades, and I support her all the way in anything she wants, including support in her many religious activities. And over the years many Bishops and Archbishops have been been guests at our house, shared supper with us, drank our wine, and enjoyed our company.

I dislike those who try to change the subject once they feel or realize to have lost the argument.
I also dislike those who make (religious) claims they refuse to support, but still keep claiming they are "right".
And I dislike those who start posting cr*p when they get p*ssed after feeling or realizing that they just lost the argument.

If the shoe fits...

:rolleyes:

·

One thing I do not argue about is religion and/or God's love.

Religion isn't a topic for "argument" - to prove wrong or right, but to openly discuss.

That's the way I see it.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../amhd_imgs/reputation/reputation_pos.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/credendovidis.html#latest_rep)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
Cred - What is it about Christians that you so dislike? There appears to be a great deal of upset that comes from you, why is that?
TOTAL NONSENSE !!!

I do not dislike Christianity at all. My partner is a Christian for many decades, and I support her all the way in anything she wants, including support in her many religious activities. And over the years many Bishops and Archbishops have been been guests at our house, shared supper with us, drank our wine, and enjoyed our company.

I dislike those who try to change the subject once they feel or realize to have lost the argument.
I also dislike those who make (religious) claims they refuse to support, but still keep claiming they are "right".
And I dislike those who start posting cr*p when they get p*ssed after feeling or realizing that they just lost the argument.

If the shoe fits ...what size do you wear Cred? LOL

Cred. if you will note the original topic was: If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?

I do not know whom or when it got so off topic, but if you will also note, in # 50, I tried to get back on topic and even went into more detail as to what I was asking. Also please note above the answer box it says "Answer this Question. So you and yours have been off topic for this entire board.

Don't go away mad, just go away...that was a joke...enjoy your grandkids, take more than a few days, take a week. They grow up so fast you should not miss a minute with them.

peace dear one,

Cred, I see in #5 you did notice the question, and even agreed it was a good question, but you answered it with another question. What is it they say about people who do that?

Seriously, I want to know. Anyone?

What is it they say about people who do that? Seriously, I want to know. Anyone?
My reaction #88 was to a statement by Allheart, completely with quotation to ensure that everyone would understand that.

Yes : I agreed that YOUR question was a good question.
But does that mean one may not address other statements made in this topic ?

What is it they say about people who post replies like the one you did here?
Seriously, I want to know. Anyone?

"Sieg Heil" ? "Jawohl Herr Ober Truppen Anfuhrer" ?

:rolleyes:
·

PS : from tomorrow I'm out for a couple of days with my grandchildren. So time enough for you to table all your frustrations , while you can...

:D :D :D :D :D

·

My reaction #88 was to a statement by Allheart, completely with quotation to ensure that everyone would understand that.

Yes : I agreed that YOUR question was a good question.
But does that mean one may not address other statements made in this topic ?

What is it they say about people who post replies like the one you did here?
Seriously, I want to know. Anyone?

"Sieg Heil" ? "Jawohl Herr Ober Truppen Anfuhrer" ?


·

PS : from tomorrow I'm out for a couple of days with my grandchildren. So time enough for you to table all your frustrations , while you can ....



·
I am not the one who is frustrated here. Why would you assume that?:confused:

Why is it that the best you can come up with is to repeat what the former poster says?

Can't you come up with anything original?

Why do you make statements that have no basic of proof? But only what you believe to be true.


Why do never answer a direct question?

Are you so afraid of failure?


I grade on the curve. :p:p

Not so. Because prayer does not belong in schools, other than in personal silent reflection. Schools are to teach people. Churches are for religious activities.


Not so. Because prayer is a personal activity, a personal silent time of reflection. Churches are for religious activities.

:rolleyes:

·
Sorry to disappoint you, but I pray out loud. Sometimes very loud. Sometimes I yell.

Amen!!

I also pray in public.

And who said where prayer belongs and doesn't belong? I never said it doesn't belong in school. I was always better off praying before a test.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I pray out loud. Sometimes very loud. Sometimes I yell.
What you personally do is not my concern, although you do not seem to be very tolerant towards people with different religious or non-religious views.
All I stated was that as far schools are concerned "prayer is a personal activity, a personal silent time of reflection."

:rolleyes:

·

Prayer is much more than just a personal thing.

We are called to pray for this nation.

2 Chronicles 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

We are called to teach the Word to children.

Deuteronomy 4:9
Only take heed to yourself, and diligently keep yourself, lest you forget the things your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. And teach them to your children and your grandchildren,


Romans 12:9
Don't just pretend to love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Hold tightly to what is good.

God is good. Humans are not. Human understanding will fade and God's wisdom will not. I have to reject that which does not line up with the Word of God. Many things that I used to believe do not line up. I used to believe in many different religions, world views and found that nothing can stand in the Light of God's Word.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.


And also,

2 Corinthians 10:5
casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

I tried to run from Him. It doesn't work when He decides He wants you.

2 Chronicles 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Saved... I do not like savedsinner... you were a sinner, now you are saved, holy unto God the Father, washed in the Blood of Jesus, made the righteousness of God...

but that wasn't what I was going to say... We need this so much. We need God to heal our land. Good post.

God bless and keep you, child of God, beloved and precious in His sight.

We are called to pray for this nation.
Not true : to "heal their land" does not refer to any specific nation! And your "nation" was not even mentioned!
You were asked to pray, but may I remind you that JC cleared the temple of all misusers and of all phonies who used it to show others how "good" they were with their religious feelings?
To pray does not mean to pray loud for all to see and hear.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

·

Not true : to "heal their land" does not refer to any specific nation! And your "nation" was not even mentioned!

You were asked to pray, but may I remind you that JC cleared the temple of all misusers and of all phonies who used it to show others how "good" they were with their religious feelings?
To pray does not mean to pray loud for all to see and hear.


·


You do err not knowing the Scriptures... but it is good to see that you finally acknowledge that JC did and does exist.


If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

That be Christians, Cred, in whatever land/nation they may live.....:rolleyes:


He cleared the temple because they were hypocrites, charging huge prices for offerings, and for 'changing money' and making big profits. they were stealing from the ones who were coming to worship.


I believe Christ died for the ungodly (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/believe-christ-died-ungodly-240865.html), that was us, now are we the sons/daughters of God because of Jesus Christ, whom you just acknowledged.
Jesus cleared the temple because He said it was to be a 'house of prayer'


NOW we are the temple of God. We are to pray at all times and in all ways. To pray without ceasing.


12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

And our nation was indeed included, we were at one time without God, but Jesus is our peace bringing us into the family of God and the Blessing of Abraham upon us who believe. Abraham is the father of all those who believe, as the stars of the sky………


Genesis 17:5
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Now, Cred, so you will not have to bother, let me answer for you... :)

That is just what you believe, there is no proof of your wild claims. That is just your belief. It is still all by faith.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

tsila1777

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Not true : to "heal their land" does not refer to any specific nation! And your "nation" was not even mentioned!

You were asked to pray, but may I remind you that JC cleared the temple of all misusers and of all phonies who used it to show others how "good" they were with their religious feelings?
To pray does not mean to pray loud for all to see and hear.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures... but it is good to see that you finally acknowledge that JC did and does exist.


If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

That be Christians, Cred, in whatever land/nation they may live...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly so if American's pray for THEIR land then it means THEIR land. IF they and/or Africans pray for Africa then it means Africa. It means whatever land is being prayed for in the prayer.

tsila1777



Exactly so if American's pray for THEIR land then it means THEIR land. IF they and/or Africans pray for Africa then it means Africa. It means whatever land is being prayed for in the prayer.


Its amazing how simple and obvious things are so difficult for Cred to understand.. lol :rolleyes:

...it is good to see that you finally acknowledge that JC did and does exist.
I acknowledge that in the mythical bible story that is claimed to have happened.
I will even accept that the human Jesus may have done such a thing.
What I do not acknowledge - because there is not one single iota of evidence for that - is that Jesus was God's son, nor that the supranatural deity "God" exists.

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

Cred, maybe not yet but someday you will see.

Philippians 2:9-11 (New Living Translation)
9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
And gave him the name above all other names,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
In heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
To the glory of God the Father.

I acknowledge that in the mythical bible story that is claimed to have happened.
I will even accept that the human Jesus may have done such a thing.
What I do not acknowledge - because there is not one single iota of evidence for that - is that Jesus was God's son, nor that the supranatural deity "God" exists.


· :(


So then, Cred, I guess you will go to Hell, and be there for eternity. That's sad, but that is what I believe, that is my belief, I have no proof for my wild claim, but it is still the truth, and when you open your eyes in Hell, I want you to remember this, Tsila told me the truth and I refused to believe, now it is too late.

Because, if you believe it or not, in Hell, you will have your memory, and your senses, (finally*) and you will be able talk. You will wish you could send someone back to warn your loved ones. You will remember everyone who ever warned you, and you will remember ever time you denied God.


You will be there forever, without any hope of getting out. Wouldn’t it be, just in case I am right, worth opening your mind and considering that I could possibly be right? Just in case,……………….if I am wrong; what harm could there be for you. However, if I am right then you would have escaped eternal damnation. Are you willing to take that chance? Just because of pride, or whatever is holding you back.

It is such a simple thing to do, just believe, (and believing is a choice) in your heart, that Jesus is the Son of God and He died for your sins, and was raised for your justification. Confess you are a sinner and in need of a Savior, and ask Jesus to come into your heart. Then confess with your mouth that Jesus is now Lord of your life. And you will be saved.

It would only take a few minutes to do and would save you from never-ending torment.:eek:

Father, I pray for Cred, that You would open his eyes that he may see and his heart that he may understand faith. I pray that he would be willing to be willing to accept Jesus as his Lord and I bind any demons of hell that would come against him and try to stop him from turning from the wide road that leads to destruction, and place his feet on the narrow path that leads to salvation. I know there is nothing to hard for You, Father, and even though he seems hardened, You, in Your wisdom and Mighty Power can reach down and touch him and cause him to see the truth. The truth of a Loving Father Who gave His Own Son for him, for Cred, because You love him so much. In Jesus’ Holy and Precious Name, Amen

Sincerely,

*joke

So then, Cred, I guess you will go to Hell, and be there for eternity.
You may BELIEVE that. But the real question is : will that indeed happen?

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

You may BELIEVE that. But the real question is : will that indeed happen?

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·


So, you finally admit there is a question in your mind. That's good, Cred.:)
But, I would not want to wait and see if I were you. If you don't repent, yes, it will happen, and you'll remember me, not as 'I told you so', but as one who tried to help you.

If you don't repent, yes, it will happen, and you'll remember me, not as 'I told you so', but as one who tried to help you.
Again I see that that is only what you BELIEVE ! Fine with me if you want to believe that, but I prefer not to follow you in that belief.

Science tells me that there is no reason for your supra-natural entity to exist. And that there seems to be no place where such an entity complete with heaven and hell are located.

Pascal provided with his wager the logical conclusion that christians are in the same position as other theists and non-theists : believing in an entity just out of fear for some claimed "final judgment" does not work. There is no guarantee that any religious claim is the correct one. All Christians do is believe in another god than other mono-theists do, believe in less gods than multi-theists do, or in one more god than non-believers do.

Theism, you and all your theist peers can not provide any objective supported evidence towards the existence of their deity.

Human history provides a good explanation why early humanity designed gods to "explain the unexplained".

Psychology provides good reasons the idea of a "fatherlike" god entity and of an afterlife helps many people to come to terms with disaster, illness, death, and the wish to see again those who over the years fell away.

Death does not worry me a bit. In my volunteer activities in the local hospes I see many people struggle with dying because of their fear for that "final judgment" idea that is brainwashed into them, to keep them in the flock. All of those are theists, most of them are Christians. But none of those afraid to die are Secular Humanists.
I have learned to live NOW. I take life to the fullest, and enjoy the existence of my wife, children, and grandchildren. And I make sure that I do not have to say ever "if I had ... " ever once it is too late. I realize that life is short and limited, and live accordingly.

Conclusion : I do not need all these wild religious claims. I can take all problems of life without having to focus on some claimed-to-exist entity that does not seem to have any inclination to connect "him"self with those "he" calls "his" children.

I can not accept the Old Testament : I can not "believe" in an entity that required humanity in it's apparent need for violence, bloodthistyness, revenge, and hatred for those who do not follow "his" wishes. And I do not need an entity that states that "he" loves all humans, but demands total obedience without which you are doomed and on your way to "hell".

I can not accept the New Testament : I do not need or want a "father" who allows his only "son" to be killed without trying to do anything against that. For a supra-natural entity that is claimed to have created an entire universe in 6 days only there were trillions of ways to prevent that, and find other ways to "save" his other "children".

BELIEVE whatever you like to believe.

But the chances that some ("final judgement" will happen are extremely low - zero as far as I am concerned - , and you'll NOT see nor remember me after your death, as by that time you really will be dead too. Death : no body functions left, no thoughts left. Nothing anymore. Just decay, and a source of nutrients for other lifeforms.

The only difference between us is that I can live with that thought, but that you require religious "hocus pocus" and the apparent belief that "Christ died for the ungodly" to come to terms with it. Fine with me ! But it does not make anything you BELIEVE into reality!!

:rolleyes:

·

Cred, there are many claims here without proof.
Where is your proof that what we believe is false? Prove us wrong with real data. Search and find the proof for your claims that you demand of Christians.

Where is your proof that what we believe is false?
Wrong approach SS7. I have never stated that you or any other one is wrong and/or that what you believe is false. From me you may believe whatever you want.

However : what you believe is just that : BELIEF. If whatever one believes is reality depends on the validity of the supporting data, and not on what is believed and/or by whom.


Prove us wrong with real data. Search and find the proof for your claims that you demand of Christians.
Why would I prove you wrong? I have no need to prove you or anyone else wrong.

And why would I have to prove a negative (for instance) that God does not exist, if the believers in that "God" can not even provide objective supporting evidence for the existence of their "God"?

I suggest you do your homework, and stop accusing me from things I did not do, nor ask me to prove why something is NOT, while you yourself can not even support your own position in favor of the opposite.

:D

·

[quote=Credendovidis]Again I see that that is only what you BELIEVE ! Fine with me if you want to believe that, but I prefer not to follow you in that belief. But you do follow us Cred, from board to board to 'try to drive us up the wall' right?

Science tells me that there is no reason for your supra-natural entity to exist. And that there seems to be no place where such an entity complete with heaven and hell are located. You believe science and their “seems to be” conclusion…because you chose to, not because there is any EVIDENCE. What science hasn't discovered yet is the spirit world.

