I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob

I believe that if you need purgatory then you are not relying on Jesus as sufficient to forgive your sins.

Purgatory - Is It Biblical? (http://www.biblicist.org/bible/purge.shtml)

I believe what people call purgatory is an instantaneous moment

1 Corinthians 3:15

"If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."

Though Mr. Keating does not point out this verse in this E-Letter, he has often appealed to it when trying to present a Biblical text to serve as proof for Rome's doctrine of "purgatory."

I think Rome's apologists especially like this verse because it contains the words that sound like their doctrine of "purgatory:" "suffer," "loss," "fire," "saved," etc. However, like any Biblical text, it must be examined and understood within its immediate and overall context, for "any text taken out of context is a pretext."

Even a cursory examination of the context discloses that the Apostle Paul is not describing a man imprisoned in a place where his sins are being purged through personal suffering and by cleansing fire. In fact, Paul is not addressing sins in this passage at all, but a Christian workman's labor and subsequent rewards.

Paul metaphorically points out that according to the grace of God given to him, as a wise master builder he laid the foundation of Christ in Corinth, and another subsequently builds upon that foundation with valuable, noncombustible materials such as gold, silver and precious stones, or, worthless combustible materials such as wood, hay or straw (3:8-12). The value of the building materials is analogous to the value of the workman's labor, and it is the value of this "work" that "will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work" (3:13). If the work by which he built upon the foundation remains he receives a reward (vs. 14). If any of the man's work is burned up, he suffers loss (of reward, vs. 15).

When read in context it becomes very clear that Paul is not speaking of a future stint for believers in a place called "purgatory." But a future judgment when a Christian worker's labor will be tested (i.e. appraised), and if found valuable, rewarded. There is absolutely no mention of personal sins in the context of this passage, and the fire here is not a means of purging but revealing (vs. 13).

Rome's doctrine of "purgatory" does not comply at all with the Biblical teachings of God's grace toward us through Christ Jesus. And the amazing irony is that those who teach this valueless, totally non-Biblical doctrine, will at that future judgment themselves, if saved, suffer loss as by "fire."

Purgatory is taken from
"At his death, our Lord "preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19). Who were these folks, and where were they? They were those who died before the Redemption was effected and who were bound for heaven--but who were not yet there because heaven was not opened to anyone until after the Resurrection. These people were not in the hell of the damned, since we are told that Christ ended up taking them along with him to heaven (Eph. 4:8-10). Those in hell weren't going anywhere. It would have made no sense for him to preach to them."

BUT THAT place was a waiting place for the time when Jesus was crucified and THEN set them free and is no longer needed.

Rome's doctrine of "purgatory" does not comply at all with the Biblical teachings of God's grace toward us through Christ Jesus. And the amazing irony is that those who teach this valueless, totally non-Biblical doctrine, will at that future judgment themselves, if saved, suffer loss as by "fire."

Rob
NOhelp4u,

Thanks for the insight. It would seem that you would argue that the RCC shouldn't teach such things as "3 yrs off purgatory for reading your Bible" , etc.

Rob

I believe that if you need purgatory then you are not relying on Jesus as sufficient to forgive your sins.

BUT THAT place was a waiting place for the time when Jesus was crucified and THEN set them free and is no longer needed.

AGREE with you, NOhelp4u.. Such an important part of not teaching falsely. Keeping Chirst Holy, and Above All Else believing in His worthyness in body and blood.



Isaiah 42:3A A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory

To My servant say's God: " I " will trim your wick so that "My" Light of Truth shines bright and "I" have victory.. Amen to that!

NOhelp4u,

Thanks for the insight. It would seem that you would agree that the RCC shouldn't teach such things as "3 yrs off purgatory for reading your Bible" and etc.

Rob

Let's just say Nohelp4u sows good seed.

Matthew 13:22-23 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob
I don't know about specific church denomination doctrines, but the Bible says this:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,


NO mention of purgatory in the Bible. Just death, then judgment.

This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. There is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.

This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. there is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.

Where does the Bible say that a church can bind or loose sin?
Jesus said the following referring to spiritual warfare:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16:18-20 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 18:18
“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18:17-19 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)

BUT, this does not give us the power to bind or loose sin.
We are born in sin and the only one to forgive our sin and change the iniquity of our heart is the LORD GOD.



EDIT:
I was wrong to assume. Jesus did command us to forgive others sins.
Fr. Chuck: Please forgive me?


John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

Denominations can claim anything they want the thing is studying to figure out what the Bible says and means.

I think that's why I go to a non-denominational church. We just use the Bible for our instruction, not what someone else said we should be or do.

Denominations can claim anything they want the thing is studying to figure out what the Bible says and means.

This is the problem. Too often the denomination or church leadership is put in place of the true authority - scripture. Once they claim that they are alone are to interpret scripture or that you must follow their interpretation, it is time to leave that church since they have taken on a role which scripture says that they ought not to assume:

2 Peter 1:19-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

It is not of private interpretation of man - no man! Scripture interprets scripture.

Fr. Chuck.
Please see my edit on post #8. I was wrong.
Kelly

This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. there is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.

My opinion is we have freedom of choice. The freedom we arrived to achieve in America years ago. We have freedom to religion. This all accounts for the free will God gaves us. Follow in His Light or follow darkness. Scripture does not say give up your free will to the church authorities or priest. Nor does scripture say God gave your free will to the authorities of the church. Scripture tells us that God has fore told us all things. It does not say the church authority were the only ones fore told all things. All will be accountable to their actions, and Jesus does hold the Book to which your actions are held accountable.

(Revelation 20:12)And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

God told us this was all shown to John and he was told to write it in a (book) that book is call Revelation.
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

The churches are the people, believers and non believers, the church authority had no power given except to feed the sheep. What should they feed? Truth, The Word of God being Christ. God sent angels (messengers) within the church. These angels / messengers are the priest...

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

Christ had in His hand seven stars which are angels Revelation 1:20 does explain that fact. And out of Christ mouth was the Word like a 2 edged sword, and Christ's countenance as the sun, being as the Light, and His Light is the law in strength.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

The angel Christ sent are the authority of the church, and they are to testify these things noted: Who is Christ!

The Sabbath, Holy thou art

This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. there is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.
The power given to church is the power to accept members (to bind) and to excommunicate them (to loose); not to bind and to loose sins.

If you could notice the restriction of the power, it is only earth-based.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Assuming for the sake of argument that purgatory does exists, and the power pertains to binding and losing of sins, then, even the church has no power to loose the sin of those who are in it because the power given to the church is only earth-bound.

The power given to church is the power to accept members (to bind) and to excommunicate them (to loose); not to bind and to loose sins.

If you could notice the restriction of the power, it is only earth-based.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Assuming for the sake of argument that purgatory does exists, and the power pertains to binding and loosing of sins, then, even the church has no power to loose the sin of those who are in it because the power given to the church is only earth-bound.

Good points. It is also important to note that the reference in Matthew 16 is not given to a specific person, persons or church denomination, but rather to the universal church of those who are saved.

Also, we need to be careful regarding what those keys are. They are not the keys to forgive sin and thus determine who can enter heaven and who cannot. Jesus retained those keys.

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

We do have another set of keys mentioned in scripture.

Luke 11:51-53
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV

The key of knowledge - they only key of knowledge that would stop ((bind) one from entering the kingdom would be the knowledge of the gospel. They knew the truth that was in scripture, and bound others from enter by not giving them the truth, and choose not to enter themselves. This key (he truth of the gospel) was given to the church and we were given the commandment to spread the gospel make disciples.

Hopefully everyone will agree that with your free will, you would choose to do the Will of God... But one will believe that the priest was sent as the messenger, (angel) and does seek the Will of God with glory given to God.. and not himself or itself.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Roman catholic ideas about purgatory (and prayers to help those in purgatory), were not the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Such were not taught within the Romish church to any great degree until around 600 when Pope Gregory the Great made claims about a third state, a place for the purification of souls before their entrance into heaven and did not become an actual dogma until the Council of Florence in 1459.
During the twelfth century, a legend was spread which claimed that St. Patrick had found the actual entrance to purgatory. In order to convince some doubters, he had a deep pit dug in Ireland, into which several monks descended. Upon their return, said the tale, they described Purgatory and Hell with discouraging vividness. In 1153, the Irish knight, Owen, claimed he had also gone down through the pit into the underworld. Tourists came from far and near to visit the spot. Then financial abuses developed and in 1497, Pope Alexander VI ordered it closed as a fraud. Three years later, however, Pope benedict XIV preached and published a sermon in favor of Patrick's Purgatory. ( Babylon, Mystery Religion pages 70-71)
The Catholic church derives it's doctrine of paying indulgences, (paying to get sinners out of Purgatory) from 2 Machabees 12:38-46, a book that is full of doctrinal errors and so was not included in the collection of books we now know as the Bible.
In this story, Judas, an army commander, went into battle and in the course of things, took away the slain. The slain had idols under their coats and were supposed to be slain because of the just judgement of God. He sent 12000 drachmas of silver to Jerusalem to pay for the sacrifice to be offered for the dead, for he hoped that they that were slain would rise again from the dead. He considered that they who had fallen asleep had great godliness and had great grace laid up for them.It says in 2 Mach. 12: 46," It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they be loosed from sins. "
These guys were worshipping other Gods,. I'm sure that God would welcome them into Heaven because some-one paid a bit of cash... NOT!
It is contradictory to Deut.26:14, Psalm 49:6-7, 1 Peter 1:18, or when the sorcerer tried to buy the gift of God in Acts 8:20, Peter said to him "to hell with you and your money. how dare you think you could buy the gift of God". This is the literal translation of this verse, according to J.B. Phillips.
Also, Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter into Heaven, if buying indulgences was true, then Jesus was wrong, ( and I don't think that that is the case.)
Cheers. :)

I believe that binding and losing is dealing with the Kingdom of Heaven, that is, binding and losing those that have been afflicted by the enemy. We bind the demonic forces and loose those who are bound by them. The actual translation is " whatever you bind on earth, shall HAVE BEEN BOUND in Heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall HAVE BEEN LOOSED in Heaven.
We can only bind and loose what has already been bound or loosed in the heavenlies.
Jesus could only do what He saw his Father do, or say what He heard His Father say, it is the same for us, we can only do that that has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.
We do things by faith, but we are led to do it by the Holy Ghost.
We know that all sickness comes from the devil (Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. )
So we know Jesus assignment was to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.)
This is also our assignment, but we must hear and see what God has already bound in Heaven and whom He has loosed, so that we can do His work here also.
Luke 9
1Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

2And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Luke 10
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

3Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Cheers. :)

Denominations can claim anything they want the thing is studying to figure out what the Bible says and means.

Yes... I'll go along with that, there followers will also believe without question all of their teachings, as of course they should... so it goes on until someone questions it

We know that all sickness comes from the devil (Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. )
these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Cheers. :)

Just so you remember, pointing a finger at one to blame, there will be three fingers pointing back at you.. Responsibilities and accountability is in you. Satan can tempt you, but it up to you to rebuke satan, in the Name of Jesus with power that does cut off the devil.

Example: David to reap what was sown from not rebuking satan.. I Chronicles 21:1
Read for you must learn what following satan causes..

~Thank God for His teaching and blessing in "ALL" the Word

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.



Luke 10:18 And 1161 he said 2036 unto them 846, I beheld 2334 Satan 4567 as 5613 lightning 796 fall 4098 from 1537 heaven 3772.


Meaning of 2444

1) to be a spectator, look at, behold

a) to view attentively, take a view of, survey

1) to view mentally, consider

4098 metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

satan = Example of evil

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isa 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning...

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


That is what Jesus 'beheld'

Sndbay, I'm not sure what you are saying, is English your second language, I think you mean rebuking. I know you mean well, I just don't understand. No offense meant. :)

Sndbay, what does all the numbers mean, they don't relate to Strongs Concordance of the Bible, where are they from and what is the point you are trying to make? Cheers :)

Yeah I think it is Strong's too

Sndbay, what does all the numbers mean, they don't relate to Strongs Concordance of the Bible, where are they from and what is the point you are trying to make? Cheers :)

yes I corrected the spelling error... on rebuke "please forgive me"

As for the numbers they refer the original Hebrew or Greek word of the scripture. Held in safe keeping by what is called The Massorah.

The Massorah. - Appendix to the Companion Bible (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append30.html)

Very definitely apart of Strongs Concordance , and my point was just to show that we are told of the evil that satan puts before us. Our decision is to be friend satan in darkness or follow Christ in the Light = Law. That verse really puts the fact out there of how we are shown he is evil.

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob

1 Corinthians 3 2 I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal.

In teaching the truths of the faith, the Church has frequently used simplistic terms which would help the uninitiate understand the custom more easily.

That is why heaven and hell have frequently been depicted as material places but they are spiritual truths. Going to heaven is being joined with God. God is Spirit. Not a place.

Yet it is much easier to envision heaven as a place than as a State of being.

The same with hell. Hell is not a place, it is the state of being in opposition to God for all eternity.

But since we are temporal beings, we envision hell more easily as a place of torment and fire.

What does that have to do with Purgatory?

Well, its easier for us to think of Purgatory as a place where punishment occurs for our sin for a certain amount of time. Yet, Purgatory is outside of time and space. How can time elapse there? It can't.

So, speaking of Purgatory in terms of time and space was simply for us to more easily grasp the concept of "temporal" punishment for sin as opposed to "eternal" punishment for sin (i.e. hell).

In recent years, the Church has changed this manner of speaking:
How to Get an Indulgence (This Rock: September 2006) (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609fea3sb.asp)

Sincerely,

De Maria

Well, its easier for us to think of Purgatory as a place where punishment occurs for our sin for a certain amount of time. Yet, Purgatory is outside of time and space. How can time elapse there? It can't.

The problem is that scripture does not mention purgatory at all, and the doctrine denies the gospel, because if we can pay for even a small part of our sin, we could pay for it all, and Christ died on the cross in vain.

The doctrine of purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9.

Basically all that does is cover 'Judgement day'
Where works will be burned up or refined but the believer will be saved
NO purgatory involved

The problem is that scripture does not mention purgatory at all,

Scripture does not mention purgatory explicitly. But Scripture describes purgatory frequently.

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

Apocalypse 20 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.


and the doctrine denies the gospel, because if we can pay for even a small part of our sin, we could pay for it all, and Christ died on the cross in vain.

What is St. Paul doing when he says?
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Why must we suffer in order to be glorified with Christ?
Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

2 2 Timothy 2 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

How does suffering in the flesh do away with sin?
1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:


The doctrine of purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9.

1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

On the contrary, it supports Purgatory. Cleansing us from iniquity is precisely what Purgatory does for us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Basically all that does is cover 'Judgement day'
where works will be burned up or refined but the believer will be saved
NO purgatory involved

That is precisely what we call Purgatory.

''judgment day'' does not require or involve
Temporal punishment
Does not categorize sins as venial and mortal
Does not imply something you have to atone or make up for

''judgment day'' does not require or involve
temporal punishment
does not categorize sins as venial and mortal
does not imply something you have to atone or make up for

Why do you say that? Is there some resource upon which you are basing your information?

Scripture does not mention purgatory explicitly. But Scripture describes purgatory frequently.

[I]1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

That was not purgatory, but rather Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16). Nothing here suggest a fiery punishment.


Apocalypse 20 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Nothing about purgatory here. This is the resurrection of the dead.


1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Note that this speaks of works not speaking of people in fire.


What is St. Paul doing when he says?

Note all of these refer to what he is suffering while alive in the flesh. Reading scripture in context does wonders at resolving this supposed claims.

I note that you ignored 1 John 1:9.

That was not purgatory, but rather Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16). Nothing here suggest a fiery punishment.

True. Nothing here about Abraham's bosom either. And Luke 16 also describes Purgatory.


Nothing about purgatory here. This is the resurrection of the dead.

Not yet. The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished Where were they for 1000 years?


Note that this speaks of works not speaking of people in fire.

Sins are works of straw.


Note all of these refer to what he is suffering while alive in the flesh. Reading scripture in context does wonders at resolving this supposed claims.

But didn't you say that our suffering did not expiate sin, otherwise Christ died for naught. Do I have to quote you?

And in this verse, St. Paul says he suffers for us filling in his flesh was was WANTING in Christ's.

So, please answer the question posed to you. How can St. Paul suffer for our sin?

How can we suffer for our sins as explained by St. Peter, he who suffers in the flesh CEASES with sin.

Is it perhaps that Jesus died on the Ctross to give us a model that we should follow in His footsteps. He suffered for our sins so that we could suffer for our sins as well?

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

Once you understand the teaching of vicarious suffering, you will understand the concept of expiation of sin, on this earth and in the next.

Matthew 12 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.


I note that you ignored 1 John 1:9.

No I didn't.

I quoted it, bolded the words "cleanse us of sin" and explained that the verse substantiates the concept of Purgatory. It is in purgatory that those who die in an imperfect state of grace are "cleansed of sin".

Sincerely,

De Maria

Why do you say that? Is there some resource upon which you are basing your information?

Because then Jesus died for no reason. The Bible says that God casts our sins away as far as the East is to the West. Do you really believe that we walk around for years carrying our sins until Purgatory? Jesus said cast our burdens on him not walk around with them.
We do not pay for our sins

True. Nothing here about Abraham's bosom either. And Luke 16 also describes Purgatory.

Where is the fire? Where are people paying for their own sins? No, not at all. Not even close.


Not yet. The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished Where were they for 1000 years?

Sigh! Did you notice that there were two resurrections? Did you notice that those who were saved were in the first resurrection. Those who were unsaved were in the second.

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV

So if I were to accept your argument, purgatory is only for the unsaved before they go to hell.


Sins are works of straw.

1 John 1:9 says that Jesus paid the price for ALL sins of those who are saved. The context is that straw are works not honoring to Christ - there is yet nothing about people going through fire to pay for their own sins.


But didn't you say that our suffering did not expiate sin, otherwise Christ died for naught. Do I have to quote you?

So where does scripture say that we suffer to pay the rpcie for our own sin?


So, please answer the question posed to you. How can St. Paul suffer for our sin?

I missed where it says that Paul suffered to pay the rpice for our sin. Please point that out to me.

Where is the fire?

24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.


Where are people paying for their own sins?

What is happening to Dives? Why is he there being tormented in flames? Why does he want Abraham to send someone to his brothers?


No, not at all. Not even close.

Are you sure? Now that I've pointed out the fire, please reread it.


Sigh! Did you notice that there were two resurrections? Did you notice that those who were saved were in the first resurrection. Those who were unsaved were in the second.

Yes, I did. Did you notice that there were some people already given judgement before the first resurrection? They were already sitting on thrones.

4 And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV

So if I were to accept your argument, purgatory is only for the unsaved before they go to hell.

No. You are misreading the Scripture. Not all in the first resurrection avoided the suffering of Purgatory. Only those listed. However, those who did not live for a thousand years were also part of the first resurrection.

In addition, you seem to have consigned all in the second part of this Scripture, all in the Second death, died and went to the pit of fire. But not all in the second group were part of the Second death. Many were part of the Second Resurrection.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne,

These were part of the Second Resurrection.


But the following:

and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

Were part of the Second death.


1 John 1:9 says that Jesus paid the price for ALL sins of those who are saved.

You are reading a great deal into that Scripture:

1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


the context is that straw are works not honoring to Christ - there is yet nothing about people going through fire to pay for their own sins.

Sins are not honoring to Christ. Therefore they are burned away. Divide the Word rightly. Remember that overly emphasizing the literal interpretation kills the Spirit of the Word:

2 Corinthians 3 6 Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth.




So where does scripture say that we suffer to pay the rpcie for our own sin?

1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:


I missed where it says that Paul suffered to pay the rpice for our sin. Please point that out to me.

Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Sincerely,

De Maria

24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

Read carefully - the person who said this was not in Abraham's bosom.

Luke 16:22-23
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV


Yes, I did. Did you notice that there were some people already given judgement before the first resurrection? They were already sitting on thrones.

Nothing about purgatory. I read all of your comments and still nothing which speaks of purgatory and nothing which says that 1 John 1:9 is in error. I undersdtand the part about the judgment and so on and so forth, and there is nothing which says that anyone pays for their own sins in purgatory, nor did any quote that you gave say so.


You are reading a great deal into that Scripture:

Quite a statement after reading how you read purgatory into everything!



1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Did you notice this line:

he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity

No some, not leaving some for us to cleanse ourselves from, but ALL.

Read carefully - the person who said this was not in Abraham's bosom.

I wasn't yet referring to the person in Abraham's bosom. But since you've brought it up again, where is Abraham's bosom?

And where is Dives? Consider the following, he is in a place of suffering where he can look at his fellow souls and cry out with affection saying, "Father Abraham!" and Father Abraham does not repudiate him but responds calling him "Son....".

Where is this man? Is that a description of the hell of the damned? Does any love exist in the abode of the damned?


Luke 16:22-23
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV

Nothing about purgatory.

What is "Hades"?


I read all of your comments and still nothing which speaks of purgatory and nothing which says that 1 John 1:9 is in error.

I never said 1 John 1:9 is in error.

But that is a typical Protestant confusion. You are confusing YOUR INTERPRETATION OF 1 JOHN 1:9 with the Scripture.

It is your interpretation of that verse which I contend is in error. Not the Scripture.


I undersdtand the part about the judgment and so on and so forth, and there is nothing which says that anyone pays for their own sins in purgatory, nor did any quote that you gave say so.

But you've ignored all my question concerning the verses where St. Peter and St. Paul both explain that we pay not only for our own sins but for each others.


Quite a statement after reading how you read purgatory into everything!

And you still haven't addressed any of the questions I asked.


Did you notice this line:

he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity

No some, not leaving some for us to cleanse ourselves from, but ALL.

Did anyone say that we cleanse ourselves from our sin in Purgatory? Who?

And it is Scripture which says that one who suffered in the flesh has ceased with sin and that St. Paul rejoices in his suffering for us. So please address those questions which I asked. How can we cease with sin by suffering in the flesh? And how can St. Paul rejoice in his suffering for us? Not only that but filling in his flesh that which is WANTING in the suffering of Christ?