Pascal provided with his wager the logical conclusion that Christians are in the same position as other theists and non-theists : believing in an entity just out of fear for some claimed "final judgment" does not work. There is no guarantee that any religious claim is the correct one. All Christians do is believe in another god than other mono-theists do, believe in less gods than multi-theists do, or in one more god than non-believers do. Pascal himself didn't address the question of other religions in his section on the wager, presumably because throughout the rest of Pensées (and in his other works) he examined alternatives, like stoicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism), paganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism), Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), and Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism), and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.

Theism, you and all your theist peers can not provide any objective supported evidence towards the existence of their deity. Theistic evolution, less commonly known as evolutionary creationism, is the general opinion that some or all classical religious teachings about God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God) and creation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_according_to_Genesis) are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution). Theistic evolution is not a theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory) in the scientific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science) sense, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to some religious interpretations. In this way, theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who deny the conflict thesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis) regarding the relationship between religion and science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_religion_and_science); that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not be contradictory.

Human history provides a good explanation why early humanity designed gods to "explain the unexplained". History? You mean books written by men, who twist facts and give their own interpretation of events? Including but not confined to the 'Indian wars'? This is not even a bad example of anything to do with nothing.

Psychology provides good reasons the idea of a "fatherlike" god entity and of an afterlife helps many people to come to terms with disaster, illness, death, and the wish to see again those who over the years fell away. So, this is supposed to be evidence? Good reasons are not proof. Good reasons are opinions; it is what they believe.

Death does not worry me a bit. In my volunteer activities in the local hospes I see many people struggle with dying because of their fear for that "final judgment" idea that is brainwashed into them, to keep them in the flock. All of those are theists, most of them are Christians. But none of those afraid to die are Secular Humanists.
I have learned to live NOW. I take life to the fullest, and enjoy the existence of my wife, children, and grandchildren. And I make sure that I do not have to say ever "if I had ... " ever once it is too late. I realize that life is short and limited, and live accordingly. That's good, because in the afterlife you will say, “if I had only…”

Conclusion : I do not need all these wild religious claims. I can take all problems of life without having to focus on some claimed-to-exist entity that does not seem to have any inclination to connect "him"self with those "he" calls "his" children. But that's where you have misunderstanding, Cred, he does want so very much to connect to His children. That's why He created us, for fellowship with Him.

I can not accept the Old Testament : I can not "believe" in an entity that required humanity in it's apparent need for violence, bloodthistyness, revenge, and hatred for those who do not follow "his" wishes. And I do not need an entity that states that "he" loves all humans, but demands total obedience without which you are doomed and on your way to "hell". Humanity is violent, bloodthirsty, and full of hate, He wants to give us peace, and rest. It was not God that 'required' such things; it is satan and his revenge on God trying to destroy those He loves. But Jesus came and defeated satan, and now it is a person's choice if they want to be violent and bloodthirsty. If all humanity would turn to God Who is Love there would be no more war.

I can not accept the New Testament : I do not need or want a "father" who allows his only "son" to be killed without trying to do anything against that. For a supra-natural entity that is claimed to have created an entire universe in 6 days only there were trillions of ways to prevent that, and find other ways to "save" his other "children". It was necessary for Jesus to die as He did in order to save those who would believe. It was God's love for us, that He allowed His Son to died; so that Jesus would be the firstborn of many brethren. After Adam sinned, there had to be redemption in order for there to be 'other children'. It was God in the flesh; He gave Himself…God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

BELIEVE whatever you like to believe. I will, and I do not need your permission.

But the chances that some ("final judgement" will happen are extremely low - zero as far as I am concerned - , and you'll NOT see nor remember me after your death, as by that time you really will be dead too. Death : no body functions left, no thoughts left. Nothing anymore. Just decay, and a source of nutrients for other lifeforms. That is your belief, you have no proof, there is no evidence that what you believe is true. I know this earthly body will die, but my spirit which is the real me will live on, and so will yours.

The only difference between us is that I can live with that thought, but that you require religious "hocus pocus" and the apparent belief that "Christ died for the ungodly" to come to terms with it. Fine with me ! But it does not make anything you BELIEVE into reality!! On this, we almost agree…I do require. I require the Blood of Jesus to cleanse me from all unrighteousness, so that I can live with Him forever in glory; in the pleasures of the Lord. Oh, what glory divine…I do not fear death, I have passed from death unto life. For me death will be like taking off a heavy coat, nothing more. Oh grave where is thy victory, oh death where is thy sting.
I done typed myself happy, praise God for His Mercy, and Grace. Blessed be the Name of the Lord. Praise, Glory and Honor to Him that sits on the throne.
Cred, I cannot prove it, but I can feel the Presence of God right now, and it is wonderful.





:rolleyes:

... But you do follow us Cred[/B], from board to board to ‘try to drive us up the wall’ right?... What TOTAL NONSENSE is that ?
About half of all my posts are on the technical boards, and about all others are on the members discussion boards, with most of those on this religious discussions board.
So WHAT FOLLOWING are you babbling about?

You still have problems with your paranoia, I see!!

:D

·

If Cred doesn't care what Christians believe, then why does he post so many times ridiculing that faith? Methinks he doth protest too much! (Apologies to Shakespeare)

If Cred doesn't care what Christians believe, then why does he post so many times ridiculing that faith? Methinks he doth protest too much! (Apologies to Shakespeare)

Metoo!
SO he posts 6,000 on the other boards and that still leaves 577 here what does that prove as to not following the religious boards around AND THIS IS ON the Member Discussions! So what's the point?

If Cred doesn't care what Christians believe, then why does he post so many times ridiculing that faith? Methinks he doth protest too much!
Who says I am ridiculing the Christian faith? If I ridicule (I said IF !!!) than I ridicule the lack of value and content of most theist posters.
See your own two posts here, which I refer to now! Do you think that is the way to address someone who repeatedly REQUESTED support of your religious views?
What about that part of your Christian Mission to "spread the word"?
All you do is poo on my previous post. But what positive thought(s) do you have to add yourself?

All you two can do is utter your frustrations...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

I didn't say you ridicule it I said you DO follow the religious boards but that IS your prerogative any way.

What TOTAL NONSENSE is that ?
About half of all my posts are on the technical boards, and about all others are on the members discussion boards, with most of those on this religious discussions board.
So WHAT FOLLOWING are you babbling about?

You still have problems with your paranoia, I see !!!

:D

·:( AGAIN, of all that I responded to your post... this is the best that you can do!?

I am disappointed in you, Cred.

I thought you would at least have the guts to read all of it and respond appropriately; instead, you go on the offense like most... Well we all know why people get offensive don't we?

I know the best defense is offense…but how…well I do not want to stoop to your level and analyze you or call you names, but honestly, Cred, you are just so obvious.

By the way, your diagnosis was completely wrong…where did you get your PHD?

I thought you would at least have the guts to read all of it and respond appropriately
I did. I just did not find it necessary to react to every line in your post 113 any further than I did.

I note that you did not replied to the two simple questions I asked you :

- What TOTAL NONSENSE is that ?

- WHAT FOLLOWING are you babbling about?

So you have no answers to that, I have to assume...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

What TOTAL NONSENSE is that ?
About half of all my posts are on the technical boards,

Yeah right... :rolleyes: don't lie to yourself

yeah right... dont lie to yourself
That is the truth. I do not lie. I do not have to lie... Unlike you...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

Sassy, in all fairness, Cred isn't lying, he does offer allot of advice on the technical boards.

Also, remember, the religious boards are for discussion amongst all faiths, that includes not believing in God. The Christianity board is for discussions about God with other like minded people, and Cred doesn't go on the Chrsitianity board, only the religious board.

So, open mind, otherwise yet another thread will be closed.

Sassy, in all fairness, Cred isn't lying, he does offer allot of advice on the technical boards.

Also, remember, the religious boards are for discussion amongst all faiths, that includes not believing in God. The Christianity board is for discussions about God with other like minded people, and Cred doesn't go on the Chrsitianity board, only the religious board.

So, open mind, otherwise yet another thread will be closed.

I realize this is a religious board, but is it not for questions and answers. To answer the question posted, not for mocking the ones who are trying to answer or discuss the question sincerely.

..... To answer the question posted, not for mocking the ones who are trying to answer or discuss the question sincerely.
Than why do you post the way you do??

:rolleyes:

·

[F realize this is a religious board, but is it not for questions and answers. To answer the question posted, not for mocking the ones who are trying to answer or discuss the question sincerely.

That is true, but unfortunately there is allot of mocking on both sides, you do have to admit that.

I was just pointing out a bit of truth, I do apologize for not sticking to the subject at hand, but that was already happening before I posted.

My purpose for posting was to clarify, trying to end the ensuing argument so that you all could get back to the original post.

Peace. :)

I did. I just did not find it necessary to react to each and every line in your post 113 any further than I did.

I note that you did not replied to the two simple questions I asked you :

- What TOTAL NONSENSE is that ?

- WHAT FOLLOWING are you babbling about?

you also said You still have problems with your paranoia, I see !!!

So you have no answers to that, I have to assume ....

·
You said: About half of all my posts are on the technical boards, and about all others are on the members discussion boards, with most of those on this religious discussions board.



My response to this is: why?

It is not nonsense, you admit it is true. Can you tell me why you spend about half your time on religious sites? There must be something that keeps drawing you here as you keep asking for proof, it seems to me you are searching for a reason to believe.

Babbling? Why would you use this word to describe what I said? Babbling: Utter meaningless sounds, like a baby, or utter in an incoherent way.

I made myself very clear.

You admit it is true.

I do not have paranoia…I do have some problems but paranoia is not one of them. This was an unnecessary (attempt at a) put down.

I did not take offense; I am just pointing them out. If you have such disgust for Christians, why do you spend most of your time on religious discussion board? Can you answer that? No you can’t or you won’t…….

You posted what you believed …I countered showing you that your beliefs are also based on faith, and you cannot prove them either. To which you responded with insults.


So, now I have responded to your questions,I hope I have answered them to your satisfaction although they had nothing to do with the topic... will you answer me now?

Why is it you cannot prove what you believe? Yet you insist Christian should prove what we believe. You have been told a thousand times, and you have told us a thousand times... it is our belief, it is what we believe and it is by faith. We already know that, you do not need to keep telling us. We know it is by faith; we keep trying to get you to understand that we know it is by faith. Christianity is based on faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. There is a reason we cannot prove it…. then we would not need faith. Faith is the answer to the question you keep asking, in fact you answer your own questions... the answer is faith. We know it is what we believe, we know it is our belief. We have told you we that we cannot explain spiritual things to a carnal mind, you are just incapable of understanding it. That is not a put down; it is a simple fact. A person cannot explain faith to someone who does not want to understand or believe.

Spiritual things must be spiritually discerned. We do not need to prove it to you or anyone. Faith is what pleases God, because if we could prove it, we would not need faith, and we could not please God. This is what I believe. I know it is what I believe, and I cannot prove it. There is no proof. That is the way God intended it; we are saved by grace through faith. Without faith,…we could not be saved, and we could not please God. We do not have to prove to you that there is a God Who created the universe and everything in it. We do not have to prove God to you. We should be allowed the courtesy to discuss our beliefs without someone constantly telling us that is what we believe and there is no objective supported evidence…we do not care about evidence. We have the force of faith; and that is more powerful and wonderful than ‘evidence’.

The Word says: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. So then faith is our evidence.

I am not saying you do not have the right to post here, or even that you are not welcome, but to constantly repeat to us, what we have agreed with you that you are right, is childish taunting. It’s like, OK we know already…what’s your point? Why don't you ask what you really want to know?



However…you say you believe in science, you gave Pascal’s wager as your objective supported evidence, you believe in history, You told me why you did not believe in the OT or the NT. To which I responded politely trying to explain these things to you. You did not respond to any of it, except to insult me, or at least you tried.

Now, do you have a responds to these:

you said Theism, you and all your theist peers can not provide any objective supported evidence towards the existence of their deity. I said Theistic evolution, less commonly known as evolutionary creationism, is the general opinion that some or all classical religious teachings about God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God) and creation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_according_to_Genesis) are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution). Theistic evolution is not a theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory) in the scientific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science) sense, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to some religious interpretations. In this way, theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who deny the conflict thesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis) regarding the relationship between religion and science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_religion_and_science); that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not be contradictory. Psychology provides good reasons why the idea of a "fatherlike" god entity and of an afterlife helps many people to come to terms with disaster, illness, death, and the wish to see again those who over the years fell away. So, this is supposed to be evidence. Good reasons are not proof. Good reasons are opinions; it is what they believe. But you do not explain what those ‘good reasons’ were.
Why would that be a bad thing anyway?

Pascal himself didn't address the question of other religions in his section on the wager, presumably because throughout the rest of Pensées (and in his other works) he examined alternatives, like stoicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism), paganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism), Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), and Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism), and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.

And your response is...

You said: About half of all my posts are on the technical boards, and about all others are on the members discussion boards, with most of those on this religious discussions board. My response to this is: why?My response to that is : WHY NOT?
You AND I are both allowed to post on this discussion board. So why do I have to defend my presence and activities here?


... There must be something that keeps drawing you here as you keep asking for proof, it seems to me you are searching for a reason to believe.
My line of approach is NOT to ask for proof for your religious BELIEF. I always first ask everyone to acknowledge that whatever he/she religiously believes is just that : BELIEF !
Only when they refuse to do that in previous posts, I ask them to back up their statements by providing proof for whatever they CLAIM to be true.

As to your "babbling" : I never have seen you to be a clear and meaningful communicator. You even at times use "misrepresentations of the truth" to support your own statements. (For instance with "You admit it is true" - No I did NOT do that ! ).


If you have such disgust for Christians, why do you spend most of your time on religious discussion board? Can you answer that? No you can't or you won't…….
Another "misrepresentation of the truth"! Yes I can, and yes I did. Many times before.

Besides that this is a RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION BOARD where Christians have the same status as I have (we are all no more than participants in discussions on religion), I have no disgust for Christians at all. From me you may BELIEVE what ever suits you. My basic message here is that whatever you BELIEVE that does not elevate your views into reality. To convince others from what you BELIEVE to be reality is up to you and co-BELIEVERS who have to prove that what they BELIEVE is reality. And in that process I do not have to prove the opposite.

===

You can make your posts as long as you want. But I limit my responses.
Specially as I note that you still did not reply to the two simple questions I asked you :

- What TOTAL NONSENSE is that ?
- WHAT FOLLOWING are you babbling about?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

·

My response to that is : WHY NOT?
You AND I are both allowed to post on this discussion board. So why do I have to defend my presence and activities here?


My line of approach is NOT to ask for proof for your religious BELIEF. I always first ask everyone to acknowledge that whatever he/she religiously believes is just that : BELIEF !
Only when they refuse to do that in previous posts, I ask them to back up their statements by providing proof for whatever they CLAIM to be true.

As to your "babbling" : I never have seen you to be a clear and meaningful communicator. You even at times use "misrepresentations of the truth" to support your own statements. (For instance with "You admit it is true" - No I did NOT do that ! ).


Another "misrepresentation of the truth"! Yes I can, and yes I did. Many times before.

Besides that this is a RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION BOARD where Christians have the same status as I have (we are all no more than participants in discussions on religion), I have no disgust for Christians at all. From me you may BELIEVE what ever suits you. My basic message here is that whatever you BELIEVE that does not elevate your views into reality. To convince others from what you BELIEVE to be reality is up to you and co-BELIEVERS who have to prove that what they BELIEVE is reality. And in that process I do not have to prove the opposite.

===

You can make your posts as long as you want. But I limit my responses.
Specially as I note that you still did not reply to the two simple questions I asked you :

- What TOTAL NONSENSE is that ?
- WHAT FOLLOWING are you babbling about?
I did answer those questions but you still have not responded to these...



· Now, do you have a responds to these:

you said Theism, you and all your theist peers can not provide any objective supported evidence towards the existence of their deity. I said Theistic evolution, less commonly known as evolutionary creationism, is the general opinion that some or all classical religious teachings about God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God) and creation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_according_to_Genesis) are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution). Theistic evolution is not a theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory) in the scientific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science) sense, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to some religious interpretations. In this way, theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who deny the conflict thesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis) regarding the relationship between religion and science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_religion_and_science); that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not be contradictory. Psychology provides good reasons why the idea of a "fatherlike" god entity and of an afterlife helps many people to come to terms with disaster, illness, death, and the wish to see again those who over the years fell away. So, this is supposed to be evidence. Good reasons are not proof. Good reasons are opinions; it is what they believe. But you do not explain what those ‘good reasons’ were.
Why would that be a bad thing anyway?

Pascal himself didn't address the question of other religions in his section on the wager, presumably because throughout the rest of Pensées (and in his other works) he examined alternatives, like stoicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism), paganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism), Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), and Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism), and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../amhd_imgs/reputation/reputation_pos.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/tsila1777.html#latest_rep)

As to your "babbling" : I never have seen you to be a clear and meaningful communicator.:confused:

And this is not babbling?:confused:

It is just your opinion, your belief, and that means nothing to me.
You keep trying, Cred, but you cannot get to me.:p


I have never seen you answer the hard questions.
:rolleyes:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../amhd_imgs/reputation/reputation_pos.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/tsila1777.html#latest_rep)

As to your "babbling" : I never have seen you to be a clear and meaningful communicator.:confused:

And this is not babbling?:confused:

It is just your opinion, your belief, and that means nothing to me.
You keep trying, Cred, but you cannot get to me.:p
I have never seen you answer the hard questions.
:rolleyes:


How long before you stop trying to get to him?

How long before you stop trying to get to him?

He gave me a list of reasons he does not believe in God,these were suppose to be proof that God is not real.

Pascal himself didn't address the question of other religions in his section on the wager, presumably because throughout the rest of Pensées (and in his other works) he examined alternatives, like stoicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism), paganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism), Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), and Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism), and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.

I showed him that every one of them were just his belief and were fallible, and even that those he holds in such high regard actually acknowledged that the Christian belief has the most credibility. He chose to ignore all this and attack me with childish tactics to throw me off the subject.

He keeps asking for proof, I was trying to show him in that post that even though we cannot ‘prove’ God is real and we can only go by our faith, the ‘evidence’ he gave to prove his opinions were actually helpful in proving our faith has some validity even in his world.

We have told him that we cannot prove God, and we know it is only our belief. How many times does he need this explained to him? He insists that we have to ‘prove’ our belief; I am just curious why he wants proof? Is it because he wants to believe? Is he looking for a reason to believe? I think so. I also know we do not have to prove our belief, just because he says so.

I do not understand why you ask me this. I am being much kinder to him than I feel toward him, but the Holy Spirit restrains me to a point. I was in the past a hateful B, and much worse, but God saved me anyway. I am trying to be a better person; I do not always succeed. I am sorry if I offended you or Cred, but he insists on getting personal with me, attacking my mental status, my writing abilities and making fun, mocking me, all completely off topic.

I never said I was perfect and in this life, I never will be in the flesh. However, I am perfect in Christ that is what I believe. I believe Christ died for the ungodly that included the whole world. Those that do not accept Christ and His sacrifice will miss eternal life and inherit eternal damnation.
If I can ‘get to him’ in a way that causes him to ‘think’ about it, that would be a good thing would it not?

Tsila, you are making excuses, sorry, but it's true.

The fact is that you will not convince Cred of God without Objective Supportive Evidence, therefore, any attempt to prove God by other means is pointless. You seem to remember everything else he's said, did the request for OSE slip by?

Just because he doesn't believe, doesn't mean that you have to listen to his reasoning. You believe, isn't that enough?

Of course you cannot prove God, I don't think anyone can, that's why it's a belief. I believe too, I understand what belief entails.

Is he looking for a reason to believe? Maybe, with OSE, but not by any other means.

I see this thread being closed very soon if this continues. Both of you are attacking each other, feeding off your differing opinions. I understand that too. I've fought with Cred before, but I won't anymore, I can't provide the evidence he seeks, so why fight about it? Can he be rude, yes, he can, so can allot of other people, myself included, and you as well. You're giving as good as you get dear, and that's how it will continue, until the thread is closed.

I'm not Christian, so maybe I'm wrong, but there is a difference between spreading the "word" of God and shoving it down someone's throat. Especially if that person has repeatedly told you that they do not believe. This will not end the way you want. In fact, the longer you continue posting, the more frustrated you will be, that's a fact.


If I can 'get to him' in a way that causes him to 'think' about it, that would be a good thing would it not?

If you "get to him"? Can I ask you something? Is he "getting" to you? Are you going to stop believing in God because of Creds posts? If not, then what makes you think he will believe because of yours? Is it a struggle between you two? Who can be the rudest, who can sling the most mud? Well, my question is this, who will turn the other cheek, and walk away?

Will it be the Christian or the Atheist?

If you "get to him"? Can I ask you something? Is he "getting" to you? Are you going to stop believing in God because of Creds posts?

No, in fact I think, I will just ignore him, since it is pointless to try to have a normal conversation with him anyway. And I was not making excuses. I really wanted to know what he had say, but he won't say... so you're right what's the point?

Glad to hear it. I really am just trying to step in before War insues. I value your opinion, and I respect your right to believe what you want.

No one can take away what you believe, what's in your heart. Just remember that and you'll be fine.

God Bless. :)

Glad to hear it. I really am just trying to step in before War insues. I value your opinion, and I respect your right to believe what you want. No one can take away what you believe, what's in your heart. Just remember that and you'll be fine.
No need to "step in". I also have decide to return to my fixed routine to point out what is based on BELIEF and what is based on OSE (Objective Supported Evidence).
As I have always stated : from me anyone may BELIEVE whatever suits him or her. What is however incorrect is suggesting or assuming - even on this board - that what one believes is also the truth (or reality, or correct, or factual, or proper, etc.)
What one BELIEVES may be correct, but if it is that requires OSE, not belief, or other claims, or suggestive support !

Nobody has for me to prove that whatever god(s) exist(s). But if you don't or can't prove that (and nobody can), than at least do not make statements that suggest that or include such a claim.

Your topic line is excellent. Fine that you believe that. But actually he did not do that. Jesus was a Jew, who preached mainly to Jews!

:rolleyes:

·

Fine that you believe that. But actually he did not do that. Jesus was a Jew, who preached mainly to Jews!

Prove it!!

Sorry Altenweg

Tsila, you don't have to be sorry, it's your choice, and you do have the freedom to choose.

Cred, I truly do understand where you are coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I will admit that people basing their beliefs on the bible (a man written book) is not proof that God exists. Quoting the bible isn't proof.

What Cred is requesting is that you use the word belief, not fact, and it is indeed a belief. No one has ever been able to prove the existence of God, it is faith and faith alone, but faith isn't fact.

Tsila,

You do have a right to your belief, nes pas? If you do, then why do you deny others their beliefs? Because you are Christian, it is your mission in life to spread the word of God, because the bible tells you so, because your Church tells you so, a man written book, and a man run institution.

Without the Bible, without Church, what do you have? Would you still believe? Why do you feel the need to preach to someone who has admitted that he does not believe in God? Is it to save him, or yourself?

Remember, I am a believer, perhaps more so than some, as I do not base my beliefs on the bible or Church, but on pure belief, feeling in my heart and soul that God is real. I don't need a book or building a man or congregation to tell me so.

Do I have proof? Of course not, you can't prove God, it's not possible, that's why it is a belief.

To both of you,

I'm sorry I stepped in, I really was just trying to prevent another thread from being closed down.

And I also didn't see anyone getting closer to resolving this, so I tried to end it peacefully.

Having said that, the crux is on you, if this is what you choose.

Peace. :)

Cred, I truly do understand where you are coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I will admit that people basing their beliefs on the bible (a man written book) is not proof that God exists. Quoting the bible isn't proof.
What Cred is requesting is that you use the word belief, not fact, and it is indeed a belief. No one has ever been able to prove the existence of God, it is faith and faith alone, but faith isn't fact.
That describes my position rather well !
All I ask is not to post what people BELIEVE to be true as if it is an actual fact.
That this is a religious discussion board is no reason to make wild claims.

As to the right of others to "spread the word of God" : besides that the bible has never been proved to be the word of god, I have no problem at all with Christians trying to spread that "word". Fine with me.
But not ad nauseum to those who clearly have indicated before that they are not interested in that "word". There is nothing in the bible that demands Christians to spread the "word" against people's wishes.

:rolleyes:

·

Fine that you believe that. But actually he did not do that. Jesus was a Jew, who preached mainly to Jews!

Prove it!!


Jesus was a Jew but I too would like to see the proof that he DID preach mainly to Jews.
That I would think is based on reasonable assumptions and not factual OSE.

Jesus was a Jew but I too would like to see the proof that he DID preach mainly to Jews.
That I would think is based on reasonable assumptions and not factual OSE.

Ah good one No ;)

Jesus preached to anyone who was willing to attend - His loving heart never would cast someone out from his loving teachings because of a label placed on them.

Jesus preached to anyone who was willing to attend
And living and being in the land of the Jews, why would the majority of people he preached to not have been Jewish? The Japanese with their red flag on a stick (to be easily recognized) were not very well known in the Middle East at that time...
So yes : it is a safe and logical suggestion that the majority of people he preached to were Jews.

I never thought I would support tsila1777... but fair is fair !

:)

·

And living and being in the land of the Jews, why would the majority of people he preached to not have been Jewish? The Japanese with their red flag on a stick (to be easily recognized) were not very well known in the Middle East at that time ...
So yes : it is a safe and logical suggestion that the majority of people he preached to were Jews.

I never thought I would support tsila1777 .... but fair is fair !
:)

·

Exactly why I said it is a logical assumption but where is the OSE?

The Bible teaches and Jesus taught to go to the highways and the biways to preach to the JEW AND the gentiles.

Exactly why I said it is a logical assumption but where is the OSE?
The Bible teaches and Jesus taught to go to the highways and the biways to preach to the JEW AND the gentiles.
One needs OSE for essential and fundamental claims. For claims like "God exists" or "Gods exist" or "God is the Creator".
I do not see any need for OSE in case of logical assumptions, which actually hardly matter.
That Jesus (supposing that he existed) taught to Jews and gentiles is - as far as I am concerned - a logical conclusion, without any need for extended evidence. That would be real nitpicking...

:rolleyes:

·

That Jesus (supposing that he existed) taught to Jews and gentiles is - as far as I am concerned - a logical conclusion, without any need for extended evidence. That IS exactly what I am saying--- he did preach to Jews and gentiles alike, --no proof that it was mainly Jews which was the question.

... no proof that it was mainly Jews which was the question.
My post # 143 explains that "mainly" rather logically! Living and being in the land of the Jews, why would the majority of people he preached to not have been Jewish? So yes : it is a safe and logical suggestion that the majority of people he preached to were Jews, and not gentiles and for which I see no need for OSE.

:rolleyes:

·

Agreed it is logical conclusion

agreed it is logical conclusion
We do agree!! At last!! :)

For you ! (http://www.flowerbud.com/images/flowers/bouquet-brights.jpg)

:)

·

Tsila,

You do have a right to your belief, nes pas? If you do, then why do you deny others their beliefs? Because you are Christian, it is your mission in life to spread the word of God, because the bible tells you so, because your Church tells you so, a man written book, and a man run institution.

Not my church, or a man written book or a man run institution...

Without the Bible, without Church, what do you have? Would you still believe? YES! Why do you feel the need to preach to someone who has admitted that he does not believe in God? Is it to save him, or yourself?

Remember, I am a believer, perhaps more so than some, as I do not base my beliefs on the bible or Church, but on pure belief, feeling in my heart and soul that God is real. I don't need a book or building a man or congregation to tell me so.

Do I have proof? Of course not, you can't prove God, it's not possible, that's why it is a belief.

To both of you,

I'm sorry I stepped in, I really was just trying to prevent another thread from being closed down.:)

No need to be sorry... and I wasn't preaching to Cred, he can go to Hell if he wants to, that's his right. why do you think I deny others their beliefs? Why do you think I was preaching to Cred? I know there is no hope for him.

But he said he believes in OSE, I was trying to get him to use his ose to prove what he had written to me... which is what he based his beliefs on, science, psychology etc... but he never would answer my post. He has no answers.

Of course we cannot prove God, it is based on faith. He knows we can't prove it. We've told him so, but we have the right to say what we believe as fact because we believe it is a fact, otherwise we would not believe it.

He could not prove his beliefs so he attacked me personally. Trying to throw me off, I don't care anymore. I know I'm right and so does he, or he would have answered me. I have nothing more to say to Cred.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

T

... Why do you think I was preaching to Cred? I know there is no hope for him. But he said he believes in OSE...
That is not correct. I do not believe in OSE. So I ask you hereby to post where I ever stated that. I would never do that. What is there to believe in OSE? What is there to believe in EVIDENCE?


...which is what he based his beliefs on, science, psychology etc...
Again that is not correct. That is what you suggest. But I never posted that. How can you base beliefs on science, on OSE (see above). And why would you base anything on psychology, on another unsupported belief or assumption? I don't ! So your suggestion is false.