You keep accusing me of ignoring your questions. But I've answered every one of them. Now its your turn. Answer my questions.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
To attempt to find scriptural support for purgatory you have appealed to Luke 16:24, 1 Peter 3:19, and 1 Corinthians 3:15. I checked out each verse carefully. Here is what I found:

Regarding the use of Luke 16:24, it seems that the fathers are in agreement that the rich man went to hell, not purgatory. Secondly, purgatory is supposedly a temporary state, yet Luke 16:26 indicates that the situation that the rich man finds himself in is permanent. In addition to that, as I understand it, the church teaches that only that those who die in God's grace and friendship go to Purgatory. From the text it does not appear that such was the case for the rich man. Lastly, the pope himself declared that rich man went to hell.

I don't believe that 1 Peter 3:19 is speaking about purgatory. Those that Christ preached to in the prison mentioned in that text were not human. The word translated “spirit” in that text refers to non human spirit beings unless modified in some way. (See also Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14.) As far as I've been able to determine, the church teaches that humans end up in purgatory, not non human spirit beings. If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose?

The use of 1 Corinthians 3:15 is popular among Catholics to support the notion of purgatory, but read carefully and in context, I don't believe that it does so. For instance, if Paul is speaking about purgatory in that text, what is the reward mentioned in v.14 of the 3rd chapter of 1 Corinthians?

Rob

Good points

The rich man went to Hell not purgatory

If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose?

Because then Jesus died for no reason. The Bible says that God casts our sins away as far as the East is to the West. Do you really believe that we walk around for years carrying our sins until Purgatory? Jesus said cast our burdens on him not walk around with them. We do not pay for our sins

Yes we do.

Lets look at how David for a second.

2 Kings 12 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

Why did Nathan say this to David? Had David repented of his sin? Had David been forgiven by God? Yet David paid for his sin by the death of his son:

13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.

Sincerely,

De Maria

13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.

The Lord HATH taken away thy sin... therefore it means David did not have to wait for some purgatory

Hey Nohelp4u, good to know that there are other true believers out there. Keep being led by the desires of the Spirit, not the flesh, that is, the feelings and emotions that God wants us to enjoy, namely, the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace etc. Not by the fruit or desires of the flesh, i.e.. Self indulgence, hate, greed, sexual lust, coveting etc.
The Holy Spirit is teaching me about this over the last couple of weeks. I never thought of it that way before, recognize the feeling and determine if it is from God or the enemy.
Today, I was facing a certain situation, and I felt fear about it. God made me aware of the emotion and I realized that this is not a God emotion. I commanded the fear to go immediately and it did. I chose to feel one of God's emotions, to be strong and of good courage and of course, joy, and not only did I get victory over the feeling, but I was blessed in the situation also. God is so good!
God put it in my heart a few weeks ago to discover His nature, the nature of Christ being formed in us. I Nehemiah 9:17, the last half of the verse, it says, " You are a God of forgiveness, gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness."
That's the nature and the feelings that I want, how about you?

Hebrews 1:3 (New American Standard Bible)

3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(Nohelp4u- I added this reply for the content, I know you understand. Peace.)

God has been showing me that being free in your spirit is not about a bunch of man made do and don'ts but of course you have to back everything up with what God has to say.
Too many people are caught up in their religious formulas and set God and the leading of the Holy Spirit aside to the point they are blind to what 'set your spirit free' really means.

It appears that rhadsen has done a good job at addressing some of your mis-understandings, so I do not need to repe4at that which he has already addressed.

[quote]I never said 1 John 1:9 is in error.

Good because if it is not in error, then you must accept that jesus paid the price for ALL inquity and takes away ALL inquity from all who are saved. That being the case, we cannot pay the price for any sin if we are saved, since it has already been paid.


But you've ignored all my question concerning the verses where St. Peter and St. Paul both explain that we pay not only for our own sins but for each others.

You have not shown me any verses that say that they paid the price for their sins or others.. Only that they suffered for the sake of the gospel. That is much different.


Did anyone say that we cleanse ourselves from our sin in Purgatory? Who?

Trying to backtrack? So if you are now saying that we do not pay the rpcie for sin in purgatory, then what is your claim for the purpose of purgatory?


And it is Scripture which says that one who suffered in the flesh has ceased with sin and that St. Paul rejoices in his suffering for us. So please address those questions which I asked. How can we cease with sin by suffering in the flesh? And how can St. Paul rejoice in his suffering for us? Not only that but filling in his flesh that which is WANTING in the suffering of Christ?

Read the context - He is referring clearly to suffering for the sake of promoting the truth of scripture. If you can find any verse which says that he is paying the rpice for his or anyone else's sin, please post that verse.

I already responded to this message but I missed this comment:


.... Do you really believe that we walk around for years carrying our sins until Purgatory? ....

No, if you have made satisfaction for your sins.

Yes if you haven't.

Along with Purgatory is the accompanying doctrine of the Purgative Way.

In other words, whatever we sin we haven't repented and satisfied in this life, will be cleansed in the next in Purgatory.

Simple example:

Your son has broken the neighbors window. He repents and says he is sorry. Is the neighbor satisfied? Probably not.

But your son doesn't have the money to pay for the window to be fixed. What to do? You, the parent pay for the window and your son pays you back out of his allowance.

Even if you don't demand your son pay you back for the window, the neighbor is paid and the debt satisfied.

This example also explains indulgences. You have paid and made satisfaction for the your son's sin.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus paid for our sins and God knows or heart and it is up to God to forgive us.
Judgment day is about are works being tested not our salvation.

I'm glad TJ mentioned you in his(?) next post. I missed your message the first time around. Good question.


De Maria,
To attempt to find scriptural support for purgatory you have appealed to Luke 16:24, 1 Peter 3:19, and 1 Corinthians 3:15. I checked out each verse carefully. Here is what I found:

Regarding the use of Luke 16:24, it seems that the fathers are in agreement that the rich man went to hell, not purgatory.

I don't think you've read all the Fathers. I'm pretty sure some of them must think it was Purgatory, because a man a bit more Catholic than I, Pope Benedict XVI says it is Purgatory in Spe Salve:

45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory.
"Spe Salvi" - Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI on Christian Hope (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html)

Considering that this man was also the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith before he was Pope. I think he knows a bit more about Catholic Doctrine than either you or I.


Secondly, purgatory is supposedly a temporary state, yet Luke 16:26 indicates that the situation that the rich man finds himself in is permanent.

Where?


In addition to that, as I understand it, the church teaches that only that those who die in God’s grace and friendship go to Purgatory. From the text it does not appear that such was the case for the rich man.

On the contrary, in the text, Dives calls St. Abraham, "Father" and Father Abraham calls him "Son" in return. Therefore this person died in an imperfect state of grace.


Lastly, the pope himself declared that rich man went to hell.

See Spe Salve above.


I don’t believe that 1 Peter 3:19 is speaking about purgatory. Those that Christ preached to in the prison mentioned in that text were not human.

You should have taken the time to read one more verse:

19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.


The word translated “spirit” in that text refers to non human spirit beings unless modified in some way.

The fact is that the word "spirit" is frequently interchanged with the word "soul" in the Bible.



(See also Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14.)

Better idea. Why don't you quote them and explain your interpretation. Then I can see more easily what you are thinking. Otherwise you force me to make assumptions and that iis not helpful to a good discussion.


As far as I’ve been able to determine, the church teaches that humans end up in purgatory, not non human spirit beings. If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose?

To preach to His children who will soon be joining Him in Heaven.


The use of 1 Corinthians 3:15 is popular among Catholics to support the notion of purgatory, but read carefully and in context, I don’t believe that it does so. For instance, if Paul is speaking about purgatory in that text, what is the reward mentioned in v.14 of the 3rd chapter of 1 Corinthians?

The reward is always heaven.


Rob

Sincerely,

De Maria

It appears that rhadsen has done a good job at addressing some of your mis-understandings,

He asked some good hard questions. Thanks for pointing it out.


so I do not need to repe4at that which he has already addressed.

I appreciate that. I don't mind repeating myself. But it does get tedious.


Good because if it is not in error, then you must accept that jesus paid the price for ALL inquity and takes away ALL inquity from all who are saved. That being the case, we cannot pay the price for any sin if we are saved, since it has already been paid.

The only way you can make that understanding out of this verse is to take it out of Scripture all together.

However, we are taught that the entire Scriptures were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit says in one verse that we must make satisfaction for our sins. We can't disregard that verse.

Again, if we see that David had to pay for the temporal effects of his sin by the death of his child even though God had already forgiven him. Then we must make satisfaction for effects of our sins even though God has already forgiven us. God doesn't change.


You have not shown me any verses that say that they paid the price for their sins or others.. Only that they suffered for the sake of the gospel. That is much different.

What you should do is answer the questions I asked you. They hold the key to your understanding this topic.

If St. Paul isn't talking about suffering for our sin, then why is he suffering and making up for the suffering which he says is WANTING in the suffering of Christ. Didn't Christ suffer and die for our sins? So, please quit ignoring the questions any longer.

Why do we cease from sin when we suffer in the flesh? Answer the questions.


Trying to backtrack? So if you are now saying that we do not pay the rpcie for sin in purgatory, then what is your claim for the purpose of purgatory?

Backtrack? Your ignorance of Catholic doctrine is what is preventing your understanding of what I am saying.

Answer the question. Who said that "we" cleansed "ourselves" in Purgatory? Who?

Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ:
Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Read the context - He is referring clearly to suffering for the sake of promoting the truth of scripture. If you can find any verse which says that he is paying the rpice for his or anyone else's sin, please post that verse.

Neither of them is talking abouit suffering for promoting the Gospel. Read the context yourself. [/quote]

St. Peter says "suffer in flesh, cease with sin." Therefore suffeirng in the flesh eliminates sin.

And St. Paul is says he is adding to the suffering "WANTING" in the suffering of Christ. Did Christ suffer for our sins or not? Then St. Paul says he is suffering for our sins also.

But lets go back to the Master:
Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Christ took up the Cross for our sins. Whose sins do we take up with our cross?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus paid for our sins and God knows or heart and it is up to God to forgive us.

So we play no part? Then why does Scripture say:

Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.


Judgment day is about are works being tested not our salvation.

You have explained purgatory. All in Purgatory have built on the foundation of Christ:

1 Corinthians 3 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus.

Sincerely,

De Maria

What Bible verse says we must make satisfaction other than to repent?

If St. Paul isn't talking about suffering for our sin, then why is he suffering and making up for the suffering which he says is WANTING in the suffering of Christ.
Yes we can suffer for our sins HERE on earth but does that say we suffer for our sins after death in some purgatory? I really do not see it!

Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ:
Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Just as you claim that hath seems to mean afterlife when the context is the here and now you seem to be doing the same thing with this verse.
They are both already here for the believer not something that happens in purgatory.


Christ took up the Cross for our sins. Whose sins do we take up with our cross?
Agreed so why do you insist it is something that purgatory has to take care of??

So we play no part? Then why does Scripture say:

Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That is like separating the gift from the giver.
What is your point
Sounds totally taken out of context

Jesus gave us the opportunity to come after him and follow him
It is up to us to follow so how does that prove purgatory?

That is like separating the gift from the giver.
What is your point
sounds totally taken out of context

Jesus gave us the opportunity to come after him and follow him
it is up to us to follow so how does that prove purgatory?

At this point we have moved from Purgatory to paying the satisfaction for our sins. Jesus didn't just say follow Him. He said, "TAKE UP YOUR CROSS and follow me."

Scripture Itself tells you what that means:

Galatians 5 24 And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences.

1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.


What example did Jesus give that we should follow? He suffered and died for our sins. Therefore, take up your cross and suffer for your sins and for your fellow man:

John 15 13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Oh so you switched up the conversation from purgatory. I thought you were trying to use that verse to back up purgatory

Oh so you switched up the conversation from purgatory.

Not completely.


I thought you were trying to use that verse to back up purgatory

Yes, it does back up Purgatory.

In Purgatory, we pay for the effects of our sins which we haven't paid for in this life.

Lets get back to the example of David's sin. God forgave him and erased his sin. But the effects of his sin remained. Specifically, because David gave occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme (2 Kings 12 26), David's son had to die.

If David's son had not died in payment for David's sin, and if David had not made reparation in another manner before his death. David himself would have paid for this sin in Purgatory.

So first we have to establish that there is a doctrine of suffering for expiation of sin in this life. Then we can prove that for those who love God but die in an imperfect state of grace, there is also expiation of sin in the next.

You follow?

Sincerely,

De Maria

what Bible verse says we must make satisfaction other than to repent?

Let us see if you are truly not a believer of Sola Scriptura. I have already provided the verse of David and the death of his first son by Bathsheba. That is Scripture. But we also have everyday life to teach us that one must make satisfaction for one's sins. Is man more just than God? Let us recall then the story of the child who breaks the window. Would you consider the child sincere if he merely asked to be forgiven but did not offer to pay for the damage he had done?


Yes we can suffer for our sins HERE on earth but does that say we suffer for our sins after death in some purgatory? I really do not see it!

That's OK. But you are miles ahead of any other nonCatholic with which I've spoken on this topic.

So tell me, what is keeping us from suffering for our sins after death? Is God not merciful enough to cleanse us Himself before we enter heaven. After all, nothing impure will enter therein (Rev 21:27) and how many people die in a state of perfect purity?


Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ:
Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Just as you claim that hath seems to mean afterlife when the context is the here and now you seem to be doing the same thing with this verse. They are both already here for the believer not something that happens in purgatory.

There's more than one verse that speaks of washing in the blood of Christ and not all of them are fixed in the here and now.

Apocalypse 7 14 And I said to him: My Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Agreed so why do you insist it is something that purgatory has to take care of??

So, you agree that we pay for our sins? Please answer that question. Once you do we can proceed to explain how God continues the process of purification which was begun in this world if we die imperfectly purified.

Philippians 1 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he, who hath begun a good work in you, will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus.


Sincerely,

De Maria

Lets get back to the example of David's sin. God forgave him and erased his sin. But the effects of his sin remained. Specifically, because David gave occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme (2 Kings 12 26), David's son had to die.

If David's son had not died in payment for David's sin, and if David had not made reparation in another manner before his death. David himself would have paid for this sin in Purgatory.

So tell me, what is keeping us from suffering for our sins after death?

So if your circumstances like child dying and all the suffering we go through for not repenting take care of our unrepented sin why would God allow us to die with unrepented sin so that there has to be a purgatory? Why wouldn't he just allow you to suffer all the punishment here on earth?
I understand God purifies our works through the fire but I don't see it quite the way you explain it with purgatory.

So if your circumstances like child dying and all the suffering we go through for not repenting take care of our unrepented sin why would God allow us to die with unrepented sin so that there has to be a purgatory? Why wouldn't he just allow you to suffer all the punishment here on earth?

1. I don't think you yet understand. We are not purified of unrepented sin. We are purified of the effects of sin which we committed for which we have repented and been forgiven. Look again at the example of David. He repented and was forgiven. But he had to pay for the effects of his sin.

2. As for why God does what He does? God's ways are far above our ways. But I believe God's ways are just. To put it simply, "I don't make up the rules. I just follow them. "


I understand God purifies our works through the fire but I don't see it quite the way you explain it with purgatory.

Where do our works reside and what does it mean to purify our works?

We believe it means to purify our souls since we don't take anything with us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

He repented and was forgiven. But he had to pay for the effects of his sin.

That is exactly what does not make sense.
If Jesus died for our sins
We repented of our sins
We had earthly 'punishment' for our sins

WHY would we have to go through a purgatory that seems like saying Jesus didn't finish our forgiveness on the cross. Jesus DID say it is finished

The only way you can make that understanding out of this verse is to take it out of Scripture all together.


Are you denying that sin is iniquity or that inquity is sin?


However, we are taught that the entire Scriptures were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit says in one verse that we must make satisfaction for our sins. We can't disregard that verse.


Then show us the verse that says that we must pay the price in part of whole for our sins and let's look at it in context.


Again, if we see that David had to pay for the temporal effects of his sin by the death of his child even though God had already forgiven him.

Perhaps you are mixing up consequence of sin with paying the price for sin.


Then we must make satisfaction for effects of our sins even though God has already forgiven us.

Suffering the consequences of sin has nothing whatsoever to do with satisfaction for the price of sin.


What you should do is answer the questions I asked you.

How many times must I answer? I dealt with them over and over.

The Bible, the true word of God, never uses the word Purgatory. (It is no where in the Bible) It was introduced by the Catholic church during the dark ages (called dark, because there is NO LIGHT in them) to help instill fear and raise revenue. Sorry put that's the truth. When you die, your dead. The Bible states that death is a sleep. And there are only two resurections. Christ's 2nd coming is the first resurection. After the 1000 years then the wicked will be raised and that's judgement day. Blessed are those that are raised in the 1st resurection.

Hebrews 1:3
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 7:27-28
Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

I don't see where there is room for purgatory in any of these verses

Okay maybe you could explain the difference between the judgment day for believers and purgatory and how they relate to each other.

From everything I read I just can't see it. To me
Purgatory is saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is not good enough to satisfy the demands and payment for sin. Purgatory must satisfy part of the payment for sins through suffering after death. That is a works salvation, which makes it a totally false salvation.

Do Catholics still have to pay to get their loved ones out of purgatory? If they don't why has that changed?
Did the Catholic saints have to go through purgatory?
Is the length of time in purgatory longer for people that have more sins?
What is the longest and what is the shortest that a person spends in purgatory?

That is exactly what does not make sense.

So you must see in order to believe? Did you not quote to me this verse:
"Lean not on your own understanding"?


If Jesus died for our sins

He did.


we repented of our sins

I have. I hope you have as well.


we had earthly 'punishment' for our sins

We did? Are you sure? Then you owe nothing in repayment for God's love?

Romans 13 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another. For he that loveth his neighbour, hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 8 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

Even the Jews knew that they had unknown faults:
Psalms 18 13 Who can understand sins? from my secret ones cleanse me, O Lord:


WHY would we have to go through a purgatory that seems like saying Jesus didn't finish our forgiveness on the cross. Jesus DID say it is finished

That is true. Jesus did finish. But you misunderstood what He finished.

But Scripture is clear. By dying on the Cross He gave us an example to follow:

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.


Jesus didn't suffer and die so that we wouldn't suffer and die. Jesus suffered and died so that our suffering and death would be meritorious in the sight of God. Just as He was baptized so that we would be baptized.

Do we no longer die because He died? Yes we die. And if we die in Christ we also rise in Him.

Do we no longer suffer? Yes we suffer. And if we suffer with Him we will be glorified with Him.

But nothing impure will enter heaven. How many of us have been perfectly purified on this earth before we die? Therefore, God in His Mercy, Himself purifies us in His Fire so that we may enter heaven. God in His Mercy, Himself purifies us in the Blood of the Lamb so that we may enter heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I did not say I have to see to believe WHERE did you get that?
How can you even come to that conclusion after all I did say I believe in judgment day.

I have. I hope you have as well.
That is a non answer.

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

So you believe that Jesus was not sacrificed for our sins but merely an example!?
That even throws out the whole Old Testament and the Jews sacrifices that lead up to Jesus death!

Are you denying that sin is iniquity or that inquity is sin?

No.


Then show us the verse that says that we must pay the price in part of whole for our sins and let's look at it in context.

Acts Of Apostles 26 20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.


Perhaps you are mixing up consequence of sin with paying the price for sin.

There is very little difference. But in David's case, Scripture is explicit:

2 Kings 12 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.


That is the effect of David's sin.


Suffering the consequences of sin has nothing whatsoever to do with satisfaction for the price of sin.

You'll have to show me where Scripture says that.


How many times must I answer? I dealt with them over and over.

I must not have seen them. Point to them or deal with them again.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Bible, the true word of God, never uses the word Purgatory.

Nor does it use the word Trinity.


(It is no where in the Bible) It was introduced by the Catholic church

So was the word Trinity, Incarnation, and others.


during the dark ages (called dark, because there is NO LIGHT in them)

There is actually a great deal of light in them for those who see that during that time, the Catholic Church was the light of the world. Untiring in bringing the light of Christ to the ends of the earth.


to help instill fear and raise revenue.

Typical anti-Catholic bigotry. Since you can't engage in a sensible religious and Scriptural discussion, you resort to spreading lies.

Please, if you want to have a polite discussion, provide the details for these accusations. Otherwise admit that you have no idea what you are talking about. The only fear which the Church instilled throughout the ages was the "fear of God" which is the beginning of wisdom. And the only revenues they collected were the tithes which were used to build temples to God most high and to help the poor.


Sorry put that's the truth. When you die, your dead. The Bible states that death is a sleep. And there are only two resurections. Christ's 2nd coming is the first resurection. After the 1000 years then the wicked will be raised and that's judgement day. Blessed are those that are raised in the 1st resurection.

I have already handled these objections to Catholic Teaching. Please refer to message #38. Please review that message and address it. We can continue from there:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-4.html?highlight=first+resurrection#post1171619

Sincerely,

De Maria

I did not say I have to see to believe WHERE did you get that?

Frequently, in common speech, people say, "I see!" to mean "I understand".

It is in that context that I used the statement "must you see to believe?" In other words, must you understand in order to believe?


How can you even come to that conclusion after all I did say I believe in judgment day.

Because you said:

That is exactly what does not make sense.


That is a non answer.

There was no question to answer. I was simply breaking down your response point by point.


So you believe that Jesus was not sacrificed for our sins but merely an example!? That even throws out the whole Old Testament and the Jews sacrifices that lead up to Jesus death!

Where did you get that?

Jesus certainly was sacrificed for our sins. But Jesus did not suffer so that we shouldn't.

Scripture is clear, if we don't suffer for our sins and for our fellow man and for the Gospel, we are not children of God:

Hebrews 12 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.

Now, is chastisement punishment for sin or not?

If it is then Scripture is clear that we suffer for our sins.

Oh, and I notice that you always claim that your beliefs must be backed up by Scripture. Yet I seem to be the only one producing Scripture in our exchanges.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

In fact
Why would God go through telling us of the different Judgments for the non-believers, the believers, the nations, etc... and he would detail the crowns and all
He even shows us about the seals and the trumpets yet for some odd reason he doesn't give any detail on purgatory.
Why is that?

DeMaria, Are you somehow saying the authority of the church here on earth somehow can help us in paying back for our penance?

I feel we can expect to be given a lesson in teaching from the Father when we make the wrong choices on our path in life. And that we are told to rejoice in His teaching.

Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Proverbs 22:8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

Right. And perhaps he could explain this passage in light of his belief in purgatory:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

Hard to fit purgatory into that unless Jesus is in purgatory.

No.

Okay if inquity is sin, then let's look again at 1 John 1:9

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

So, he cleanses us from sin/inquity. So what is left?

And if we can pay the price for any sin, why could we not pay the price for ALL sin. The doctrine of purgatory therefore makes the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross un-necessary.