...but he never would answer my post. He has no answer
Once more : that is not correct. I have plenty of answers. But you refused long ago to listen to my valid arguments. So in response I no longer reacted to your requests to post the same over, and over, and over again.


... but we have the right to say what we believe as fact because we believe it is a fact, otherwise we would not believe it.
Once again : that is not correct. You indeed have all the right to believe whatever suits you. And you have the right to do as if what you believe is a fact. But I have the right to question whatever you believe and what you suggest to be right. That you believe something is not the same as that it is right. It may be or - much more likely - is not that way. The burden of proof for that is upon you, the claimant.


He could not prove his beliefs so he attacked me personally.
One more incorrect. I have no religious beliefs. If I attacked you, it was not because I could not produce proof of what you claim me to believe, but because you acted as a brick wall, unwilling to debate or communicate, and reacted repeatedly unfriendly, in clear anger, and with more religious claims. That stated I have no problems offering my apologies for attacking you. But please note that there is a big difference between attacking someone, and pointing out incorrect statements, like I do in this post.


I know I'm right and so does he...
And another incorrect. I am sure you are wrong on that. You have clearly no idea how I think.


I have nothing more to say to Cred.
That is actually an admission of defeat.


Blessed are the peacemakers.
In most cases that is correct. But I do not count you as one of them (neither do I claim that description for myself). I see more in logic and trust in my own capacities. Unlike you I also know that making unsupported claims does not support one's arguments.

:)

·

Altenweq,

I'm sorry I stepped in, I really was just trying to prevent another thread from being closed down.https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../images/smilies/smile.gif

No need to be sorry... and I wasn't preaching to Cred, he can go to Hell if he wants to, that's his right. why do you think I deny others their beliefs? Why do you think I was preaching to Cred? I know there is no hope for him.

But he said he believes in OSE, I was trying to get him to use his ose to prove what he had written to me... which is what he based his beliefs on, science, psychology etc... but he never would answer my post. He has no answers.

Of course we cannot prove God, it is based on faith. He knows we can't prove it. We've told him so, but we have the right to say what we believe as fact because we believe it is a fact, otherwise we would not believe it.

He could not prove his beliefs so he attacked me personally. Trying to throw me off, I don't care anymore. I know I'm right and so does he, or he would have answered me. I have nothing more to say to Cred and his OSTD.

Blessed are the peacemakers, and you are a peacemaker. Blessings.

T

When I talk to Cred I specify setting aside religion, and things like that so that he can not lump it all together but he still manages to mix it all together to 'win'

Unfortunately true...

Tsila what you are trying to do is hopeless because all that and MUCH MUCH more has been explained to Cred0 time and time again for years but he always just keeps proclaiming the same things and walks away declaring himself in so many words *the winner*

In an indirect way yes. This is a religion board and it means that all the statements are 'beliefs', coming from faith. But he always says "That is YOUR belief", " You have no proof of" so and so on. He should once and for all understand that!

In an indirect way yes. This is a religion board and it means that all the statements are 'beliefs', coming from faith. But he always says "That is YOUR belief", " You have no proof of" so and so on. He should once and for all understand that!

Exactly I have said so many times in so many ways ---
Notice at the top off the page it says Religious Discussions
Of course that is what we believe this IS a religious discussion board where Christians say WHAT they believe. It is not the FACT board, it is not the ''prove it'' board, it is not the science board, it is not the atheist board it IS the religious board
Religion isn't a topic for "argument" - to prove wrong or right, but to openly discuss.
So yes anything we say is our claim.

RELIGION = Believe IN, believe, belief
Get it yet??

and he continues to insist that we always start with "I believe... ''

... MUCH MUCH more has been explained to Cred0 time and time again for years but he always just keeps proclaiming the same things and walks away declaring himself in so many words *the winner*
Please note that explaining something zillions of time does not make it reality.
And nowhere did I proclaim myself "the winner". All I stated is that the statement "I have nothing more to say to Cred." is actually an admission of defeat. Once more you are trying to twist what I stated into something entirely different.

You know what my posts are about : you may believe from me whatever you want to believe. But that you believe something, does not make that factual - for instance the statement "God exists" is a claim, a claim you have to prove first ! I do not ask people WHY they believe that.

Please note that my reactions clearly pointed out where tsila1777 "adapted" the truth, and that none of my reactions were refuted.

:)

·

I didn't say you proclaim you're a winner I said in so many words
Meaning actions speak louder than words.

Also saying over and over zillions of times that we should not have to say "I believe...
Before what we believe on a religious discussion board may not make it so but your saying we need to say it before we state our beliefs doesn't make it so either

Tsila what you are trying to do is hopeless because all that and MUCH MUCH more has been explained to Cred0 time and time again for years but he always just keeps proclaiming the same things and walks away declaring himself in so many words *the winner*

What I was trying to do was get Cred to answer me, which he could not do, because he knows I used his own ‘beliefs’ to prove him wrong.
Cred can do or say whatever he pleases except tell me what to say on this board. His nonsense is boring and foolish. I do not care to discuss anything with him anymore because he is void of understanding and twists everything until it does not even resemble what the poster actually said, and then he makes unintelligent replies to his own mangled interpretation; which I will not even bother reading anymore.
As someone said, this is a religious discussion board, not a “prove it” board.
God’s Word is all the proof I need, if anyone needs more proof, than they should go look for it. God’s Word is final authority in my life. The Word of God says and as for as I am concerned that makes it a fact.
Psalm 14:1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Christ died for the ungodly. He came to seek and save those that are lost. His Blood has never lost its power, to cleanse those who believe, of all sin. It is by faith through grace; faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

God is love, and we are to love even those who have declared themselves our enemies, but we do not have to associate with them.

Peace and love

Exactly I have said so many times in so many ways ---
Notice at the top off the page it says Religious Discussions
Of course that is what we believe this IS a religious discussion board where Christians say WHAT they believe. It is not the FACT board, it is not the ''prove it'' board, it is not the science board, it is not the atheist board it IS the religious board
Religion isn't a topic for "argument" - to prove wrong or right, but to openly discuss.
So yes anything we say is our claim.

RELIGION = Believe IN, believe, belief
Get it yet?????

and he continues to insist that we always start out with "I believe.....''


Should we please God or man?

Excellent post. I would like to ask 'who is he that he thinks he can insist anything' rhetorical question. This board is here to discuss religion, our beliefs. Maybe the only way is for all of us who come here for serious discussion, is to ignore him.:rolleyes::D:(:eek::)

Peace and ease

Blessed are the peacemakers, and you are a peacemaker. Blessings.

Thanks for saying that, but not really. I will be the first to admit that I am usually the first to jump into a fight. It's a human trait, one that we all possess, one that I'm trying very hard to change.


I know I'm right and so does he, or he would have answered me.

I'm just trying to point out that statements like these are what brings on a fight. If this comment was directed at you, you would also defend yourself, isn't that true?


This board is here to discuss religion, our beliefs.

Actually, no, this board is to discuss all views on religion, whether you believe or not. This board was actually started for atheists and the like, so that they too would have a place to go to discuss what they believe in.

The Christianity board is better suited for discussing your beliefs with like minded people. Less chance of arguments there, because everyone that goes to that forum is a Christian and does believe.

Quoting the bible and such will not make non-believers believe, it isn't fact, it's a man written book that Christians and other religions use to boost their faith. That's fine, and your right, but not everyone feels the same way.

For some they only believe what they can see, and since we cannot see God, well, those people choose to not believe. Science does explain allot, wereas the bible does not. Hell fire and brimstone, the end of the world if we don't obey. To some, that's not a very savory outcome. Others have had religion forced upon them all their lives, is it any wonder that they chose a different path?

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. I do know my beliefs, and that's fine with me, I don't need anyone else to believe what I do, nor do I need confirmation of my beliefs, they are what they are.

I'm just wondering, not accusing, but wondering, why do you continue to try to prove God, or to ask for evidence that he doesn't exist? Are you trying to confirm your own beliefs?

Tsila, I will back down now, just had to comment on a few things. See, I told you I'm not a peacemaker.;) I'm just trying to point out a few truths, the way I see it, not necessarily the way it actually is. I wish you luck, and hope it all works out in the end.

Peace.

With all respect tsila1777 : you continue making claims about me for which you have not one single iota of supporting evidence. Please stop doing so. I suggest you continue with your topic instead of posting adaptations of the truth involving me. You seem to lack the decency to support your personal attacks with evidence, even after clear refutations from my side. I will keep reacting to your attacks involving me.


What I was trying to do was get Cred to answer me, which he could not do, because he knows I used his own ‘beliefs’ to prove him wrong.
Incorrect : I already told you that I did not reply to you for entire other reasons. And you CONTINUE to post the same wild claim without support, regardless of my refutation and explanation.


Cred can do or say whatever he pleases except tell me what to say on this board. I never told you what to say on this board. I told you that what you believe is not the same as reality. If may feel that way, but to be that, you have to prove that. Ergo the suggestion to precede claim with "I believe" is valid.


His (Cred) nonsense is boring and foolish.That line is an insult, which is against the board rules.


I do not care to discuss anything with him anymore because he is void of understanding and twists everything until it does not even resemble what the poster actually said, and then he makes unintelligent replies to his own mangled interpretation; which I will not even bother reading anymore.Incorrect : I am not void of understanding. Your statement is a wild unsupported claim.
I already told you that I did not reply to you for entire other reasons. And you CONTINUE to post the same wild claim without support, regardless of my refutation and explanation.


As someone said, this is a religious discussion board, not a “prove it” board.Whatever discussion board this is, I did not ask you to prove whatever you believe. I suggest to precede every unsupported religious claim with "I believe that", or - alternatively - to support each wild claim. My approach is not against your personal beliefs : from me you may believe whatever you want.


God’s Word is all the proof I need, if anyone needs more proof, than they should go look for it. God’s Word is final authority in my life. The Word of God says and as for as I am concerned that makes it a fact.It is not about whatever is good enough for you. It is about religious claims to be posted as if these claims are factual - for which no evidence exists.

:)

·

Thanks for saying that, but not really. I will be the first to admit that I am usually the first to jump into a fight. It's a human trait, one that we all possess, one that I'm trying very hard to change.

I'm just trying to point out that statements like these are what brings on a fight. If this comment was directed at you, you would also defend yourself, isn't that true?


Actually, no, this board is to discuss all views on religion, whether you believe or not. This board was actually started for atheists and the like, so that they too would have a place to go to discuss what they believe in.

I did not mean Christian beliefs, I meant 'our' beliefs…all religion is based on belief…isn't it?

The Christianity board is better suited for discussing your beliefs with like minded people. Less chance of arguements there, because everyone that goes to that forum is a Christian and does believe.


Are you suggesting I am not welcome here? I didn't come here to argue, I came here to discuss beliefs.


Quoting the bible and such will not make non-believers believe, it isn't fact, it's a man written book that Christians and other religions use to boost their faith. That's fine, and your right, but not everyone feels the same way.


Actually, 'I believe' the gospel is what has brought many to Christ…but I guess you're right, not on this board.


For some they only believe what they can see, and since we cannot see God, well, those people choose to not believe. Science does explain allot, wereas the bible does not. Hell fire and brimstone, the end of the world if we don't obey. To some, that's not a very savory outcome. Others have had religion forced upon them all their lives, is it any wonder that they chose a different path?

They are free to choose.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. I do know my beliefs, and that's fine with me, I don't need anyone else to believe what I do, nor do I need confirmation of my beliefs, they are what they are.

I'm just wondering, not accusing, but wondering, why do you continue to try to prove God, or to ask for evidence that he doesn't exist? Are you trying to confirm your own beliefs?

No, and we do not seem to be communication very well. How am I trying to prove God? I thought this was a religious board. If I am asked to prove that God does exist, then why can't I ask that person to prove He doesn't?

Tsila, I will back down now, just had to comment on a few things. See, I told you I'm not a peacemaker.;) I'm just trying to point out a few truths, the way I see it, not necessarily the way it actually is. I wish you luck, and hope it all works out in the end.

Peace.

It's not the first time I was wrong about a person. And I know it will all work out well in the end….

Exactly I have said so many times in so many ways ---
Notice at the top off the page it says Religious Discussions
Of course that is what we believe this IS a religious discussion board where Christians say WHAT they believe. It is not the FACT board, it is not the ''prove it'' board, it is not the science board, it is not the atheist board it IS the religious board
Religion isn't a topic for "argument" - to prove wrong or right, but to openly discuss.
So yes anything we say is our claim.

RELIGION = Believe IN, believe, belief
Get it yet?????

and he continues to insist that we always start out with "I believe.....''

I think I have been asked to leave and go to the Christian board where it is better suited to my beliefs. Do you think if I started my own discussion, I would be welcome... oh wait... nevermind.

Tsila, you are correct, it is belief, I never argued that. It's what we believe in, or rather, why we believe that I was trying to discuss.

Of course your are welcome here, but your comment on another post made it sound like you believed only Christians were welcome here, that's not the case and simply what I was trying to explain. Posting here on the religious discussion board leaves you open to everyone and their beliefs, therefore, of course, you will get people who do not believe in God, or who do not believe in the bible, religion etc. I was stating that if you don't want to listen to posts about God not existing then the Christianity board is a better place to go to.

How are you trying to prove God? Do I really need to answer that? By saying things like, I'm right, you're wrong, that's how. It's almost like poking someone and then running away and saying na, na, na, boo, boo, I win, you can't catch me. The only difference, you aren't running, nor should you if you wish to stand up for your beliefs, but you still have to accept that many will not change their minds.

You are correct, God cannot be proven or disproven, that's why believing in God is all about belief and faith, not everyone has that faith, for whatever reason, and they do want proof or seek proof of his existence. It's not your job to prove that God exists, neither is it anyone else's job to prove he doesn't.

Really, I don't want to fight with you, just stating my opinion and what I believe, that's all. I guess I'm not doing a very good job of that if you keep quoting me to state where I'm wrong.

Good luck to you, I won't come back to this thread, I'll leave you to your discussion.

I think I have been asked to leave and go to the Christian board where it is better suited to my beliefs. Do you think if I started my own discussion, I would be welcome... oh wait... nevermind.

Okay, now I'm getting upset. I promised I wouldn't come back but this post made that impossible.

I never, ever asked you to leave and go the Christian board, this is what I said;


The Christianity board is better suited for discussing your beliefs with like minded people. Less chance of arguments there, because everyone that goes to that forum is a Christian and does believe.

It's comments like this that make me think you want a fight. I really honestly tried my best to get through, but I guess that's not going to happen.