Okay if inquity is sin, then let's look again at 1 John 1:9

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

So, he cleanses us from sin/inquity. So what is left?

Where and when does He cleanse us from all unrighteousness?


And if we can pay the price for any sin, why could we not pay the price for ALL sin.

We do. Thanks be to God, Jesus died for our sins so that we could pay the price for our sins.

Again, lets look at the case of the child who breaks the neighbors window. You have to pay the price for the window because the child has no money of his own. Do you let the child go unpunished?

No, the child must now pay you for the price of the window or at least suffer some consequences. Am I right?


The doctrine of purgatory therefore makes the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross un-necessary.

No. The doctrine of purgatory applies the merits of the Jesus' sacrifice directly on our sins. Since at this point, we can no longer make satisfaction on our own. It is the Father making payment for the sins which we didn't have the wherewithal to pay ourselves.

And this is clearly evident when St. Paul says, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ., Obviously, Christ left something for us to do. His suffering was WANTING. And St. Paul suffered to make up for those wantings. And this is an example for you to follow:

1 Corinthians 11 1 Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

But that is different isn't it? Does Scripture say that either you or Tom are Pillars of Truth?

If not, why do you exhalt yourselves above the Church? Are you infallible? Please answer the question.


You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

I'm sorry, did you answer the question on what are works of iniquity?

As for will it happen after death? Well, we are judged after we die are we not? If we look at 1 Cor 3:15, this man is being judged and his "works" tested.

Now I believe "works of iniquity" are sins. And I believe works of iniquity are the same as works of straw which will burn.

Now, sins do remain in the soul, as I think you agree. And if works of iniquity are being burned away, then the soul is being purified.

I hope that answers your question. Please answer mine. What are works of iniquity to you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Right. And perhaps he could explain this passage in light of his belief in purgatory:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

Hard to fit purgatory into that unless Jesus is in purgatory.

Not at all Tom.

First, Scripture says that:

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Who do you think is testing your works? Who do you think I believe is purifying our soul? Certainly it isn't a real fire in an actual stove. It is God!

Therefore, this verse explains it all very well.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

But if not, let me give you a bit of background. What are the Seraphim? The burning ones. Why are they burning? Because they are close to God.

It is God, the Consuming Fire who is burning with love for us. It is into this Fire that we who are going to Heaven will be thrust. But we won't be burned. We will be like the Seraphim:

Exodus 3 2 And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt.

But those who are imperfectly pure will suffer loss, but they will be saved:

Proverbs 17 3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

And those who have hated God all their lives and want nothing to do with Him will suffer His presence anyway. Where would they go?

Acts Of Apostles 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and are;....

Psalms 138 8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

Sincerely,

De Maria

In fact
Why would God go through telling us of the different Judgments for the non-believers, the believers, the nations, etc..... and he would detail the crowns and all
He even shows us about the seals and the trumpets yet for some odd reason he doesn't give any detail on purgatory.
why is that?

He does. But you simply don't recognize it.

That is not what I meant I meant the teachings we believe from our church beliefs and the doctrines we follow.

What are the works of iniquities are sin --which is separate from good works
Works of straw are what I explained are good works that you do to please God that do not please him.


Quote: De Maria

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

But that is different isn't it? Does Scripture say that either you or Tom are Pillars of Truth?

If not, why do you exhalt yourselves above the Church? Are you infallible? Please answer the question.

-----
You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

I'm sorry, did you answer the question on what are works of iniquity?

As for will it happen after death? Well, we are judged after we die are we not? If we look at 1 Cor 3:15, this man is being judged and his "works" tested.

Now I believe "works of iniquity" are sins. And I believe works of iniquity are the same as works of straw which will burn.

Now, sins do remain in the soul, as I think you agree.
NO I said that Jesus sacrifice cleanses us from all sin.

AND I still do not see where you get purgatory other than a Pope/the Church started it in whatever century

Where and when does He cleanse us from all unrighteousness?

Sigh! How many times is it necessary to post the reference?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV


Jesus died for our sins so that we could pay the price for our sins.

Really?

Heb 1:1-3
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

Note that salvation is a gift, not something that we must pay for, assuming that we had any way to pay the price for our sins. And we certainly do not pay after we are dead - the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us while we are alive:

Rom 6:22-23
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
NKJV

Note that Paul is speaking to the Christians in Rome, and saying that they are free from sin.


Again, lets look at the case of the child who breaks the neighbors window. You have to pay the price for the window because the child has no money of his own. Do you let the child go unpunished?

So are you saying that Jesus lied, and that He did not pay the price for our sins on the cross? Are you saying that God must abide by your judgment and not forgive us of our sins through the cleansing of the blood?

Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

I hope that answers your question. Please answer mine. What are works of iniquity to you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Christ is worthy as the Savior of the World!! Mine are redeemed.. as a believer in Christ..

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Not at all Tom.

First, Scripture says that:

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Who do you think is testing your works? Who do you think I believe is purifying our soul? Certainly it isn't a real fire in an actual stove. It is God!

Therefore, this verse explains it all very well.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

But if not, let me give you a bit of background. What are the Seraphim? The burning ones. Why are they burning? Because they are close to God.

It is God, the Consuming Fire who is burning with love for us. It is into this Fire that we who are going to Heaven will be thrust. But we won't be burned. We will be like the Seraphim:

Exodus 3 2 And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt.

But those who are imperfectly pure will suffer loss, but they will be saved:

Proverbs 17 3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

And those who have hated God all their lives and want nothing to do with Him will suffer His presence anyway. Where would they go?

Acts Of Apostles 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and are;....

Psalms 138 8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I noticed in that whole list of verses taken out of context, you did not once address the verse that I posted:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

We are present with the Lord, not in purgatory. Quoted it once, but did not address it.

I noticed in that whole list of verses taken out of context, you did not once address the verse that I posted:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

We are present with the Lord, not in purgatory. Quoted it once, but did not address it.

Read it again. Its right there. To summarize, if the Lord is God and if God is the Consuming Fire, it is God who purifies us in Purgatory when we die and are present with Him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Christ is worthy as the Savior of the World!! Mine are redeemed.. as a believer in Christ..

No doubt!


Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The question is, "what are works of iniquity?"

Sincerely,

De Maria

The question is, "what are works of iniquity?"

Sincerely,

De Maria

I thought that you already agreed that sin is iniquity. Are you backtracking on that?

Read it again. Its right there. To summarize, if the Lord is God and if God is the Consuming Fire, it is God who purifies us in Purgatory when we die and are present with Him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sigh! So you are saying that heaven is purgatory and is flaming punishment for our sins?

Look at the context of that passage. It would be hard to force fit purgatory anywhere into it:

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
NKJV

And if Jesus cleansed us from all iniquity, there is nothing to burn.

No doubt!


The question is, "what are works of iniquity?"

Sincerely,

De Maria

1) the condition of without law

a) because ignorant of it

b) because of violating it

2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

DeMaria I ask again, Are you somehow saying the authority of the church here on earth somehow can help us in paying back for our penance?

I feel we can expect to be given a lesson in teaching from the Father when we make the wrong choices on our path in life. And that we are told to rejoice in His teaching.

Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Proverbs 22:8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I still want to know why if God can elaborate on the Judgments, the crowns, the seals and the trumpets why would he neglect mentioning going to purgatory to cleanse any undealt with sin?

I still want to know why if God can elaborate on the Judgments, the crowns, the seals and the trumpets why would he neglect mentioning going to purgatory to cleanse any undealt with sin?

There is a 2nd advent period of teaching before the final fire pit.. And there are 2 sides in heaven refer; as the gulf... Knowing that the one side is for righteousness and the other side for torment. DEMaria, is this what the church is calling purgatory?

2nd advent period of teaching before the final fire pit. Where in the Bible is that?

2nd advent period of teaching before the final fire pit. where in the Bible is that?

Good question!

And the reference to the 2 sides in heaven is also not in scripture - I think that he is mixing up heaven with Hades and Abraham's Bosom, where there are two sides and a gulf.

Yeah what I was thinking sndby meant too but I always thought that that 'gulf' was done away with after Jesus resurrection?

Sigh! How many times is it necessary to post the reference?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when.


Really?

Really.


Heb 1:1-3
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV

Note the word "purged". This is precisely the root word of "Purgatory".


Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

That is true. No denial of purgatory here.


Note that salvation is a gift,

As is Purgatory. It is a gift of God's mercy for those who are not pure enough to enter heaven.


not something that we must pay for, assuming that we had any way to pay the price for our sins.

And yet we must work.

James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.



And we certainly do not pay after we are dead - the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us while we are alive:

Rom 6:22-23
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
NKJV

Then why do we hope?

Romans 8 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.

Are we already perfect?

Philippians 3 12 Not as though I has already attained, or were already perfect; but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus.


Note that Paul is speaking to the Christians in Rome, and saying that they are free from sin.

But why does he, two verses prior say that they are infirm of the flesh. Is it because they might backslide?

19 I speak an human thing, because of the infirmity of your flesh. For as you have yielded your members to serve uncleanness and iniquity, unto iniquity; so now yield your members to serve justice, unto sanctification.



So are you saying that Jesus lied, and that He did not pay the price for our sins on the cross?

No. Again, the example of the child who breaks the window. If the Father pays the neighbor. This is like Christ paying for our sins. But then, if the father punishes the child or requires the child to pay from his allowance. This is like us having to pay for our sins, even though Christ has already paid for them as well.

1 Corinthians 11 32 But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world.


Are you saying that God must abide by your judgment and not forgive us of our sins through the cleansing of the blood?

See 1 Cor 11:32 above. It is God who judges, God who chastises us, because we are His children:

Hebrews 12 6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Tell me, why are we chastised if not for our sins?


Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

And yet:
31 Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.

So what does that mean? Do you think that St. Paul is teaching we must not work? Read Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11 7 By faith Noe, having received an answer concerning those things which as yet were not seen, moved with fear, framed the ark for the saving of his house, by the which he condemned the world; and was instituted heir of the justice which is by faith.

Hebrews 11 8 By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Isn't it funny, by faith the Saints worked?

Oh and we are debtors:
Romans 8 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Whom do we owe, what must we repay?

Sincerely,

De Maria

yeah what I was thinking sndby meant too but I always thought that that 'gulf' was done away with after Jesus resurrection?

Scripture appears to suggest that when Jesus was resurrected, those who were in Abraham's bosom were brought into heaven.

Yeah that is the way I took it and then there was no need for that place any more because they were waiting for that day.

This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when.

Scripture does indeed. I pointed this out to you.

Rom 6:22-23
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
NKJV


Note the word "purged". This is precisely the root word of "Purgatory".

Exactly and since Jesus already purged the sins of believers (past tense), there is nothing for us to purge.

End of story.


That is true. No denial of purgatory here.

Actually there is. We don't pay for a gift.


Oh and we are debtors:
Romans 8 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Whom do we owe, what must we repay?

Read the context:

Rom 8:12-17
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Those who live according top the flesh have a debt to pay. Those who are saved are heirs.

Let's also go back earlier in this passage:

Rom 8:1-11
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV

BTW, in the past you have demonstrated a tendency tp keep making your messages longer and longer until it was impossible to follow the thread. You will note, as I have told you this in the past - if you choose to post a long message rather than focusing on the point that you are trying to make, I will choose to boil your post down to what I think is the key focus of you message and focus on that point. Thus, if you want a point to stand out, keep your messages short and to the point.

We are purified of the effects of sin which we committed for which we have repented and been forgiven.
why would we have to be purified of something that God said he cast away as far as the East is from the West?
Sounds like double jeopardy to me!

yeah what I was thinking sndby meant too but I always thought that that 'gulf' was done away with after Jesus resurrection?

No I would have the opinion that that today, there are thousands who still do not find Christ as their Savior. And of course we have murderers and etc.. Thus there is still the need for the gulf.

No I would have the opinion that that today, there are thousands who still do not find Christ as their Savior. And of course we have murderers and ect.. Thus there is still the need for the the gulf.

That gulf is not in heaven. Those who have not received Christ as Saviour are on their way to hell, a place of fire in punishment for sin. Those who are saved are heading for heaven.

For some reason De Maria seems to think that he or she is headed for a fiery place of punishment for his/her sins which he prefers to call "purgatory" <grin>.

Good question!

And the reference to the 2 sides in heaven is also not in scripture - I think that he is mixing up heaven with Hades and Abraham's Bosom, where there are two sides and a gulf.

No I am not mixed:) there will be a 1000 year period.. Revlation 20:5 refer to it as the first resurrection

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
Revelation20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
The second death Revation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As for the gulf I thought you all knew we go straight to heaven once we leave our bodies on earth which is when we die for real here on earth. (No fear in death) Luke 16: 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

Catholic purgatory crucifies Jesus afresh by claiming that Jesus' death was not sufficient to cleanse sin. It is the equivalent of good works that God condemned in Matt 7

You have not only rejected the grace of God, you have shamefully crucified Christ among you." Paul employs the same phraseology in Hebrews 6:6: "Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

It should make any person afraid to hear Paul say that those who seek to be justified by the Law, not only deny Christ, but also crucify Him anew. If those who seek to be justified by the Law and its works are crucifiers of Christ, what are they, I like to know, who seek salvation by the filthy rags of their own work-righteousness?

Can there be anything more horrible than the papacy, an alliance of people who crucify Christ in themselves, in the Church, and in the hearts of the believers?

Of all the diseased and vicious doctrines of the papacy the worst is this: "If you want to serve God you must earn your own remission of sins and everlasting life, and in addition help others to obtain salvation by giving them the benefit of your extra work-holiness." Monks, friars, and all the rest of them brag that besides the ordinary requirements common to all Christians, they do the works of supererogation, i.e. the performance of more than is required. This is certainly a fiendish illusion.

No wonder Paul employs such sharp language in his effort to recall the Galatians from the doctrine of the false apostles. He says to them: "Don't you realize what you have done? You have crucified Christ anew because you seek salvation by the Law."

True, Christ can no longer be crucified in person, but He is crucified in us when we reject grace, faith, free remission of sins and endeavor to be justified by our own works, or by the works of the Law.

The Apostle is incensed at the presumptuousness of any person who thinks he can perform the Law of God to his own salvation. He charges that person with the atrocity of crucifying anew the Son of God.

No I am not mixed:) there will be a 1000 year period ..Revlation 20:5 refer to it as the first resurrection

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
Revelation20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
The second death Revation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As for the gulf I thought you all knew we go straight to heaven once we leave our bodies on earth which is when we die for real here on earth. (No fear in death) Luke 16: 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

What does the first and second resurrection prove or disprove about purgatory?


Yes we know about the gulf but your previous statement made it sound like you were saying that that is purgatory.

What does the first and second resurrection prove or disprove about purgatory?


Yes we know about the gulf but your previous statement made it sound like you were saying that that is purgatory.

I am just asking if that might be how this church assumed the word purgatory. It is not in the bible yet scripture does tell us of first resurrection and followed by final fire of pit that would be dooms day for satan and his followers.

The fact that there is a 1000 year period with Priest of God, we could need the time for teaching to any that did not hear or was taught falsely. God is not an unfair God. A 1000 years without temptation of satan is wonderful.

As for paying for sin in purgatory NO! I agree Chirst wash the sins away for those who believe in Him.

And as for the church doing anything to declare payment needed for sin, that sounds very prideful... We know who the pride comes from and I would hope it was rebuked.

I do believe we need to have God teach us along our path.. we reap what we sow. . And rejoice in it.. we are not perfect.

I hope this is clear.

Well if the that is the case then the millennium would be just as the Jehovah Witnesses teach and that would make the Catholic church and the Jehovah Witnesses believing the same.
Which it is starting to look to me like they do both believe Jesus sacrifice was not good enough. Same theory different ways works during the millenium/purgatory require works.

Scripture does indeed. I pointed this out to you.

Rom 6:22-23
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
NKJV

David had also been set free from sin, yet he had to pay for it:
The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

So, you are misrepresenting what it means to be set free from sin.


Exactly and since Jesus already purged the sins of believers (past tense), there is nothing for us to purge. End of story.

True. Purgatory is God purging us of sin. End of story.


Actually there is. We don't pay for a gift.

True. Neither faith nor works can merit salvation.

And yet, if we do not have faith and do not work, we will not be saved.

Isn't that a paradox? How do you explain it?

Is it possible that Jesus died on the Cross so that we could merit our salvation?

Yeah, I think that's the case, because even the hardest worker of all, St. Abraham, he had not entered heaven until Jesus died on the Cross.


Read the context:

Rom 8:12-17
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Those who live according top the flesh have a debt to pay. Those who are saved are heirs.

Sorry, try again. St. Paul says, "WE" are debtors. And St. Paul doesn't live according to the flesh.


Let's also go back earlier in this passage:

Rom 8:1-11
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV

BTW, in the past you have demonstrated a tendency tp keep making your messages longer and longer until it was impossible to follow the thread. You will note, as I have told you this in the past - if you choose to post a long message rather than focusing on the point that you are trying to make, I will choose to boil your post down to what I think is the key focus of you message and focus on that point. Thus, if you want a point to stand out, keep your messages short and to the point.

Feel free to boil down to the point you want to highlight. Just don't misrepresent my words.

BTW, this last reference of yours has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Sincerely,

De Maria

yeah that is the way I took it and then there was no need for that place any more because they were waiting for that day.

No need for that place anymore?

Could you substantiate that with Scripture please?

Well if the that is the case then the millennium would be just as the Jehovah Witnesses teach and that would make the Catholic church and the Jehovah Witnesses believing the same.
Which it is starting to look to me like they do both believe Jesus sacrifice was not good enough. Same theory different ways works during the millenium/purgatory require works.

I don't know what the Jehovah's teach on this matter and I am not addressing Jehovah doctrine.

I am addressing what you insinuate about Catholic doctrine however. We believe that Jesus sacrifice accomplished what Jesus set out to accomplish. Jesus died for our sins.

The difference is that you and Tom and other Protestants misconstrue that statement. You act as though since Jesus died for our sins, we no longer have to do anything about them.

But that is false. Jesus died for our sins to give us an example that we might follow in His footsteps. We must also die to our sins. We must also make reparation for our sins. That is justice. To believe otherwise is injustice.

Is man more just than God? Have you ever heard of it being said that a murderer could simply apologize for his sin and he would not have to serve time in prison or indeed not have to die for his crime?

I think if any such thing would happen, most people would cry foul. God is not less just. If you commit the crime, you do the time.

Sincerely,

De Maria

How did he pay for our sins yet we still have them at death?
I gave you several verses that say Jesus paid for our sins by his sacrifice and asked you how it means that they are not forgiven before we die and you never did explain that.
Your human reasoning on analyzing it according to a murderer meaning that we have to 'pay' after death does not prove your point whatsoever either. Your example of David's son dying does not prove that we have to pay after death either. His son DID die before his death so WHAT does that have to do to proving purgatory??

Tj
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

De Maria
This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when.

It does not say where or when so how can you read into it that it means after death.
We have explained that God cast sin away and forgives it once we confess and that it is no more remembered which would prove before death. I have yet to see how in the world you justify that it is after death. AGAIN to believe we have to be purged of our sin after death is crucifying Christ again and saying his death on the cross was insignificant.
I gave you several verses on that.

This conversation is really not to edifying, if we be brothers and sisters in the Lord, let's be to the building up of one another. If I be wrong, or you be wrong, let God be the judge.
Our works will be tested and burnt up if they are of no value. If you believe yourself to be saved, then rejoice, if you have a personal relationship to Jesus, then rejoice.
If you want to prove that you are somehow superior in your belief, then repent.
Whatever you have has been given to you by the grace of God, if you have worked out your own righteousness, then brag about it, may as well have your glory now, it won't do you much good in Heaven.
Let's get our focus back on the most important thing, Jesus and Him being formed in us.
We need to develop the nature of God, (Neh. 9:17 But You are a God of forgiveness, Gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness;)
We should be using this opportunity to urge each other on to love and good works, the putting down of our fleshly desires and appetites that so easily draw us away. We are led away by our own fleshly appetites then the enemy Takes advantage of this and tempts and draws us with our own feelings. When we follow these feelings, our mind and our will follow along like obedient slaves.
Let's wake up to ourselves, the time is short and while we squabble about this stuff, people are going to hell.
Let's make a difference for Jesus, disipline our fleshly desires and renew our minds daily.
That is, if we want to be disciples, we must be disciplined ones.
Gal.:5.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.


Galatians
No Other Gospel
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Paul's Concern for the Galatians
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!



Colossians 2
1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ
6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

1Timothy
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
Instructions to Timothy
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
20Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.
Grace be with you.

Posting of #239 Scripture alone?
Originally Posted by Tj3 The body of Christ of which Jesus alone is the head. I do not place any denomination above.and Originally Posted by DeMaria
Nor do I. But, since Jesus created the Church, I accept her authority:
__________________________________________

Number 24:19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

Note that Understanding that Jesus fore told us in scripture :

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Note understanding scripture:

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Note the understanding of scripture in Acts where authority felt they could do what Jesus did or what Paul was given through Jesus to do.. What shame was brought to those authority.

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Note the understanding in scripture in teaching others:

1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


Note understanding of scripture concerning the devil, and we need not fear the devil because Christ is with us, and holds all glory and dominion.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. 11 To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


"The Sabbath" ~Thou art Holy

De Maria,
You provided some interesting responses. Regarding my point that the fathers appear to be in agreement that the rich man went to hell in Christ's parable in Luke 16:24 (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus), rather than provide a quote by the fathers where they state that he is in purgatory you reply that you don't think that I have read all of the fathers. It seems that if you could have found a quote in which they state that he was in purgatory you would have posted it. But, since you couldn't, it appears that you attempted to create a diversion by your reply questioning how much of the fathers I have read. However, I can back up my position. Here are just a few of the fathers who agree with me:

St. John Chrysostom
For even if that rich man had endured none of the things I have mentioned, if he had passed his whole life without dread and care— why say I his whole life? Rather that one moment (for it is a moment, our whole life is but one moment, compared with that eternity which has no end)— if all things had turned out according to his desire; must he not be pitied for these words, yea, rather, for this state of things? Was not your table once deluged with wine? Now you are not master even of a drop of water, and that, too, in your greatest need. Did not you neglect that poor man full of sores? But now you ask a sight of him, and no one gives leave. He lay at your gate; but now in Abraham's bosom. You then lay under your lofty ceiling; but now in the fire of hell.
CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 2 on Philippians (Chrysostom) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230202.htm)

St.Gregory Nazianzus
For that rich man who would not give to the poor man even the scraps of his table, being in hell came to beg for even the least thing. For he sought for a drop of water, who refused to give a crumb of bread.
Catechetics Online (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea-Luke16.php)

Irenaeus
"(5) The rich man in hell(6) declared that he had five brothers, to whom he desired that one rising from the dead should go.
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES - BOOK II (http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/fathers/ante-nic/irenaeus/02-ag-he.htm)

Your quote by Pope Benedict does not unequivocally state that the rich man went to purgatory. However, the Pope John Paul directly states that he went to hell:

This is well explained in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in the Gospel of Luke (cf. 16:19-31). The rich man was condemned to hell, not for the evils he committed, the lies he told, the blasphemies and bad words he uttered, but for failing to do what he should have done.
EWTN - Document Library - www.ewtn.com (http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/JP2ANMTR.HTM)

Regarding your question as to where Luke 16:26 indicates the situation that the rich man finds himself is permanent:

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

I mentioned that I did not believe that the rich man died in God's grace and friendship – which is a requirement for a stay in purgatory. You replied that since Dives calls him “Father” it indicates that he died in a state of grace. This does not prove that he died in a state of grace. He recognized Abraham, but it appears from the text that he did not follow the example of Abraham. Even demons recognize saints (Acts 19:15).
(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"
Does this mean that the evil spirits are in a state of grace De Maria? It would according to your reasoning.

When discussing 1 Peter 3:19 I stated that the Greek word translated “spirits” in the New Testament unless modified indicates non-human spirit beings. The word “spirits” unless modified in some way never indicates deceased persons in the New Testament as far as I know. You wanted to see the verses that I mentioned quoted, so here they are:

Matthew 12:45:
Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Acts 23:8,9
(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.) There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

Luke 10:20:
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Ephesians 2:2
In which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Hebrews 1:14:
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

In none of the five verses just quoted above could the word spirit be interpreted as referring to a human being. As I mentioned above, the word “spirits” unless modified in some way never indicates deceased persons in the New Testament as far as I know. You seem to disagree. Fair enough. Can you find in the New Testament the word spirit (unmodified) where it clearly is being used to represent a deceased human?

Regarding 1 Peter 3:20, the reference is to the story of Noah that we find in Genesis 6. In verses 1-5 of that chapter we find that there were sons of God having intercourse with the daughters of men. The resulting offspring would be hybrid, not human. Secondly, you seem to think that the purpose of Christ's visit in 1 Peter 3:19 to the prison was to preach to his children who would soon be joining him in heaven. Since the text indicates that these spirits in the prison disobeyed during the days of Noah, that the thought of the hearts of the men were evil continually and that as a result he was sorry that he made man, I find it unlikely that they were in a state of grace. In fact, it says in 2 Peter 2:5 that God brought the flood on the world of the ungodly:

If he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

so verse 20 actually disproves your notion that verse 19 is a reference to purgatory unless you believe that those who were evil enough to cause God to destroy the earth with the flood were actually in his grace and friendship.

Those whose works burn in the account of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, where do they go exactly?

Rob

Those whose works burn in the account of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, where do they go exactly?

Rob
In 1 corinthians 3:10-15 they are the believers at judgment NOT purgatory.
Their good works are being tested NOT their iniquities/sins
The context is that while their works may be burned up yet they ARE saved.
If their works survive the fire they receive one of the crowns.
Crown of life (Rev. 2:10), a crown of righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8), and a crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4) etc...

Incorruptible crown

1 Cor. 9:25 1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

This crown is given for those who strive for mastery and is temperate in all things. Now here is a simple truth. Only those who strive will get this crown so therefore if you don't strive then you will not get this crown. Not everyone is going to get one.

The Bible teaches a reward system in heaven.

Crown of rejoicing

1 Thes. 2:19-20 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? For ye are our glory and joy.

This is often referred to as the Soul Winners Crown.

The verse says what is our crown of rejoicing? And then it answers the question with ye are. Who are the ye? They are the people that they won to the Lord. This is the Soul winners crown. So people who win souls get one and those who do not win souls don't get one.

The Bible teaches a reward system in heaven.

Crown of righteousness

II Tim. 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This crown goes to those who love his appearing. Now if you are sitting there with a bottle of the Devils brew in your hand when Jesus comes, you are not going to love His appearing.

If you are carrying a load of un-confessed sin, you are not going to love His appearing, because when He appears you are then going to the Judgment seat of Christ to give an answer.

That is not going to be any fun if you are living in sin.

And again some Christians are going to get a crown of righteousness and many Christians are not.

Crown of glory

1 Peter 5:2-4 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

This is often referred to as the Pastor's crown. This crown is for those who feed the flock and take oversight of it. And notice that they have to do it with the right motivation. They have to do it willingly and not for money.

There are many Pastors that are expecting to get this crown that won't. Instead of preaching the whole consul of God and exercising proper oversight over the flock. They tickle people's ears so that they can have more people so that they can have more power and more money.

Some Pastor's are going to get this crown and some will not.

Crown of life

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

This crown is often referred to as the Martyr's crown. This crown goes to those who are faithful unto death. This crown goes to those who are killed for their faith.

There are a total of 5 crowns that Christians will be rewarded with.

But that is not the only rewards in Heaven.

Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

We are commanded to lay up treasures in Heaven.

That tells me several things.

One there must be treasures for us to lay up in Heaven.

We would not be commanded to do it if it was not possible.

And if we have to lay them up, then some people are going to get them and some will not.

Two is says treasures. Plural. So there are many treasures that we can lay up in Heaven.

Three it should be obvious that some are going to lay up more treasures than others.

The Bible teaches a reward system in Heaven.

2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

This verse is talking about rewards and not salvation. You cannot loose your salvation. But this verse teaches that you can lose your rewards.

It says to look to yourselves so that you don't lose the things that you have wrought. So that you can receive a full reward.

If you are not careful you can have a full reward laid up and then get careless during the last years of your life and lose those things which you have wrought.

And when Jesus comes you will not get what you would have had coming.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

It is our works that lays up treasures in Heaven.

Heb 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

You do a good work with the right heart and God will not forget your work and labor of love.

1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

What ever work that you do for the Lord is not in vain. God takes notice and God will reward you for it.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Our works are going to be tried by the fiery judgment of God. If our works are wood hay and stubble then they will be burnt up. It will be like we never did them.

However, if our works abide. If they survive the test of God's fiery judgment, then we will receive a reward.

The Bible clearly teaches a reward system in Heaven.

Again this is NOT a fire to purge sin/iniquity Jesus took care of that on the cross.

I would still like an answer to if God can elaborate on the judgments, the crowns, the first and second resurrection of believers why isn't the Bible clear on Purgatory?

Tj
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

De Maria.
This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when.

It does not say where or when so how can you read into it that it means after death.

Read the message again. Tom says this disproves Purgatory. But it doesn't. It substantiates Purgatory because in Purgatory God cleanses us.


We have explained that God cast sin away and forgives it once we confess and that it is no more remembered which would prove before death. I have yet to see how in the world you justify that it is after death. AGAIN to believe we have to be purged of our sin after death is crucifying Christ again and saying his death on the cross was insignificant.
I gave you several verses on that.

The Scriptures tell me it is after death. You admit that our works are tested by fire after death. This is in 1 Cor 3:15. You admit that works of iniquity are sins. Now, if works are tested after death, where are they? Aren't they in our soul? And if the works of straw are burned away, doesn't that mean our soul is purified. And if works of iniquity are sin and these are burned away, then YOU have admitted Purgatory. You just don't want to call it Purgatory because it is a Catholic doctrine. God forbid you should believe anything Catholic, right?

Sincerely,

De Maria

No I would have the opinion that that today, there are thousands who still do not find Christ as their Savior. And of course we have murderers and ect.. Thus there is still the need for the the gulf.

Why would there be a gulf for murders etc... when they go straight to hell if they have not repented?

Posting of #239 Scripture alone?
Originally Posted by Tj3 The body of Christ of which Jesus alone is the head. I do not place any denomination above.and Originally Posted by DeMaria
Nor do I. But, since Jesus created the Church, I accept her authority:
__________________________________________

Number 24:19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

Note that Understanding that Jesus fore told us in scripture :

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Note understanding scripture:

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Note the understanding of scripture in Acts where authority felt they could do what Jesus did or what Paul was given through Jesus to do.. What shame was brought to those authority.

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Note the understanding in scripture in teaching others:

1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


Note understanding of scripture concerning the devil, and we need not fear the devil because Christ is with us, and holds all glory and dominion.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. 11 To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


"The Sabbath" ~Thou art Holy

Authority is not synonymous with coercion:

Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Obedience is voluntary and salutary for the one in authority and the one under the authority.

Are you somehow claiming that Jesus Christ did not give the Church His authority?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus cleansed us at the cross you still have not proven that we need cleansed after death

Rom 8:1-11
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 1:3
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 7:27-28
Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

I don't see where there is room for purgatory in any of these verses

From everything I read I just can't see it. To me
Purgatory is saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is not good enough to satisfy the demands and payment for sin. Purgatory must satisfy part of the payment for sins through suffering after death. That is a works salvation, which makes it a totally false salvation.

Catholic purgatory crucifies Jesus afresh by claiming that Jesus' death was not sufficient to cleanse sin. It is the equivalent of good works that God condemned in Matt 7

You have not only rejected the grace of God, you have shamefully crucified Christ among you." Paul employs the same phraseology in Hebrews 6:6: "Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

It should make any person afraid to hear Paul say that those who seek to be justified by the Law, not only deny Christ, but also crucify Him anew. If those who seek to be justified by the Law and its works are crucifiers of Christ, what are they, I like to know, who seek salvation by the filthy rags of their own work-righteousness?

Of all the diseased and vicious doctrines of the papacy the worst is this: "If you want to serve God you must earn your own remission of sins and everlasting life, and in addition help others to obtain salvation by giving them the benefit of your extra work-holiness." Monks, friars, and all the rest of them brag that besides the ordinary requirements common to all Christians, they do the works of supererogation, i.e., the performance of more than is required. This is certainly a fiendish illusion.

No wonder Paul employs such sharp language in his effort to recall the Galatians from the doctrine of the false apostles. He says to them: "Don't you realize what you have done? You have crucified Christ anew because you seek salvation by the Law."

True, Christ can no longer be crucified in person, but He is crucified in us when we reject grace, faith, free remission of sins and endeavor to be justified by our own works, or by the works of the Law.

The Apostle is incensed at the presumptuousness of any person who thinks he can perform the Law of God to his own salvation. He charges that person with the atrocity of crucifying anew the Son of God.

Can you deny that God does not cleanse our sins the minute we ask him to forgive us? As the Bible DOES teach!

I STILL want to know why if God can elaborate on the Judgments, the crowns, the seals and the trumpets why would he neglect mentioning going to purgatory to cleanse any undealt with sin?

Tj
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

De Maria.
This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when.

N0help4u.
It does not say where or when so how can you read into it that it means after death.

De Maria.
Read the message again. Tom says this disproves Purgatory. But it doesn't. It substantiates Purgatory because in Purgatory God cleanses us.


NO it does not substantiate purgatory. Tom IS right and I have explained why over and over here.

De Maria, the "works" that are burned up, are our works of righteousness, not our sins.
In 1 Cor 3 it is talking about building the temple of God on the foundation of Jesus. This is where my works, and your works, as a matter of fact, the very words that you confess right now, will be judged as being true or not, as will mine. I have no fear of this, only hope that in some small way, my words may shine a little light on this scripture and that perhaps they will survive the "Consuming fire of God" For our God is a consuming fire.
Even as the sacrifices were consumed by God in the Old testament, so will ours be tested and the acceptable will remain.
I'm going to bed, it's 10 past midnight here!
:)

De Maria,
You provided some interesting responses. Regarding my point that the fathers appear to be in agreement that the rich man went to hell in Christ's parable in Luke 16:24 (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus), rather than provide a quote by the fathers where they state that he is in purgatory you reply that you don't think that I have read all of the fathers. It seems that if you could have found a quote in which they state that he was in purgatory you would have posted it. But, since you couldn't, it appears that you attempted to create a diversion by your reply questioning how much of the fathers I have read. However, I can back up my position. Here are just a few of the fathers who agree with me:

St. John Chrysostom
For even if that rich man had endured none of the things I have mentioned, if he had passed his whole life without dread and care— why say I his whole life? Rather that one moment (for it is a moment, our whole life is but one moment, compared with that eternity which has no end)— if all things had turned out according to his desire; must he not be pitied for these words, yea, rather, for this state of things? Was not your table once deluged with wine? Now you are not master even of a drop of water, and that, too, in your greatest need. Did not you neglect that poor man full of sores? But now you ask a sight of him, and no one gives leave. He lay at your gate; but now in Abraham's bosom. You then lay under your lofty ceiling; but now in the fire of hell.
CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 2 on Philippians (Chrysostom) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230202.htm)

St.Gregory Nazianzus
For that rich man who would not give to the poor man even the scraps of his table, being in hell came to beg for even the least thing. For he sought for a drop of water, who refused to give a crumb of bread.
Catechetics Online (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea-Luke16.php)

Irenaeus
"(5) The rich man in hell(6) declared that he had five brothers, to whom he desired that one rising from the dead should go.
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES - BOOK II (http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/fathers/ante-nic/irenaeus/02-ag-he.htm)

Please study the meaning of the word "hell" to the early Christians. We have an ancient prayer, the Creed, which basically explains what hell means and meant to them:

We believe in One God... We believe in One Lord Jesus Christ... He descended into Hell on the third day He rose again...

Did Jesus descend to the Hell of the damned? No, Scripture is clear that He did not. He descended to the Spirits in Prison.

So unless you can tie the Fathers quotations to eternal perdition, then I believe they are speaking about hell as in hades, the abode of the dead, purgatory. In addition, the word Purgatory was unknown to them. They could not have used that terminology in place of "hell".


Your quote by Pope Benedict does not unequivocally state that the rich man went to purgatory. However, the Pope John Paul directly states that he went to hell:

This is well explained in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in the Gospel of Luke (cf. 16:19-31). The rich man was condemned to hell, not for the evils he committed, the lies he told, the blasphemies and bad words he uttered, but for failing to do what he should have done.
EWTN - Document Library - www.ewtn.com (http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/JP2ANMTR.HTM)

Did Pope John Paul II write this? Please read the heading:
JOHN PAUL II'S ANNIVERSARY AND MOTHER TERESA'S BEATIFICATION
Fr Sebastian Vazhakala, M.C.

I doubt if Pope John Paul II would have said anything like this since he and his Cardinal and Prefect of Doctrine were very close.


Regarding your question as to where Luke 16:26 indicates the situation that the rich man finds himself is permanent:

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.


Does that say the chasm is fixed permanently? Where?


I mentioned that I did not believe that the rich man died in God's grace and friendship – which is a requirement for a stay in purgatory. You replied that since Dives calls him “Father” it indicates that he died in a state of grace. This does not prove that he died in a state of grace. He recognized Abraham, but it appears from the text that he did not follow the example of Abraham. Even demons recognize saints (Acts 19:15).
(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"
Does this mean that the evil spirits are in a state of grace De Maria? It would according to your reasoning.

Does the demon in your example call Jesus Lord or Paul Father. Yet the Rich Man, Dives,
Calls Abraham Father.

Let me ask you, is there any love in the Hell of the Damned?


When discussing 1 Peter 3:19 I stated that the Greek word translated “spirits” in the New Testament unless modified indicates non-human spirit beings. The word “spirits” unless modified in some way never indicates deceased persons in the New Testament as far as I know. You wanted to see the verses that I mentioned quoted, so here they are:

Matthew 12:45:
Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Acts 23:8,9
(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.) There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

Luke 10:20:
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Ephesians 2:2
In which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Hebrews 1:14:
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

In none of the five verses just quoted above could the word spirit be interpreted as referring to a human being. As I mentioned above, the word “spirits” unless modified in some way never indicates deceased persons in the New Testament as far as I know. You seem to disagree. Fair enough. Can you find in the New Testament the word spirit (unmodified) where it clearly is being used to represent a deceased human?

Regarding 1 Peter 3:20, the reference is to the story of Noah that we find in Genesis 6. In verses 1-5 of that chapter we find that there were sons of God having intercourse with the daughters of men. The resulting offspring would be hybrid, not human. Secondly, you seem to think that the purpose of Christ's visit in 1 Peter 3:19 to the prison was to preach to his children who would soon be joining him in heaven. Since the text indicates that these spirits in the prison disobeyed during the days of Noah, that the thought of the hearts of the men were evil continually and that as a result he was sorry that he made man, I find it unlikely that they were in a state of grace. In fact, it says in 2 Peter 2:5 that God brought the flood on the world of the ungodly:

If he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

so verse 20 actually disproves your notion that verse 19 is a reference to purgatory unless you believe that those who were evil enough to cause God to destroy the earth with the flood were actually in his grace and friendship.




Rob, you are reading a great deal into Scripture.

As to whether spirits must be modified to determine what it means, you are right. In essence, you are saying that the Scripture must be read in context.

But 1 Peter 3:19 is modified. It is modified by 1 Peter 3:20.

Let us look at them together:

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Which had been some time incredulous...

These are spirits WHICH HAD BEEN SOME TIME INCREDULOUS...

I don't know what else I can add. You certainly did a great job in reading into Scripture what you wanted to prove from Scripture. But that is called esegesis. Not exegesis.


Those whose works burn in the account of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, where do they go exactly?

Rob

To heaven.

Oh and its nice to meet someone who is more verbose than I. ;)

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria, the "works" that are burned up, are our works of righteousness, not our sins.

Why would our works of righteousness be burned?


In 1 Cor 3 it is talking about building the temple of God on the foundation of Jesus. This is where my works, and your works, as a matter of fact, the very words that you confess right now, will be judged as being true or not, as will mine. I have no fear of this, only hope that in some small way, my words may shine a little light on this scripture and that perhaps they will survive the "Consuming fire of God" For our God is a consuming fire.
Even as the sacrifices were consumed by God in the Old testament, so will ours be tested and the acceptable will remain.
I'm going to bed, it's 10 past midnight here!
:)

Amen!! And I know the feeling. I was up until 2am last night.

Anyway, I can see we are close in understanding. I'd like to ask you this for future discussion.

If our works of "righteousness" are burned as you claim. Although I believe they are the works of gold and precious stones which do not burn. Whereas the works of perishable material are our sins. But if we continue with your idea that it is works of righteousness, where are these works? I mean, where do we store them? Is it in our souls?

And if these works of righteousness are burned in our souls, does that not describe a purification?

Good night!

Sincerely,

De Maria

Why would the works of the righteous be burned up?
I have explained that to you at least three times so far here
And that any of the works that do not get burned up receive a crown.

I think it would do you a lot of good to set aside things the Church taught you and read the Bible by doing topics studies
With an open mind and heart not trying to fit Catholic doctrine into it.

I have explained everything here repeatedly and repeated the majority of it on
The previous page 12 -- #'s 111, 115, 117, 119 & 120

David had also been set free from sin, yet he had to pay for it:
The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.


Where does this say that he paid for forgiveness for his own sin? You keep saying it, but it is not there.


True. Purgatory is God purging us of sin. End of story.


True. Neither faith nor works can merit salvation.

God did, we don't. Scripture says that Jesus did the purging, not us, and nothing we can do (including penance of any sort) can merit any portion of our payment for sin.

It sounds like you8 are conceding.


And yet, if we do not have faith and do not work, we will not be saved.

Start a new thread on faith and works if you wish - but note that your mis-understanding here appears to be due to a lack of understanding of the Greek words.

why would the works of the righteous be burned up?

That isn't what Peter Wilson said is it? Nor what I asked.

Since you didn't quote him but rewrote his statement, I have to assume that you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Here is what Peter Wilson actually said and what I asked:

Message #123:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
De Maria, the "works" that are burned up, are our works of righteousness, not our sins.

Why would our works of righteousness be burned?


I have explained that to you at least three times so far here
And that any of the works that do not get burned up receive a crown.

So, this response of yours does not address the question. The question is, why are works of righteousness burned up? That is the statement which Peter Wilson made which I questioned.


I think it would do you a lot of good to set aside things the Church taught you and read the Bible by doing topics studies
With an open mind and heart not trying to fit Catholic doctrine into it.

I have explained everything here repeatedly and repeated the majority of it on
The previous page 12 -- #'s 111, 115, 117, 119 & 120

On the contrary, I have traced the various Churches back to their origins. Only the Catholic Church goes back to Jesus Christ. Your tradition and all Sola Scriptura traditions trace back to Luther.

Therefore, since Jesus Christ only established one Church, that Church is the Catholic Church and Scripture tells me to obey that Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Where does this say that he paid for forgiveness for his own sin?

That question makes little sense. Neither I nor the Scriptures say that he paid for forgiveness.

However both the Scripture and I say that his repentance for his sin was insufficient. Even though God took away the sin, David still had to pay for the consequences of his sin. He paid for it by the death of his son. Note that David had to do nothing in order to make this satisfaction. God took the son in payment for the temporal effects of David's sin.

The Lord also hath taken away thy sin:

The Lord forgave David.

thou shalt not die.

Therefore, David would not suffer the ultimate penalty.

14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme,

But, because David's sin had temporal consequences

for this thing,

Because of these temporal consequences

the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

David's son born of Bathsheba must die.


You keep saying it, but it is not there.

Keep reading, you'll find it.


God did, we don't. Scripture says that Jesus did the purging, not us,

That is true. God does the purging in Purgatory.


and nothing we can do (including penance of any sort) can merit any portion of our payment for sin.

That is also true. But, none the less, if we don't do penance for our sin, we will not be justified.

The formula is very simple. Neither our faith, nor our works are sufficient to pay for our sins. However, if we do not have faith, we will not be justified. If we do not work we will not be justified.

James 2 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?


It sounds like you8 are conceding.

No. Not by a long shot.


Start a new thread on faith and works if you wish - but note that your mis-understanding here appears to be due to a lack of understanding of the Greek words.

Why don't I start a thread on faith alone? Lets see where it is in Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Only the Catholic Church goes back to Jesus Christ.

I proved that it goes back to Constantine in 325AD.


Therefore, since Jesus Christ only established one Church, that Church is the Catholic Church and Scripture tells me to obey that Church.

Scripture says obey God.

Acts 5:29-30
29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
NKJV

You are even disobeying the man who you wrongfully claim as your first pope!