If you continue misreading what every one says and putting your own spin on it then of course you are going to get an argument. I know I don't like to be misquoted, I doubt anyone else does either.

There goes my attempt to discuss things rationally. Darnit, and I was doing so well. :(

Oh Alty! Cheer up dear! Tsila is only trying to share his views and also receive feedbacks.

Oh, just a slight thing... the bible may have been written by men, but (all that follows is my belief, be careful!! ) I think that God wrote through them. Don't you find it extraordinary how different books of the bible were written from different times and different places, and yet, go in perfect accordance? That is one of the reasons for my belief in Christ.

Yeah I don't believe Tsila is wanting to cause problems just may not know how to take you.

... the bible may have been written by men, but (all that follows is my belief, be careful!!!) i think that God wrote through them. Don't you find it extraordinary how different books of the bible were written from different times and different places, and yet, go in perfect accordance?
"in perfect accordance"? The Bible seems more to be one big collection of mistakes, faults, and contradictions. And all of these - accordingly to what you believe - by a deity that is omniscient, supra-natural, and perfect.

So either God's guidance was extremely poor , or God did not check if his words were recorded properly (in both cases neither a perfect nor an omniscient deity).

===


... I don't believe Tsila is wanting to cause problems ...
Another belief for which the real actions tell another story...

:D

·

Okay, now I'm getting upset. I promised I wouldn't come back but this post made that impossible.

I never, ever asked you to leave and go the Christian board, this is what I said;
Quote:
The Christianity board is better suited for discussing your beliefs with like minded people. Less chance of arguments there, because everyone that goes to that forum is a Christian and does believe.
Ok maybe I took this suggestion the wrong way, but it was a suggestion wasn't it? And yes, it did hurt my feelings, and if I didn't care about your opinion, it would not have hurt me. Cred cannot hurt me. But I respected you, and your comments.

The written word often comes across as harsh, and I feel you have said many harsh things to me, and I ignored some, but it kept getting worse, to where you questioned my belief. So, being human, I responded.

Obviously, I have misunderstood some of your posts. Perhaps, you have misunderstood some of mine. Is that possible?

My 'feud' with Cred was pointless, we are miles apart and he did not come here to 'discuss' the topic, he came to mock and I did get caught up in that. It got ridiculous on both our parts. And others were drawn into it. Including you, and it seemed to me, that you were taking his side against me…. That is the best way I know how to describe it, perhaps not the correct way. Bare with me…..


Why do you continue to try to prove God, or to ask for evidence that he doesn't exist? Are you trying to confirm your own beliefs?

I think I answered this. Cred has been asking for proof of God for 8 years, why can't I ask him for proof? My purpose, the point of this was to show him that both are impossible, so why can we not just get past this and have a discussion. For 8 years he has asked that question…(Is he trying to prove his unbelief?)

Why is it if I ask the same question from him, you suggest I need to confirm my belief. By you asking me this question, it is as if you are suggesting I do not really believe…that is not at all what I am doing. Is it possible that I put a spin on this alsp and misunderstood what you were saying here?

I honestly have never deliberately put a spin on anything anyone has said on here, I answered according to what I thought was being said or inferred.

Of course your are welcome here, but your comment on another post made it sound like you believed only Christians were welcome here,

I explained that, when I said 'our', I did not mean 'just Christians' I mean 'a place to discuss our religious beliefs'. If someone does not believe in God, then is that not still a 'belief'? That is a serious question.

How are you trying to prove God? Do I really need to answer that? By saying things like, I'm right, you're wrong, that's how.

The thing I was talking about being right about was a post in which I responded to Cred and he took the first few lines to attack me and ignored the rest. I was right that he would not respond to this particular post and he knows it.

This is the post that Cred continued to ignore except for the first few lines, he wrote.
C: Pascal provided with his wager the logical conclusion………….

Me:Pascal himself ….and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.

C:Theism, you and all your theist peers can not provide any objective supported evidence towards the existence of their deity.

Me:Theistic evolution …they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not be contradictory.

He kept asking for proof, and his own 'proof against' showed just as much 'proof for' in my opinion. But he never would respond or discuss these things. This is the 'I'm right and he knows it' part, the fact that he would not respond. Not that my belief was right and his wrong, which of course I do believe…otherwise I would believe what he does…Of course I believe I am right…but that wasn't was I was talking about in this.

I will apologize to you for anything I have said that seemed harsh or unkind to you. I seriously do not want to be at odds with you. I would like to think my first impression of you was correct. If I may, I would like to write to you in a private message and explain something to you about me. If it will stay personal and private; would that be OK?

Yeah I don't believe Tsila is wanting to cause problems just may not know how to take you.

Thanks for your support, :)and you are most certainly correct. I do not want to cause problems, and I don't want others to come here for the purpose of causing problems.

Everyone is allowed to believe what he or she wants to believe. But this is a discussion board, not a ‘this is not true’ board. If one believes something is not true, they should discuss it, not simply state as fact that it is not true, but give reasons why they believe it is not true.

Or am I mistaken on this?

Oh Alty! Cheer up dear! Tsila is only trying to share his views and also receive feedbacks.

Oh, just a slight thing... the bible may have been written by men, but (all that follows is my belief, be careful!! ) I think that God wrote through them. Don't you find it extraordinary how different books of the bible were written from different times and different places, and yet, go in perfect accordance? That is one of the reasons for my belief in Christ.

That is also my reason for my belief in Christ.

True, I am trying to share my beliefs, and my beliefs are based on the Bible, which is the uncompromising Word of God. So why should I not be allowed to post Scripture?

Anyone can read the Bible and find parts that ‘seem’ to be compromised, but if they study it closely, they will find it does not contradict Itself. Having the wisdom of God and the Holy Spirit also helps one to understand the true meaning of the Word.


There is a Scripture that states, Judus hanged himself.

There is another Scripture that states, Jesus said, “go and do thou likewise”

But these two Scriptures have nothing to do with each other.

God would not allow His Word to be corrupted. There are many translations, and many words have many different translations. However, word searches and intense study will reveal the truth. I believe God’s Word is absolute Truth. That is my belief and that is all I can post here. If it offenses someone, well……………They can post their beliefs and post why they believe it, and what they base their beliefs on.

Blessings to you.

They can post their beliefs and post why they believe it, and what they base their beliefs on.Cool. Based on the Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster here are some things that I try to follow:

The Eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts"

1. I'd really rather you didn't act like a sanctimonious holier-than-thou when describing my noodly goodness. If some people don't believe in me, that's okay. Really, I'm not that vain. Besides, this isn't about them so don't change the subject.

2. I'd really rather you didn't use my existence as a means to oppress, subjugate, punish, eviscerate, and/or, you know, be mean to others. I don't require sacrifices, and purity is for drinking water, not people.

3. I'd really rather you didn't judge people for the way they look, or how they dress, or the way they talk, or, well, just play nice, okay? Oh, and get this into your thick heads: woman = person. man = person. Samey = Samey. One is not better than the other, unless we're talking about fashion and I'm sorry, but I gave that to women and some guys who know the difference between teal and fuchsia.

4. I'd really rather you didn't indulge in conduct that offends yourself, or your willing, consenting partner of legal age AND mental maturity. As for anyone who might object, I think the expression is "go screw yourself," unless they find that offensive in which case they can turn off the TV for once and go for a walk for a change.

5. I'd really rather you didn't challenge the bigoted, misogynistic, hateful ideas of others on an empty stomach. Eat, then go after the buggers.

6. I'd really rather you didn't build multi million-dollar synagogues / churches / temples / mosques / shrines to my noodly goodness when the money could be better spent (take your pick):
1. Ending poverty
2. Curing diseases
3. Living in peace, loving with passion, and lowering the cost of cable
I might be a complex-carbohydrate omniscient being, but I enjoy the simple things in life. I ought to know. I AM the creator.

7. I'd really rather you didn't go around telling people I talk to you. You're not that interesting. Get over yourself. And I told you to love your fellow man, can't you take a hint?

8. I'd really rather you didn't do unto others as you would have them do unto you if you are into, um, stuff that uses a lot of leather/lubricant/vaseline. If the other person is into it, however (pursuant to #4), then have at it, take pictures, and for the love of Mike, wear a CONDOM! Honestly, it's a piece of rubber. If I didn't want it to feel good when you did it I would have added spikes, or something.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about...

http://www.smarttelevisionalliance.org/images/content/pagebuilder/10924.jpg

NK, thanks for lightening the mood, I think we all needed that.

Tsila, it is clear that both of us misunderstood each other, for that I apologize. It's sometimes very hard to type what you want to say and have it be understood, the tone of voice, facial expressions, they are a large part of communication, and not available here.

I respect everyone's right to believe what they want to believe, even if it's not believing in God. I am trying to voice my beliefs, which of course are not the same as a Christians beliefs, please try to respect that, I've had 37 years of life that lead to my beliefs, they will not be changed, this I know.

The religious discussion board is a place to discuss all aspects of religion, even not believing in religion, so let's all try to express our differences respectfully. I'm sorry I got mad, I really am working on not allowing my anger to take over. NoHelp, you know me, I'm a loud mouth German, and that part of me often escapes, haven't gotten a handle on her yet. ;)

Now, to keep things light, a little bit of my childhood, and yes, my parents always meant this as a joke;

My mom and dad always said that there were more then 10 commandments, there where actually 11 but the last one was dismissed. So, what is the 11th commandment? Never get caught. ;)

Remember, it's a joke. :)

NK, thanks for lightening the mood, I think we all needed that.It wasn't a joke - those are things that I believe in.

It wasn't a joke - those are things that I believe in.

And they are good rules to follow. It was the spaghetti monster part that made me giggle. :)

Oh yea that... :) It's just a means to an end.

God is sovereign...

I read 18 pages and I haven't seen one new argument that hasn't been broached regarding this topic.

Christians have their faith and the Non believes have their... You guessed it "faith". Because it all boils down to what you believe. I can rant about people going to hell, I can be holier then thow, I can try to push some unintentional agenda but its not the point.

For me it's a very simple truth. Something I had mentioned many months ago. If I am wrong then I had nothing to loose. Nothing... If I die tomorrow and it was all some sick joked history played on humanity then it is what it is. (not what I believe but you get the point). If I am right then I will enter the kingdom of heaven. Now how does it effect how I live? I am called to spread the word. Does that mean people, man, humanity will except the word? No...

I will live my life as a model and strive to be more christ"like". Do I think Christians are perfect? No.. Never will be.. Never will we have sinless perfection.

God sent his only son to die on the cross to pay for our sins. Why? Because in the old testament the rule laid out for man to follow were so rigid that they could not be satisfied. Jesus was sacrificed to pay the bounty for all man. Now, there is only one way to the father... That is believing the that jesus died for our sins and excepting him into your heart.

Jesus died for everyone.. All it requires is faith. Unfortunately though if you don't believe and repent you have no salvation.

Smoked,

Excellent post and I completely agree.

I love this:
In science, theories are abandoned when they conflict with reality

NK, thanks for lightening the mood, I think we all needed that.

Tsila, it is clear that both of us misunderstood each other, for that I apologize. It's sometimes very hard to type what you want to say and have it be understood, the tone of voice, facial expressions, they are a large part of communication, and not available here.

I agree it is hard to type what you want to say even with the smilies.:)..I accept and appreciate this post. If we can all remember this, it would no doubt help us not to read more into other people's posts.


I respect everyone's right to believe what they want to believe, even if it's not believing in God. I am trying to voice my beliefs, which of course are not the same as a Christians beliefs, please try to respect that, I've had 37 years of life that lead to my beliefs, they will not be changed, this I know.

It may not seem so, but I was not trying to change your beliefs, but voice my own. Since ours are not the same, it may have seemed I was trying to 'convert' you. How does on voice their own beliefs without others thinking they are being preached to on here?:confused:

The religious discussion board is a place to discuss all aspects of religion, even not believing in religion, so let's all try to express our differences respectfully. I'm sorry I got mad, I really am working on not allowing my anger to take over. NoHelp, you know me, I'm a loud mouth German, and that part of me often escapes, haven't gotten a handle on her yet.

Oh You're German, that explains everything!!!!!!!!!:p My friend Judy is German; she came here without knowing a word of English. She was asking the people she was staying with for some food; they could not understand her. They had to call her mother in Germany to figure out the child was hungry. Now she can barely communicate in the German language. But she doesn't have any trouble with the English!!


Now, to keep things light, a little bit of my childhood, and yes, my parents always meant this as a joke;

My mom and dad always said that there were more then 10 commandments, there where actually 11 but the last one was dismissed. So, what is the 11th commandment? Never get caught. ;)

Remember, it's a joke. :)
Now a bit about me, I believe the Bible is the final authority, the true Word of God, to me it is a fact. I am very adamant about what I believe and when I state my beliefs, I'm sure it comes off as harsh even preachy. But I believe Jesus died for my sins and was raised for my justification. I am like the tree planted by the water, I shall not be moved.

Others can believe as they please, that will not effect my salvation. I did not come on this board to argue or cause trouble. I came to have some company. I'm homebound. I seldom get to talk to anyone. Even my husband is a quiet man. I was very excited to see this board, but it is not quite what I expected. BTW The Christian board isn't much better either. :(

So, all is well.
Peace and ease...

I love this:
In science, theories are abandoned when they conflict with realityActually that's completely false but that's another thread.

Can I offer a suggestion? Instead of saying christian and non-believers why not say christians and non-christians. Most people believe in that something, just not the same thing that you do.

Actually that's completely false but that's another thread.

Can I offer a suggestion? Instead of saying christian and non-believers why not say christians and non-christians. Most people believe in that something, just not the same thing that you do.


When I say non-believers, I mean non-Christians. I know everyone believes something, I assumed it was clear since I said Christians and non-believers, that people would know I mean non-believers in the Christian faith. I am sorry if it is offensive, but I do not mean it that way. Is that OK?

Would you mind using a capital C in Christian?

Would you mind using a capital C in Christian?Do you use a capital A for Atheist or Agnostic?

I am very adamant about what I believe and when I state my beliefs,

Everyone is adamant about what they believe.


I am like the tree planted by the water, I shall not be moved.

I feel the same way. :)

Would you mind using a capital C in Christian?
Do you use a capital A for Atheist or Agnostic?
·
Good point NK ! I saw that too. Personally I do my best to use a capital "C" for words like Christ, Christian, and Christianity, but most (fundamental) Christians fail to show that same sign of respect for other views, and do not write Atheist and Agnostic with a capital "A". It's good to point that out, specially to the cheeky ones who "request"/demand their own belief to be written with a capital C, but fail themselves to use capitals when referring to other world views.
As I always have stated on this board : your actions are more important than your words !
Specially true in a case like this with one single missing capital saying more than the entire following text...