I proved that it goes back to Constantine in 325AD.

No you didn't. You provided a document by Cardinal John Newman in which he stated that St. Constantine "promoted" the new religion.

Apparently, in your zeal against the Catholic Church, you twisted those words to your agenda and said that it means that St. Constantine created the Catholic Church.

However, if you studied history, you would know that St. Constantine, the emperor of Rome, put an end to the old Roman religion called "emperor worship". And he promoted the new religion of Christ known as the Catholic Church.


Scripture says obey God.

Acts 5:29-30
29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
NKJV

And Scripture says that we obey God by obeying the Church:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Sincerely,

De Maria

No you didn't. You provided a document by Cardinal John Newman in which he stated that St. Constantine "promoted" the new religion.


Partly right - it does say that he promoted the new religion, and it also tells about how he created the new religion through bringing in doctrines and practices from the old pagan Roman religion.

We are told in various ways by Eusebius that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and those dedicated to the particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water, asylums, holy days and seasons, use of calendars, proces­sions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church.
(Source: An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine)

Note a few things from history:

1) These could only have been brought into the church from the pagan religion by Constantine after Constantine ended persecution of the church - early ion the 4th century.
2) Shortly after the end of the persecution, Constantine called a church council (Note: The Roman Church claims that only a pope can do this!- the man that the Roman Church claims to have been pope at the time did not call nor attend this council).
3) When these pagan doctrines were brought into the church, the religion itself changed. Some of the items are more benign, but others are clearly non-Christian.
4) Following this change to create the "new religion", the leader of the religion was given the title of one of the two founding religions, the pagan Roman religion. That title is "Pontiff".


However, if you studied history, you would know that St. Constantine, the emperor of Rome, put an end to the old Roman religion called "emperor worship". And he promoted the new religion of Christ known as the Catholic Church.

I have indeed studied the history of the church very much - I would recommend that study highly to you. The book Constantine's Sword" (written by a Roman catholic) might be a good starter for you.


And Scripture says that we obey God by obeying the Church:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.


I see this referring to discipline, not obedience, especially not if the church teaches false doctrine. Further, I see nothing here telling me that we are told to obey a denomination.

Scripture says obey God.

Acts 5:29-30
29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
NKJV

Are you somehow claiming that Jesus Christ did not give the Church His authority?

Sincerely,

De Maria

What did you read?

What have you understood in what was there?

Scripture was posted in #113 And I asked that those reading note the understanding..

Perhaps you are in question of your own thoughts?

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Who is the servant to all in this scripture?

What did you read?

What have you understood in what was there?

Scripture was posted in #113 And I asked that those reading note the understanding..

Perhaps you are in question of your own thoughts?

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Who is the servant to all in this scripture?

There were many verses in your message (quoted below) about Jesus' authority and about the nature of dominion and authority. None of which mention the authority of the Church. This is a common Protestant claim so, I was wondering if you also were claiming that Jesus did not give the Church His authority?



Number 24:19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

Note that Understanding that Jesus fore told us in scripture :

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Note understanding scripture:

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? But I am among you as he that serveth.28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Note the understanding of scripture in Acts where authority felt they could do what Jesus did or what Paul was given through Jesus to do.. What shame was brought to those authority.

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Note the understanding in scripture in teaching others:

1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


Note understanding of scripture concerning the devil, and we need not fear the devil because Christ is with us, and holds all glory and dominion.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. 11 To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


"The Sabbath" ~Thou art Holy


Sincerely,

De Maria

This is a common Protestant claim so, I was wondering if you also were claiming that Jesus did not give the Church His authority?

Since you earlier told us that when you use the term "The Church" you mean specifically your denomination, then my answer to your question would be no, Jesus did not give your denomination His authority.

There were many verses in your message (quoted below) about Jesus' authority and about the nature of dominion and authority. None of which mention the authority of the Church. This is a common Protestant claim so, I was wondering if you also were claiming that Jesus did not give the Church His authority?



Sincerely,

De Maria

My opinion is a free will choice in faith to follow Christ Jesus. And Christ did all that the Father asked of Him. I ask you who is the authority, power and strength, and who is the servant? "Christ told you who!"

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jeremiah 32:17-18 Ah Lord GOD! Behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, [and] there is nothing too hard for thee: Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, [is] his name,
Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

John 5:23-24 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Note: There are seven churches according to scripture. (All seven are serants of God.) The Catholic church is one of the seven.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Suggestion: humble thyself, always rebuking the pride of satan, and serve in the love of God above all things.

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

My opinion is a free will choice in faith to follow Christ Jesus. And Christ did all that the Father asked of Him. I ask you who is the authority, power and strength, and who is the servant? "Christ told you who!"

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jeremiah 32:17-18 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, [and] there is nothing too hard for thee: Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, [is] his name,
Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

John 5:23-24 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Note: There are seven churches according to scripture. (All seven are serants of God.) The Catholic church is one of the seven.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Suggestion: humble thyself, always rebuking the pride of satan, and serve in the love of God above all things.

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

And I agree that Christ is the authority and the Church is the servant.

Now, I ask you, did Christ give His authority to His Servant, the Church, to teach:
Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations;

To baptize
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

To forgive sin:
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

To guide our souls:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

To teach us the Word of God:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Or did Jesus establish a Church with no power? A Church which we can ignore and instead lean upon our own understanding of what the Scriptures say, of what Jesus said?
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria, sorry you got blamed for my post. :)
What I meant was that our works will be tested by fire, that is, as we build on the foundation of Jesus, His church. If what we build with is from our own ideas or making, like a cult might do, then it will be tested. If our works are righteous, and in keeping with what has already been laid and not add to it a different Gospel than was preached in the beginning, then it will stand and we will receive our reward. Our righteous acts will not be burned up, I didn't mean for it to sound like that, just the acts of righteousness that come from the wrong motives.
If from spiritual pride, whoosh, up it goes, if for the praise of men, whoosh, if for personal gain, whoosh, if for any other reason than to obey the Holy Spirit, (you do have the Holy Spirit don't you?) then it will be accounted as loss.
If you are not Born again, you can't either see nor enter the Kingdom of God.
When did you get Born again, what was your experience. Were you "buried" in baptism, or just sprinkled. If so, did you believe before you were baptized, do you have the signs following that Jesus said would follow them that believe?
To be honest, the way you interpret scripture is as far out as the Jehova's Witnesses.
You seem to believe whatever you have been taught by man.
Why don't you pray this prayer, I did, "Dear Father God, if I am in error and if I am in the wrong place, then tell me. For if you don't tell me, then when I stand before you, on that day, I will say, "It is your fault, I asked you to tell me and you didn't"".
Theres one thing I know about God, He wants us to be real, not religous.
He loves it when we come and reason with Him.
Isaiah 1
18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red as crimson,
They shall be like wool.
I don't mean that we should be dis-respectful, just real.
God wants to work in your life beyond the limits you set, by His grace, I have had many miracles happen to me and my family, from healings to supernatural provision to visions and dreams, to even hearing the audible voice of God on at least two occasions, to seeing angels and demons and even meeting Jesus, face to face in a vision. (Though I couldn't actually see His face, it was shining like the sun.) I have seen Heaven open and God on the throne, with Jesus at His right hand,(He was standing), there was a number of elders standing and sitting on the ground around the throne,and all the Angels of heaven around them, though back at a distance. Gold dust was floating down over all the worshippers at that time, it was awesome.
Please understand that I don't say that to make myself sound more "spiritual" than you or anybody else, if I have received anything, then it is the gift of God, certainly not my righteousness, I battle the desires and appetites of the flesh as do we all.
I just say these things to let you know that God is not just a belief system, He is real and active today, look at what is happening in Florida and other parts of the world.
In our Church ( Dayspring Church Australia) we have had some very significant healings lately, one man was healed from Parkinsons disease, another woman was in a coma on her deathbed with cancer, she was prayed for and completely healed.
These are the works that are righteous, let these be tested in the fire, this is what you have called for at this time. If you ignore the call then l trust in your own righteousness.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm judging you, I'm not, I don't even know you, I'm just trying to spur you on to do good works, after all, wasn't that your first love, don't you remember why you chose to follow the priesthood, to get close to God.
Rev. 3
2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

Oops, spelling error!If you ignore the call then l trust in your own righteousness.Just for the record, I DON"T trust in your own righteousness, I don't even trust in mine! :)

And I agree that Christ is the authority and the Church is the servant.

Now, I ask you, did Christ give His authority to His Servant, the Church, to teach:
Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations;

to baptize
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

to forgive sin:
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

to guide our souls:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

to teach us the Word of God:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Or did Jesus establish a Church with no power? A Church which we can ignore and instead lean upon our own understanding of what the Scriptures say, of what Jesus said?
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Matthew 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Matthew 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

Matthew21:27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

__________________________________________________


DeMaria, if you can understand this man of authority in the following verses and what was in his heart. You will find your answer.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
_____________________________________________

So I ask you DeMaria, by who's authority is what done?

Matthew 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Matthew 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

Matthew21:27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
__________________________________________________

DeMaria, if you can understand this man of authority in the following verses and what was in his heart. You will find your answer.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
_____________________________________________

So I ask you DeMaria, by who's authority is what done?

I'm not following how this proves or disproves purgatory??

De Maria,

Yes, I can get wordy. I tried to keep things clear by underlining any questions that I had.

Early on in this thread I pointed out the fact that despite your claim about the rich man in Luke 16:24 being in Purgatory, none of the Fathers share your view. In your most recent post you indicated that they could not have used the term "purgatory" in their writings about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because that word was not known to them, so they used the term "hell." Very well, if that's true, then some quotes by the fathers in which they describe the rich man as being in "hell temporarily" will suffice. Can you produce such quotes?

Now, regarding the chasm in Luke 16:26. I mentioned that it seemed to indicate that the rich man's fate was sealed. You replied, "Does that say the chasm is fixed permanently? Where?"

I'll freely admit that the text does not say that directly. But, turnabout is fair play. Can you show me where it says that the chasm isn't fixed permanently? Where?

You also asked me if there was any love in the hell of the damned. I'll freely admit that there probably is not. However, this is a parable. Jesus is telling this story to get his point across. He may, or may not be telling the story about an actual historical event. He may or may not change some details to get his point across. Now, you may say that the rich man can't be in hell because there is no love there. However, consider the following details from the story:

The Pharisees had a love of money. It appears that Jesus told this story about them in their presence. Part of God's will is that we help the poor. Will disregarding that will mean still being in God's grace and friendship? The rich man apparently was excessive and extravagant. He showed no concern for Lazarus despite the fact that it was clearly within the rich man's ability to help Lazarus. What does God say about that De Maria?

1 John 5:17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?

Matthew 25:21-46 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Does the rich man call Abraham "father?" Yes he does, but isn't it presumptious for him to do that when he ignored the example of Abraham? By his calling Abraham "father" despite not living with love for his neighbor, and his request for Abraham to send Lazarus on his own personal task, it seems that he is continuing in his disregard for others even after death. Rather than an apology to Lazarus, we see here a request for a special favor in the way of a visitor from the afterlife to warn his kin. The rich man still seems to think that he is in charge! Tell me De Maria, is disregard for God's will, disregard for the poor, consistent with being in God's grace and friendship?

I did not say, "spirits must be modified to determine what it means." I did say that the word translated "spirits" unless modified represents non-human spirit beings. (I'm not sure how you mixed that up, maybe you are skimming instead of reading?) Since you seem to disagree De Maria, with my contention that 1 Peter 3:19 is not talking about humans, can you provide a verse in the New Testament where the word "spirits" not modified by an adjective or other word in the same sentence clearly indicates a deceased person? As you saw in the five verses that I provided (Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14) there is no way one could misinterpret those verses as speaking about humans.

Are you attempting to claim that Noah's contemporaries that died in the flood really were in God's grace and friendship by posting a translation that reads, "Which had been some time incredulous…."?

Where exactly did you see me practicing , as you call it, "esegesis?"

Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, De Maria, if those whose works don't burn end up with the same thing as those whose works burn, how is that a reward?

Rob

to teach us the Word of God:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

De Maria

You left out the important part...

Hebrews 13:7-8 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Note also it continues: Hebrew 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein




I'm not following how this proves or disproves purgatory???De Maria

Nor do I, they were your questions...

As for purgatory? it is not in scripture. And why is scripture writtten? John 20:13 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

We have been foretold all things.. Including all about false teaching.

2 Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works

There is much to read concerning false teaching.. All in the Bible from The Word of God

Deu 32:31 For their rock [is] not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves judges.
[B]Deu 32:32 For their vine [is] of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes [are] grapes of gall, their clusters [are] bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine [is] the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Deu32:34 [Is] not this laid up in store with me, [and] sealed up among my treasures?
Deu 32:35 To me vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
[B]Deu 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left.
Deu 32:37 And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted,
Deu 32:38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, [and] drank the wine of their drink offerings? Let them rise up and help you, [and] be your protection.

You left out the important part...

Hebrews 13:7-8 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Note also it continues: Hebrew 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein




Nor do I, they were your questions...

As for purgatory? it is not in scripture. And why is scripture writtten? John 20:13 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

We have been foretold all things.. Including all about false teaching.

.........

Fascinating!

And, as we have seen, to defend his views on purgatory De Maria has had to claim:

A)Those who have it well within their power to help the poor, but don't are in God's grace and friendship.

B)God destroyed the earth with a flood to kill off those who where actually in God's grace and friendship - not the wicked as is commonly believed.

C)Those who get a reward for their works that don't burn in the final judgment and those who don't actually get the same thing!

Rob

A) They are still in God's grace BUT the Bible says while the works they did do may be burned up they will be saved.

B.) Never really thought about that one would like to see what De Maria uses to back it up

C.) They get the same thing --Salvation BUT the ones whose works survive also get one of the five crowns I posted on previous pages.

A) They are still in God's grace BUT the Bible says while the works they did do may be burned up they will be saved.

B.) Never really thought about that one would like to see what De Maria uses to back it up

C.) They get the same thing --Salvation BUT the ones whose works survive also get one of the five crowns I posted on previous pages.



A) He's claiming that the rich man went to purgatory (hence in God's grace and friendship), which means he'll go to heaven eventually. I don't see how you can get that from reading the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

B) I never thought I would see someone take that position! :D

C) Yes, the test of the works determines who gets a reward in heaven.

It's been a fun thread! Thanks for the help!

Rob

A.) yep me either. I really wonder where De Marie figures the rich man was in a place to make it to heaven rather than that he was in hell because it is very clear to see he is not in some holding place to eventually make it to heaven.
B.) I would love to see the reasoning.
C.) yep the crowns through the judgment of the righteous no sin/purgatory about it.

Maybe De Marie can start a new post proving Lazarus in purgatory rather than hell

The Word of God was spoken.. Praise God, for none other rules over His Kingdom..

Judgement remains in the hands of Jesus, so to judge what happens to those on one side of the gulf to the other, remains known to Christ on judgement day. Better for us to follow Christ' then to know of judgement.

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Why:
Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

Note:
Hebrews 10: 16- 17 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God;Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Let no man tells you differently from this scripture. Christ is worthy of all. Chirst is the high priest, appointed by God. We as His children must stand firm in love for Our Father, Son and Holy Spirit with all praise and glory forever...

Again How does that prove or disprove purgatory? Other than the Heb 10:19

Again How does that prove or disprove purgatory? Other than the Heb 10:19

In recognizing what is taught and what is intended by the Catholic church in their belief of purgatory.

But they take it to mean that they are the one that has it right on how they interpret so just quoting verses isn't going to change their mind since they see it in ''their'' context. Just like I can not get it across to De Marie that there is traditions of man and traditions of God using the verses.

Exactly!

It's tradition as interpreted and defined by Rome, and the scriptures as interpreted by Rome. Essentially, it's a one legged - three legged stool! In the end it's Sola-Roma. :rolleyes:

Rob

But they take it to mean that they are the one that has it right on how they interpret so just quoting verses isn't going to change their mind since they see it in ''their'' context. Just like I can not get it across to De Marie that there is traditions of man and traditions of God using the verses.

Nohelp4u, okay and I understand your intention to help. It is a pure heart of love. But just as you have made your choices in life, they too made their own. It is an important part of our existence here on earth. God didn't make us all like zombins that walk the earth and say God I love thee.. We have the choice... God created us for His pleasure, and loves each of us. And he gifted each of us.

Note: 1 Corinthains 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Reading all of the verses of 1 Corinthians 12 can further example what God's Will intends.

A pure heart in prayer, that would ask that God's Will be done, is humble and shows love. So if it is God's Will, that they will see, they will indeed see.


Everyday satan attempts to deceive. And there are many that can be deceived with twistings of scripture.

2 Corinthians 2 :10-11 To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ; 11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?
Thanks for the question rob.

In case I missed it earlier in the thread, here is the OFFICIAL definition of what an induldgence is:

An indulgence is the remission before God of temporal punishment for sins whose guilt is already forgiven, which a properly disposed member of the Christian faithful gains under certain and defined conditions by the assistance of the Church which as minister of redemption dispenses and applies authoritatively the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.
From the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law (Can. 992)

You can see a limited preview of the Manual on Indulgences here. (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=IMEof2fFCHMC&dq=Manual+of+Indulgences&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=t5tUwBfAQS&sig=6yN3yYu9IvsPb1SnqN20F6IZ27E&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA3,M1)

"(S)cripture clearly does support the practice of indulgences, and that the doctrine has roots both in Tradition and Scripture. This begs the question of who actually possesses authority in the Church, and the ability to properly interpret the Bible. This ultimately is the matter which crystallized the Reformers in separation from the historic Church of Christ, serving to show, in miniature, the effects of the Protestent Revolt by the study of this one doctrine....

...From the power of the keys and the sacrament of Penance did the Church receive from her bridegroom the authority to remit punishments, both temporal and eternal. As Cardinal Fisher noted, "Faith, whether in Purgatory or in Indulgences, was not so necessary in the Primitive Church as now. For then love so burned, that every one was ready to meet death for Christ. Crimes were rare, and such as occurred were avenged by the great severity of the Canons." In her solicitude to keep all her children from hell, the Church relented upon the canonical penances, which kept some souls from the sacraments. Thus, she recognized her ability to apply the merits of Jesus and the saints to fill in and remit punishments. The works permitted were abused, and this was regrettable. But Indulgences stand today as a part of the deposit of the faith, and a valuable avenue for all Christians who avail themselves of them. Truly, by practice of indulgences and a study of their developments, one can draw closer to Our Savior, and see His hand working in love for our union with Him."
-by Paul S. Czarnota
catholic.net

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the question rob.

"(S)cripture clearly does support the practice of indulgences, and that the doctrine has roots both in Tradition and Scripture. This begs the question of who actually possesses authority in the Church, and the ability to properly interpret the Bible. This ultimately is the matter which crystallized the Reformers in separation from the historic Church of Christ, serving to show, in miniature, the effects of the Protestent Revolt by the study of this one doctrine...


There is not only nothing in scripture supporting such a practice, but indeed it is a completely unnecessary practice since you are either on to way to hell not having received Christ as Saviour, or if you have received Christ as Saviour, then he has paid the price for ALL of your sins (1 John 1:9 and others). The Roman Church is therefore claiming power and authority that is does not have.


... From the power of the keys and the sacrament of Penance did the Church receive from her bridegroom the authority to remit punishments, both temporal and eternal.

Jesus retained those keys as shown by the fact that He still has them in the Book of Revelation.

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

There is not only nothing in scripture supporting such a practice....
That's a matter of opinon...

... and I'm not sure why you feel that you have the right to interpret scripture for me or anyone else?

That's a matter of opinon...

....and I'm not sure why you feel that you have the right to interpret scripture for me or anyone else?

No it isn't. Either it is in scripture or it is not.

You clearly have not been reading my posts. Neither you nor I nor the pope nor any man has the right to interpret scripture PERIOD!

2 Peter 1:20
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
NKJV

This is the problem. People think that they, or their church or whoever has the right to interpret scripture. They don't. We are to allow scripture to speak for itself and interpret itself, and our role is to submit ourselves to what the word of God says.

Either it is in scripture or it is not.
Some groups have been arguing that the Trinity is not scripture for about 2,000 years... I would have to say that your reasoning does not work well in the real world.

People think that they, or their church or whoever has the right to interpret scripture. They don't.
Why does the Church not have a right to interpret scripture?

We are to allow scripture to speak for itself and interpret itself, and our role is to submit ourselves to what the word of God says.
... and that is called Biblical relativism, and not a way to determine orthodoxy.

Not sure why it is so difficult to understand that the Bible "interprets itself" differently for each and every person who reads it.

There is ONE truth... not many.

Even though the word trinity is not in the scripture does not mean the teaching is not there.
Same with purgatory the word is not there BUT the question IS is the teaching there?

Some groups have been arguing that the Trinity is not scripture for about 2,000 years... I would have to say that your reasoning does not work well in the real world.

Why? Because men ignore what scripture says - you conclude that there is a problem with accepting scripture at face value?

I fail to see the logic in that approach. So what is your solution - allow one man or group of men to interpret it all on your, and God's behalf? Fallible men not unlike those who mi-interpreted the Bible to begin with?


Why does the Church not have a right to interpret scripture?

God said it in His word.


... and that is called Biblical relativism, and not a way to determine orthodoxy.

Actually, it is the exact opposite.


There is ONE truth... not many.

Exactly. But when you leave interpretation in the hands of men, there become many interpretations and claims that there are many truth, or those who say that we cannot know what scripture says.

That is why God said that no man is interpret scripture.

Even though the word trinity is not in the scripture does not mean the teaching is not there.
Same with purgatory the word is not there BUT the question IS is the teaching there?
Amen my friend... but, as usual, I say it does... and so does more than a thousand years of Christians long before you and I were born... so who determines who is right?

Didn't you say the denomination decides what is "scriptural" or not?

Why does this not apply to the Catholic Church?

God said it in His word.
Please show me.

Even though the word trinity is not in the scripture does not mean the teaching is not there.

Absolutely right. The doctrine of the trinity is probably one of the strongest taught doctrines in the Bible from Genesis through to Revelation. The word trinity is just a word used to describe it.


Same with purgatory the word is not there BUT the question IS is the teaching there?

That doctrine cannot be found anywhere from Genesis through to Revelation. The only way that claims are made that it is there is through interpretations of the leaders of one or more church denominations. Interpretations of men.

Please show me.

How many times must I quote it?

2 Peter 1:19-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

The denomination decides what is scriptural but then you have to determine that you agree with it as Biblically sound. Like I could believe that Assemblies of God is closest to the truth that does not mean that they are but that is what I believe. No church has cornered the market on the truth.

Amen my friend.... but, as usual, I say it does.... and so does more than a thousand years of Christians long before you and I were born.... so who determines who is right?

God. Do you have a problem with His interpretation?

How many times must I quote it?

2 Peter 1:19-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
The Church is a collective group... and so is not a "private interpretation"... the Greek word "idios" should make this clear.

God. Do you have a problem with His interpretation?
No... but it seems you don't offer Him the same respect when others views vary from your own.

The Church is a collective group... and so is not a "private interpretation"... the Greek word "idios" should make this clear.

Ah, so you are trying to say that when you get a group of men together that the combined error in their interpretation is better than a just having that error by yourself.

Now, if that is okay for your denomination, then it must be okay for all other denominations also, right?

Be consistent!


No... but it seems you don't offer Him the same respect when others views vary from your own.

Hmmm... lets' examine that thought once you tell me if the interpretations of other denominations are equal to those made by yours.

Got to tell you Pete. I need white space. When you have long paragraphs with continuous sentences, I just have trouble reading it. But I'll give it a shot.


De Maria, sorry you got blamed for my post. :)

No problem.



What I meant was that our works will be tested by fire, that is, as we build on the foundation of Jesus, His church. If what we build with is from our own ideas or making, like a cult might do, then it will be tested. If our works are righteous, and in keeping with what has already been laid and not add to it a different Gospel than was preached in the beginning, then it will stand and we will receive our reward. Our righteous acts will not be burned up,

Ok


I didn't mean for it to sound like that, just the acts of righteousness that come from the wrong motives.

Hm? Seems to contradict what you just said.


If from spiritual pride, whoosh, up it goes, if for the praise of men, whoosh, if for personal gain, whoosh, if for any other reason than to obey the Holy Spirit, (you do have the Holy Spirit don't you?)

I think so. And that is another good point. Does the Holy Spirit contradicts itself? If you believe I have the Holy Spirit, why do you believe you can teach me anything?


then it will be accounted as loss.

OK.


If you are not Born again, you can't either see nor enter the Kingdom of God.
When did you get Born again,

Yes.


what was your experience. Were you "buried" in baptism, or just sprinkled.

I was baptized as an infant.


If so, did you believe before you were baptized, do you have the signs following that Jesus said would follow them that believe?

Do you?


To be honest, the way you interpret scripture is as far out as the Jehova's Witnesses.

I believe I interpret Scripture much better than you Pete.


You seem to believe whatever you have been taught by man.

That's why we all have different gifts Pete. Some of us are teachers:
Romans 12 6 And having different gifts, according to the grace that is given us, either prophecy, to be used according to the rule of faith; 7 Or ministry, in ministering; or he that teacheth, in doctrine; 8 He that exhorteth, in exhorting; he that giveth, with simplicity; he that ruleth, with carefulness; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without dissimulation. Hating that which is evil, cleaving to that which is good. 10 Loving one another with the charity of brotherhood, with honour preventing one another.


Why don't you pray this prayer, I did, "Dear Father God, if I am in error and if I am in the wrong place, then tell me. For if you don't tell me, then when I stand before you, on that day, I will say, "It is your fault, I asked you to tell me and you didn't"".
There's one thing I know about God, He wants us to be real, not religious.

I've prayed that many times Pete. I advise you to pray the same.


He loves it when we come and reason with Him.
Isaiah 1
18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
Says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red as crimson,
They shall be like wool.
I don't mean that we should be dis-respectful, just real.

I agree. I think you show the makings of a great Catholic. I await your entry in the Catholic Church with open arms.


God wants to work in your life beyond the limits you set, by His grace, I have had many miracles happen to me and my family, from healings to supernatural provision to visions and dreams, to even hearing the audible voice of God on at least two occasions, to seeing angels and demons and even meeting Jesus, face to face in a vision. (Though I couldn't actually see His face, it was shining like the sun.) I have seen Heaven open and God on the throne, with Jesus at His right hand,(He was standing), there was a number of elders standing and sitting on the ground around the throne,and all the Angels of heaven around them, though back at a distance. Gold dust was floating down over all the worshippers at that time, it was awesome.

That is wonderful for you Pete. Now, since you seem to have a more direct line to God than I, ask Him to teach you about the Catholic Church. And come join the church of the first born and the just made perfect.


Please understand that I don't say that to make myself sound more "spiritual" than you or anybody else, if I have received anything, then it is the gift of God, certainly not my righteousness, I battle the desires and appetites of the flesh as do we all.
I just say these things to let you know that God is not just a belief system, He is real and active today, look at what is happening in Florida and other parts of the world.

I KNOW!!


In our Church ( Dayspring Church Australia) we have had some very significant healings lately, one man was healed from Parkinsons disease, another woman was in a coma on her deathbed with cancer, she was prayed for and completely healed.
These are the works that are righteous, let these be tested in the fire, this is what you have called for at this time. If you ignore the call then l trust in your own righteousness.

I trust in God.


Sorry if it sounds like I'm judging you, I'm not,

No need to apologize. I think you are on the right track. You just need one thing more. The Catholic Church.


I don't even know you, I'm just trying to spur you on to do good works, after all, wasn't that your first love, don't you remember why you chose to follow the priesthood, to get close to God.

I'm not a priest. I'm a lay person. But I understand where you are coming from.


Rev. 3
2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

And I say to you,
James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. And this work of evangelisation that I do on the Internet is just one of my works.

I don't go around patting myself on the back however, for Scripture also says:
Matthew 6 2 Therefore when thou dost an almsdeed, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honoured by men. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

3 But when thou dost alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth. 4 That thy alms may be in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.

Sincerely,

De Maria

There is not only nothing in scripture supporting such a practice, but indeed it is a completely unnecessary practice since you are either on to way to hell not having received Christ as Saviour, or if you have received Christ as Saviour, then he has paid the price for ALL of your sins (1 John 1:9 and others). The Roman Church is therefore claiming power and authority that is does not have.

I assume you mean the payment for sins:
Acts Of Apostles 8 22 Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts Of Apostles 26 20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.

2 Corinthians 12 21 Lest again, when I come, God humble me among you: and I mourn many of them that sinned before, and have not done penance for the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness, that they have committed.

Apocalypse 2 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds.


Jesus retained those keys as shown by the fact that He still has them in the Book of Revelation.

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

Different set of keys:
Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I assume you mean the payment for sins:
Acts Of Apostles 8 22 Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts Of Apostles 26 20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.

2 Corinthians 12 21 Lest again, when I come, God humble me among you: and I mourn many of them that sinned before, and have not done penance for the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness, that they have committed.

Apocalypse 2 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds.


Nice try.

Tell me, have you found any translation other than the Douay-Rheims Bible (created by the Roman Church to support its own doctrines) which translates the word as "penance"?

The word used in Acts 8:22 in Greek is metanoeo which means to change your mind. I did not waste my time checking the rest though I suspect that the other verses are equally poorly translated.


Different set of keys:
Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

So what makes you think that they are a different set of keys?

Nice try.

Tell me, have you found any translation other than the Douay-Rheims Bible (created by the Roman Church to support its own doctrines) which translates the word as "penance"?

The word used in Acts 8:22 in Greek is metanoeo which means to change your mind. I did not waste my time checking the rest though I suspect that the other verses are equally poorly translated.

Lets see. According to the BLB, metaneo means also:

heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3340&t=kjv)

What does "amend" mean?

Amend
A verb
1 rectify, remediate, remedy, repair, amend
set straight or right; "remedy these deficiencies"; "rectify the inequities in salaries"; "repair an oversight"
Definition of amend - WordReference.com Dictionary (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/amend)

Re·pent 1 (r-pnt)
v. re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents
v.intr.
1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
v.tr.
1. To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
2. To cause to feel remorse or regret.
repent - definition of repent by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/repent)

Why that doesn't mean to amend at all? It just means to be sorry for what one has done.

Penance
Noun
1. voluntary self-punishment to make amends for a sin
2. RC Church a sacrament in which repentant sinners are forgiven provided they confess their sins to a priest and perform a penance [Latin paenitentia repentance]
penance - definition of penance by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/penance)

But penance means "to make amends".

Isn't that something? The Protestant translations don't take the entire meaning of the word into account. They leave out making amends.

Just goes to show, that the Douay is actually the most accurate translation in the English language.


So what makes you think that they are a different set of keys?

You don't know the difference between heaven and hell?

Heaven is eternal life.

Hell is eternal death.

Read it.

Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven

Rev 1:18-19 And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

This is another reason why Sola Scriptura fails. I had to explain to you the difference between heaven and hell. Unbelievable!!

Sincerely,

De Maria

Nice try.

Tell me, have you found any translation other than the Douay-Rheims Bible (created by the Roman Church to support its own doctrines) which translates the word as "penance"?

The word used in Acts 8:22 in Greek is metanoeo which means to change your mind. I did not waste my time checking the rest though I suspect that the other verses are equally poorly translated.

Lets see. According to the BLB, metaneo means also:

heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3340&t=kjv)

What does "amend" mean?

Amend
A verb
1 rectify, remediate, remedy, repair, amend
set straight or right; "remedy these deficiencies"; "rectify the inequities in salaries"; "repair an oversight"
Definition of amend - WordReference.com Dictionary (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/amend)

Re·pent 1 (r-pnt)
v. re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents
v.intr.
1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
v.tr.
1. To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
2. To cause to feel remorse or regret.
repent - definition of repent by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/repent)

Why that doesn't mean to amend at all? It just means to be sorry for what one has done.

Penance
Noun
1. voluntary self-punishment to make amends for a sin
2. RC Church a sacrament in which repentant sinners are forgiven provided they confess their sins to a priest and perform a penance [Latin paenitentia repentance]
penance - definition of penance by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/penance)

But penance means "to make amends".

Isn't that something? The Protestant translations don't take the entire meaning of the word into account. They leave out making amends.

Just goes to show, that the Douay is actually the most accurate translation in the English language.


So what makes you think that they are a different set of keys?

You don't know the difference between heaven and hell?

Heaven is eternal life.

Hell is eternal death.

Read it.

Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven

Rev 1:18-19 And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

This is another reason why Sola Scriptura fails. Apparently, by your private interpretation, you thought they were the same set of keys. I had to explain to you the difference between heaven and hell. Unbelievable!!

Sincerely,

De Maria

Actually, DeMaria, I do have those signs following, when I was 21, even though I was into dealing drugs, drinking, sex and whatever else would come my way, I still used to pray.
Must have been the catholic in me eh!
Sorry about the long runs of words with no breaks, I'm a builder, no writer, I suppose that's obvious though.
Anyway, I was out in the back yard of my parents house, and I asked God to let His light shine through me to help other people.
I walked back inside and something washed over me, and I started to speak in tongues, I thought that I had made up a new language, and thought I was pretty cool.
Even though I had been brought up a Catholic and went to Catholic school, I never even heard about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I felt wonderful, I would walk around the backyard speaking in this new language to my dog, she didn't seem to mind.
After that, I had three dreams, the first one was-
Dream 1.
I was kneeling down in a catholic church praying, I was alone, my back got really hot, so I turned around and saw blood and fire raining on the church.
I was instantly taken from there straight up, and taken back to the beginning of time, as I was flying in, I saw a figure dressed in a white monks habit, he had his hands together inside his sleeves and his head forward, so I couldn't see his face.
He was standing beside a screen, on this screen was scriptural type words, moving slowly up the screen.
I looked around to see where the light was coming from, it was shining down from space onto something else and reflected onto the screen. I could see the earth, dark and void, there was no stars or moon.
Suddenly, a very powerful voice started speaking to me, it sounded like thousands of voices of one loud voice.
I knew that that was my life on that screen, that it had been written down.
I didn't know what to think, I thought maybe it was judgement day or something.
I woke up with a start and was shaking and sweating profusely.
If you know your scriptures, you will understand this dream and the significance of it to me.
Dream 2.
I was walking along in a field, it was a beautiful sunny day, I walked down into a gully, and along the end of the gully, was a door leading into the earth.
I walked down and opened the door, there was a cave hewn out of the earth, I could see the roots of the grass sticking through.
At the end of the cave, about 20 feet or so, there was, what looked like a white ball, that had a square cut into it and padded, just like the inside of a coffin.
I stepped into the ball, and it immediately started spinning.
It was a pleasurable experience, but then, I was rolled out of the ball into an underground cave.
It was dark, except for an eerie light that was coming from around a corner.
I was picked up spiritually, or that is the best way to describe it, and forced/carried to the corner of the cave.
I looked around, I could see tables and chairs some fallen over in various places, there were also plates and cups strewn about.
On the corner that I was hanging onto, was a wooden bench, there was wooden shelves on the walls with old bottles standing and some lying down.
Everything looked as if it had been untouched for hundreds of years, all covered in dust.
This force pulled me off the post that I was hanging onto, and I was stood with my back to a large hole behind me. I looked down and saw an armour plated steel ramp leading back into the hole.
My back got really hot, and I could see the flickering of flames on the walls.
I thought, "This must be Hell, I must be at the very gates of Hell!"
I immediately began to call on the name of Jesus, I was saying "I love Jesus, Jesus is my Lord".
As I continued to say it, the power dragging me into hell, suddenly let go and I fell forward and started walking away.
I stopped saying it and the power started pulling me back again.
I almost tripped over my tongue and continued saying "Jesus is Lord, I love Jesus!"
The power stopped pulling me and I was able to go back to the hole, crawl up through the ball, out of the cave, back into the sunlight, and then I woke up sweating and shaking again!
Again, if you know your scriptures, you will recognize the significance of this dream.
Dream 3
(Hope your not getting bored) It was night time, I looked over to my left to see a town all lit up, I was on a boat about 300 or so metres offshore.
I looked to my right, and there was an enemy gunship, firing onto the shore.
There was about 6-8 other people on our boat, which was shaped exactly like Noahs ark.
I told everybody to jump off and I would ram the enemy gunship.
I turned the boat around and headed toward it.
Just before we collided, they saw me coming, and turned their guns on me, but it was too late.
We crashed into each other and as we did, I jumped off and started swimming away.
Unfortunately, the boats sank so fast, that I got sucked down with them.
I started swimming to the surface thinking, "I'll make it, I always do."
Suddenly I stopped swimming, I had drowned, I thought," Well I'm dead now, I might as well wake up".
And so I did, sweating and shaking again.
Again, if you know your scriptures, you will understand the symbolism.

I told that, to tell you this.
As I was walking around the backyard and in the laundry, it was an old house with a separate laundry, the Holy Spirit started speaking to me. He told me to get baptized by full immersion.
I said, "where am I supposed to go, the lutheran church, the prostestant church, besides, I am supposed to be in the one true church" (You see, even I believed it once)
The Holy Spirit told me to go and see this bloke that I used to buy drugs from.
He got busted bringing Buddha sticks back from Bali, glassed inside a surfboard.
I thought about it, and my idea of Christians, was like a Mormon or a Jehova's witness, that is, short hair dressed in a suit.
I said, "Look Lord, if I don't settle down in the world by the time I hit 35, I will find you then, even if I have to become a priest or a monk or a nun!" (I was being facetious)
Fortunately, He didn't strike me dead, but He was faithful, and at 35, he told me audibly to get baptized.
Even then, if yo read my profile, I have been bitten by snakes, one a taipan, and all the signs in Mark 16, I have in my life, so yes, I do have the signs, and I wasn't sold a pup, no-one brainwashed me.
God has a plan for my life, as He does for yours, I know, because He showed me.
There have been many other things that God has done in my life, but that will have to wait for another time.
Grace and Peace
Peter.

Actually, DeMaria, I do have those signs following, when I was 21, even though I was into dealing drugs, drinking, sex and whatever else would come my way, I still used to pray.
Must have been the catholic in me eh!

No. That is Luther's teaching. "Sin and sin mightily and grace will abound the more." Of course that is completely against Scripture:

Romans 6 1 What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid.

How many Protestants have I spoken to who claim that ALL their sins, past and present have been forgiven simply because they made a profession of faith. Tons and tons. Sorry, but that is a Protestant teaching. Not Catholic at all.


Sorry about the long runs of words with no breaks, I'm a builder, no writer, I suppose that's obvious though.

Just hit the Enter button after you've completed an idea. And that way you'll build a better more readable message.


Anyway, I was out in the back yard of my parents house, and I asked God to let His light shine through me to help other people.
I walked back inside and something washed over me, and I started to speak in tongues, I thought that I had made up a new language, and thought I was pretty cool.
Even though I had been brought up a Catholic and went to Catholic school, I never even heard about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I felt wonderful, I would walk around the backyard speaking in this new language to my dog, she didn't seem to mind.
After that, I had three dreams, the first one was-
Dream 1.
I was kneeling down in a catholic church praying, I was alone, my back got really hot, so I turned around and saw blood and fire raining on the church.
I was instantly taken from there straight up, and taken back to the beginning of time, as I was flying in, I saw a figure dressed in a white monks habit, he had his hands together inside his sleeves and his head forward, so I couldn't see his face.
He was standing beside a screen, on this screen was scriptural type words, moving slowly up the screen.
I looked around to see where the light was coming from, it was shining down from space onto something else and reflected onto the screen. I could see the earth, dark and void, there was no stars or moon.
Suddenly, a very powerful voice started speaking to me, it sounded like thousands of voices of one loud voice.
I knew that that was my life on that screen, that it had been written down.
I didn't know what to think, I thought maybe it was judgement day or something.
I woke up with a start and was shaking and sweating profusely.
If you know your scriptures, you will understand this dream and the significance of it to me.
Dream 2.
I was walking along in a field, it was a beautiful sunny day, I walked down into a gully, and along the end of the gully, was a door leading into the earth.
I walked down and opened the door, there was a cave hewn out of the earth, I could see the roots of the grass sticking through.
At the end of the cave, about 20 feet or so, there was, what looked like a white ball, that had a square cut into it and padded, just like the inside of a coffin.
I stepped into the ball, and it immediately started spinning.
It was a pleasurable experience, but then, I was rolled out of the ball into an underground cave.
It was dark, except for an eerie light that was coming from around a corner.
I was picked up spiritually, or that is the best way to describe it, and forced/carried to the corner of the cave.
I looked around, I could see tables and chairs some fallen over in various places, there were also plates and cups strewn about.
On the corner that I was hanging onto, was a wooden bench, there was wooden shelves on the walls with old bottles standing and some lying down.
Everything looked as if it had been untouched for hundreds of years, all covered in dust.
This force pulled me off the post that I was hanging onto, and I was stood with my back to a large hole behind me. I looked down and saw an armour plated steel ramp leading back into the hole.
My back got really hot, and I could see the flickering of flames on the walls.
I thought, "This must be Hell, I must be at the very gates of Hell!"
I immediately began to call on the name of Jesus, I was saying "I love Jesus, Jesus is my Lord".
As I continued to say it, the power dragging me into hell, suddenly let go and I fell forward and started walking away.
I stopped saying it and the power started pulling me back again.
I almost tripped over my tongue and continued saying "Jesus is Lord, I love Jesus!"
The power stopped pulling me and I was able to go back to the hole, crawl up through the ball, out of the cave, back into the sunlight, and then I woke up sweating and shaking again!
Again, if you know your scriptures, you will recognize the significance of this dream.
Dream 3
(Hope your not getting bored) It was night time, I looked over to my left to see a town all lit up, I was on a boat about 300 or so metres offshore.
I looked to my right, and there was an enemy gunship, firing onto the shore.
There was about 6-8 other people on our boat, which was shaped exactly like Noahs ark.
I told everybody to jump off and I would ram the enemy gunship.
I turned the boat around and headed toward it.
Just before we collided, they saw me coming, and turned their guns on me, but it was too late.
We crashed into each other and as we did, I jumped off and started swimming away.
Unfortunately, the boats sank so fast, that I got sucked down with them.
I started swimming to the surface thinking, "I'll make it, I always do."
Suddenly I stopped swimming, I had drowned, I thought," Well I'm dead now, I might as well wake up".
And so I did, sweating and shaking again.
Again, if you know your scriptures, you will understand the symbolism.

Yeah. And its all Catholic. Apparently you've received the gift of prophecy but not the gift of interpretation.

In the first dream you were in the CATHOLIC Church praying and you were taken up TO SAFETY.

In the 2nd dream, the Post which you were clinging to is the Pillar of Truth, the Church. And when you were pulled away, you were standing on the precipice of hell.

In the 3rd dream, you were in the Ark and safe, the Ark has always been a symbol of the Barque of Peter, the Catholic Church. But YOU made a shambles of the Ark, you sunk it and then you drowned.

Obviously, God is calling you back to the Catholic Church, but Satan is keeping you in his grip.

Repent, go to confession and reconcile yourself to God and His Church.


I told that, to tell you this.
As I was walking around the backyard and in the laundry, it was an old house with a separate laundry, the Holy Spirit started speaking to me. He told me to get baptized by full immersion.

Did you try the spirit? Because that wasn't the Holy Spirit who spoke to you. If you were Baptized Catholic, you need not be baptized again.


I said, "where am I supposed to go, the lutheran church, the prostestant church, besides, I am supposed to be in the one true church" (You see, even I believed it once)
The Holy Spirit told me to go and see this bloke that I used to buy drugs from.
He got busted bringing Buddha sticks back from Bali, glassed inside a surfboard.
I thought about it, and my idea of Christians, was like a Mormon or a Jehova's witness, that is, short hair dressed in a suit.
I said, "Look Lord, if I don't settle down in the world by the time I hit 35, I will find you then, even if I have to become a priest or a monk or a nun!" (I was being facetious)
Fortunately, He didn't strike me dead, but He was faithful, and at 35, he told me audibly to get baptized.
Even then, if yo read my profile, I have been bitten by snakes, one a taipan, and all the signs in Mark 16, I have in my life, so yes, I do have the signs, and I wasn't sold a pup, no-one brainwashed me.

Read the Scripture:

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.


God has a plan for my life, as He does for yours, I know, because He showed me.
There have been many other things that God has done in my life, but that will have to wait for another time.
Grace and Peace
Peter.

I think He has a plan for you. But you have been running from it. Come back to the Fullness of Truth and you will take your first steps in the right direction.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Ah, so you are trying to say that when you get a group of men together that the combined error in their interpretation is better than a just having that error by yourself.
It's not just any group of men... it is those chosen by the Apostles to carry on their mission... those who are protected and guided by the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands... in other words, Apostolic Succession.