:rolleyes:

·

Can I request that you refer to me as a Deist, with a capital D, okay just a little joke to lighten things up. Although the definition of Deist is the closest to what I believe. :)

I actually prefer to be called Alty, I don't really like labels. :)

Can I request that you refer to me as a Deist, with a capital D, okay just a little joke to lighten things up. Although the definition of Deist is the closest to what I believe. :) I actually prefer to be called Alty, I don't really like labels. :)
Ok for/with me : Deist it is, Alty!!

:D

·

Do you use a capital A for Atheist or Agnostic?

You made a suggestion, and I did explain and say I was sorry, then I asked a favor of you and you get upset and defensive.


Don't bother if you don't want to, I thought we were playing nice today

Everyone is adamant about what they believe.



I feel the same way. :)

Then we are two of a kind how nice for us I bet we could be excellent friends

You made a suggestion, and I did explain and say I was sorry, then I asked a favor of you and you get upset and defensive.


don't bother if you don't want to, i thought we were playing nice todayHow is asking for the same thing being upset and defensive? I'm a nice guy and I play nice every day.

I love this : In science, theories are abandoned when they conflict with reality
Actually that's completely false but that's another thread.
·
True, but both statements shows the mindset of the poster. One of deliberate misrepresentation, the other of polite pointing that out.




Would you mind using a capital C in Christian?
Do you use a capital A for Atheist or Agnostic?
·

... then I asked a favor of you and you get upset and defensive.
·
One more deliberate misrepresentation : you did not get upset at all. You asked a fair question that I note has not been replied to.
Again this shows the mindset of the poster. Yours by a polite question-in-return, the other one more deliberate misrepresentation.
As I always like to point out : ones actions are more important and say more than ones words !

================================================== =========================

Returning to the topic :
"I believe Christ died for the ungodly"
Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods. As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time. As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
How is "ungodly" defined?

:)

·

How is asking for the same thing being upset and defensive? I'm a nice guy and I play nice every day.
Do you use a capital A for Atheist or Agnostic?


That didn't sound as if you were asking me to use a capital A. Actually, I seldom, if ever, use the words Atheist or Agnostic and when I did a word search they are not normally started with a capital A unless at the beginning of a sentence.


But if that was a request, I will try to remember to use a capital A if I ever use those words again.

I am sorry if I misunderstood your request.

Returning to the topic :
"I believe Christ died for the ungodly"
Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods. As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time. As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
How is "ungodly" defined?

:)

·

As much as I would like to discuss this topic, I have been so restricted by those who do not believe the Christian faith, or non-Christians, to the point that it is now impossible for me to continue.

According to the rules, which I assume, only apply to Christians:
I must start every sentence with 'I believe', I must conform my Christian vernacular so as not to offend anyone. In spite of the fact that this board called 'Religious discussion', I was told it was started for Atheist; and then directed to the Christian board. It was also suggested that I should not use Scripture in my post. Neither should I suggest that one, who continually asks for proof of my belief, should in turn offer proof of his belief or non-belief/dis-belief, no-belief or whatever the correct word is that goes here. Sorry, if that offends anyone…I have not quite learned all the rules and terminology here. I have also been told that a question that starts with “Do you”… was actually a suggestion/request. I am sure there are many I have forgotten, but no matter…………

It does seem odd though; since the topic of this board is a Scriptural reference that so many who do not believe in Scripture have come to discuss 'Scripture'? Yet will not allow Scripture to be discussed, does that seem odd to anyone else? As far as I am concerned, this board should be closed.

Wado

According to the rules, which I assume, only apply to Christians : I must start every sentence with 'I believe'
Incorrect Tsila. You can state whatever you want as you like. I only (strongly) suggest that you start every religious claim with "I believe", as for instance in : "I believe that God wants me to ...." , or "I believe that God is the Creator".
Of course you do not have to do that, but not doing so will result in everyone being free to question such statement.
And my suggestion stands for everyone here. Not only for Christians. Why are you so exaggerating?
On the Religious Discussion Board everyone is free to discuss matters relating to religion. There is no special condition for religious people's claims to have any more validity than for anyone else. Claims are claims, and require OSE if you want others to accpet them as correct. It is as simple as that.


It was also suggested that I should not use Scripture in my post. Neither should I suggest that one, who continually asks for proof of my belief, should in turn offer proof of his belief or non-belief/dis-belief, no-belief or whatever the correct word is that goes here.
That would indeed be better, as this is not a sub-Christianity board. Scripture - with all respect for your personal views - is here no automatic valid answer to all questions.


It does seem odd though; since the topic of this board is a Scriptural reference that so many who do not believe in Scripture have come to discuss 'Scripture'? Yet will not allow Scripture to be discussed, does that seem odd to anyone else? As far as I am concerned, this board should be closed.
Incorrect suggestion. Scripture on this board has no automatic validity. It is open to discussion and rejection. A totally different approach than on the Christianity Board. I do not question Scripture on the Christianity Board, as it is the basis for the Christian religion. But here the situation is different.

Discuss here whatever you like, however you like. Just have respect - and show that respect - for other peoples views, just as all others show respect for your views. As you know : one good turn deserves another !
And realize that Christianity is here just one of many possible (world) views. And that has been the essence of my comments here against many of your posts from the start. It would make discussions so much more pleasant to all if you did. And I know that the same rules apply to everyone, including me (of course).

So : can you live with that? It would be a pity if you would leave this board.

:rolleyes:

·

So if they want to question such statements that is fine but to have it pointed out every time you don't THAT is a different story.
I would rather have the questions actually!!

So if they want to question such statements that is fine but to have it pointed out every time you don't THAT is a different story. I would rather have the questions actually!!!
Indeed : it is better to have the questioning than a comment black-out against religious claims.

See it this way, please : just make sure that whatever you state is correct, i.e. every religious claim either should be proved with OSE or be preceded by "I believe ..."
Once more : the point here is not if you believe whatever you believe, but if it is valid in general.

ANY (religious) claim is on this board open to questioning. ALWAYS. And by ANYONE. And every religious claim may be questioned - as often as necessary !

(Apologies : immediately after posting I made a correction on an incorrect statement)

:rolleyes:

·

Didn't I just say that I welcome questions but the repeated statement to have I believe before the belief is annoying cause it IS belief and if others don't realize that then they can feel free to question
This is the religious discussion board.

Notice at the top off the page it says Religious Discussions
Of course that is what we believe this IS a religious discussion board where Christians say WHAT they believe. It is not the FACT board, it is not the ''prove it'' board, it is not the science board, it is not the atheist board it IS the religious board
Religion isn't a topic for "argument" - to prove wrong or right, but to openly discuss.
So yes anything we say is our claim.

RELIGION = Believe IN, believe, belief
Get it yet?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Didn't I just say that I welcome questions but the repeated statement to have I believe before the belief is annoying cause it IS belief and if others don't realize that then they can feel free to question . This is the religious discussion board.
As stated earlier : that is irrelevant. A religious statement remains a claim, and may be treated as a claim. And as such it may be questioned. No matter how often that religious statement is made.
And unless OSE is provided to support that religious statement, every such statement is open to questioning.
So nobody has to prove his/her religious statements, but than do not complain that such statements are questioned on their validity.


RELIGION = Believe IN, believe, belief Get it yet?????
I very well know what religion is. And I know the meaning of belief. I also know that never has there been any OSE for the validity of any religious claim or belief.
And as this is a DISCUSSION BOARD and not a specific religious board (as the Christianity board), every religious statement is open to questioning, specially when it suggests to have validity.
"God knows", or "God wants" are non-valid statements for everone here on this board. So preceding it with "I believe that ..." is NOT too much asked.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

·

Returning to the topic :


"I believe Christ died for the ungodly"
Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods. As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time. As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
How is "ungodly" defined?

:)

·

As stated earlier : that is irrelevant. A religious statement remains a claim, and may be treated as a claim. And as such it may be questioned. No matter how often that religious statement is made.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

·

As stated earlier I did not say do not question
Did I say otherwise?

As stated earlier I did not say do not question
Did I say otherwise?
You actually posted :

Didn't I just say that I welcome questions but the repeated statement to have I believe before the belief is annoying cause it IS belief and if others don't realize that then they can feel free to question . This is the religious discussion board.
Your "the repeated statement to have I believe before the belief is annoying" says differently.
I will not explain it again. Just look back.
This is a discussion board, and therefore ANY (religious) claim is on this board open to questioning. ALWAYS. And by ANYONE. And as often as necessary !

===

Now : once more : CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO THE TOPIC ???

:rolleyes:

·

There is a difference between people questioning why you believe or what you believe or proof of what you believe
From saying that you must state I believe before you make a claim

If you don't understand the difference then no wonder the Christians keep going around and around with you on that issue!

... From saying that you must state I believe before you make a claim ...
Unless you PROVE your statements with OSE, you must expect questioning their validity. And only "I believe that" prevents you from that from happening.
So WHO is actually causing this repetition of questioning of religious claims?


If you don't understand the difference then no wonder the Christians keep going around and around with you on that issue!
And I understand that difference very well. I also know why many Christians refuse to do that, although it is a valid request to precede religious statements with "I believe that".
So WHO is actually causing this repetition of questioning of religious claims?

===

Now : once more : CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO THE TOPIC ???

:)

·

I don't know why you keep talking about questioning when I keep saying I am not talking about questions.

I'll consider it. I have 3 children for the weekend.

I don't know why you keep talking about questioning when I keep saying I am not talking about questions.
And I don't know why you keep interfering (since #197) and delay further discussion of the topic...

:rolleyes:

·

I'll consider it. I have 3 children for the weekend.
That's fine with me. Take your time. Have a nice weekend.

:)

·

Returning to the topic :


"I believe Christ died for the ungodly"
Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods. As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time. As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
How is "ungodly" defined?

:)

·

"in perfect accordance"? The Bible seems more to be one big collection of mistakes, faults, and contradictions. And all of these - accordingly to what you believe - by a deity that is omniscient, supra-natural, and perfect.

So either God's guidance was extremely poor , or God did not check if his words were recorded properly (in both cases neither a perfect nor an omniscient deity).


There have surely been diformations of the bible to lead to some of these things that you call "mistakes, faults, and contradictions", as Tsila said. I also came to know (=believe)that the Roman Catholic Bible is not a complete one and only the common passages were kept in this bible, whereas the others were kind of forgotten at that time, but were kind of retrieved. I think that you can find some of the 'lost books' on the net.

There have surely been diformations of the bible to lead to some of these things that you call "mistakes, faults, and contradictions", as Tsila said.
Just as an indication of what I meant : there are many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible. Rather strange for a book that is claimed to be the word of the god deity that is acclaimed to be "perfect".

================================================== =============================

Please note that so far it have been theists who with repeated statements are preventing the topic discussion to continue.

Can we return now to the topic?


"I believe Christ died for the ungodly"
Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods.
As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time.
As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
And how is "ungodly" defined here?

:)

·

Just as an indication of what I meant : there are many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible. Rather strange for a book that is claimed to be the word of the god deity that is acclaimed to be "perfect".


Give some examples.

[quote=Credendovidis]Just as an indication of what I meant : there are many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible. Rather strange for a book that is claimed to be the word of the god deity that is acclaimed to be "perfect".

================================================== =============================

Please note that so far it have been theists who with repeated statements are preventing the topic discussion to continue.

Can we return now to the topic?


Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods.
As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time.
As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
And how is "ungodly" defined here?

:)

·[/quote)


So, did you answer yourself? I would be interested in knowing what you came up with concerning the questions you asked yourself.



: there are many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible.

Now may I ask you a question? How many times have you read the Bible, and how many hours have you studied it to come up with this belief?

Can we return now to the topic?

The topic...I believe Jesus died for the ungodly.... was a statement of what I believe.



Note the question at the bottom: If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe? If no one can prove that God does exist, and no one can prove that God does not exist, then how do we decide what to believe?


I decided because I saw the difference it may in my sisters, their husbands and my brother. I saw a difference in their life, the peace, confidence and joy that replaced the struggle, worry, and problems they had before they were born-again.


The way they talked about good things and acted so happy and treated people more kindly. The way they handled their problems with ease. The way their lives were changed so much for the better in every way.



Then going to church with them and everyone there were loving, friendly and happy. I also saw those people outside of church and they were the same. I had many examples of Believers in God and I watched their actions and saw the light in their eyes, the joy they had and how they were always steadfast.


I was jealous of them, because I did not have that peace, I was not happy, being single mom and having to take care of an elderly and “not very kind” dad, I was overworked and depressed. I wanted what they had.


Then I said the sinner's prayer and I knew something had changed on the inside of me. I started reading the Bible and going to church and I felt a joy that I could not find a reason for, because nothing on the outside had changed. I could handle things with more ease and confidence.



My belief in God changed my life; it made my life worth living, not just existing. I found I was actually a happy person now with hope for the future.



The depression was gone, the 'overworked' feeling was gone; I had more energy and strength to do what I had to do. I felt better physically, mentally and emotionally.


I decided to believe in God and His Holy Word because of examples set by those who believed. I continue to believe in God because of the change it made in my life.

Apologies for the length of this post, but I was asked to provide examples. And here they are...


Give some examples.
With all pleasure ! I don't know where I found the following list on the Internet. It was a long time ago. But I thank who ever it was !

Biblical contradictions

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6

2. God dwells in chosen temples 2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples Acts 7:48

3. God dwells in light Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness 1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

4. God is seen and heard Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

5. God is tired and rests Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests Is 40:28

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

7. God knows the hearts of men Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

8. God is all powerful Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful Judg 1:19

9. God is unchangeable James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14

10. God is just and impartial Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

11. God is the author of evil Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil 1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

12. God gives freely to those who ask James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

13. God is to be found by those who seek him Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him Prov 1:28

14. God is warlike Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/ 1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings, sacrifices , and holy days Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings, sacrifices, and holy days. Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

18. God accepts human sacrifices 2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice Deut 12:30,31

19. God tempts men Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man James 1:13

20. God cannot lie Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive 2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him Gen 8:21

22. God's attributes are revealed in his works. Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered Job 11:7/ Is 40:28

23. There is but one God Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

25. Lying approved and sanctioned Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned 2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden Deut 23:7

27. Killing commanded Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden Ex 20:13

28. The blood-shedder must die Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die Gen 4:15

29. The making of images forbidden Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded Ex 25:18,20

30. Slavery and oppression ordained Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

31. Improvidence enjoyed Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned 1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22

32. Anger approved Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20

33. Good works to be seen of men Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men Matt 6:1

34. Judging of others forbidden Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved 1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

35. Christ taught non-resistance Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed John 7:1

37. Public prayer sanctioned 1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved Matt 6:5,6

38. Importunity in prayer commended Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned Matt 6:7,8

39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned 1 Cor 11:14

40. Circumcision instituted Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned Gal 5:2

41. The Sabbath instituted Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites out of Egypt Deut 5:15

43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in the same John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

44. Baptism commanded Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded 1 Cor 1:17,14

45. Every kind of animal allowed for food. Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food. Deut 14:7,8

46. Taking of oaths sanctioned Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden Matt 5:34

47. Marriage approved Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved 1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8

48. Freedom of divorce permitted Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted Matt 5:32

49. Adultery forbidden Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

I stopped here with no. 50. Don't want to overload here. But I have about 500 more of these... In various categories, including Historical Facts and Speculative Doctrines
Of course you can argue about a couple of these, but there are too many remaining to dismiss the statement that the Bible is loaded with contradictions !