Now, if that is okay for your denomination, then it must be okay for all other denominations also, right?
Yes... any that have a valid priesthood with Apostolic Succession... Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.

A lot of posts have been deleted, persoal attacks on faith, difference between explaining what ideas and teachings various denominations have, and bigoted comments about a denomination.

My point was that you can not say it is one denominations teaching when it IS in other denominations so none can point fingers.

It's not just any group of men... it is those chosen by the Apostles to carry on their mission... those who are protected and guided by the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands... in other words, Apostolic Succession.


Something that I would suggest is also not scriptural. Therefore I would suggest that it is just any groups of men. Jesus did not start a denomination, nor did He delegate a single denomination.


Yes... any that have a valid priesthood with Apostolic Succession... Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.[/QUOTE]

According to the man who you claim to be the pope, I am a valid priest.

Lets see. According to the BLB, metaneo means also:

heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3340&t=kjv)


You are quite selective is what you choose to quiote and not quote. Let's look at all of it:

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

Note that the context even of the line that you quoted has to do with chnaging one's mind. Nowhere does this suggest doing penance.


Just goes to show, that the Douay is actually the most accurate translation in the English language.

Again, I find it hard to believe that you even believe that statement.


You don't know the difference between heaven and hell?

I know the difference and I also know that when Jesus opens the door to one for a person, the door to the other is closed. What controls one, controls the other. That is the Biblical gospel.

Something that I would suggest is also not scriptural. Therefore I would suggest that it is just any groups of men. Jesus did not start a denomination, nor did He delegate a single denomination.
Opinions vary obviously, but again we come back to the question of how to decide who is right? :)

According to the man who you claim to be the pope, I am a valid priest.
Certainly... Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father." The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood."

But you are not an ORDAINED priest= a presbyter, from the Greek πρεσβύτερος, presbýteros, which is conferred by the cheirotonia, ("Laying-on of Hands"), or Holy Orders... something quite different than what you are asserting.

Opinions vary obviously, but again we come back to the question of how to decide who is right? :)

The Bible. We find that there are only 12 apostles and no more (other than jesus who is described as "The Apostle"). Thus there is no apostolic succession.


But you are not an ORDAINED priest= a presbyter, from the Greek πρεσβύτερος, presbýteros, which is conferred by the cheirotonia, ("Laying-on of Hands"), or Holy Orders... something quite different than what you are asserting.

The Bible records that the ordained priesthood was done away with.

Opinions vary obviously, but again we come back to the question of how to decide who is right? :)

The Bible. We find that there are only 12 apostles and no more (other than jesus who is described as "The Apostle"). Thus there is no apostolic succession.


But you are not an ORDAINED priest= a presbyter, from the Greek πρεσβύτερος, presbýteros, which is conferred by the cheirotonia, ("Laying-on of Hands"), or Holy Orders... something quite different than what you are asserting.

The Bible records that the ordained priersthood was done away with. I would say that being a priest with a ministry gioven by God is better than a manmade priesthood of a denomination in any case.

The Bible. We find that there are only 12 apostles and no more (other than jesus who is described as "The Apostle"). Thus there is no apostolic succession.
Obviously that is your opinion... and it was not shared by anyone who was directly tought by the Apostles.

Yours is a SERIOUS misinterpretation of Clement and Ignatius, since both of them recognized the three-fold ministry of bishop-presbyter-deacon.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. ....Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. .....Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one Cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons." (St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Philadelphians 3:2-4:1)

"You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2)

And who was the bishop for these Smyrneans? It was Polycarp! And Polycarp is the one who gives us the key to understanding our dispute here. For, as we know, Ignatius speaks of Polycarp several times as "the bishop of Smyrna." And Polycarp never objects to this, or acts as if he does not possess monarchial authority in Smyrna. Yet, when Polycarp writes to the Philippians, he does not call himself "the bishop," but rather introduces himself saying,

"Polycarp, and the presbyters with him, to the Church of God sojourning at Philippi: Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior, be multiplied."

Polycarp was tought DIRECTLY by the Apostle John.

Seems the Apostles don't agree with your interpretation of Scripture.

Obviously that is your opinion... and it was not shared by anyone who was directly tought by the Apostles.

Scripture states specifically how many Apostles there have and will be. It is not opinion (other than perhaps God's and I hope you would not challenge that as "only God's opinion")


Yours is a SERIOUS misinterpretation of Clement and Ignatius, since both of them recognized the three-fold ministry of bishop-presbyter-deacon.

I note that you immediately try to refute scripture with opinions of men.

Obviously that is your opinion... and it was not shared by anyone who was directly tought by the Apostles.

Scripture states specifically how many Apostles there have been and will be. It is not opinion (other than perhaps God's and I hope you would not challenge that as "only God's opinion")


Yours is a SERIOUS misinterpretation of Clement and Ignatius, since both of them recognized the three-fold ministry of bishop-presbyter-deacon.

I note that you immediately try to refute scripture with opinions of men - ironic!

I note that you immediately try to refute scripture with opinions of men - ironic!
Ironic is that you continually give your opinions to show how others opinions don't matter...

Ironic is that you continually give your opinions to show how others opinions don't matter.....

So you downplay scripture as opinions, but the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory. Hmmm

So you downplay scripture as opinions, but the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory. hmmm
Exactly what I have been picking up from De Marie and what is being said in these posts on Mary, purgatory and sola scriptura. It is ironic.

So you downplay scripture as opinions, but the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory. hmmm
You can try to twist my words any way you'd like... I'm confident that most who read this will notice that I never once said that "the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory"... it's simply just a lie on your part.

Please remember, I'm just explaining what I believe... I don't have problem at all with what you believe and don't judge your salvation.

From the hateful and anti-catholic rhetoric on the site you've put in your signature, I doubt you extend me the same level of love and respect.

To each his/her own. God alone will judge.

You can try to twist my words any way you'd like... I'm confident that most who read this will notice that I never once said that "the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory"... it's simply just a lie on your part.

Abuse does not help. It is not a lie - as you can see I am not the only one getting that impression. In another thread you call those who disagree with you denomination's view of the Bible as "stupid".


From the hateful and anti-catholic rhetoric on the site you've put in your signature, I doubt you extend me the same level of love and respect.

I put "Discernment Resources" and "Last Days Bible Conference" in my signature, and that is hateful and "anti-catholic"?

Which do you find hateful and anti-catholic, discernment or a conference on the Bible?

Perhaps lowering the level of abuse at those who disagree with you would reduce the impression that you are insisting that we accept your denomination's poisition.

It is not a lie - as you can see I am not the only one getting that impression.
Well, it's certainly not the truth... please show me where I said Catholic interpretations are mandatory for you or any non-Catholic to believe or retract the statement. Simple really.

Perhaps lowering the level of abuse at those who disagree with you would reduce the impression that you are insisting that we accept your denomination's poisition.
I think you are just fine where you are... and I certainly would not refer to your faith as a "cult" or any of the other garbage on the "discern" site:

"Roman Catholicism is not truly Christian, but is in fact, the largest and oldest "Christian" cult in the world."

"The blasphemous dogmas of this official Catholic catechism reveal the blindness and wickedness of those "evangelicals" who are calling for closer relationships with Romanism."

Abuse? I think this site takes the cake.:cool:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Well, it's certainly not the truth... please show me where I said Catholic interpretations are mandatory for you or any non-Catholic to believe or retract the statement. Simple really.

Your attitude is clear.

- On this thread where I disagreed with your denomination, you said that I and others were stupid.
- On another thread today, you said that Luther, believing in the non-Catholic canon was in heresy.
- On that same thread, you said that to believe what the New Catholic Encyclopedia itself said about the Council of Trent was an error (it disagrees with the official position of your denomination).

These and many other statements make it clear that you are putting forward your denominations's position as the standard of truth, and no matter what documentation we put fiorward, even if it comes from within your denomination, it is wrong.

Now, if you want this percpetion held by myself and others to go away, then start dealing with the facts and the evidence and stop calling us stupid and liars.


I think you are just fine where you are... and I certainly would not refer to your faith as a "cult" or any of the other garbage on the "discern" site:

"Roman Catholicism is not truly Christian, but is in fact, the largest and oldest "Christian" cult in the world."

"The blasphemous dogmas of this official Catholic catechism reveal the blindness and wickedness of those "evangelicals" who are calling for closer relationships with Romanism."

It is interesting that you chose not to post the link as to where specifically you found this so that the context could be seen - and without noting that this lcomment is NOT found anywhere on my site, but rather on someone else's site.

Now as for how you refer to my faith, I guess that you feel calling us liars and stupid is showing love and respect. Note that your comments go after the person.

No. That is Luther's teaching. "Sin and sin mightily and grace will abound the more." Of course that is completely against Scripture:

Actually, I was so liking the lifestyle I was in, that I decided not to follow god at that time, I don't know how you got that verse to answer what I did at that time, I wasn't looking for forgiveness, I wanted to continue in my sin, which I did for a further 15 years.


Romans 6 1 What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid.

How many Protestants have I spoken to who claim that ALL their sins, past and present have been forgiven simply because they made a profession of faith. Tons and tons. Sorry, but that is a Protestant teaching. Not Catholic at all.



Actually, we are forgiven for all our sin when we turn from sin (repent) confess our faults to Jesus, the ONLY mediator between man and God
1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
If we believe (the Faith) that Jesus became a curse on that cross, and paid the penalty for our sins, then if we accept that sacrifice,(the free and most precious gift of God to man, the life of His only Son) as our own, then we receive forgiveness of sin, by the grace and mercy of the Father.
If we think that we can pay for our own sin by penance or works, then Jesus death was worthless.
If we confess our sin, then we should believe God when He says that that sin is gone.

1 John 1
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I still sin, we all do, but if we recognize our sin, then it is my advice, to keep short accounts with God.
It is not as if we are confessing to God, all we are doing is agreeing with Him, He already knows we sinned, He is just waiting for us to come into agreement.
He judges the thoughts and intents of the heart, there is nothing hidden, best release it to Him and receive forgiveness.
There is a flip side to this, if we do not believe that Jesus sacrifice was enough, we agree with the devil, and open a door of oppression, guilt and shame that does not belong to us.
Jesus already took that to the cross.
It also opens up the opportunity for the devil to bring the curse on our lives.
God's law cannot be broken, it is eternal, but it is there for our good not for evil.
however, satan takes advantage of the law and if we have broken it, satan ( his name means accuser) goes before God and accuses us.
If we harbour that sin in our hearts, and don't bring it to the feet of Jesus, satan has a legal right to bring the curse of death on our lives, in one form or another.
Look at Job, satan could not touch him without God's word, look at 1 Corinthians 15

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.





Just hit the Enter button after you've completed an idea. And that way you'll build a better more readable message.
Thanks, I will take your advice on this one.



Yeah. And its all Catholic. Apparently you've received the gift of prophecy but not the gift of interpretation.

In the first dream you were in the CATHOLIC Church praying and you were taken up TO SAFETY.

Actually, it was raining blood and fire on the catholic church and I was taken out of there, then taken back to before the world was formed and I was shown that God has pre-destined me from way back then, as I believe He has for us all.
Rev 8
7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

The first of the judgements of God on the earth.
It is our choice to follow the Holy Spirit and Gods will for our lives or follow the teachings of man.


In the 2nd dream, the Post which you were clinging to is the Pillar of Truth, the Church. And when you were pulled away, you were standing on the precipice of hell.

Wrong again, I was happy doing my own thing in life, I would try anything, any sin was okay, particularly sexual sin. The shape in the ball was like a coffin, and the cave, the grave.
The underground cavern, was a place of drunkenness and selfish gratification.
The hole and the heat and the flickering of flames on the walls, was definitely the gates of hell, with the devil drawing me down with my own selfish lusts.
When I called out to Jesus, He was right there, He saved me from the sin that was drawing me into Hell.
He that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13)



In the 3rd dream, you were in the Ark and safe, the Ark has always been a symbol of the Barque of Peter, the Catholic Church. But YOU made a shambles of the Ark, you sunk it and then you drowned..

Wrong again, the ark, according to 1Peter 3

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Here, even Peter says that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God.
Did you have a good conscience toward god before you were baptized?
It is accepted that baptism is an adult decision to follow Christ.
It also has the symbolism of death, burial and resurrection.
This is the meaning of the dream, the ark, symbolic of baptism, is used to destroy the enemy, sin. Then there was a dying under water, and resurrection, e.g.. "I may as well wake up!"
Romans 6

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.




Obviously, God is calling you back to the Catholic Church, but Satan is keeping you in his grip.

Repent, go to confession and reconcile yourself to God and His Church



Did you try the spirit? Because that wasn't the Holy Spirit who spoke to you. If you were Baptized Catholic, you need not be baptized again.



I was "baptized?" a catholic, but I put no credibility on it. My brother is God father to a number of children in the catholic faith, yet never goes to church and lives to please himself... [/QUOTE]





Read the Scripture:

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.



Everything I do and that I believe, can be found in the bible, without twisting scripture to fit the doctrine.
God's word is as plain as the nose on your face, He doesn't really make it that hard to find Him.
I don't believe that a God that would give His son to die for us, would send us to burn in excruciating pain for centuries to pay for the sin that was too much for Jesus to handle.
what about the thief on the cross, seems he jumped right over purgatory straight into paradise.
What about those that will be still alive when Jesus returns, to be forever with the Lord.
Will they have to say, hang on Jesus, you didn't finish the work you were sent for, I just have to burn for a few centuries, thank you for your loving kindness, then jump into the fire. I think not!

1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Have a good weekend, grace and peace to you.

That didn't work right, how do you do the quote to be high lighted, thanks.

It is interesting that you chose not to post the link as to where specifically you found this so that the context could be seen.


Where did those quotes come from? I would like to see the context.

It is interesting that you chose not to post the link as to where specifically you found this so that the context could be seen.
It's a site YOU linked to... you need me to show you what's on it? :confused:

Now as for how you refer to my faith, I guess that you feel calling us liars and stupid is showing love and respect. Note that your comments go after the person.
**YAWN**

It's a site YOU linked to... you need me to show you what's on it? :confused:

**YAWN**

Ah, so you lied when you said:

"I think you are just fine where you are.... and I certainly would not refer to your faith as a "cult" or any of the other garbage on the "discern" site:"

This is not on the "discern" site after all, and I did not say it.

Perhaps it is you who should now apologize, and rather than trying to demean your opponents through false accusations and name-calling, deal with the issue!

It's a site YOU linked to... you need me to show you what's on it? :confused:

**YAWN**

Nowhere did he ask you to show him what's on it. If I'm understanding him correctly, he was saying that you should have posted the link for those of us who may be checking in from time to time.

The quote above from your post Scott does little to move the discussion forward. It just emotionally charges the discussion. That is not to say that Tj3 might have been more careful in regards to what he linked to.

Rob

Nowhere did he ask you to show him what's on it. If I'm understanding him correctly, he was saying that you should have posted the link for those of us who may be checking in from time to time.
Fair enough... I just thought it amusing that I'm supposed to give HIM a quote that he uses in his signature.

1. Go to Discern.ca
2. Click Roman Catholicism
3. Go to the bottom of the page where you will see:
4. Other Links
Various Articles on Catholicism (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/)

You'll forgive me if I don't post any more of the hate-speach from that site... this step-by-step will have to be enough.

The quote above from your post Scott does little to move the discussion forward.
Hence the **YAWN** crack... I hope this will be quite enough of this... and we can get back to Purgatory.

That is not to say that Tj3 might have been more careful in regards to what he linked to.
Glad you agree.

ScottRC,

I've seen it go both ways. There is a website (RC) where there is supposedly a code of conduct - acceptable usage policy that states no ad hominems and to keep it polite, yet the regulars refer to the Reformers as the Deformers & etc. yet if a Protestant doesn't capitalize the word Catholic, all "you know what" breaks loose. The other posters also deliberately "misinterpret" what the Protestant posters say and the other members pile on. Finally, the home team posters will deliberately ride the line on acceptability, then when the Protestant finally bites back he is censured.

On the other hand, it must be tiring to read a post by a misinformed individual attacking your church with the same tired lines, when all he is doing is parroting something that he's heard. (Which is not to say that I agree with your church's theology.)

So, I can sympathize.

Rob

Fair enough... I just thought it amusing that I'm supposed to give HIM a quote that he uses in his signature.

But I don't use it in my signature and never have. That is an outright blatant lie, and you have proved in on here.

What you picked was a link from a webpage whiich is linked from a webspage which I do not control or own, which was linked from my webpage which was linked from my signature.

It was not in my signature as you have now claimed twice, and the second time is a deliberate lie because you have already noted that it was not in my signature, nor even on my webapge.

So tell me, is lying endorsed by your denomination?

So far you have called me stupid, and lied about me to defend your position.

Do you think lying about me is enhancing your argument at all? Or are you simply trying to distract from the bankruptcy of your argument?

On the other hand, it must be tiring to read a post by a misinformed individual attacking your church with the same tired lines, when all he is doing is parroting something that he's heard. (Which is not to say that I agree with your church's theology.)

So, I can sympathize.
Does get a bit old... eventually we'll get back on topic.

Does get a bit old... eventually we'll get back on topic.

But will we see an apology for your false accusations and abuse? Remember, the rest of us were trying to discuss the topic - you were the one who de-railed the discussion with abusive comments.

Well Scott, I see that you have posted no retraction of apology for your libellous and false accusations (even though you were in fact on line when I posted my previous response and have been on-line since).

The fact that you had to go to a link of link of a link off my webpage to another webpage tells me that you could not find the hoped for "hateful" comments on my page or on anything that I wrote, so you went elsewhere and then falsely attributed the comments to me. That speaks well of my site that your best efforts could find nothing to honestly complain about on site.

To be honest, your behaviour on here calling those who disagree with your denomination "stupid" and "ignorant" and liars" and this comment, followed by your refusal to withdraw the comments or apologize speaks louder than anything that I could ever say, or would ever say about your faith. And you note that I have said nothing derogatory about the adherents to your faith.

Yes a person may make a mistake, but how you deal with it after that is what tells us what your faith means to you in real life, or as we read in scripture:

James 2:20-21
0 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
NKJV

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.
The Church has carried on the biblical tradition to this day.
Yours is a very good question but I fear there is no clear answer to how long a person stay in purgatory.
God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Oops, spelling error!
Just practicing

A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.

There is no way to look at the supposed purgatory, in a positive way.
How can extreme agony that may last for centuries, in a fire that melts rock, e.g. the lake of fire in the centre of the earth.
How any-one can believe that a loving Father, could put His beloved children, that is, those that chose to follow his Son, into such extreme suffering.
The idea comes from the worship of Molech where they passed their children through the fire.
Actually, I believe the had a statue of Molech, probably bronze, with outstretched hands.
They had a raging fire inside the statue that had it almost glowing red.
The drumming and the chanting covered the screams of the baby as it was placed into the hands of the statue and cooked and burnt alive.


The idea of purgatory has been around a long time, Plato, who lived between427 to 347 BC, spoke of the Orphic teachers of his day " who would flock to rich mens doors and try to persuade them that they have a power at their command, which the procure from heaven and which enables them by sacrifices and incantation, to make amends for any crime committed by the individual himself, or his ancestors. their mysteries deliver us from the torments of the other world, while the neglect of them is punished by an awful doom." (Smith , "Man and his gods" P. 127)

There is an elaborate description of purgatorial suffering in the sacred writings of Buddhism.
There were times that there were so many Chinese buddhists that came to buy prayers for the deliverance from purgatory that special shops were set up for this purpose.
In the religion of Zoroaster, souls are taken through twelve stages before they are sufficiently purified to enter heaven.
The Stoics conceived of a middle place of enlightenment which they called Empurosis, that is, "a place of fire".
According to Moslem doctrine, the angels Munnker and Nekier question those who die as to their religion and prophet.
Many of these go into purgatory, but through money given to a priest, an escape may be provided.
The concept of giving money on behalf of the dead is very ancient, a point which may be seen in the Bible itself.
Apparently the Israelites were exposed to this belief, for they were warned not to give money "for the dead"(Deut 26:14)
After presenting detailed evidence for his conclusion, Hislop says:"In every system, therefore, except that of the Bible, the doctrine of purgatory after death, and prayers for the dead, has always been found to occupy a place" ( Hislop. "The two Babylons P. 167)
it is very possible that concepts about purgatory and certain ideas linked with Molech worship, all stemmed from the same source.
It appears that various nations had the idea that fire, in one way or another, was necessary to cleanse from sin.
The Israelites were repeatedly forbidden to let their seed " pass through the fire to Molech"
(Lev.18:21 Jer. 32:35, 2 Kings 23:10)
Molech, (who some identify with Bel or Nimrod), was worshipped "with human sacrifices, purifications, with mutilation, vows of celibacy and virginity, and devotion of the firstborn."( Fausset's Bible Encl.)
( Babylon Mystery Religion P. 71-72)

God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

This is a double-barreled statement spoken. First you tell us God decides the judgement of sins. Then you appoint yourself in judgement by saying they go to heaven. Who put you on the right hand of God? I rebuke your statement in the Name of Jesus.

1 Samuel 2:2-3 There is none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: neither [is there] any rock like our God. Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let [not] arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.

Matthew 15: 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.
The Church has carried on the biblical tradition to this day.
Yours is a very good question but I fear there is no clear answer to how long a person stay in purgatory.
God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

I do appreciate your answer. Part of the reason I asked is that there seems (from what I can tell discussing this topic with my friends) to be an "official debate version" of purgatory and a "popular version." My memory is a little foggy, but it seems my Catholic Catechism mentions an indulgence of 3 years for reading the Bible for 15 minutes. (Or 3 years off purgatory time. I can't remember which, I'll have to check it.)

Rob

p.s. Just to be clear, I am not Catholic, nor do I believe that the Bible teaches Purgatory. Yes, I have read the Apocrypha, much of the fathers, and the entire Bible several times including the often quoted proof texts for purgatory such as Luke 16:24; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Corinthians 3:15... I'm simply trying to get a handle on the RC view.

This is interesting but again it is using 1 Corinthians 3 that is the Judgment day of works not sin to justify believing purgatory.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory_qa.html

Everything I read that put a time on purgatory said 12 months

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.


Fred, that argument is getting a bit old, but I would be interested in seeing you provide some scriptural backup for the claim.


God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.


Jesus purged ALL my sins.

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Note that this is clear that He (Jesus) purged the sins of those who are saved "by himself".