:rolleyes:

·

(Re. many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible) Now may I ask you a question? How many times have you read the Bible, and how many hours have you studied it to come up with this belief?
I read the entire Bible several times. I know more than enough of it's content to QUESTION it as the "word of God" and as the source of the "evidence" for God's existence.

Besides that : if you think that to be a good Christian requires hours upon hours of Bible studies, than you are surely wrong. I know lot's of "good" Christians who hardly ever study the Bible. And I also know extremely "bad" Christians who spend every available minute with their nose in the Bible.
As I have stated many times before : "words are easy, but your deeds show who and what you are"...


.... I decided to believe in God and His Holy Word because of examples set by those who believed. I continue to believe in God because of the change it made in my life.
Fine with me. From me you may believe whatever you prefer !
In this topic I did not attack how or why you believe what you believe.
I question WHAT you believe. Specially the topic name makes little sense (who were these ungodly? There were not many "ungodly" where Jesus preached.)

:rolleyes:

·

Can we return now to the topic? Can we return now to the topic? Can we return now to the topic? Can we return now to the topic? Can we return now to the topic?

What happen to wanting to get back to the topic, Cred?

As for your ridiculous list, that thing proves nothing! One verse does not stand-alone. Each verse must be taken in context with what is being discussed and the verses before and after; as in any other book, article or even post.

Have you studied each one of these for yourself or do you just believe the list by faith because it makes it easier for you then actually doing the research yourself and providing some evidence, what is it that you are always asking for….ostd?




For instance you said: Pascal's Wager has already for many years been proved logically invalid....

Then you said:
Pascal provided with his wager the logical conclusion that christians are in the same position as other theists and non-theists : believing in an entity just out of fear for some claimed "final judgment" does not work. There is no guarantee that any religious claim is the correct one. All Christians do is believe in another god than other mono-theists do, believe in less gods than multi-theists do, or in one more god than non-believers do.


invalid.... synonyms: untrue, unacceptable, unsound.

Therefore you are saying Pascal's wager is untrue, unacceptable and unsound. I agree.

Can we return now to the topic?

[quote=Credendovidis]I read the entire Bible several times. I know more than enough of it's content to QUESTION it as the "word of God" and as the source of the "evidence" for God's existence. I doubt that, words are easy..........

Besides that : if you think that to be a good Christian requires hours upon hours of Bible studies, than you are surely wrong. Did I say that? Show me where I said that. See now this is just another good example of taking things our of context.

I know lot's of "good" Christians who hardly ever study the Bible. And I also know extremely "bad" Christians who spend every available minute with their nose in the Bible.
You know people who call themselves Christians perhaps...But who are you to judge who is good and who is bad?


As I have stated many times before : "words are easy, but your deeds show who and what you are"... they sure do...And you will be judged by them.......


Fine with me. From me you may believe whatever you prefer !
In this topic I did not attack how or why you believe what you believe.
I question WHAT you believe. Why?

Specially the topic name makes little sense (who were these ungodly? There were not many "ungodly" where Jesus preached.) Did I say He preached to the ungodly?
Besides, I thought you read the Bible several times, don't you know?


·

I doubt that, words are easy
Fine with me, just doubt whatever you want !


But who are you to judge who is good and who is bad?
I don't. That's why I put these words between marks. I do not judge. But I know what is good and what is bad. For instance that constant aggression in your posts to me : that shows you a bad (as in "poor") Christian. You do not "spread the word", you show your hurt ego !


As for your ridiculous list, that thing proves nothing!
Why ridiculous? That list shows that there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible. How could a perfect deity have any contradictions (imperfections) in his instruction manual for humanity?


Besides, I thought you read the Bible several times, don't you know?
You sound like a Muslim who can quote from the Qur'an by head. Where is in the Bible the instruction to do similar?
I have read many thoudsands of books. Do you expect me to know the entire content of all these too, line by line, word by word? Why should I? For me the Bible is just a book. Nothing more, just a book full of faults, mistakes, unsupported claims, and lots of contradictions ! It seems to me that your "logic" lacks any validity!!

===

If you make quotations, please do that correctly. The way you do now is very unclear. If you need instructions how to do, just ask !

:rolleyes:

·

Knowing the words in a book means little if you don't do it with understanding and look at the theme of its works. And of course the bible is not one book but a collection of writings wrote to various groups of people for various reasons, But as in all of your issues, they all do work together to give one truth, and there is little issues in the bible except for those without the faith to understand the real meanings of things, and not taking some veres out of context.

Only a person of faith can be a bible scholar,

Knowing the words in a book means little if you don't do it with understanding and look at the theme of its works.
You mean : "I can not argue the contradiction list Cred posted (on request of Unknown008) ?


And of course the bible is not one book but a collection of writings wrote to varous groups of people for various reasons
Everyone knows that. That is not very relevant !


Only a person of faith can be a bible scholar
Agreed for almost all Bible students. And I can use my time better than by studying the content of that book.
Why tsila1777 seems to feel that necessary for me as Secular Humanist to do is beyond me.
Although I respect anybodies right to believe whatever suits him/her, I do not have to take the doctrine itself as valid.

It is just a pity that from her approach it seems that she refuses to discuss her own topic header text itself : "did Jesus die for the ungodly"? Why does it suggest only ungodly?

:rolleyes:

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Fine with me, just doubt whatever you want !


I don't. That's why I put these words between marks. I do not judge. But I know what is good and what is bad. For instance that constant aggression in your posts to me : that shows you a bad (as in "poor") Christian. You do not "spread the word", you show your hurt ego !


Why ridiculous? That list shows that there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible. How could a perfect deity have any contradictions (imperfections) in his instruction manual for humanity?


You sound like a Muslim who can quote from the Qur'an by head. Where is in the Bible the instruction to do similar?
I have read many thoudsands of books. Do you expect me to know the entire content of all these too, line by line, word by word? Why should I? For me the Bible is just a book. Nothing more, just a book full of faults, mistakes, unsupported claims, and lots of contradictions ! It seems to me that your "logic" lacks any validity !!!

Who are you talking to here?

===

If you make quotations, please do that correctly. The way you do now is very unclear. If you need instructions how to do, just ask !

And here?

:rolleyes:

·
statement of faith....I believe Christ died for the ungodly....

Question:

If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?


Any comments?

Any comments?
As most of the times is the case with your posts : YES, lot's of them!




--Fine with me, just doubt whatever you want !
--I don't. That's why I put these words between marks.
--Why ridiculous? That list shows that there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible.
--You sound like a Muslim who can quote from the Qur'an by head.
--I have read many thoudsands of books. For me the Bible is just a book. Nothing more...
Who are you talking to here?
I clearly reacted to your posts #218 and #219. Posts that included quotations from my hand.
Did you forget that perhaps already?


Question: If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?Any comments?
Your subconcious indicates what is acceptable to your upper brain's logical thinking.
Influencing that subconcious is a slow and difficult process.


statement of faith....I believe Christ died for the ungodly....
No problem that you BELIEVE that. But the statement is incorrect. At best Christ died ALSO for the ungodly, but not "for the ungodly" .... If what you suggest were true, no Christian believers would be saved (assuming the Christian doctrine in general is valid).
And as I already asked you several times : who were these "ungodly" you keep referring to during Jesus' life time?




If you make quotations, please do that correctly. The way you do now is very unclear. If you need instructions how to do, just ask !
And here?
Be glad that I offered you to help you with your unclear and poor post lay-out while including quotations by others. But I see : it's your long-toed ego again !
If you can't work out what I offered, what are you doing here on a board like AMHD ???

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

Question:

If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true.

Yes, correct.


And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe?


Any comments?

I think that if that can be proven or not, we can feel in us that this must be or must not be true. Then, we will, according to our feelings, I think, that we will choose rather to believe or not. However, there is also the Bible, which some kind of witnesses these events. Here also, true or not, there are the choices to believe or not. I think that believing in something doesn't really hurt, and putting your troubles and glorifying a God that you really think exist is helpful. Whatever you think, that will be my opinion.

Cred, I will no more discuss the irrelevant quotes you posted as tsila replied them, plus, I don't want to get off the thread, even if you post against my hereby post. So don't need to wait for an answer.

As most of the times is the case with your posts : YES, lot's of them!


I clearly reacted to your posts #218 and #219. Posts that included quotations from my hand.
Did you forget that perhaps already?


Your subconcious indicates what is acceptable to your upper brain's logical thinking.
Influencing that subconcious is a slow and difficult process.


No problem that you BELIEVE that. But the statement is incorrect. At best Christ died ALSO for the ungodly, but not "for the ungodly" .... If what you suggest were true, no Christian believers would be saved (assuming the Christian doctrine in general is valid).
And as I already asked you several times : who were these "ungodly" you keep referring to during Jesus' life time?


Be glad that I offered you to help you with your unclear and poor post lay-out while including quotations by others. But I see : it's your long-toed ego again !
If you can't work out what I offered, what are you doing here on a board like AMHD ???

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

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Insults do not bother me, Cred. As your opinions are just that and no more. I could not care less what you think of me personally. So fire away, you are shooting blanks. :p
__________________________________________________ ________
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
According to the rules, which I assume, only apply to Christians : I must start every sentence with 'I believe'

Quote
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Incorrect Tsila. You can state whatever you want as you like. I only (strongly) suggest that you start every religious claim with "I believe", as for instance in : "I believe that God wants me to ...." , or "I believe that God is the Creator".
Of course you do not have to do that, but not doing so will result in everyone being free to question such statement.
__________________________________________________ ___________

You said if I did not start a statement with “I believe” the result would be that everyone was free to question such statement, inferring that if did start a sentence with 'I believe', then it would not be questioned.

__________________________________________________ ________
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
statement of faith....I believe Christ died for the ungodly....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
No problem that you BELIEVE that. But the statement is incorrect. At best Christ died ALSO for the ungodly, but not "for the ungodly" .... If what you suggest were true, no Christian believers would be saved (assuming the Christian doctrine in general is valid).
And as I already asked you several times : who were these "ungodly" you keep referring to during Jesus' life time?
__________________________________________________ __________


I said nothing of 'during Jesus' lifetime”……….you added that as you always add something, twisting statements and misquoting others. And you broke your own rule.

Cred, I will type this very slowly so you can read it and understand it. Hopefully!! There were no Christians until after Christ died. That was the point of his death and resurrection. It was to save sinner.

I believe Christ died for the sins of the whole world. The ungodly, everyone was condemned under sin and those that do not accept the salvation for which Christ died are still condemned already and without hope, and bound for Hell. This is what I believe. I've answered your question, but you have yet to answer mine.


It would be too long and to hard for you to understand for me to explain all of this about Law and Grace. So end of topic.

Yes, correct.



I think that if that can be proven or not, we can feel in us that this must be or must not be true. Then, we will, according to our feelings, i think, that we will choose rather to believe or not. However, there is also the Bible, which some kind of witnesses these events. Here also, true or not, there are the choices to believe or not. I think that believing in something doesn't really hurt, and putting your troubles and glorifying a God that you really think exist is helpful. Whatever you think, that will be my opinion.

Cred, i will no more discuss the irrelevant quotes you posted as tsila replied them, plus, i don't wnat to get off the thread, even if you post against my hereby post. So don't need to wait for an answer.

Dear Unk,
That is correct. The proof, the evidence is on the inside. It is a ‘knowing’ that what you believe is true. To us it is a fact, and that should be enough for the unbelievers, the ungodly and the sinners. Agnostic and Atheistic, the unlearned and anyone else, who label themselves according to their beliefs that I may have missed, are just incapable of understanding the Christian faith. The unspiritual cannot understand spiritual things.

It is by this faith that we are saved, if not for faith, no one would be saved. Why do they care so much why does it annoy them so much?

It is unfortunate that some come to this board only toask unlearned and ignorant questions, instead of discussing the topic. Just like the Pharisees and the Sad U sees that tried to trick Jesus with unprofitable questions.



They also made rules and laws for others to follow, but they themselves did not follow.


Jesus said that they made a big show of washing the outside of the cup, which was of no value, it is the inside that needs cleansing and Jesus provided this by the shedding of His Blood, which cleanses us from all sin.



Credendovidis[/B]] Your subconscious indicates what is acceptable to your upper brain's logical thinking. Influencing that subconscious is a slow and difficult process.



This is so true, and I am sorry you have this problem. I suppose this is why you get so frustrated that you have to stoop to insults.

Thanks for the answer Tsila, and good return to Cred too:p!

Thanks for everything Unk.

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6

Lets put them in context as not to confuse the non believers by your nonsense:
Passage Genesis 1:31:

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 6

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Keep in mind that this was the post period following the exile from Eden. Sin had entered into the world. Man is not godly nor do they follow any of gods rules. Man is evil and in the world they are lost.

Funny how you think some blurb defined your argument. If you actually read the passages...hmm. Might help if you actually read the bible instead of cherry picking verses to ridicule as inconsistent.

2. God dwells in chosen temples 2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples Acts 7:48
Passage 2 Chronicles 7:12:

12And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.


Referring to Old Testament sacrifice to god. Something the Old testament, under gods "law" demanded. By the way in the original text no translation says anything about god dwells in a chosen temple. just saying.

Passage Acts 7:40-48:
40 They told Aaron, 'Make us some gods who can lead us, for we don't know what has become of this Moses, who brought us out of Egypt.' 41 So they made an idol shaped like a calf, and they sacrificed to it and celebrated over this thing they had made. 42 Then God turned away from them and abandoned them to serve the stars of heaven as their gods! In the book of the prophets it is written,

'Was it to me you were bringing sacrifices and offerings
during those forty years in the wilderness, Israel?
43 No, you carried your pagan gods—
the shrine of Molech,
the star of your god Rephan,
and the images you made to worship them.
So I will send you into exile
as far away as Babylon.'[a]

44 “Our ancestors carried the Tabernacle with them through the wilderness. It was constructed according to the plan God had shown to Moses. 45 Years later, when Joshua led our ancestors in battle against the nations that God drove out of this land, the Tabernacle was taken with them into their new territory. And it stayed there until the time of King David.

46 “David found favor with God and asked for the privilege of building a permanent Temple for the God of Jacob.[c] 47 But it was Solomon who actually built it. 48 However, the Most High doesn't live in temples made by human hands. As the prophet says,


I changed it to a simple translation as to not confuse the context. You are still reaching my friend. Might not always believe what you read on the internet. I can go passage by passage and show you that taking one line out of the bible that has been changed by someone who has not clue what they are reading is false doctrine. Something I might add that is very clearly heretical.


I stopped here with no. 50. Don't want to overload here. But I have about 500 more of these .... In various categories, including [B]Historical Facts and Speculative Doctrines
Of course you can argue about a couple of these, but there are too many remaining to dismiss the statement that the Bible is loaded with contradictions !

:rolleyes:

·

Personally stopped after two because to waist anymore time showing this nonsense to be false is just that, a waste of time. I challenge people to pick up the bible and actually read. Read the greek. Read the hebrew. Read your history. Educate yourself on the actual words, tenses, before you use some half cocked internet example.

Nice Smoked. See that Cred?

To us it is a fact, and that should be enough for the unbelievers, the ungodly and the sinners. Agnostic and Atheistic, the unlearned and anyone else, who label themselves according to their beliefs that I may have missed, are just incapable of understanding the Christian faith. The unspiritual cannot understand spiritual things.

It is a fact to you, I understand that, but it isn't fact to everyone. I have a problem with the name calling, ungodly, sinners, the unlearned, just because we don't believe the same thing you do does not mean we are any of those things.

We are all sinners, yes even Christians sin. We are all ungodly, by definition only God can be Godly, so therefore everyone who is not a God would be ungodly, nes pas? As for being unlearned, not true. I have read the bible, I have studied the bible, I have gone to Church, why do you think I don't believe in them, it's not because I'm lazy or ignorant, or even unintelligent, it's because neither of them made realistic sense.


It is by this faith that we are saved, if not for faith, no one would be saved. Why do they care so much why does it annoy them so much?

I have faith, but it's not the same faith as yours. Why does it annoy me when people quote the bible and say it's fact, because I don't believe it is and because I've had people try to push it on me my entire life. Because of my upbringing, the bullying I received from the Christians I went to school with, I do not back down when someone claims that their way is the only way, that they are right. I'm not saying that you are bullying, but until you can express your belief without using the bible, well, to me it's just stories in a book, nothing more, not the word of God and nothing anyone says or does will change my belief. We cannot discuss the existence of God with each other because we do not agree on the basis for eachothers beliefs. It does not mean that you are more spiritual, nor does it mean that I am, we are just different, not less, not more, just different. Please try and respect that difference, even if you don't accept it.


This is so true, and I am sorry you have this problem. I suppose this is why you get so frustrated that you have to stoop to insults.

As for this comment, although not directed at me, aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek? Responding to a supposed insult with one of your own, well, that's an eye for an eye not what the bible teaches. See, we are all sinners.

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but seeing as it's not going anywhere I figured I'd add my two cents, which is about what my opinion is worth. ;)

Wouldn't be wonderful if one Religion topic didn't turn into a "us vs. them" scenario?

It would, but alas it isn't possible from either side.

If you are talking to me Smoked, I am neither the us or the them, just me. :)

It would, but alas it isn't possible from either side.

If you are talking to me Smoked, I am neither the us or the them, just me. :)

It was a blanket statement commenting on the entire thread. I suppose, I should have been more specific as to not infer something that could be misconstrued or possibly twisted.

Every thread that the topic lies with religion tends to turn into a battle of beliefs or non belief.

I think this particular thread is humorous because the topic had nothing to do with those who don't believe. Yet, people who don't believe have come to this topic to berate those who believe, and suggest the believers are forcing their beliefs on them.

Let me finish with this isn't directed at any one person. If you are convicted by this statement then before you lash back think about why it bothers you first. :rolleyes:

I agree with you, but have to say that posting in Religious discussions means that you want to discuss all points of view, as this is a board specifically for that purpose, discussion. Not everyone who comes to this board believes in God, or the bible, or church. Therefore, when you post bible scripture you have to expect that other people who's beliefs are different will come to question what you posted.

Religion is a touchy subject, because there are so many different points of view on that subject. I myself do believe in God, but not the bible and not organized religion, I prefer to be disorganized. ;)

This particular thread probably would have been better off being posted in the Christianity thread, if the OP wanted to discuss the validity of the statement, and not hear opposing views. Posting here left the thread open to all beliefs, and that is always a tumultuous undertaking.

There are rules my parents used to tell me, that I have trouble following, one set was this; never discuss religion, politics or sex unless you want an argument. I never discuss politics. :);)

There are rules my parents used to tell me, that I have trouble following, one set was this; never discuss religion, politics or sex unless you want an arguement. I never discuss politics. :);)

I lol'd in rl.. hehe :D

It is a fact to you, I understand that, but it isn't fact to everyone. I have a problem with the name calling, ungodly, sinners, the unlearned, just because we don't believe the same thing you do does not mean we are any of those things.

We are all sinners, yes even Christians sin. We are all ungodly, by definition only God can be Godly, so therefore everyone who is not a God would be ungodly, nes pas? As for being unlearned, not true. I have read the bible, I have studied the bible, I have gone to Church, why do you think I don't believe in them, it's not because I'm lazy or ignorant, or even unintelligent, it's because neither of them made realistic sense.



I have faith, but it's not the same faith as yours. Why does it annoy me when people quote the bible and say it's fact, because I don't believe it is and because I've had people try to push it on me my entire life. Because of my upbringing, the bullying I received from the Christians I went to school with, I do not back down when someone claims that their way is the only way, that they are right. I'm not saying that you are bullying, but until you can express your belief without using the bible, well, to me it's just stories in a book, nothing more, not the word of God and nothing anyone says or does will change my belief. We cannot discuss the existence of God with eachother because we do not agree on the basis for eachothers beliefs. It does not mean that you are more spiritual, nor does it mean that I am, we are just different, not less, not more, just different. Please try and respect that difference, even if you don't accept it.



As for this comment, although not directed at me, aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek? Responding to a supposed insult with one of your own, well, that's an eye for an eye not what the bible teaches. See, we are all sinners.

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but seeing as it's not going anywhere I figured I'd add my two cents, which is about what my opinion is worth. ;)

I did want to close it down, but Cred wanted to continue it. Blame him.

Actually the term 'turning the other cheek' was because it was shameful to hit someone with the back of the hand, and therefore if you offer the other cheek you are giving them the opportunity to hit you with the back of the hand.

What name calling? If none of those fit you, then I was not talking about you, so why do you have a problem with it. But there are those people in the world, right? You said so yourself.

No, we cannot discuss the existence of God with each other. I do not recall trying to. I made a comment, saying, "I believe" as I was told to do... :confused:

It was a blanket statement commenting on the entire thread. I suppose, I should have been more specific as to not infer something that could be misconstrued or possibly twisted.

Every thread that the topic lies with religion tends to turn into a battle of beliefs or non belief.

I think this particular thread is humorous because the topic had nothing to do with those who don't believe. Yet, people who don't believe have come to this topic to berate those who believe, and suggest the believers are forcing their beliefs on them.

Let me finish with this isn't directed at any one person. If you are convicted by this statement then before you lash back think about why it bothers you first. :rolleyes:

I agree it is humorous. Just because there is an open thread, does not mean everyone has to post on it, especially if they disagree so strongly and do not want it forced on them, to be preached to, or to be converted. And as you said: not directed at anyone…but if it offends you ask yourself why before you attack.

I keep reading where this is a religious board, where everyone is allowed to post what they believe, but it is so often suggested that I personally should move to the Christian board. I should have closed it long ago. Oh well..

Nice Smoked. See that Cred?
Saw that you unknown creature !
Smoked shows perfectly what religion does to you : you lower your standards of logic and support to fit your religious belief. But that still does not make your religious belief valid : only OSE will do that !

:rolleyes:

·

Tsila, can I ask what exactly you wished to discuss when you started this thread? Did you wish to discuss your belief that Christ died for the Ungodly, or did you wish to discuss your anger in another thread being closed when you believed you were "winning", or to discuss what this site is for, or one of the other things stated in your post?


Part of the motive for coming to these boards, at least for some, is to have some fun, get to know others who share similar opinions and debate and tease those who do not.

This is just my opinion, but to close a thread in the face of complete and total defeat is cowardly and childish. However, if anyone has a different opinion, please feel free to share.

As for closing a thread, that is done by the mods or admin when things get to volatile, most times a thread isn't closed down because the OP requested it, especially not in the religious discussions board. To say that someone is cowardly and childish because their thread was closed down isn't accurate, the thread was most likely closed down to prevent further fighting, or because things were getting repeated without anyone getting anywhere.

Religion is a difficult subject to discuss, put 10 people in a room and everyone will have different views on religion, even those that follow the same religion. I think we've proven that time and time again, not only on this thread, but others as well.


No, we cannot discuss the existence of God with each other. I do not recall trying to. I made a comment, saying, "I believe" as I was told to do...

Yes, you did make a short statement in your original post describing what you believe. The rest of your post was more of a dare to continue what was started in another post, a way to call out the people who went against you in another thread.

My gut tells me this thread will soon be closed, everyone, including me, is getting too angry, I think communication is no longer possible at this point.

Good luck. :)

... In science, theories are abandoned when they conflict with reality ...
Not true at all. Nothing in science is beyond correction. A hypothesis is updated to include the latest findings. But a Scientific Theory being abandoned ? Never heard of that.
A theory is a near-scientific-fact and seldom requires updating (except one-off's like for instance Einstein's modification of Newton's Law of Gravity).
Your statement only shows your limited understanding of science.

In religion nothing is open to questioning, no Objective Supported Evidence is provided, and even the validity of dogma's is beyond discussion.

In religion there are only wild claims that have no link with reality ....

:rolleyes:

·

Tsila, can I ask what exactly you wished to discuss when you started this thread? Did you wish to discuss your belief that Christ died for the Ungodly, or did you wish to discuss your anger in another thread being closed when you believed you were "winning", or to discuss what this site is for, or one of the other things stated in your post?



As for closing a thread, that is done by the mods or admin when things get to volatile, most times a thread isn't closed down because the OP requested it, especially not in the religious discussions board. To say that someone is cowardly and childish because their thread was closed down isn't accurate, the thread was most likely closed down to prevent further fighting, or because things were getting repeated without anyone getting anywhere.

Religion is a difficult subject to discuss, put 10 people in a room and everyone will have different views on religion, even those that follow the same religion. I think we've proven that time and time again, not only on this thread, but others as well.



Yes, you did make a short statement in your original post describing what you believe. The rest of your post was more of a dare to continue what was started in another post, a way to call out the people who went against you in another thread.

My gut tells me this thread will soon be closed, everyone, including me, is getting too angry, I think communication is no longer possible at this point.

Good luck. :)

Seems to me you are the only one who is angry here. I don't understand why. And that other was explained to you. Remember? I'm sorry you are so upset.

Seems to me you are the only one who is angry here.

No, but apparently I'm the only one willing to admit it.

Continue to "discuss" whatever it is you wanted to discuss, because it isn't clear to me at all what the actual purpose of this thread was.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

Good luck to everyone. :)

In religion nothing is open to questioning, no Objective Supported Evidence is provided, and even the validity of dogma's is beyond discussion.

In religion there are only wild claims that have no link with reality ....

So why do you spend so much time discussing it?

So why do you spend so much time discussing it?
Why not? Why do you want to know? What has that to do with you?
Why don't you first anwer my questions on who were these "ungodly", in a topic about "ungodly"?

Besides all the rest, this board provides an excellent view on religious hypocrisy !

:rolleyes:

·

Why not? Why do you want to know? What has that to do with you?
Why don't you first anwer my questions on who were these "ungodly", in a topic about "ungodly"?

Besides all the rest, this board provides an excellent view on religious hypocrisy !

:rolleyes:

·

Cred, the topic was not about 'ungodly', can't you understand? You and some others said if I was going to make a statement of faith, I should use the words "I believe" which I did. So what is there to discuss about that?

The question was how is one to chose what to believe? Or in your case not to believe.

Again, I think this thread should be closed. You are off on science now, and Alty is mad about something... and I think the rest of 'us' :) are tired of this now.

Why don't you start a topic Cred?

Cred, the topic was not about 'ungodly', can't you understand?"Ungodly" even appears in the topic name...


... "I believe" which I did. So what is there to discuss about that?
In no way did I attack that Christ died or existed. Nor your belief on that point. All I questioned is the word "ungodly". Do you perhaps think that any topic or statement by you that contains "I believe" becomes completely off-line? If you want that, you should post on the Christianity Board - though I think even there whatever you post is not above questioning by anyone.


... you are off on science now
I only replied once to a statement by Smoked. That is not the same as being "off on science".


... and Alty is mad about something...
May be... why would that be, and who would that be ? :D


... and I think the rest of 'us' are tired of this now.
Speak only for yourself.


Why don't you start a topic Cred?
I have several topics open at this moment. So why should I open another one? May be a new topic about why some people post about "ungodly" but fail to specify these "ungodly" upon request ? Hmmmmm...


I think this thread should be closed.
If the one who posted the topic suggests that, I think it is indeed time for that. If you can't explain or reply to questions on your own topic header...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

Hum, Cred? Your post saying that 'only OSE will do that', I remind you that YOU started to pick statements from the bible, and in the context of the bible, smoked explained why that and that was so.

Hum, Cred? Your post saying that 'only OSE will do that', i remind you that YOU started to pick statements from the bible, and in the context of the bible, smoked explained why that and that was so.
I actually stated : "Smoked shows perfectly what religion does to you : you lower your standards of logic and support to fit your religious belief. But that still does not make your religous belief valid : only OSE will do that !"

I did not argue any statement in the bible. All I did was presenting a list of clear CONTRADICTIONS in the various bible books.

I still stand by my statement :

.... But that still does not make your religous belief valid : only OSE will do that !

Unless you can provide reasons (OSE'd of course) why that is incorrect!

:rolleyes:

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