As for who forgives our sins, it is, once again, Jesus:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob
The Catholic Church have recently turned around and stated that all the unborn babies that were buried in fields with no priest or prayers were destined to 'Limbo'. This has been now overturned by the Catholic Church and state that all these babies go straight to Gods Kingdom. In the famine years in Ireland in the 1883, when Ireland was under the rule of the British Empire. Irish people were not educated, were dependent on the potato as the main diet. When this food chain was destroyed by 'blight; the British allowed nearly two million Irish to starve. There was no under nurished priest in Ireland and my Grandfather recalls young men and women being buries where they fell. No, I do not believe in Purgatory. That will be the next admission by the Catholic Church. All have their suffering in one form or another.

The Catholic Church have recently turned around and stated that all the unborn babies that were buried in fields with no priest or prayers were destined to 'Limbo'. This has been now overturned by the Catholic Church and state that all these babies go straight to Gods Kingdom.
No they have not.

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
Catechism of the Catholic Church #1261

That is what gets me about those Catholic teaching they change with the times whenever if they were of God they wouldn't be 'outdated' where they have to change,

Tj3 agrees: Quite true. And you can never get an answer as to how many indulgences or masses for the dead that you pay for will release you or your loved one from [purgatory.

Yeah and in fact I have heard them say that it is not true that you have to do indulgences, masses or pay their way out. Also the Bible clearly shows PERSONAL relationship so no man can intervene for another other than prayer WHILE they are STILL alive.

That is what gets me about those Catholic teaching they change with the times whenever if they were of God they wouldn't be 'outdated' where they have to change,
Fair enough... but we see things a bit differently:

"The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ." Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries" (CCC#66)

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?

Where does the Bible say that others can get you out of Purgatory or save your soul by indulgences, masses or money?
Spiritual things are not contingent on money either. That is where Judas and others made their mistake was thinking Jesus came to fix the material world.

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?
Not a very Christian attitude, now is it?

If you want to think loopholes are more acturate than scripture then I guess maybe it isn't a very Catholic attitude

If you want to think loopholes are more acturate than scripture then I guess maybe it isn't a very Catholic attitude
Since you've yet to prove your interpretation is scripture is 100% infallibly accurate, I can't see how you can honestly judge anyone else..?

Once again, on purgatory:

Purgatory exists because God is both just and merciful.

Purgatory is “like a refiner’s fire” (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ’s Body and having thereby received God’s supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.

......but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)

In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)

Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word - just like the Trinity.

Fair enough.... but we see things a bit differently:

"The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ." Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries" (CCC#66)

The essentials of the Christian faith were known and grasped by the Apostles, and presented in God's word so that we too would have what it is that we need to know. Indeed, the essentials of the gospel of jesus were found in the Old Testament:

2 Tim 3:14-15
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

Therefore if purgatory or any other doctrine (i.e. transubstantiation, papal infallibility, existence of a pope, calling Mary a co-redemptrix, etc) were part of the Christian faith, it would have been addressed in scripture. Anything which is not in agreement with scripture is not part of the Christian faith, and other non-essentials may exist which God chose not to reveal to us which we are in the flesh. In any case, scripture says not to go beyond what is written.

Since you've yet to prove your interpretation is scripture is 100% infallibly accurate, I can't see how you can honestly judge anyone else....???

Are you saying that you do not accept scripture as God's word?

John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for ‘wrongs’ they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks

At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy)

Where does scripture say that?

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV


... but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

By Jesus, according to scripture, not through purgatory.


Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Refers to our works. For example, is our foundation Jesus Christ, or a man? Any works that we have done which are not for Him will be burned up prior to the judgment, and the crowns were be reward on the basis of those works which remain. This does not refer to purgatory in any way shape or form.


1 Pet 1:7)

1 Peter 1:7-8
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
NKJV

Note that your faith is tested by fire. This is an example of how your faith is tested:

Heb 11:17-19
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
NKJV

Not in purgatory.


In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)

Read the whole context:

1 John 1:7-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

1 John 1:8 is not speaking about in death, but note that 1 John 1:9 destroys the doctrine of purgatory.
In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)


Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

No, it says that sin cannot be forgiven after death. You apparently missed the "not". BTW, if you are assuming that because it referred to this sin as not being forgiven in death means that other sins can be, that is not a logical conclusion.

If your mechanic told you that the cylinder in your car is damaged so bad that it cannot be fixed, it does not mean that cylinders in other cars similar damaged can be fixed. This is a defined logic fallacy.

the topic here was sin against the Holy Spirit, and as we can see unless everything is nailed down people established new doctrines where scripture is silent. If Jesus had not been specific about it not being forgiven after death, someone would have come up with a doctrine saying that it can be forgiven after death, maybe even in purgatory.


The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word - just like the Trinity.

I can point out the doctrine of trinity using the rules of logic, and going by what scripture does say, not by the absence of what it says, and going by what it explicitly says, and can prove the trinity in either the OT or NT (in fact it is more strongly stated in the OT), but you cannot do the same with purgatory.

John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for ‘wrongs’ they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks

John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV

This could be seen two different ways. First, it could be seen as a special privilege given to the Apostles. If so, then that is a privilege which has gone away since scripture is clear that there have only been 12 Apostles, and there are no more today.

It could be seen as being common to all disciples, since it refers to disciples, not Apostles, in this passage, and if so, it would be a privilege given to all believers.

You are correct that it is not clear in the specifics, but I would suggest that the most likely explanation is that insofar as we are in harmony with the Holy Spirit, we will be acting in accordance with the will of the Spirit. In this case, it is not so much that these men could decide to forgive sins, but rather than these men insofar as they were submitted to the will of the Holy Spirit and spoke in accordance with the Holy Spirit (i.e. prophetically) were declaring the forgiveness of sins. This does not give any men (apostles or not) the right to make up new rules around the forgiveness of sin - that was decided already by God - so it has no relevance to the doctrine of purgatory.

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?

Where does the Bible say that others can get you out of Purgatory or save your soul by indulgences, masses or money?
Spiritual things are not contingent on money either. That is where Judas and others made their mistake was thinking Jesus came to fix the material world.

Good points.

This would also be contrary to scripture because through indulgences, it would be easier for the rich man to get to heaven than the poor man, simply by buying enough indulgences, or paying in advance for enough masses for the dead.

Jesus' view of how easy it was for money to get us to heaven is:

Luke 18:24-25
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
NKJV

Suggesting that money somehow is a substitute payment for sin, in my opinion, cheapens the immense and infinite value of the price paid by Jesus on the cross for our sin. We need to keep in mind also that everything that we own is not really ours in any case, but everything - all of it - belongs to God, therefore by trying to pay Him with what He rightly already owns further cheapens the value of His sacrifice on the cross.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.
I don't think this "power" was given to each person who has received the Holy Spirit... but only the Apostles and those who followed them in the office of Bishop.

I don't think this "power" was given to each person who has received the Holy Spirit... but only the Apostles and those who followed them in the office of Bishop.

I can see how one might argue it was to the apostles, but there is no indication whatsoever that this would apply to anyone else who followed after them since there only have been 12 Apostles. If you disagree, then show us from scripture where it expands its application beyond the Apostles.

Purgatory is “like a refiner’s fire” (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.



Your refer: this as proof of purgatory? {{{Rebuke your false teaching}}}

Mal 3:2-3 But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

This is proof of Christ !

Your refer: this as proof of purgatory?
Not "proof" of anything... I don't believe in "proof texts"... bit silly I feel.

This is proof of Christ !
Okey dokey.

God bless you my friend.

Are you saying that you do not accept scripture as God's word?



My opinion says he doesn't.. especially after his last message to reply of scripture.

My opinion says he doesn't.. especially after his last message to reply of scripture.
Are you referring to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

John 20:22-24
As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone's sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for 'wrongs' they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks


My opinion would be to try and understand what the disciples were seeing for the first time after seeing Christ on the cross. And to confirm that notion, Jesus shows them the signs of His last appearance by showing them His side and hands. Further more Jesus gives them the Spirit which grants them the ability to acknowledge His presence being real. The last verse was spoken by Jesus to assure them, that they themselves had nothing to fear in not believing what they had first thought in their hearts, but rather telling them Jesus found understanding in their fear and forgives them. Plus if they were in question of each others thoughts, Forgive one another. It is Christ that will judge our hearts.

I trust we must remember what the disciples were always taught in understanding that you must believe in Christ.. For a moment might they have thought their own heart had sinned by not believing it was He that stood before them.

Find comfort and rest in Christ, He is the Word of God.

John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV

Let's also note that Jesus was aware of everything before hand. He knew that even Thomas was next to come and doubt. Surely Christ would want the disciples to be forgiving to Thomas's doubts.

John:24:24-25 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

The depth of our sin is great, but the purity of our forgiveness thr Christ is greater

Are you refering to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

Yes, I was refer: you and your previous post.

Posting #230
Not "proof" of anything.... I don't believe in "proof texts"... bit silly I feel.


My reply is respect the Word of God.. and your posting in #230 is contrary to 2 Timothy shown.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

My reply is respect the Word of God .. and your posting in #230 is contrary to 2 Timothy shown.
Nope... simply just contrary to your opinion of what the verse means.

You do understand the difference between an objective truth and a opinion, right?

Are you refering to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

I notice that you did not answer the question. The way that you worded this, the truth could be buried somewhere in the scriptures, but the scripture may not be fully inspired by God.

Nope... simply just contrary to your opinion of what the verse means.

You do understand the difference between an objective truth and a opinion, right?

If you are saying that everything comes down to "opinion" about scripture, then you would end up with postmodernism, not orthodox Christianity. Postmodernism being the belief that we can all just sit around, discuss our opinions and whatever comes out on top must be the truth.

There are some things in scripture which are not clear and others which are abundantly clear. Where it is clear, we must submit ourselves to what it says. Where it is not clear, we must be carefully about making it doctrinal. Where scripture is silent, we may speculate, but we must again not make our speculations (or traditions as the case may be) doctrinal.

Peter Wilson.
Purgatory is NOT hell.
All we know about Purgatory comes from a few verses in the bible.
Here is what we know that about person whose sinful nature is purged.
1 Cor. 3: 15. The one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire. (NJB)
So a person loses his/her sinful nature and is therefore saved and goes to heaven.
We do not know what a person in Purgatory goes through but I suspect that it is different for each person depending on his/her sins during moral life.
An elderly person I know who is now going through difficult health and other problems thinks that he may be going through a taste of Purgatory now because his conscience is giving him a thorough working over as the memories of his past are filling his mind.
Who knows, that may be a part of it.
But the fact remains (as the bible tells us) impurities are not allowed in heaven.
So if a person is to go there he/she most be pure or purified.
Forgiving sins is one thing but the nature of a person to have done those sins is another.
Even if the sins are washed away as though they had not happened the nature to be sinful still remains.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Purgatory is NOT hell.

No, Hell exists.


Here is what we know that about person whose sinful nature is purged.

Jesus Himself purges the sins of those who are saved - no purgatory.

Heb 1:3-4
He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV


1 Cor. 3: 15. The one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire. (NJB)

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Refers to our works. For example, is our foundation Jesus Christ, or a man? Any works that we have done which are not for Him will be burned up prior to the judgment, and the crowns were be reward on the basis of those works which remain. This does not refer to purgatory in any way shape or form.


Even if the sins are washed away as though they had not happened the nature to be sinful still remains.

Not according to scripture.

Rom 4:21-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

For those who are saved, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, and 1 John 1:9 says that we are cleansed of all sins. That takes care of both sin and righteousness. Nothing else is left. Jesus finished the work on the cross.

Tj3,
Believe as you want to now.
Later you will Know that Purgatory exists for sure.
Pace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tj3,
Believe as you want to now.
Later you will Know that Purgatory exists for sure.
Pace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

Believe as you wish, but I am quite happy to stand on what God's word says. I do not plan to spend any length of time in fiery punishment. If you prefer a fiery punishment, then so be it. If you would prefer to have assurance of salvation from the fiery punishment, I'd be happy to share that with you.

Dear Arcura, once and for all, so many have been telling you that purgatory is a hoax, you and others try to prove it by the use of 1 Corinthians 3:15.
Again, for the umpteenth time, this verse is talking about our works, if they be worthy or not.
If we go about preaching about things that God will not honour, like the doctrine of Purgatory, then that will be burned up.
If we go about helping and loving others, these will remain.
Whenever we obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, whether it is by following the scriptures or by Him speaking directly into our spirit, these works will stand.
Any works that we have done for profit, for pride, for self advancement, for praise of others, as a matter of fact, anything that wasn't done for the love of God and love for your neighbor, and not done from the heart, is burned up.
The fire that is mentioned here, deals with God's word, the one that comes from His mouth when He judges your works, here are a few examples of the words of God.

2 Samuel 22

7 In my distress I called to the LORD;
I called out to my God.
From his temple he heard my voice;
My cry came to his ears.

8 "The earth trembled and quaked,
The foundations of the heavens [c] shook;
They trembled because he was angry.

9 Smoke rose from his nostrils;
consuming fire came from his mouth,
burning coals blazed out of it.

10 He parted the heavens and came down;
Dark clouds were under his feet.

11 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
He soared on the wings of the wind.

12 He made darkness his canopy around him—
The dark rain clouds of the sky.

13 Out of the brightness of his presence
Bolts of lightning blazed forth.

14 The LORD thundered from heaven;
The voice of the Most High resounded.

15 He shot arrows and scattered the enemies ,
Bolts of lightning and routed them.

16 The valleys of the sea were exposed
And the foundations of the earth laid bare
At the rebuke of the LORD,
At the blast of breath from his nostrils.

Jeremiah 5

13 The prophets are but wind
And the word is not in them;
So let what they say be done to them."

14 Therefore this is what the LORD God Almighty says:
"Because the people have spoken these words,
I will make my words in your mouth a fire
And these people the wood it consumes.

Deuteronomy 4:11-13

11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness.
12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

Jeremiah 20

9 But if I say, "I will not mention him
or speak any more in his name,"
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
Indeed, I cannot.

Jeremiah 23

25 "I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream!'
26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?
27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through Baal worship.
28 Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the LORD.
29 "Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

30 "Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.' 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD.


Hosea 6
5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth;
my judgments flashed like lightning upon you.

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
And acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.


Psalm 29

7 The voice of the LORD strikes
with flashes of lightning.
8 The voice of the LORD shakes the desert;
The LORD shakes the Desert of Kadesh.

9 The voice of the LORD twists the oaks [c]
And strips the forests bare.
And in his temple all cry, "Glory!"


When the Lord judges our works, it will have to judged against His word and by His word.
This is the true meaning of this scripture, not some weak link to an imagined netherworld of pain, torment and suffering for those that have put their trust in Jesus.
To say that Jesus death on the cross did not save us from the penalty for our sins, is to agree with the devil, therefore, it is against Christ.
I guess it is hard to understand that you are under a spirit of delusion, when there are so many in agreement with you.
You make a mockery of God's love, when you take the most loved scripture in the Bible and say that God's love is flawed, that His love includes terror, pain, torment, suffering, just to be made righteous.
I am flabbergasted at the use of some of the scriptures the Catholics use to give credibility to their argument.
It's an insult to my God and His word.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son.
If you are a father or mother, would you give the life of your child to die in the place of murders, thieves, adulterers etc.
If you were in this position, you would say, "Take my life not theirs".
For your love for your children is greater than the love for yourself.
How great then, was the love of the Father, to give the one He loved even more than Himself, to pay for our sins, and then we say, "not good enough God, I have to do my own works to get into Heaven"
We make the gift of God of none effect if we do this.
If I could lay down my own life to get you to accept the Grace of God, then I would.
You are so precious to God, he wants to love on you, not beat you up.
This is not His nature.
This is His nature,

Nehemiah 9
But You are a God of forgiveness,
Gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.

This does not sound like the ogre that the catholic church preaches.
Our God is a God of Love, He never changes.
Bless you.

Tj3,
Believe as you want to now.
Later you will Know that Purgatory exists for sure.
Pace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)


The difference is Tj3 has laid his life and faith in Christ. Tj3 and others here who believe as he does follow Christ. The veil was cut wide open by Christ. What was once is no more because of Chirst' blood.
You Fred, follow your church and their traditions as a path to Christ, needing your priest, along with traditions of man to reach salvation.

As in the temple there was a holy chamber in which only the priest could enter the sanctuary.
Ezekiel 44:11.. Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, [having] charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

However when Christ was on the cross this changed everything that was, because no more burnt offerings were needed. He died for us, and took power over the devil. The veil which only the priest could go through is now gone.

Hebrews 2: 9-14 .. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The holy chamber at that time was open to everyone, the veil was opened.

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

My question to you Fred is, do you trust and believe in these scripture?

Tj3, I agree.. it won't let me give you green..

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ's Body and having thereby received God's supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.

......but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)



Scott RC,

We've already kicked around 1 Corinthians 3:15. Here, you are also appealing to 1 Peter 1:7 as a proof text for purgatory.

Here is the text from 1 Peter (NIV) in context:

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Looks to me like Peter is referring to trials that the believers are encountering here on the earth. Since he is writing to live persons, I don't understand how you can use a text about suffering in life as a Christian to support a belief in Purgatory - which according to your definition occurs after death. Do you agree that Peter is writing to live persons about events that "have come" which they "have had to suffer?"

If so, how does this text support the notion of purgatory as defined by ccc 1030?

Rob

ScottRC, If you had children, or if you have, and you loved them so much your heart would break if anything should happen to them.
What if you knew their was an enemy out to kill them, so you made a safe haven for them.
What if your beloved children made a mistake, no not one mistake, many mistakes, but then they had a change of heart and came to you and admitted to you that they messed up and that they were truly sorry that they not only hurt you by their disobedience, but let you down in your hope for them.
What if you forgave them and welcomed them back, not only into your home, but into your heart.
Would you then say to them,"I know that you are sorry for all the trouble you have caused, and I can see that you really want to change, and have changed from that selfish child that you were. I can see that you have a broken heart for the hurt you have caused me, and I forgive you completely, but because you still have a tendency for sin, that was in you when you were born, I am going to take you over to this red hot stove and hold your hand on it for 10 minutes, because I love you."
If you, or anybody did that to their child, they would be classed a monster and thrown into prison, where they belong.
How-ever, this is the way that you see God, only much, much worse, not the hand, but the whole body, and not for ten minutes, for many. Many years.
For God's sake, wake up to yourself, this is not the nature of God, this is the nature of the devil.
He came to steal, kill and destroy, Jesus came to give life and more abundantly.
God loves you, He is a good God not an evil tyrant.
Give Him the honour He deserves, stop believing the lies of the devil, and know the love of God in truth.

Romans 8

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Dear tsila1777, absolutely, even as it says in Hebrews 12 -
10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.
13 "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

I can see that you have mastered the discipline that you are under, even in suffering, you give glory to God.
My 7 yr old daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia last year, and even though I thought of myself as a mature Christian, I fell to pieces.
How-ever, through the strength of the love that was shown us, not only by the Church, but by our neighbors, my work mates and Jamies' school, we made it through.
I was blown away by the love and compassion shown by all.
It revived in me the spirit of mateship, that I thought was dead here in Australia.
It showed me that it wasn't that others had shut their hearts to me, quite the opposite, and I found that love can come from any quarter.
I saw love coming from Christians and non Christians, it was so refreshing for both, my wife and I.
It may seem odd to some, but I thank God that Jamie got leukemia, it changed my focus, I thought that what I believed was right, I was still going to Church, reading my Bible etc, but this just knocked me for six.
You don't realise how much you need God, until there is nowhere else to turn.
Suddenly, I had to seek the Lord in earnest, not passive prayers anymore, but with a hungry heart, wanting more and more of God.
Jamie, by God's grace, is doing fine, she is amazing the doctors, one of whom said to us after examining Jamie and looking at all the test results, "If any body saw these results and looked at you (Jamie), they would say that you have never had Leukemia!"
I thank God for His discipline, I needed it, and He knew just where to get my attention!
Bless you Tsila, I pray that the Lord will fill you with even greater wisdom and understanding in your knowledge of Him.
:) :)

ScottRC
How am I judging? How is my saying that any different than your claims that 'my interpretation' OR sola scriptura is wrong?

If so, how does this text support the notion of purgatory as defined by ccc 1030?
Maybe it does... maybe it does not... Catholic theology does not rest upon looking for "proof texts" to justify our teachings... so I'm not sure what you could gain by trying to break down every verse... it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide which is correct, right?
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ScottRC, If you had children, or if you have, and you loved them so much your heart would break if anything should happen to them.
I have NO CLUE as to what the point of your post is...

It has NOTHING to do with the Catholic teaching on Purgatory, so I'm at a loss at how to respond... nothing that you offered is contrary to Catholic teaching... so I can only assume that you just don't understand it and have projected your faulty understanding into the discussion.
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How am I judging? How is my saying that any different than your claims that 'my interpretation' OR sola scriptura is wrong?
I don't believe I even said you were "wrong" in the same way... I don't doubt your salvation because of what you believe... I'm not sure if you can say the same thing about me.

Once again... I couldn't care less if you remain a non-Catholic and continue to believe in sola scriptura... a person can be saved in or out of the Catholic church... I'm just talking about topics that are important to us as Christians, but you'll never hear me telling someone that they are following the "nature of the devil" like Protestants attack Catholics.

If you can't see the difference between a debate and judgement, then I can't help you understand.

Maybe it does... maybe it does not... Catholic theology does not rest upon looking for "proof texts" to justify our teachings...

Let's change the reference to "proof texts" and let's discuss scripture. What we are trying to establish is not p;roof texts as such but scriptural validation for your interpretation.


so I'm not sure what you could gain by trying to break down every verse... it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide which is correct, right?

We should be looking for how scripture interprets scripture not personal interpretation.


a person can be saved in or out of the Catholic church...

You are living on the edge, stepping outside of Roman Catholic teachings there!

"...we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
(Source: Roman Catholic Church Bull UNAM SANCTAM, November 18, 1302)

"For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."
(Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church Article 816)


I'm just talking about topics that are important to us as Christians, but you'll never hear me telling someone that they are following the "nature of the devil" like Protestants attack Catholics.

You have said that those who disagree with the Catholic teachings are stupid and ignorant. Is that better?

Additional help in understanding the Catholic teaching on Purgatory:

Purgatory (http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm)

Fr. Frank Sofie (http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PURGBAS.HTM)

And my favorite, a fairly complete Q&A on Purgatory from Jimmy Akin: How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants (http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm)