Purgatory - just how long is it? [Archive] - Page 2

Peter Wilson

Aug 5, 2008, 05:51 AM

Even the most "righteous sinner" is unlean and detestable before God... and I'm sure we all have told our share of lies.... so I wonder how we can get our names in the book with the sinful state we're in.... see what I'm getting at?

Scott, you should put your left hand up to your ear when somebody tells you something, otherwise it will just be "in one ear and out the other" all over again.
I am seated in Heavenly places NOW, in Christ, and if you are "in Christ," then so are you.
But if you are not, that is if you think that Jesus didn't finish the work He came to do, then you are not "in Christ".
The Christian faith is founded upon the rock of Jesus, that we believe that He is the son of God, who gave His life for us, to pay for our sins and give us eternal life.
I actually believe that, if you don't have "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", (Collossians 1)
then you don't have eternal life.
On the day of judgement, and your name isn't found in the Lamb's book of life, then that's when you find out what the "Second death" means.
I don't believe that you will burn for eternity in the lake of fire, I think you will be terminated.
But on the other hand, those that HAVE received Christ now, and turn away to go back into continued sin, like a dog returns to his vomit, I believe they WILL be in that lake of fire forever, as they HAVE eternal life.
If Christ died, I consider myself dead, if He rose from the dead, I consider myself risen.
Romans 8
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

:cool:

rhadsen

Aug 5, 2008, 08:38 AM

If we are judged at the moment of death, what about the "Day of judgement",

Which is one of the reasons Pete, why 1 Corinthians 3:15 is a non-starter regarding purgatory. It's talking about the day of judgment - the great day of the Lord, not the day of our death. Have you noticed that neither of the folks who brought up 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7 as texts supporting purgatory can discuss either verse and tell us why, from the text itself, or it's literal or historical context these verses are most likely referring to purgatory?

I've asked Scott a couple of times to please work with the text and explain why he feels that it supports purgatory, but he hasn't answered yet. Maybe he hasn't seen my question. I'm hoping that he gets a chance to share how he has come up with his view.

Rob

N0help4u

Aug 5, 2008, 08:44 AM

Exactly, I have pointed out several times within the past few days that they are confusing the Judgment day of works and crowns with the Purgatory thing.

cozyk

Aug 5, 2008, 09:42 AM

AGREE with you, NOhelp4u.. Such an important part of not teaching falsely. Keeping Chirst Holy, and Above All Else believing in His worthyness in body and blood.

Bible Speak is so unclear to me. "believing his worthyness in body and blood." What in the world does that mean?

Isaiah 42:3A A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory

I don't get any of this. Makes no sense.

To My servant say's God: " I " will trim your wick so that "My" Light of Truth shines bright and "I" have victory.. Amen to that!
Okay?? :confused:

Tj3

Aug 5, 2008, 11:54 AM

Luther found a phrase that worked for him, and it works for me too -- "simul iustus et peccator," at the same time righteous and a sinner. Christ's righteousness has been lovingly wrapped around me, but not because of any merit of my own. As long as I live, I am caught in this world, guilty of wrongdoing, a sinner. I wake up each morning with a clean slate in front of me--and how long does that slate remain clean???? Until I get dressed, or maybe only until I stand up out of bed? Only "in Christ" and because of His work of redemption am I righteous and counted as one of God's children, and deserving of heaven.

Yes, and as scripture says, it is not our righteousness, but Jesus' righteousness imputed to us.

tsila1777

Aug 5, 2008, 01:26 PM

Peter Wilson,
This is very long, and in this case, my words are in red, but I give many Scriptures and I hope you and others will read it and then go and study for yourselves. I cannot put every Scripture in here, and I am not just putting Scripture together to “prove” my point of view. Take it for what it is worth to you.

I agree with just about everything you said.

You said: I don't believe that you will burn for eternity in the lake of fire, I think you will be terminated.

However, I believe that those who do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus will live forever in the lake of fire. That is why it is so important, so urgent that we spread the gospel through the whole world. Think about it: God gave His only Son; they rejected Him. God does not send them to Hell; He has done everything He can to save them. But they refused.

Eternal life, in this case, does not just mean to live forever. We were raised with Jesus, we have eternal life now.
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 3:14-16 (New King James Version)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15: that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context#fen-NKJV-26130a)] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=5&verse=24&version=45)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternalAmplified Bible (AMP)
I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life. (So that when death and hell give up them that are in them…we will not be there)life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life. (So that when death and hell give up them that are in them…we will not be there)John 5:24 (King James Version) 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24 (King James Version) 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

King James Version (KJV) 1 John5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

King James Version (KJV) 1 John5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have
King James Version (KJV) Rev. 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:(that is those of us who first believed…we are unique, a peculiar people unto God, there has never been another people like us, nor will ever be again.) on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years , and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. We shall reign with Him a thousand years on earth. New Jerusalem is the Beloved City where Jesus shall rule the nations. We are not the dead; we are priests of God and of Christ.
deceive the nations

of the earth
Rev 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. That were deceived. which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: compassed the camp of the saints(us) about, and the beloved city
9And they went up on the breadth came down from God out of heaven, and (is this yet another resurrection? Who are the 'dead' here, I believe those who were alive after Christ died and denied Him.): and fire the dead, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
books
12And I saw another book, small and great, stand before God; and the and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. were opened: and the book of life was opened here to prove they did have a choice, that God is fair and just, and they will see our names there, those of us who tried to warn them. was opened, which is the book of life: (Revelation 20:13-15 (King James Version))(another resurrection,)
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (this is not us who believe on Jesus now, remember the second death has no power on us)

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus told us to rejoice that our names are written in the book of life.

ScottRC

Aug 5, 2008, 05:23 PM

Obviously you felt it supported purgatory, otherwise you wouldn't have brought up 1 Peter 1:7.
I'm not sure what your objection is about...

1 Pet 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

It's simply an example of our faith being "tested by fire"... and reading this verse in the allegorical sense, I really don't know what point you are trying to make... maybe you believe I'm trying to offer each verse as a literal "proof text" for Purgatory... if so, please remember I'm not Protestant and don't have a "sola scriptura" theology. Our theology does not rely on individual "proof texts", but because of the polyvalent nature of the Bible, proper exegesis involves an extensive and critical interpretation using many verses and the historical teaching of the Christian faith.

N0help4u

Aug 5, 2008, 05:41 PM

So you are not saying that it is referring to purgatory?

Tj3

Aug 5, 2008, 05:43 PM

I'm not sure what your objection is about...

1 Pet 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

It's simply an example of our faith being "tested by fire"... and reading this verse in the allegorical sense, I really don't know what point you are trying to make... maybe you believe I'm trying to offer each verse as a literal "proof text" for Purgatory...

Then if you agree that it is not purgatory, then it has no place in this discussion. In any case, being tested is definitely not purgatory. We have a great deal in scripture about our faith being tested, for example:

Heb 11:17-19
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
NKJV

Odd that this one speaks of faith being tested by fire (and it does not refer to after death), and your other verses speaks of works being burned by fire if they are not done for the Lord, but absolutely none say anything about men being burned by fire - except those who end up in the lake of fire/hell.

if so, please remember I'm not Protestant and don't have a "sola scriptura" theology.

I am not protestant but I do believe in the Biblical sola scriptura doctrine.

Our theology does not rely on individual "proof texts", but because of the polyvalent nature of the Bible, proper exegesis involves an extensive and critical interpretation using many verses and the historical teaching of the Christian faith.

Christian theology is based upon scripture.

arcura

Aug 5, 2008, 07:55 PM

tsila1777
Believe as you wish.
On my case I know that Purgatory exists.
It is my faith and the teaching of The Church that tell me so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

arcura

Aug 5, 2008, 08:02 PM

Lilmkiss

Aug 5, 2008, 08:19 PM

All I am going to say to this is that the gulf he is talking about is about the rich man and pour man. The rich man had all the comforts of the earth and he did not believe in the coming of Christ yet the pour man with sores and boils begging him for money did believe in the coming of Jesus. Later on when both men where dead the rich man in Hades looked across the great gulf and saw the same man sleeping comfortably untroubled on the other side. This is where the first idea of pergitory came from. I hope this is an answer the that question. And lastly I want all of you that believe in pergitory to post the verses because I can tell you there is 0% proof in the bible to prove that Purgatory exists and again a nother question that has to be answered here.

The church has 0 power, except what God gives it and, if you read the bible, it says that the church is where 1 or more people are gathered in Gods name, and we have no athority to say who goes to hell or to heaven. So therefore the chruch has 0 power in this respect and again further proving that if God forbid Purgatory exists then, nothing we do here or others do for us would get us out any faster. It was just a way to suck people dry by unholy men in the catholic church plain and flat history read up on martin luther.

Wondergirl

Aug 5, 2008, 08:20 PM

arcura

Aug 5, 2008, 08:53 PM

tsila1777

Aug 5, 2008, 09:04 PM

tsila1777
Believe as you wish.
On my case I know that Purgatory exists.
It is my faith and the teaching of The Church that tell me so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Dear Arcura,

I understand that you believe what your church tells you to believe.

I believe what God and His Word tell me. That is why I believe that I am as righteous as I can be... I have been made the righteousness of God in the spirit man. How can I get any more righteous than that? That is not something that I did, but Christ did for me. It is done!

This body of flesh will not enter Heaven. But, my spirit, the real me, is complete in Jesus. He did all that was required to solve my sin problem. Christ in me, the hope of glory. His Blood was enough to cleanse me from all sin. It has never lost its power and it never will. It still cleanses me, my sins are forgiven, and God does not even remember them any more. He does remember His Son’s sacrifice for me.

The Name, the Blood, the sacrifice, the resurrection, the victory, the salvation is all by GRACE, it is a gift of God; even the faith to believe is a gift from God, all glory goes to God. There is nothing more for me to do except trust and believe.

That is what I believe. That is what the Word of God says. If my church told me the sky was green, I would not blindly follow that word. I do not worship or serve my church. I serve God.

If you believe that you are going to go to purgatory/hell, then maybe you will, dear one, but I have never read where anyone gets out again, except for judgment, and then they go back...

Peace and love in Christ

pnkrkmama

Aug 5, 2008, 09:08 PM

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob
Purgatory is non-existant. It was created by the catholic church to get money from its partitioners. The preist claimed that they would get their relatives out of purgatory faster if they paid the church a certain amount of money. Purgatory is NOT biblical.

tsila1777

Aug 5, 2008, 09:11 PM

Arcura,
I read your post to wondergirl, cute, but your logic is off, that is beside the point.

Question, and I don't mean to piggyback, as I was once accused of doing... but where did you get the word purgatory from, since it is not in the Bible?

Tj3

Aug 5, 2008, 10:11 PM

Tj3,
Wrong again.
Posting that list of verses from the bible Does show that Purgatory exist and just because you hate Catholic teaching does nit change that fact one bit.
What your post does show is that you personally interpret the bible to say what you want it to say and not what it clearly dies say.
I have God's holy Church to guide me but you do not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

False accusations does nothing to enhance your position. I do not, and never have hated Catholics. What I do hate is false teachings which lead people astray.

Maybe if you dropped your bitterness towards mwe and others who disagree with you, we could have the opportunity to have constructive dialogue about our differences. As I have told you many times, I look forward to that day when you bury the hatchet.

The door remain open for you and will never close.

Tom

Tj3

Aug 5, 2008, 10:15 PM

C'mon, Fred. I am not a Catholic hater. There is no biblical support for Purgatory.

Wondergirl,

Fred has shown bitterness and hatred for me (and some others who disagree with him) for several years now. I have offered to have private discussions with him where we could discuss whatever it is that has caused that bitterness but he has refused every offer. Nonetheless, I continue to hope that Fred will one day accept my offer.

As I have told him many times, the door is always open and I will never close the door. No matter how Fred or anyone else might treat me, I will not hold a grudge, and always look forward to constructive discussions, and continue to hope that Fred and others will be with us in eternity praising the one true God.

Tom

Wondergirl

Aug 5, 2008, 11:12 PM

Note that the word :"Wondergirl" is not in the bible.
Of course it isn't. I made it up. Why would it be in the Bible?

ScottRC

Aug 5, 2008, 11:49 PM

so you are not saying that it is referring to purgatory?
In a literal sense, no... but like I mentioned earlier, I offer it as allegorical support for the doctrine.

What I find interesting is that I offer Scriptural support and we seemed to be focused on this ONE verse... what about the other?

Or maybe you folks would like more:
A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won't get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead's behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul's use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus' statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

ScottRC

Aug 5, 2008, 11:51 PM

Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

ScottRC

Aug 5, 2008, 11:52 PM

The Early Church's Belief in Purgatory
"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just." Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).

"Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd...He taught me…faithful writings...These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius." Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190).

"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease...But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment." The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202).

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

"All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich...Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.' Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand 'the prison' pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret 'the uttermost farthing' to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides." Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).

"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211).

"[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead...Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216).

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

"For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

"Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished." Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).

"The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307).

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9,10 (c. A.D. 350).

"I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest." Basil, Homilies on the Psalms, 7:2 (ante A.D. 370).

"Lay me not with sweet spices: for this honour avails me not; Nor yet incense and perfumes: for the honour benefits me not. Burn sweet spices in the Holy Place: and me, even me, conduct to the grave with prayer. Give ye incense to God: and over me send up hymns. Instead of perfumes of spices: in prayer make remembrance of me." Ephraem, His Testament (ante A.D. 373).

"Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their [the dead's] behalf...it is useful, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily." Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 375).

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

"Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints....I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him." Ambrose, De obitu Theodosii, PL 16:1397 (A.D. 395).

"Other husbands scatter on the graves of their wives violets, roses, lilies, and purple flowers; and assuage the grief of their hearts by fulfilling this tender duty. Our dear Pammachius also waters the holy ashes and the revered bones of Paulina, but it is with the balm of almsgiving." Jerome, To Pammachius, Epistle 66:5 (A.D. 397).

Can we go through one by one?:D

arcura

Aug 6, 2008, 12:28 AM

Tj3,
I have told you many times that I first believe the bible then The Church.
The bible is what lead me on the road to Rome away from a Catholic bashing Protestantism.
Why you will not accept that I do not know, but you continue to twist what I say.
Why you have the bad habit of twisting what people say I also do not know but you have been doing it for years.
That is but one of the reasons I continually pray for you.
And I do wish you much peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Wondergirl

Aug 6, 2008, 12:31 AM

Can we go through one by one?
So, in effect, you do not believe Jesus' death on the cross was good enough to take away mankind's sin permanently and make us right with God. It just isn't possible, you think. No one would do something like that and take away our sin completely. Certainly we have to DO something, suffer something, endure something ourselves to get rid of the rest of our sin. Is that what you're saying?

arcura

Aug 6, 2008, 01:19 AM

Wondergirl,
Yes, Jesus can and does forgive our sins, but we still are stained by our sinful nature.
Our tendency to sin even with our sin forgiven is what keeps us impure.
As we live our lives we human morals continue to sin even though we may struggle to not do so. That is our nature. It is what keeps us impure.
Jesus forgive our sins in the manner that we forgive others. One or more sins at a time as we confess them and ask for fogiveness.
It is all there in the gospels.
We must believe and do as the entire gospels instuct us; not dwell on bits and pieces of it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

.

tsila1777

Aug 6, 2008, 01:24 AM

That is what they are saying, Wondergirl. But the Word of God says, Jesus redeemed us, and the He Who has begun a good work in us will finish it until the Day of Jesus Christ.

Jesus did all the work, and God gets all the glory and I get the victory because I believe.

rhadsen

Aug 6, 2008, 04:00 AM

I'm not sure what your objection is about....

1 Pet 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

It's simply an example of our faith being "tested by fire"... and reading this verse in the allegorical sense, I really don't know what point you are trying to make.... maybe you believe I'm trying to offer each verse as a literal "proof text" for Purgatory... if so, please remember I'm not Protestant and don't have a "sola scriptura" theology. Our theology does not rely on individual "proof texts", but because of the polyvalent nature of the Bible, proper exegesis involves an extensive and critical interpretation using many verses and the historical teaching of the Christian faith.

Scott,

What I'm objecting to is that you say this verse is speaking of purgatory, but to make it say that, you have to rip it from it's historical and literary context and interpret it "allegorically." I'm sure that I'm going to sound cynical, but going the allegorical route sounds pretty convenient for you. I know that sounds rude, but that is the only way that I can think to say it. I do apologize if I offend you by saying that.

Having said the above however, doesn't it bother you Scott that the two texts that the Catholic Catechism refers to in the section dealing with purgatory (1030 and 1031 if I recall correctly footnote #607) which one would imagine would be the clearest Biblical texts available, have to be interpreted allegorically to make them support purgatory as defined by that same church?

What clues from the text of 1 Peter 1:7 determine that Peter is speaking to us allegorically? How do we know that he isn't speaking allegorically in 1 Peter 1:14, or 1 Peter 2:11?

As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. (1 Peter 1:14)

Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. (1 Peter 2:11)

Rob

Peter Wilson

Aug 6, 2008, 06:07 AM

However, I believe that those who do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus will live forever in the lake of fire. That is why it is so important, so urgent that we spread the gospel through the whole world. Think about it: God gave His only Son; they rejected Him. God does not send them to Hell; He has done everything He can to save them. But they refused.

Eternal life, in this case, does not just mean to live forever. We were raised with Jesus, we have eternal life now.

Sorry Tsila, you must have mis-understood me.
I know that those that have accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, have eternal life now. But where does it say that those that are not "Born again" have eternal life.
Jesus said in John 3 -

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?
11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
14Just as Moses lifted the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted,
15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Also, I believe, but will willingly stand corrected, if any-one can show me that the second death, means eternal life, even in everlasting torment and suffering.
The angels are eternal beings, they will be in eternal torment, man is not, unless he has the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 19

The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

They that miss the first resurection, e.g. not born again believers, or those that have turned away from God, will be judges on their works.
Jesus even said that we would be judges by every word that comes out of our mouth!
In Romans 2 it says,

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I agree with you, that those that are Christ's now, have already been judged, and have paid the penalty for their sins by Jesus death on the cross.
If we died for our sin, in Jesus death, then we have risen also with Him, and are now eternal beings.
The second death has no power over us.

I think I answered your query, perhaps not, let me know.
Bless you heaps,
Peter.:)

cozyk

Aug 6, 2008, 06:13 AM

Tj3,
Wrong again.
Posting that list of verses from the bible Does show that Purgatory exist and just because you hate Catholic teaching does nit change that fact one bit.
What your post does show is that you personally interpret the bible to say what you want it to say and not what it clearly dies say.
I have God's holy Church to guide me but you do not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Personally interpret the bible?? Isn't that what the church does, different faiths do, and interpreters have done with translating through the ages? Who is to say that any interpretation is THE original intent. The statement " I have Gods Holy Church to guide me but you do not.
Wow, that sounds SO "lofty". Just the kind of thing that turns people off to religion.

rhadsen

Aug 6, 2008, 08:34 AM

In a literal sense, no..... but like I mentioned earlier, I offer it as allegorical support for the doctrine.

What I find interesting is that I offer Scriptural support and we seemed to be focused on this ONE verse.... what about the other?

Or maybe you folks would like more:
A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won't get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead's behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul's use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus' statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Scott,

A) Now are these verses supporting purgatory directly, or do they have to be interpreted "allegorically" to see purgatory in them?

B) Is it fair to say that you are admitting that not only is the word "purgatory" not in the Bible, but also that those verses which you believe support the notion of purgatory must be interpreted "allegorically" in order to do so?

Rob

N0help4u

Aug 6, 2008, 08:41 AM

NOTE: the verses above have not only the scripture but the 'interpretation' of purgatory added which IS NOT stated in the Bible.

sndbay

Aug 6, 2008, 11:02 AM

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Scott let me point one fact out from what you have offered as the church authority of your belief, and the differnce of scripture being the Word of God.

You have stated the Protestants do not believe in purgatory but they believe Christ washed us from our sins. The very scripture you refer: Revelation 21:27 tells us that anything unclean shall not enter heaven.. That is Fact... Now read the scripture as it is written, Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Scott the scripture says in no wise shall enter... no wise means no way.. not purgatory, not no wise... Are you thinking that the church can offer something more to that which is written?. Or for those that can not have?? The scripture says {{{but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life}}} That tells me only Christ' book, who He has given life..

How can the church teach that they offer something more.. will the church say they save people in this manner? Clearly this is not what the Bible says. You have offered a false teaching that is against what scripture says.

Read it Scott Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The church can not offer anything which The Word of God has already stated can not enter. Christ is the Saviour..

ScottRC

Aug 6, 2008, 11:09 AM

So, in effect, you do not believe Jesus' death on the cross was good enough to take away mankind's sin permanently and make us right with God.
I have stated this is not what I believe twice on this thread... your continued distortion is not helping this discussion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A) Now are these verses supporting purgatory directly, or do they have to be interpreted "allegorically" to see purgatory in them?
They have to be interpreted, like all Bibles verses...

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it:
1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture".
2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church".
3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.

B) Is it fair to say that you are admitting that not only is the word "purgatory" not in the Bible, but also that those verses which you believe support the notion of purgatory must be interpreted "allegorically" in order to do so?
Certainly, just like many of the core teachings of our faith such as the Trinity...

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 11:18 AM

Tj3,
I have told you many times that I first believe the bible then The Church.

Then we should be able to discuss what the Bible says without bringing in your denomination's interpretation.

The bible is what lead me on the road to Rome away from a Catholic bashing Protestantism.

Fred, in our past discussions, anytime aanyone disagreed with Roman Catholic doctruines, you called it "bashing", and then accuse people of "twisting". Why not simply discuss respectfully?

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 11:21 AM

The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory

This would not influence me at all because it is not the beliefs of men upon which I establish my doctrine, but on the teachings found in God's word. Men may err, God's word will not.

lobogray1

Aug 6, 2008, 11:22 AM

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 11:23 AM

Purification After Death By Fire

Why keep repeating the same passages which have been addressedA? Why not discuss them rather than continually tell us that they say something which which have pointed out is contrary to the context?

N0help4u

Aug 6, 2008, 11:27 AM

Nothing I have read so far proves purification after death in a place called purgatory.
Your fire is here or your fire is in the Judgment NO where does it indicate a fiery place called purgatory without reading into meaning to make it say what the Vatican wants you to believe.

sndbay

Aug 6, 2008, 01:01 PM

There are 3 verses in scripture that speak of God as the consuming fire. Each time refer. God's anger being pushed by the ignorance of man.

The first Deu 9:3 is the tribe of Anakins which were known as the tribe of "Giants" those born of woman by the falling angels = sons of god.
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

God was brought to show His anger upon them, and did away with those Anakins that were with the children of Israel.

[B]Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God [is] he which goeth over before thee; [as] a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Jos 11:22 There was none of the Anakims left in the land of the children of Israel: only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, there remained.

2. The second time again God finds evil being done, and He again is refer as the consuming fire in Due 4:24

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu 4:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt [yourselves], and make a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

3. The third time is a warning us not to anger God, but to serve Him with love, as He love us.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

So heed the warning God is a consuming fire. And God hates lies.

There is no 2nd Saviour in scripture.. no church should claim differently.

Christ is our Saviour

rhadsen

Aug 6, 2008, 01:12 PM

Scott,

That’s not what I asked. I asked:

A) Now are these verses supporting purgatory directly, or do they have to be interpreted "allegorically" to see purgatory in them?

I did not ask if Bible verses had to be interpreted. Please answer the question above.

I also asked:

B) Is it fair to say that you are admitting that not only is the word "purgatory" not in the Bible, but also that those verses which you believe support the notion of purgatory must be interpreted "allegorically" in order to do so?

You answered:

Certainly, just like many of the core teachings of our faith such as the Trinity....

Once again, you are not answering the question that I asked. Secondly, I don’t have to interpret texts that support the Trinity in an “allegorical” fashion to defend the view that the Trinity is a Biblical idea. However, it appears that you have to interpret the texts that you claim support the notion of purgatory in an “allegorical” fashion to make them fit any notion of purgatory. See the difference? Could you please answer the question?

You also may have missed my earlier question:

Scott,

What I'm objecting to is that you say this verse is speaking of purgatory, but to make it say that, you have to rip it from its historical and literary context and interpret it "allegorically." I'm sure that I'm going to sound cynical, but going the allegorical route sounds pretty convenient for you. I know that sounds rude, but that is the only way that I can think to say it. I do apologize if I offend you by saying that.

Having said the above however, doesn't it bother you Scott that the two texts that the Catholic Catechism refers to in the section dealing with purgatory (1030 and 1031 if I recall correctly footnote #607) which one would imagine would be the clearest Biblical texts available, have to be interpreted allegorically to make them support purgatory as defined by that same church?

What clues from the text of 1 Peter 1:7 determine that Peter is speaking to us allegorically? How do we know that he isn't speaking allegorically in 1 Peter 1:14, or 1 Peter 2:11?

As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. (1 Peter 1:14)

Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. (1 Peter 2:11)

Rob

ScottRC

Aug 6, 2008, 01:25 PM

Once again, you are not answering the question that I asked.
I'll try again...

Yes.

Secondly, I don't have to interpret texts that support the Trinity in an “allegorical” fashion to defend the view that the Trinity is a Biblical idea.
That's certainly a matter of opinion...

You also may have missed my earlier question:
What clues from the text of 1 Peter 1:7 determine that Peter is speaking to us allegorically? How do we know that he isn't speaking allegorically in 1 Peter 1:14, or 1 Peter 2:11?
Already answered.

Peace be with you.

ScottRC

Aug 6, 2008, 04:23 PM

Hi rob... I pray you are well... now that I have a few minutes, I'd like to respond a bit more to your post:

What I'm objecting to is that you say this verse is speaking of purgatory, but to make it say that, you have to rip it from its historical and literary context and interpret it "allegorically." I'm sure that I'm going to sound cynical, but going the allegorical route sounds pretty convenient for you. I know that sounds rude, but that is the only way that I can think to say it. I do apologize if I offend you by saying that.
Well, to be clear... I don't believe I EVER stated that the verse in question is "speaking of purgatory" or that it was a "literal proof-text for purgatory"... or ANYTHING of the kind.

I actually went out of my way to try to explain Catholic (and Orthodox FYI) theology and the fact that (unlike modern Protestant exegesis) we don't need a literal Bible verse to determine divine revelation.

And I don't think it's rude at all... just a bit unfair... but maybe you do take the Bible 100% literal, otherwise I think we'd both have to admit that our respective theologies use the "sense" of Scripture that best suits what it believes to be the truth. For instance, we take verses in John about the body and blood of Christ as LITERAL... while most outside the historical Christian Churches do not... so I don't think it will serve you well to go down this road... and since I offered DOZENS of other Bible verses as what I believe is support for this doctrine, I could simply retract 1 Pet from the conversation and be no worse for the wear... know what I mean?

Having said the above however, doesn't it bother you Scott that the two texts that the Catholic Catechism refers to in the section dealing with purgatory (1030 and 1031 if I recall correctly footnote #607) which one would imagine would be the clearest Biblical texts available, have to be interpreted allegorically to make them support purgatory as defined by that same church?
No, it does not bother me at all... because (for the third time) Catholic theology does not rely on Scripture alone to determine orthodoxy, but both Scripture AND Tradition... and like my earlier post should make clear: since the early church, purgatory was a concept that was considered to be authentic Christian teaching.

And if you look again at the footnotes for this teaching, I'm sure you remember #606= Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.

Council of Lyons II (1274)
We believe... that the souls, by the purifying compensation are purged after death.
Council of Florence
Repeated the Council of Lyons II.
Council of Trent (1545-1563)
We constantly hold that purgatory exists, and that the souls of the faithful there detained are helped by the prayers of the faithful.

One of the main reasons the Protestant reformers removed books from the Bible is that the doctrine of Purgatory is quite evident in one:
2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

In conclusion, the constant faith of the Church affirms the belief in purgatory... from the Bible and from the earliest of times, the Fathers of the Church taught the existence of purgatory: Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220?), Origen (Alexandria, 185 - 254?), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258), Ambrose (Tier, 340 - 397), Augustine (Numidia, 354 - 430), Basil (Caesarea, 329 - 379), Gregory of Nazianzus (in Cappadocia, 329 - 389), John Chrysostom (Antioch, 349 - 407), Gregory the Great (Rome, 540 - 604), and many others.

And my personal belief is that I'd rather look to the 2,000 years of Christian teaching to determine orthodoxy, rather than my PERSONAL interpretation of Scripture... but I respect your right to search for the truth in the way your conscience leads you.

God bless.

cozyk

Aug 6, 2008, 06:55 PM

WOW!! Reading the previous post about whose interpretation is the RIGHT interpretation is exactly what is wrong with putting SO MUCH store in the bible. Why not just live your best life to honor the god you believe in. What difference does it make if there is a purgatory? Is it going to change the way you lead your life? None of us KNOW exactly what will happen
When we die. And what we think we know depends on interpretation. Religion has been the cause of wars throughout time and in reading some of these post, it shows why.

arcura

Aug 6, 2008, 07:17 PM

Tj3,
It seem to be useless to discuss the existence of Purgatory here.
Those who believe in it do so firmly, the same for those who do not believe.
The bible verses used in the discussion are interpreted differently by both sides.
In my case I know Purgatory exists.
I also know that the day will come when you will also.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 07:42 PM

Well, to be clear... I don't believe I EVER stated that the verse in question is "speaking of purgatory" or that it was a "literal proof-text for purgatory"... or ANYTHING of the kind.

I actually went out of my way to try to explain Catholic (and Orthodox FYI) theology and the fact that (unlike modern Protestant exegesis) we don't need a literal Bible verse to determine divine revelation.

The problem is that there is no scripture which speaks of purgatory. I note however that you have conceded that Cathoplic and Orthodox theology is not based on the Bible.

One of the main reasons the Protestant reformers removed books from the Bible

Why do you keep repeating this false statement? As I pointed out, even the New Catholic encyclopedia disagrees with you. The Roman Catholic Church added books at the council of Trent.

2 Maccabees 12:42-46

You do know that even internal evidence to the Maccabees says that it is not inspired text, don't you?

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

Clearly even the writer of Maccabees cl;aimed that the source was him alone and not the Holy Spirit. Therefore to base doctrine on this book, or to claim that it is canonical is to based doctrine on the fallible words and beliefs of a man.

In conclusion, the constant faith of the Church affirms the belief in purgatory... from the Bible and from the earliest of times, the Fathers of the Church taught the existence of purgatory: Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220?), Origen (Alexandria, 185 - 254?), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258), Ambrose (Tier, 340 - 397), Augustine (Numidia, 354 - 430), Basil (Caesarea, 329 - 379), Gregory of Nazianzus (in Cappadocia, 329 - 389), John Chrysostom (Antioch, 349 - 407), Gregory the Great (Rome, 540 - 604), and many others.

And once again, you use men for your doctrinal basis, at least one of which was declared a heretic in his own time.

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 07:44 PM

Tj3,
It seem to be useless to discuss the existence of Purgatory here.
Those who believe in it do so firmly, the same for those who do not believe.
The bible verses used in the discussion are interpreted differently by both sides.

Right - one side lets the Bible speak for itself, the other side lets men in their church interpret ti for them. There is no chance of coming to terms as long as we have a different basis for doctrine.

arcura

Aug 6, 2008, 07:49 PM

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 07:50 PM

WOW!! Reading the previous post about whose interpretation is the RIGHT interpretation is exactly what is wrong with putting SO MUCH store in the bible. Why not just live your best life to honor the god you believe in.

Scripture warns about men doing only what they think is right.

Deut 12:7-9
8 You shall not at all do as we are doing here today--every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes--
NKJV

What difference does it make if there is a purgatory?

Huge difference. If purgatory exists, then it is a different gospel, a gospel that requires men to do something to merit payment of their own sins, something scripture says is not possible. Indeed, it become a different gospel and scripture has very strong words about messing around with the gospel:

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

Is it going to change the way you lead your life? None of us KNOW exactly what will happen

If you follow a different gospel, it affects your relationship with God.

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 07:51 PM

Tj3,
You say that there is no Scripture that speaks of Purgatory.
I say there is and provided them.
I say there is no Scripture passages that speak of the rapture.
You say there is.
So it goes.
I hope you get mu point.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I get your point - you follow your denomination's teachings, and I follow the Bible. When I have a few minutes, I will post once again a rebuttal to your copy and past of that website.

ScottRC

Aug 6, 2008, 08:06 PM

You say that there is no Scripture that speaks of Purgatory.
I say there is and provided them.
I say there is no Scripture passages that speak of the rapture.
You say there is.
So it goes.
I hope you get mu point.
Good point Fred... it seems that some don't see that without an authority to decide what is orthodox and what is not, all we would have is a history of these kinds of arguments and no Bible. There would be BILLIONS of different "gospels", each based upon the individual readers personal opinons... hardly seems like God would send His Son to die and then leave no way to determine the TRUTH.

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 08:10 PM

Good point Fred... it seems that some don't see that without an authority to decide what is orthodox and what is not, all we would have is a history of these kinds of arguments and no Bible.

The difference is that our authority is what god commanded - God's word, the Bible.

Your authority is the opinion and interpretations of men.

Read what God has to say about this:

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 08:56 PM

How many times must I post these bible passages that indicate that Purgatory exists?
Please look them up and ponder them.

0kay Fred, here we go. Rebuttals once again to these references that you copied and pasted off someone else's site (without credit, I note!)

Lk 12:59

Let's look at the context:

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

1 Pet 1:7

1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.

Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom. Note that the suffering referred to here was in the flesh, not after death.

Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Col 1:24

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

First, this is an entirely different topic and has zero to do with purgatory. Second, we cannot take scripture out of context.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

There is one sins for which we need not pray because the is no forgiveness.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

arcura

Aug 6, 2008, 09:25 PM

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 09:30 PM

Tj3

Aug 6, 2008, 09:32 PM

Good point Fred... it seems that some don't see that without an authority to decide what is orthodox and what is not, all we would have is a history of these kinds of arguments and no Bible.

That is why He (not your denomination) gave us scripture:

2 Tim 3:14-16
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

There would be BILLIONS of different "gospels", each based upon the individual readers personal opinons... hardly seems like God would send His Son to die and then leave no way to determine the TRUTH.

That is why we are to use scripture to interpret truth for us:

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

As the Bereans did:

Acts 17:10-12
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
NKJV

And not have men interpret it for us:

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
NKJV

NKJV

Lilmkiss

Aug 6, 2008, 09:34 PM

Wondergirl,
Please note that that was address ti Tj3 who is Tom Smith whose many negative posts and teachings about the Catholic Church show that he hates many of The Churches teachings.
And I beg to differ about the bible's indication that Purgatory does exist.
Several verses so indicate.
Yes the word Purgatory is not in the bible.
If you take the stand that Purgatory does not exist then there are thousands of words that are not in the bible and therefore do not exist.
Note that the word :"Wondergirl" is not in the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

And Jesus said " I am the WAY! the TRUTH! and the LIFE! NO one comes to the Father but through ME!"

So if you are truly a Christian then this very verse disproves the idea of us working to heven or others good works bringing them to heven simply because there is no other way to God but through what Jesus did end of story people Purgatory does not exist.

Note: the gramer isn't right but I put it in there to make a point:)
This is what Jesus himself said and if we need Purgatory then that means Jesus lied so my question to you is Did Jesus lie?

Lilmkiss

Aug 6, 2008, 09:47 PM

arcura

Aug 6, 2008, 09:49 PM

Lilmkiss
Yes, Jesus is the way the truth and the life and the gospels tell us hiw we are to take advantage of that.
That is my being and DOING the things that Jesus and His apostles and His Church tell us to be and do.
It's all in the book The Church via the Holy Spirit gave us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Lilmkiss

Aug 6, 2008, 09:53 PM

You have to be carfull of that because the church is made of men, men lie cheat steal and will do anything for greed I am not saying everyone is like this but man himself is not supposed to be trusted and we are to test everything to scripture

arcura

Aug 6, 2008, 10:19 PM

Lilmkiss,
The Bible tells us that The Church Jesus founded is the pillar and foundation of the truth, It is the bride of Christ and lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness ,
Fred

ScottRC

Aug 6, 2008, 10:21 PM

so if you are truly a Christian then this very verse disproves the idea of us working to heven or others good works bringing them to heven simply because there is no other way to God but through what Jesus did end of story people Purgatory does not exist.
This really does not make any sense... one has nothing to do with the other... Jesus is the Way, nothing about the teaching of Purgatory denies this... I don't think you understand the teaching if that is what you believe.

this is what Jesus himself said and if we need Purgatory then that means Jesus lied so my question to you is Did Jesus lie?
No, Jesus did not lie... that's not possible... but again, you simply don't understand that purgatory does not deny what Christ said.
This might help explain: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Purgatory)

you have to be carfull of that because the church is made of men, men lie cheat steal and will do anything for greed I am not saying everyone is like this but man himself is not supposed to be trusted and we are to test everything to scripture
All you have to do is explain how we (men) are to test everything to scripture without involving men in the process----- and THEN this would make sense.

When you test something to scripture, all you have then is your PERSONAL interpretation of what is contained in Scripture... how is that an objective standard for determining orthodoxy?

arcura

Aug 7, 2008, 12:07 AM

ScottRC.
Excellent post that.
And the link you provided is a great help in providing understanding of Heaven, hell, and Purgatory.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Peter Wilson

Aug 7, 2008, 05:03 AM

ScottRC, the problem with the Catholic church using allegories, is that you believe the allegory itself, instead of the truth that it should be trying to convey.
Lazarus and the rich man, was a parable, to say that the Jews wouldn't even believe if some-one rose from the dead.
This is not about Purgatory, Jesus was foretelling of His resurrection, and that even though He rose from the dead, they wouldn't believe.
The Catholic church has done this for centuries, making it a mystery religion, that is, only those that have been taught in the mysteries of the Church can interpret the meaning, via their allegories.
They literalise (is that a word ?) parables and sayings, that were given to explain a greater truth, that is those allegories or parables given by Jesus or the Holy Spirit, then, they use allegories to explain the literal words of the Bible and so end up with a completely different gospel.
In Mathew 16, when Jesus calls Simon a stone, he was one of the first to believe that Jesus was the Christ, and upon that statement that Jesus is the Christ, is the faith upon which the Church is built, not on Peter, the Church is built on Christ!
If you believe that statement from Jesus proves that Peter was the first Pope, then in verse 23-Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
If Peter is the head of the Catholic church, then he must be satan...

I know this isn't so, but he was listening to the enemy and tried to stop Jesus fulfilling His passion, even though Peter didn't know that he was being used.
Jesus told the spirit that was speaking to Peter's mind to "get behind me", that is, so that spirit would not influence his obedience to God.
The bread and the wine, are symbols of Jesus broken body and shed blood, not the literal body and blood.
We do this to remember Christ's death until he comes.
You would do better to believe in the truth of God's word, see the truth conveyed by His allegories and parables or sayings, not in the allegories or sayings of man.
God will not honour what He hasn't said, you can believe in Purgatory, if you like, but you will never come to the knowledge of the truth if you believe the fables and cleverly invented stories of the Catholic church.
I am just amazed that you can't see it, certainly, the devil has blinded your eyes.
It is just superstitous claptrap, that has grown rich from the selling of indulgences in centuries past and vicously murdered those that would oppose their ideas.
I have heard told, that the catholic church murdered more people in the years of the reformation than both world wars put together.
Read "Fox's book of Martyrs", even as Jesus said of the Jews,
Mathew 23

29"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

30and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

31"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Sounds very similar to Revelation 18
Lament for Babylon
9"And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,
10standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'

11"And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more--

12cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble,

13and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives.

14"The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

15"The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

16saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

17for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!' And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

18and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What city is like the great city?'

19"And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!'

20"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."

21Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

22"And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

23and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

24"And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."

Mystery Babylon is thought to be a picture of the catholic Church, it certainly describes it perfectly.
Rome is even built on seven hills.
Of course, you will find an allegory to evade the truth and follow the lie.
Perhaps I should tell you of the lives of some of the popes, and even the female pope, Pope Joan .
From "The story of Civilization: The Reformation" by Durant, has this account,
During those days, Martin Luther,while still a priest of the papal church, travelled to Rome.
As he caught the first glimpse of the seven hilled city,he fell to the ground and said "Holy Rome, I salute thee".
He had not spent much time there, however, until he saw that Rome was anything but a Holy City.
Iniquity existed among all classes of the clergy.
Priests told indecent jokes and used awful profanity,even during mass.
The papal court was served at supper by twelve naked girls.
"No one can imagine what sins and infamous actions are committed in Rome", he said "they must be seen and heard to be believed. Thus, they are in the habit of saying,"If there is a Hell, Rome is built over it".

sndbay

Aug 7, 2008, 05:36 AM

Tj3,
What make you think that because Purgatory exist there is a different gospel?
It's the same Jesus Christ and what He did for us.
Without Purgatory to cleans souls of their sinful nature very few would get to heaven, only those who had no stain of sinful nature.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred listen to what you say, without purgatory? Then I ask you does this make what Christ did void? It certainly sounds as if you believe Christ was not enough to take away sin.. I rebuke the idea that purgatory is needed, and I believe Christ would rebuke it also.. Christ was enough once and for all.. Scripture does tell us that Truth..

Read scripture.

Mathew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This veil was once what the priest entered to give offerings to God for our sins. This veil was riped wide open by Christ giving us access into heaven.

Hebrews 6:14-20 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation [is] to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Have you not heard the oath God confirmed? Have you also not heard that Christ was made high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec? Perhaps lack of knowledge of what is and who is Melchisedec keeps you igornant of Truth ?

Hebrews 9: 3-5 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

This veil was riped open by Christ... Hebrews 9:6-10 is old time and the scripture explains this being what once was.

Hebrews 9:6-10 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

This next scripture is what NOW is: Hebrews 9:11-12

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

This scripture goes on to say that Christ does not have to do this as often as the priest did do. But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ Our Saviour

Tj3

Aug 7, 2008, 06:28 AM

sndbay

Aug 7, 2008, 06:54 AM

Jesus did not found a denomination but rather, the scripture tells us, he founded the true church, the body of Christ.

AGREE!! God was always the pillar

Scripture will back this up..

Deu 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.

Numbers 14:14 And they will tell [it] to the inhabitants of this land: [for] they have heard that thou LORD [art] among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and [that] thy cloud standeth over them, and [that] thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.

Neh 9:12 Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.

This is written to the church of Philadelphia; Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Christ

sndbay

Aug 7, 2008, 08:08 AM

No, Jesus did not lie... that's not possible... but again, you simply don't understand that purgatory does not deny what Christ said.
This might help explain: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Purgatory)

These statements were made by the Catholic Chruch on the web site Scott offered.

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).
Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.

Faith has a meaning: firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness

So I view in this statement offered by the Catholic Church that the faith of the church equals that of it's own or ownership to it's own firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, and steadness.
AND So the Catholic Church has found truth in their own faith of the church .
________________________________

Where my belief and heart finds faith of scripture, being of Truth.

Acts 14:7 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

OR.. Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

ScottRC

Aug 7, 2008, 09:18 AM

So I view in this statement offered by the Catholic Church that the faith of the church equals that of it's own or ownship to it's own firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, and steadness.
AND So the Catholic Church has found truth in their own faith of the church .
I can help you with the Catholicism, but you're going to have to learn reading comprehension on your own.

"faith of the Church" in this sentence in simply referring to... well... the faith of the Church... I don't know how else to put it... it is not faith IN THE Church... again, I can't explain it any other way--- this is really just basic reading comprehension.:eek:
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ScottRC, the problem with the Catholic church using allegories, is that you believe the allegory itself, instead of the truth that it should be trying to convey.
Okey dokey... thanks for your comments.

sndbay

Aug 7, 2008, 11:18 AM

I can help you with the Catholicism, but you're gonna have to learn reading comprehension on your own.

"faith of the Church" in this sentence in simply refering to ...... well...... the faith of the Church...... I don't know how else to put it...... it is not faith IN THE Church...... again, I can't explain it any other way--- this is really just basic reading comprehension.:eek:
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Scott this is my statement of faith.Ownership to my belief of faith in scripture, in The Word of God, Christ.
Where my belief and heart finds faith in scripture, being of Truth.

The statement made by the Catholic Church was of faith. Ownership to their belief of faith in the church being of truth, in purgatory.
Why do you shy from the statement that the church made? You have been saying in most of your statements that the church and their traditions are what you believe in. It is indeed their ownership to these same traditions.

Tj3

Aug 7, 2008, 11:29 AM

I can help you with the Catholicism, but you're going to have to learn reading comprehension on your own.

Scott, you really need to deal with these ad hominems.

"faith of the Church" in this sentence in simply referring to... well... the faith of the Church... I don't know how else to put it... it is not faith IN THE Church... again, I can't explain it any other way--- this is really just basic reading comprehension.:eek:

That won't cut it. The faith of the RC church is based upon the belief that the RC church is the only valid source of interpretation of truth and doctrine (i.e. the standard of truth and doctrine), and that the tradition of the church which summarizes the beliefs of the RC church leadership over the centuries is required to interpret and understand the faith of the church.

In other words, to have the faith of the RC church, you must have faith in the RC church.

I can validate every statement that I made from RC sources if necessary.

ScottRC

Aug 7, 2008, 11:50 AM

The statement made by the Catholic Church was of faith. Ownership to their belief of faith in the church being of truth, in purgatory.
Why do you shy from the statement that the church made? You have been saying in most of your statements that the church and their traditions are what you believe in. It is indeed their ownership to these same traditions.
Nope not at all... I can't teach you reading comprehension... but I can assure you that my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel... any attempt by you to twist my words to the contrary is simply false.

It may be helpful for a continued discussion for you to leave the beliefs of the Catholic Church TO ME... and stop trying to make assumptions based upon your misreading of something and forming your argument based upon that... it's a logical fallacy called a Straw man.

Peace be with you,
Scott

sndbay

Aug 7, 2008, 01:28 PM

Nope not at all... I can't teach you reading comprehension... but I can assure you that my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel.... any attempt by you to twist my words to the contrary is simply false.

It may be helpful for a continued discussion for you to leave the beliefs of the Catholic Church TO ME.... and stop trying to make assumptions based upon your misreading of something and forming your argument based upon that... it's a logical fallacy called a Straw man.

Peace be with you,
Scott

Quote Scott.. my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel... That's just Wonderful Scott!! Then please note that purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not in the Gospel and Jesus Christ..

My reading and learning comprehension is just fine because I have never said anything other then scripture is of Truth. Nor did I ever say the church was the pillar of foundation... or that The Rock is anything other then Christ..

tsila1777

Aug 7, 2008, 03:35 PM

Matthew 15

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7

5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Galatians 1

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

1 Peter 1:17-19 (King James Version)

17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Colossians 2:7-9 (King James Version)

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 2

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Romans 8:9-11 (King James Version)

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2 Corinthians 5

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Thessalonians 5:22-24

23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Since the God peace has sanctified us wholly and our whole spirit, soul and body shall be preserved blameless, and we have been made the righteousness of God, and we have been redeemed by the precious Blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: and He is now our High Priest, the author and finisher of our salvation: he took all our sins, forgave us, cleansed us…how could there be anything more? Jesus did it all; He is the end of our salvation…the end, to finish means to reach its conclusion. He deserves all our praise and honor He told us to rejoice because our Names are written in the Book of Life. We are His body,and members of His body... He is not going to send a part of His body back to purgatory... He already went to Hell for us and paid the price for our salvation.

It is finished.

ScottRC

Aug 7, 2008, 05:27 PM

quote Scott.. my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel... That's just Wonderful Scott!!
I certainly think it is!!

then please note that purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not in the Gospel and Jesus Christ..
Let's rephrase that... purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not, according to sndbay's PERSONAL OPINION, in the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

So, yet again, unless you can show me why your opinion is somehow divine and infallible, we're back to square one.:D

I don't know why it's not obvious to you and yours when participating in a thread like this how Scripture is not formally sufficient to establish orthodoxy... without authority to decide, all we have is your opinion vs. my opinion... in other words - no way to determine who is right... and this should CLEARLY illustrate the failure of the Protestant heresy.

Peace be with you,
Scott

ScottRC

Aug 7, 2008, 05:30 PM

He is not going to send a part of His body back to purgatory...
Huh?

"Back to purgatory"... what does that mean?

He already went to Hell for us and paid the price for our salvation.
Huh? Part two

What does this have to do with purgatory?

Purgatory is not hell.

:confused:

arcura

Aug 7, 2008, 06:40 PM

sndbay, Of course Jesus can and does wipe away (forgive) sins.
But please note that He did not purge us of our sinful nature.
He said "go and sin no more" which means that the person still has a sinful nature.
The Church Jesus founded had Peter as its first leader.
That is The Church that is the pillar and foundation of the truth no matter what others may believe that is the biblical truth.
It was not a denomination. At that time is was the first and only Church.
It still IS the first now called the Catholic Church.
Believe it for that is the truth, both the bible and history prove that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3

Aug 7, 2008, 07:40 PM

Nope not at all... I can't teach you reading comprehension...

This I logic fallacy called an ad hominem.

but I can assure you that my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel...

It would be more effective to assure us by discussing theology respectfully rather than abusive and telling us to believe whatever you say.

It may be helpful for a continued discussion for you to leave the beliefs of the Catholic Church TO ME...

I am quite familiar with Roman Catholic beliefs. I cannot speak for others, but I will go by what your leaders have defined.

ScottRC

Aug 7, 2008, 07:42 PM

Amen! All with Peter to Jesus through Mary!

Tj3

Aug 7, 2008, 07:45 PM

Let's rephrase that... purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church

So far so good.

and is not, according to sndbay's PERSONAL OPINION, in the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

No, Scott, the truth is that it is simply not in the Bible anywhere. Every passage that you, arcura and other members of your denomination have posted have been soundly refuted. Purgatory is a doctrine specific to your denomination and is not part of the Christian faith as found in God's word (the Bible).

Remember, the Roman catholic faith was built upon the personal opinions of men (tradition and private interpretation)

Tj3

Aug 7, 2008, 07:50 PM

sndbay, Of course Jesus can and does wipe away (forgive) sins.
But please note that He did not purge us of our sinful nature.

If you plan on depending on purging your own sins rather than Jesus, I have bad news for you.

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

No mere man can purge sins.

The Church Jesus founded had Peter as its first leader.

No, Fred, Jesus remained the leader of the church that He founded.

Eph 5:23-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

If your church has tossed jesus out of that role, then I would suggest that you leave that church.

It was not a denomination. At that time is was the first and only Church.

Jesus did not found a denomination, nor was Peter the head of one.

It still IS the first now called the Catholic Church.

Now you say that it is your denomination. Make up your mind.

Lilmkiss

Aug 7, 2008, 08:33 PM

Lilmkiss,
The Bible tells us that The Church Jesus founded is the pillar and foundation of the truth, It is the bride of Christ and lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness ,
Fred

Yes this is true but men claming to be with God may very well just be in it for themselves I don't mean to sound standoffish this is not my intent it is simply all I was trying to say is that one has to test what man says against what it says in the bible in context and this is what we have to be careful of, some might also call these people Sunday christions men make mistakes and I was not arguing the sanctity of the church or the fact that it was Jesus who founded it I 100% agree but I will take no mans word unless it is held up through scriptural evidence as it does say in 1 John 4 and 1 Timothy 1 and this is all I meant to say

arcura

Aug 7, 2008, 09:04 PM

Tj3,
I see that once again you do not believe that the indication of the existence IS in the bible.
You deny the passages that so indicate.
How sad.
You continually say that you believe the bible and then you prove that there are many parts of it that you do not.

Tj3

Aug 7, 2008, 09:10 PM

Tj3,
I see that once again you do not believe that the indication of the existence IS in the bible.
You deny the passages that so indicate.

No, Fred, I refuted that the false claim that any of these have any relationship to the fictional place called purgatory. In deed, if you had taken a moment to actually read the verses rather than copying and pasting them from someone else's website, you would have seen that some are completely un-related to anything remotely close to the topic at hand. Of course you had no rebuttal to anything on that post, nor did your cohorts.

It is message #333 Fred, just so that you cannot claim that you never saw it.

arcura

Aug 7, 2008, 09:18 PM

Tj3

Aug 7, 2008, 09:25 PM

Tj3,
DON'T tell me no.
I've seen you do it many times.
Denying the truth is another of your bad habits.
That is why I continually pray for you even though you have foolishly asked me and others not to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I note that once again Fred, you choose to attack the person rather than deal with what the Bible says.

Those who love truth do not need to fear truth, Fred.

Read message 333 Fred, if you think that you can refute what those verses say in context. Personally, I doubt that you will try. I think that you already know what you won't admit. But feel free to prove me wrong, open your Bible and read what those verse references that you copied and pasted from someone's website actually say.

I notice that you have not posted them again since I posted the context of the passages.

Lilmkiss

Aug 7, 2008, 10:07 PM

arcura
this is a verse that utterly discredits Pergatory

Ephesians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. [B]7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

this verse's alone in the bible shows us that it is not through anything but Christ we are forgiven plain and simple to call yourself a Christian and not even look a the evidence that we have right here is a willfull ignorance and I do hope you will understand if you are to call the Holy spirit a liar because the bible is the inspired word of God Especially the part that I have bolded then you are not a man of god and I do pray that you will come to an understanding that it is Jesus Christ's blood that he shed on the cross that purges us of our sin and not some purgatory Jesus Christ (God the Son) needs no help to purge us of our sins he is God and can do anything.

ScottRC

Aug 7, 2008, 10:52 PM

this is a verse that utterly discredits Pergatory
Nope... doesn't even come close.

this verse's alone in the bible shows us that it is not through anything but Christ we are forgiven
Well, this would only "discredit" purgatory if we taught that we are forgiven through another means besides Christ... and since this is not the case, I'm not sure how this discredits anything but your mistaken assumptions about purgatory.

You might want to read some of the links I provided to educate yourself about the topic before commenting.

"(T)he term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection"
-Servant of God Pope John Paul II

arcura

Aug 7, 2008, 11:08 PM

Wondergirl

Aug 7, 2008, 11:18 PM

ScottRC
Very good suggestion.
Those links help people understand the teaching about Purgatory.
They might not believe it, but at-the-least they can understand it.
I think it is important for Christians to try to understand each other,
That way maybe we can become unified as Jesus asks us to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
I understand people's thinking they need Purgatory somehow, but that would be discounting Jesus' work of redemption that was sufficient, that was "good enough" to bring us back to God. Meanwhile, because of The Fall, we are all caught up in this sinful condition, this sinful world that groans (Rom 8:22) as weeds fill the garden and mosquitos bite during an evening walk and bad things happen to good people--until the Last Day when Jesus returns.

tsila1777

Aug 7, 2008, 11:25 PM

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../amhd_imgs/reputation/reputation_neg.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/scottrc.html#latest_rep)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmkiss
this is a verse that utterly discredits Pergatory

Nope... doesn't even come close.
Quote:
this verse's alone in the bible shows us that it is not through anything but Christ we are forgiven
Well, this would only "discredit" purgatory if we taught that we are forgiven through another means besides Christ... and since this is not the case, I'm not sure how this discredits anything but your mistaken assumptions about purgatory.

But it does seem to be the case, you are taught man's traditions, not God's love, Grace and Mercy and the cleansing Blood of Christ.

Peace and love in Him...

ScottRC

Aug 7, 2008, 11:47 PM

But it does seem to be the case,
What it "seems" to be is not the issue here... you continue to bear false witness and then somehow try to preach about the Gospel... hardly a good example.

not God's love, Grace and Mercy and the cleansing Blood of Christ.

Again, please provide some supporting evidence of this or repent for bearing false witness... :mad:

rhadsen

Aug 8, 2008, 02:30 AM

Hello Scott,

Yes, I’m well. Thanks for asking.

You wrote:

Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

Do you believe this cleansing spiritual fire to be purgatory? If you do, then you did present this verse as supporting purgatory.

and since I offered DOZENS of other Bible verses as what I believe is support for this doctrine, I could simply retract 1 Pet from the conversation and be no worse for the wear... know what I mean?

So you do believe that 1 Peter 1:7 supports the doctrine of purgatory, but in the paragraph above you deny that you ever said so:

Well, to be clear... I don't believe I EVER stated that the verse in question is "speaking of purgatory" or that it was a "literal proof-text for purgatory"... or ANYTHING of the kind.

In order to be able to retract it as support for the doctrine, you would have had to of entered it. So you did say that it supports the doctrine of purgatory (is speaking of purgatory). Secondly, yes you would be worse for the wear. If we go over those verses one by one and then you deny one by one that you ever stated it was speaking of purgatory, or that it does so only allegorically then you’ve provided no positive biblical evidence for purgatory. And that seems to be what you’ll do, if the recent past is any indication.

One of the main reasons the Protestant reformers removed books from the Bible is that the doctrine of Purgatory is quite evident in one:

The fact is Scott, the Deuterocanonicals always had those who didn’t believe they were scripture. The Fathers who had some personal knowledge of Hebrew (such as Origen and Jerome), or who made an effort to learn what the limits of the Jewish canon were (Melito of Sardis) were usually careful not to attribute canonicity to the Apocryphal books. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Amphilochius drew up formal lists of the OT scriptures in which the Apocrypha do not appear. Jerome spoke out for the Hebrew canon. Up to the eve of the Reformation a continuous succession of the more learned Fathers and theologians in the west maintained the distinctive and unique authority of the books of the Hebrew canon. Cardinal Ximenes in the preface to the Complutensian Polyglot edition of the Bible which he edited supported the Hebrew canon. Even Luther’s opponent at Augsburg, Cardinal Cajetan, in 1518 gave an unhesitating approval to the Hebrew canon in his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament, which he dedicated in 1532 to Pope Clement VII.

The text from II Macc speaks of those guilty of idolatry. Since that is a mortal sin, it’s incompatible with your view of purgatory.

Finally, “the fathers” don’t speak of a belief in purgatory. Yes, some of those fathers mentioned believe in purgatory, but others that you referred to (pre Augustine) spoke of prayers for the dead. Prayers for the dead is not equal to a belief in purgatory. That fact is undeniable. The Eastern Orthodox believe in prayers for the dead, but do not believe in purgatory. Therefore to say that Tertullian, Origen, etc. believed in purgatory is not true.

In summation, yes you did present 1 Peter 1:7 in an effort to support your doctrine of purgatory, even though you now deny doing so. Secondly, your claim about Luther and the Apocrypha is an attempt to bolster the idea that the Apocrypha was always viewed as scripture, which it wasn't. Maccabees does nothing to support your doctrine of purgatory, unless those guilty of mortal sins go there - which is something that your church denies. Finally, to say that the fathers such as Tertullian, Origen, and etc., believed in purgatory is false. You are confusing prayers for the dead with a belief in purgatory. So, in short, it seems you aren't making your case.

I’ll look to the teachings of the church as taught 2,000 years ago. That church did not teach purgatory. Of course, you are free to search for the truth in the way your conscience leads you.

Pax,

Rob

sndbay

Aug 8, 2008, 03:05 AM

I certainly think it is!!!

Let's rephrase that .... purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not, according to sndbay's PERSONAL OPINION, in the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

So, yet again, unless you can show me why your personal opinion is somehow divine and infallible, we're back to square one.:D

I don't know why it's not obvious to you and yours when participating in a thread like this how Scripture is not formally sufficient to establish orthodoxy.... without authority to decide, all we have is your opinion vs. my opinion.... in other words - no way to determine who is right.... and this should CLEARLY illustrate the failure of the Protestant heresy.

Peace be with you,
Scott

Because there is nothing in scripture that says Christ was unworthy to save us from sin. Of course, someone might count those who mocked Him and put Him on the cross.

Scott I'd like to ask how the balance of faith in Chirst can be both? Scripture tells us many time Christ is our Saviour and you agree.. Why then would you leave Christ and allow purgatory as your choice. Is it just because it is the faith of the church?

Are you saying there is no way to determine whether Christ was worthy? For He is the right way.

And note that scripture says one can't be double minded.

Let's rephrase that .... purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not, according to sndbay's PERSONAL OPINION, in the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

I'm fine with your statement, and in fact again the statement shows by whom's the faith of purgatory does come from.

ScottRC

Aug 8, 2008, 03:37 AM

Do you believe this cleansing spiritual fire to be purgatory? If you do, then you did present this verse as supporting purgatory.
I thought we already went over this...

So you do believe that 1 Peter 1:7 supports the doctrine of purgatory, but in the paragraph above you deny that you ever said so:
Again... didn't we already do this? Allegorical sense of scripture... ringing any bells or am I losing my mind?:D

If we go over those verses one by one and then you deny one by one that you ever stated it was speaking of purgatory, or that it does so only allegorically then you’ve provided no positive biblical evidence for purgatory.
Define "positive biblical evidence" for me please.

Just FYI:
According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

"It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."(CCC)

The fact is Scott, the Deuterocanonicals always had those who didn’t believe they were scripture.
Fair enough.

Finally, “the fathers” don’t speak of a belief in purgatory.
Something to consider: The Roots of Purgatory (http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp)

I’ll look to the teachings of the church as taught 2,000 years ago. That church did not teach purgatory.
I'm curious, did it need to for a teaching to be orthodox?

Tj3

Aug 8, 2008, 07:14 AM

Well, this would only "discredit" purgatory if we taught that we are forgiven through another means besides Christ.... and since this is not the case, I'm not sure how this discredits anything but your mistaken assumptions about purgatory.

It seems that whenever a cl;aim is made about purgatory, that claim is subsequently denied when scripture is brought forward discrediting that view. It is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Fred said in a recently message that purgatory was a positive doctrine because due to purgatory, people can get to heaven.

Tj3

Aug 8, 2008, 07:16 AM

I think it is important for Christians to try to understand each other,
That way maybe we can become unified as Jesus asks us to be.

Fred,

Christians (those who are saved) are unified through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did not tell us to unify ourselves but rather He prayed to the father that we be unified and the Father provided the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We do not answer prayer.

Tj3

Aug 8, 2008, 07:17 AM

"(T)he term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection"
-Servant of God Pope John Paul II

Nope, not purgatory.

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

rhadsen

Aug 8, 2008, 07:21 AM

It seems that whenever a cl;aim is made about purgatory, that claim is subsequently denied when scripture is brought forward discrediting that view. It is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Fred said in a recently message that purgatory was a positive doctrine because due to purgatory, people can get to heaven.

Thank you Tom. That was the same point that I was trying to make in post #373, but you pointed it out in a more neat and tidy manner. If he is not trying to prove the existence of purgatory by referring to 1 Peter 1:7, then why is he referring to it? Do you understand it? I don't. That is why despite the fact that he is implying he could introduce a whole list of verses into evidence it would be pointless to discuss them with him here. Does he think that we would discuss each of them only to have him deny later that he was trying to prove the existence of purgatory by presenting them?

Secondly, Scott is clearly an educated man. Therefore, he has to know that there is a difference between belief in prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory. One is not the other. To imply otherwise is less than honest. If the poster was uninformed or uneducated, we could look past it. This clearly is not the case with Scott.

I really take offense at the implication that Luther was a lone maverick in not accepting the Apocrypha as scripture. The fact that Scott did not counter the evidence that I offered shows, in my mind anyway, that he knows that Luther was not the first to raise objections to including 2 Maccabees and others in the canon. It's as if he's going to imply that Luther was the first to have a problem with including the Apocrypha in the OT canon and hope that no one here knows the history of the Apocryphal books and their relation to the canon. Once again, as an obviously educated man, he had to have been aware of the information that I presented in post #373 regarding the Apocrypha. Yet, he was hoping that what he was implying about Luther would stick. I don't see that as an honest way to discuss a topic.

Rob

sndbay

Aug 8, 2008, 08:45 AM

ScottRC

Aug 8, 2008, 09:01 AM

If he is not trying to prove the existence of purgatory by referring to 1 Peter 1:7, then why is he referring to it?
Oh vey... you just won't quit with this.

One more time... Catholic theology DOES NOT rely upon Scripture alone as the sole source of divine revelation, but Scripture and Tradition.

I have NEVER claimed that purgatory is self-evident from Scripture alone and tried to make it quite clear that all I have been doing in offering Scriptural support is to show the IDEA of purgatory is Biblical... and again, have NEVER stated that any verse put forth by me should be taken as a "proof text" for purgatory.

Why in the world do you insist on subjecting me to a non-Catholic standard of exegesis.

One more time in the hope it will finally sink in for you educated fellows: I NEVER stated or even implied that I was trying to PROVE the teaching of purgatory by offering scripture... simply that it was a Biblical CONCEPT.

... and again, this CONCEPT is supported by prayers for the dead... that you can't see that is why I offered it should in NO WAY be interpreted as dishonest... that's just rude and judgemental on your part.

I really take offense at the implication that Luther was a lone maverick in not accepting the Apocrypha as scripture.
Please show me where I stated it was Luther ALONE that did not accept the "apocrypha".

It's as if he's going to imply that Luther was the first to have a problem with including the Apocrypha in the OT canon and
Please show me where I stated Luther was the first.

I don't see that as an honest way to discuss a topic.
At least we have this in common... looking forward to hearing your replies.

S

ScottRC

Aug 8, 2008, 09:08 AM

Poor scholarship to use opinion and inference as a straw man... what is offered here is demonstrably false.

Tj3

Aug 8, 2008, 11:54 AM

Thank you Tom. That was the same point that I was trying to make in post #373, but you pointed it out in a more neat and tidy manner. If he is not trying to prove the existence of purgatory by referring to 1 Peter 1:7, then why is he referring to it? Do you understand it? I don't.

No, I don't understand it.

I really take offense at the implication that Luther was a lone maverick in not accepting the Apocrypha as scripture.

Quite right. Opposition goes back to the Jews and even to Jerome as I pointed out previously. I also showed him where the New Catholic Encyclopedia stated that the decision to add the Apochrypha came at the Council of Trent, but he ignored it. I have shown them where internal evidence in 2 Maccabees denies divine inspiration, but he ignores it.

Lilmkiss

Aug 8, 2008, 12:53 PM

Well, this would only "discredit" purgatory if we taught that we are forgiven through another means besides Christ.... and since this is not the case, I'm not sure how this discredits anything but your mistaken assumptions about purgatory.

First of all if we are forgiven, God no longer see's our sin. It is not that our sin is not there but it is blotted out by Jesus Christ

Bible quote
Hebrews 1 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

"(T)he term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection"
-Servant of God Pope John Paul II

This is a despret attempt to use the voice of man to depict God's will. It is by no mans judgement that God will ever subject his will, but only through his holy spirit. And when it comes to purgatory, the human soul will never have to enter it. This is because Jesus Christ' blood has already blotted out our sin, no longer visible to God, allowing us to grow closer to him. (Jesus has already, through the cross, removed our sin and imperfections)

tsila1777

Aug 8, 2008, 12:54 PM

Huh?

"Back to purgatory".... what does that mean?

Huh? part two

What does this have to do with purgatory?

Purgatory is not hell.

:confused:

Can you do a word search? The same word used for Hell is also translated as Hades, Gehenna, and Sheol and since the word purgatory is not in the Holy Word of God, it is hard to do a word search on it. But I have found that it also is translated as hell.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. (604) The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: (605)
The state in which souls undergo this experience is often referred to as Hades.

The Orthodox Confession of Peter moqila(1596-1646), adopted, in a Greek translation by Meletius Syrigos, by the 1642 Council of Jassy, in Romania, professes that "many are freed from the prison of Hell... through the good works of the living and the Church's prayers for them, most of all through the unbloody sacrifice, which is offered on certain days for all the living and the dead"

Romans 3:24: "...Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."

1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..."

Titus 2:14: "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify onto himself a peculiar people.

Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

1 John 1:7: "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin."

1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness."

Jesus is all we need.

Lilmkiss

Aug 8, 2008, 02:00 PM

(mispost)

JoeT777

Aug 8, 2008, 07:32 PM

This is a despret attempt to use the voice of man to depict God's will. It is by no mans judgement that God will ever subject his will, but only through his holy spirit. And when it comes to purgatory, the human soul will never have to enter it. This is because Jesus Christ' blood has already blotted out our sin, no longer visible to God, allowing us to grow closer to him. (Jesus has already, through the cross, removed our sin and imperfections)

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

No its not a despret attempt to depict God's will, but rather with fear and trembling we work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil 2:12).

I must confess that I’ve only read the last page (of 35 pages) of this thread. If Pope John Paul II’s comments have already been posted, I apologize; if not may be helpful in determining the Catholic view of Purgatory.

During a General Audience in August 1999 His Holiness John Paul II explained that, "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection". The following is excerpts from his catecheses (teaching):

1. For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).

To share in divine life we must be totally purified

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)

2. The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).

Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).

Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence

4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).

This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).

5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory.

6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be re-proposed today: the dimension of "communion". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.

This is taught by the Magisterium of the RCC. It is based on Apostolic Teachings as well as Holy Scripture of the One, Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, founded by Christ and built on Peter who carries the keys of Heaven.

JoeT

Tj3

Aug 8, 2008, 07:48 PM

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

Jesus does the perfecting, not purgatory.

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

I must confess that I’ve only read the last page (of 35 pages) of this thread. If Pope John Paul II’s comments have already been posted, I apologize; if not may be helpful in determining the Catholic view of Purgatory.

I don't know about others, but I am not interested in the popes opinion - it is the opinion of a fallible man explaining your denomination's stance. What is important, and should matter to all who profess the name of Christ is what God has told us in His word about salvation. BTW, I am personally very aware of your denomination's position.

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid. 10: 12f.)

This is not the perfection God seeks.

Heb 10:5-7
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

None of this worked. Further, this was under the law and was symbolic of what was to come with Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Read Galatians 3. If you are looking to purgatory as being a means of perfecting yourself to be acceptable to God, then you are looking in the wrong place according to scripture.

Tj3

Aug 8, 2008, 08:27 PM

This is taught by the Magisterium of the RCC. It is based on Apostolic Teachings as well as Holy Scripture of the One, Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, founded by Christ and built on Peter who carries the keys of Heaven.
JoeT

The rest of you message has been addressed many times, so let me focus on this ending.

Based on Apostolic Teachings? If it were, you would be able to demonstrate it's consistency with scripture. But in many places, it contradicts scripture, therefore it cannot be representative of apostolic teachings.

Based upon Holy Scripture? So far no one has been able to bring forward scripture which, when read in context, supports any aspect of the belief in purgatory, therefore it cannot be based upon Holy Scripture.

Built on Peter? This is a direct contradiction of scripture:

1 Cor 3:10-11
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

Peter has the keys? Again a contradiction of scripture:

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

JoeT777

Aug 8, 2008, 11:14 PM

Jesus does the perfecting, not purgatory.
Then why does Scripture say that YOU shall pay for every last mite. (Luke 12:59); I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.

And what kind of prison do we go to where we are handed over by the judge to the jailor until every last penny is paid? Mt 5:25-26 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Christ will offer to God those that are pure and those still in Purgatory will be taught by Christ. 1 Pet 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

If we sin why are we saved, and how can we be saved by fire? 1 Cor 3:15; If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

And Purgatory can exist here on earth being disciplined by God's chastisement.
Heb 12:6-11 For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons. 9 Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. 11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice.

Why would Matthew talk about forgiving sins or not forgiving sins in the next world if in fact there were no Purgatory? Mt 12:32 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

And the following relate to Purgatory:

Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Heb 12:23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,

Col 1:24; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

2Sam 12:14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

2 Mac 12:43-46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins..

2 Tim 1:15-18 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief. 16 But for this cause have I obtained mercy: that in me first Christ Jesus might show forth all patience, for the information of them that shall believe in him unto life everlasting. 17 Now to the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

1 Jn 5:14-17 And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. 15 And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him. 16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask... mortal/venial sins

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. NKJV
Why should I disagree with this? Yes, Christ paid for our sins. But, “thou pay the very last mite.”

I don't know about others, but I am not interested in the popes opinion - it is the opinion of a fallible man explaining your denomination's stance. What is important, and should matter to all who profess the name of Christ is what God has told us in His word about salvation. BTW, I am personally very aware of your denomination's position.

As a man, he may be as big a sinner as me. As the Pope, in matters of our faith, he is infallible.
Insofar as the Church is concerned, since there is an Apostolic Succession, what you call the Roman Church is, and has been, the Church of Jesus Christ. So even if you consider it a courtesy, I would appreciate it if you would refer to it as a “Church.” The reference to “denomination” is beginning to become offensive.

This is not the perfection God seeks.

And this is according to Tom; or Scripture? It's God's grace that there is a state of Purgatory.

Heb 10:5-7
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--In the volume of the book it is written of Me--To do Your will, O God.' “ NKJV

None of this worked. Further, this was under the law and was symbolic of what was to come with Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Read Galatians 3. If you are looking to purgatory as being a means of perfecting yourself to be acceptable to God, then you are looking in the wrong place according to scripture.

Galatians 3 is out of context with the subject of Purgatory. It's referring to the Jewish law (Old Testament).

The rest of you message has been addressed many times, so let me focus on this ending.

Based on Apostolic Teachings? If it were, you would be able to demonstrate it's consistency with scripture. But in many places, it contradicts scripture, therefore it cannot be representative of apostolic teachings. You haven't demonstrated here where the Scriptures you quoted are in context with “Purgatory.”

Based upon Holy Scripture? So far no one has been able to bring forward scripture which, when read in context, supports any aspect of the belief in purgatory, therefore it cannot be based upon Holy Scripture.
You've only quoted two Scriptures?

The Church is a gateway to which is Christ.

The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ (Jn. 10:1-10). It is also a flock, of which God foretold that he would himself be the shepherd (cf. Is. 40:11; Ex. 34:11 f.), and whose sheep, although watched over by human shepherds, are nevertheless at all times led and brought to pasture by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and prince of shepherds (cf. Jn. 10:11; 1 Pet. 5:4), who gave his life for his sheep (cf. Jn. 10:11-16). (LUMEN GENTIUM)

Built on Peter? This is a direct contradiction of scripture:

1 Cor 3:10-11
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

Peter has the keys? Again a contradiction of scripture:

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV
The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors, and in it the apostolic college is perpetuated. Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church;[27] but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff. The Lord made Peter alone the rock-foundation and the holder of the keys of the Church (cf. Mt. 16:18-19), and constituted him shepherd of his whole flock (cf. Jn. 21:15 ff.). It is clear, however, that the office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter (Mt. 16:19), was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head (Mt. 18:18; 28:16-20).[28] This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the multifariousness and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head. (LUMEN GENTIUM)

JoeT

Wondergirl

Aug 8, 2008, 11:28 PM

Insofar as the Church is concerned, since there is an Apostolic Session
Do you mean "Session" or "Succession"? Two very different meanings here...

Peter Wilson

Aug 9, 2008, 02:21 AM

Joe, I appreciate your zeal, but it's like you can't see the forest for the trees.
Like your under a kind of spell.
I know it's pointless to show you anything, but here we go again,

Romans 10

The Word of Faith Brings Salvation

1Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Start listening to the Holy Spirit, not man.
Peace. :cool:

sndbay

Aug 9, 2008, 07:24 AM

The Church is a gateway to which is Christ.

The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ (Jn. 10:1-10). It is also a flock, of which God foretold that he would himself be the shepherd (cf. Is. 40:11; Ex. 34:11 f.), and whose sheep, although watched over by human shepherds, are nevertheless at all times led and brought to pasture by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and prince of shepherds (cf. Jn. 10:11; 1 Pet. 5:4), who gave his life for his sheep (cf. Jn. 10:11-16). (LUMEN GENTIUM)

The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors, and in it the apostolic college is perpetuated. Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church;[27] but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff. The Lord made Peter alone the rock-foundation and the holder of the keys of the Church (cf. Mt. 16:18-19), and constituted him shepherd of his whole flock (cf. Jn. 21:15 ff.). It is clear, however, that the office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter (Mt. 16:19), was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head (Mt. 18:18; 28:16-20).[28] This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the multifariousness and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head. (LUMEN GENTIUM)

JoeT

This all sounds as if you need the church as the vine to Christ. OR the church is made the vine. (gateway) That would be against scripture. Revelation 2:2-5 does refer a church that labors with patience, and can not stand for evil. And has for God name sake labored without fainting. BUT in verse 4 it also says NEVERTHELESS God has something against the church. The church has left it's first love.. It's obvious the church has put a love for itself or something other before Christ.. And they do it in the name sake of God..

Note the scripture does not lie for God does not lie. Why would you hand over the vine of Christ to the gateway called the church.

Refer: Mathew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This veil was once what the priest entered to give offerings to God for our sins. This veil was riped wide open by Christ giving us access into heaven. We have access through Christ the vine.

Hebrews 6:14-20 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation [is] to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Have you not heard the oath God confirmed? Have you also not heard that Christ was made high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec?

Hebrews 9: 3-5 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

This veil was riped open by Christ... Hebrews 9:6-10 is old time and the scripture explains this being what once was.

Hebrews 9:6-10 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

This next scripture is what NOW is: Hebrews 9:11-12

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

This scripture goes on to say that Christ does not have to do this as often as the priest did do. But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ is the vine... Don't replace or put something other then Christ before Him.
Otherwise you follow a church like the church in Revelation 2:2-5 that has left it's first love.

Tj3

Aug 9, 2008, 07:50 AM

Then why does Scripture say that YOU shall pay for every last mite. (Luke 12:59); I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.

Where do you find purgatory in that passage? Read the context. It is referring to people who are alive.

And if you think that this refers to paying the price for your sins - consider this, indeed answer it - what do you have which is capable of paying off the tiniest little bit of sin? Justify your answer from scripture.

If we sin why are we saved, and how can we be saved by fire? 1 Cor 3:15; If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Why do Roman catholics not read what has been posted and keep just asking the same thing over and over?

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

And Purgatory can exist here on earth being disciplined by God’s chastisement.
Heb 12:6-11

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Why would Matthew talk about forgiving sins or not forgiving sins in the next world if in fact there were no Purgatory? Mt 12:32 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Heb 10:13-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Col 1:24; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2Sam 12:14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins..

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief.. .

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17 And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. 15 And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him. 16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

We cannot take scripture out of context.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

There is one sins for which we need not pray because the is no forgiveness.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

Why should I disagree with this? Yes, Christ paid for our sins. But, “thou pay the very last mite.”

This makes no sense, You are taking a passage out of context, and second, if Christ already paid it, why would we have to pay it again?

As a man, he may be as big a sinner as me. As the Pope, in matters of our faith, he is infallible.

And this is found in scripture where?

Insofar as the Church is concerned, since there is an Apostolic Session, what you call the Roman Church is, and has been, the Church of Jesus Christ. So even if you consider it a courtesy, I would appreciate it if you would refer to it as a “Church.” The reference to “denomination” is beginning to become offensive.

As a courtesy, I would like you to stop referring to it as "The Church". That is offensive since there are many other churches and denominations.

And this is according to Tom; or Scripture? It’s God’s grace that there is a state of Purgatory.

Then why is it not found in scripture?

Galatians 3 is out of context with the subject of Purgatory. It’s referring to the Jewish law (Old Testament).

I was responding to an argument for purgatory based upon Jewish law.

You haven’t demonstrated here where the Scriptures you quoted are in context with “Purgatory.”

We've been through a lot of scripture on this thread - which are you referring to?

You’ve only quoted two Scriptures?

Huh??

The Church is a gateway to which is Christ.

Your denomination is not a gateway to Christ. If you want to claim that your denomination is special, then show us where your denomination or any denomination is found in scripture (Yes, I refer to a denomination because that is what it is - it is not "The Church" - that is an arrogant and false claim.

[I] The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors, and in it the apostolic college is perpetuated. Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church

Just quoting documents from your denomination is not going to convince those who hold to God's word.

BTW, do you know that the title "Pontiff" is the title of the priest in the pgan Roman religion that Constantine amalgamated with the churches to create the Roman Catholic denomination?

Lilmkiss

Aug 9, 2008, 10:40 AM

Then why does Scripture say that YOU shall pay for every last mite. (Luke 12:59); I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.

In full context it says
Interpreting the Times
54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
57"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[c]"

Understand that the word mite in Hebrew means half penny, this means that this is talking about a fiscal man made prison and not a spiritual prison. This is when Jesus was making a point to the people that as smart as they may think they are, they are ignorant of facts stanting right in fron of them.

And what kind of prison do we go to where we are handed over by the judge to the jailor until every last penny is paid? Mt 5:25-26 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Murder
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Again you read this out of context again this is speaking of Murder, forgivness and a physical prison.

Christ will offer to God those that are pure and those still in Purgatory will be taught by Christ. 1 Pet 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

Suffering for Doing Good
8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,
"Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.
11He must turn from evil and do good;
he must seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."[a]
13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear[b]; do not be frightened."[c] 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

AGAIN taking things out of context this is where Jesus went to preach in abrahams bussom to those who where already saved and going to heaven (JESUS NEVER WENT TO HELL! )

If we sin why are we saved, and how can we be saved by fire? 1 Cor 3:15; If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

On Divisions in the Church
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[a]; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[b] 21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Again again and again you took this out of context this is a statement of us building a relationship with christ through the foundation that he laid and we will be tested on our relationship through persicution(fire) this is also a reference of a refining fire and again the refining fire of our relationship with christ is persicution this is not a perging but a test.

Lilmkiss

Aug 9, 2008, 10:41 AM

And Purgatory can exist here on earth being disciplined by God's chastisement.
Heb 12:6-11 For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons. 9 Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. 11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice.

Please understand this is talking about when we are on earth! This again is saying that if we are not chastised or Persicuted then we are not with God. Here he is talking to the living people and not the dead.(you are treding in deep waters by adding meaning that arnt there and you will be condemd to hell if you start adding anything or taking away from anything the bible says according to
Deuteronomy 12
The One Place of Worship
1 These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess—as long as you live in the land. 2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
4 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way. 5 But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; 6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. 7 There, in the presence of the LORD your God, you and your families shall eat and shall rejoice in everything you have put your hand to, because the LORD your God has blessed you.
8 You are not to do as we do here today, everyone as he sees fit, 9 since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the LORD your God is giving you. 10 But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety. 11 Then to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the LORD. 12 And there rejoice before the LORD your God, you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns, who have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 13 Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. 14 Offer them only at the place the LORD will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.
15 Nevertheless, you may slaughter your animals in any of your towns and eat as much of the meat as you want, as if it were gazelle or deer, according to the blessing the LORD your God gives you. Both the ceremonially unclean and the clean may eat it. 16 But you must not eat the blood; pour it out on the ground like water. 17 You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts. 18 Instead, you are to eat them in the presence of the LORD your God at the place the LORD your God will choose—you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns—and you are to rejoice before the LORD your God in everything you put your hand to. 19 Be careful not to neglect the Levites as long as you live in your land.
20 When the LORD your God has enlarged your territory as he promised you, and you crave meat and say, "I would like some meat," then you may eat as much of it as you want. 21 If the place where the LORD your God chooses to put his Name is too far away from you, you may slaughter animals from the herds and flocks the LORD has given you, as I have commanded you, and in your own towns you may eat as much of them as you want. 22 Eat them as you would gazelle or deer. Both the ceremonially unclean and the clean may eat. 23 But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat. 24 You must not eat the blood; pour it out on the ground like water. 25 Do not eat it, so that it may go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is right in the eyes of the LORD.
26 But take your consecrated things and whatever you have vowed to give, and go to the place the LORD will choose. 27 Present your burnt offerings on the altar of the LORD your God, both the meat and the blood. The blood of your sacrifices must be poured beside the altar of the LORD your God, but you may eat the meat. 28 Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the LORD your God.
29 The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." 31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Why would Matthew talk about forgiving sins or not forgiving sins in the next world if in fact there were no Purgatory? Mt 12:32 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Jesus and Beelzebub
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Again this was taken out of context meaning that if you refuse the ways of man (Beelzebub) then you will be forgiven your sins but if you refuse the holy spirit then you are condemning yourself to hell.

And the following relate to Purgatory:

Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Heb 12:23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,

Col 1:24; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

2Sam 12:14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

2 Mac 12:43-46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins..

2 Tim 1:15-18 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief. 16 But for this cause have I obtained mercy: that in me first Christ Jesus might show forth all patience, for the information of them that shall believe in him unto life everlasting. 17 Now to the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

1 Jn 5:14-17 And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. 15 And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him. 16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.... mortal/venial sins

I encourage all of you reading this to read this in context as I had shown above because this has already got tired of fining the fallacy that this person is teaching read them in full context not just what is shown here. (non of these show any evidence for purgatory

As a man, he may be as big a sinner as me. As the Pope, in matters of our faith, he is infallible. Insofar as the Church is concerned, since there is an Apostolic Succession, what you call the Roman Church is, and has been, the Church of Jesus Christ. So even if you consider it a courtesy, I would appreciate it if you would refer to it as a “Church.” The reference to “denomination” is beginning to become offensive.

Two things I got to say, the pope is a man with a soul like any other man he is not only just as much of a sinner as us all but just as easily spiritually corrupt and would not have participated with all the other pagan religions in the multicultural festival if he followed what Jesus says about delving into other religions! Meaning that he is just as fallible spiritually as any other man!! Second you guys worship Mary the mother of Jesus to get to Jesus to talk to God where Jesus said John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So truly you are the church of the mother of Jesus not the church of Jesus. And the roman catholic church is a denom no mater how you put it they are not with God because they don't just rely on God's word but tradition as well meaning it is no longer a relationship with God but rather a religion.

Look up to be absent from the body is to be with the lord. Also so why would Paul say this instead of to be absent from the body is to be in prison then the Lord? This is my question to you.

Lilmkiss

Aug 9, 2008, 11:08 AM

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

in the end when Jesus died on the cross he said It is finished meaning that we are all forgiven our sins when he accept him and are no long guilty of sin but are made holy. So if this is truly what you believe that we have to be corrected in some other fashon, did Jesus lie when he said it is finished?

No its not a despret attempt to depict God's will, but rather with fear and trembling we work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil 2:12).
JoeT

Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16as you hold out[c] the word of life—in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing. 17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

this again in context is talking about his peoples personal realationship of fear(meaning admiration for him) this is by no means proof for us working out our salvation it is showing that we are saved through this relationship and not by our own works.

sndbay

Aug 9, 2008, 11:46 AM

Then why does Scripture say that YOU shall pay for every last mite. (Luke 12:59); I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.

And what kind of prison do we go to where we are handed over by the judge to the jailor until every last penny is paid? Mt 5:25-26 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

JoeT

One should understand the book of Luke. 4:14 thr 9:21 The Kingdom - Proclaimed! And then Luke 9:22 thr 22:38 The Kingdom - Rejected ( Fourfold Ministry of the Lord)

Try to understand who this statement is refer to in Luke 12:59... Ye hypocrities, and what they do not seem able to do. They can't judge for themselves? So these hypocrities are either nonbelievers or they can not judge wrong doing. In other words they feel they could take advantage of someone for their own gain, and not owe anything in payment.
Now I ask you, do you need to believe in Christ to be saved? YES.. Do you think anyone or anything other then Christ can save them? No.. You yourself would be a hypocrite to think so. These that do not believe can not be placed in a make right purgatory.. Nor pay somehow for their unbelief, and their undesevered gains. You can't be the hypocrite and go to heaven.. That is what the verse in both Matthew and Luke is saying.

Double minded = can you think evil and be righteous?

Luke 12:56-59 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, [as thou art] in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite

JoeT777

Aug 9, 2008, 03:23 PM

All:

I’ve given up trying to respond to all the posts which are, based on the content, very decidedly Protestant in nature. It would simply take more time then I have to respond to all of these. Even still, I’d like to point out the condescending nature of these responses.

Tj3 asks, “Why do Roman Catholics not read what has been posted and keep just asking the same thing over and over?”

The question presumes that if a Protestant or Non-Denominational response isn’t given it’s not a correct and therefore nonresponsive.

Tj3 after reciting Matt 12: 31-32 presumes that the Catholic faith “speaks against belief.” Further, he suggests that His Holiness the Pope is “pagan.” .” [What amazes me here is that this is that even a Protestant can call the Roman Catholic Church “pagan” when it was that same Church that preserved the sacred Scripture for 1500 years, passing off to the non-Catholics to be misinterpreted, and continued maintaining them this past 500 years]

Peter Wilson recites Romans 10 in such a way as to presume that Catholics follow the Old Testament Law.

Sndbay seems to be indicating that his own scriptural interpretation outweigh the Words of Christ; Matt:16: 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And, with finesse I might add, eventually comes to call Catholics (or just me, I’m not sure which) hypocrites.

While in part I understand, I still expected much more civility.

Wow, I must say I’m amazed that Christians would shanghai Scripture to express their contempt for the Roman Church. Isn’t it the Protestant Rule of Faith that Scriptural interpretation is private and guided by the Holy Spirit? Conversely, Catholic doctrine holds “that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established.” (Trent, Fourth Session, April 8, 1546)

To the best of my knowledge, the sense of the Scripture I presented did represent the view of the Church not a self serving goal.

JoeT

Tj3

Aug 9, 2008, 03:47 PM

All:
I've given up trying to respond to all the posts which are, based on the content, very decidedly Protestant in nature.

I , for one, am not protestant.

It would simply take more time then I have to respond to all of these. Even still, I'd like to point out the condescending nature of these responses.

You raised the points and now you are getting responses.

Tj3 asks, “Why do Roman Catholics not read what has been posted and keep just asking the same thing over and over?”

The question presumes that if a Protestant or Non-Denominational response isn't given it's not a correct and therefore nonresponsive.

No, that is not true. Once again, I am not protestant. But I note that over and over again there are a set of passages that just keep getting quoted and when the context is shown, there is no discussion in response. The Roman Catholic response is to simply repeat the same reference once, twice, 15 or more times again without even addressing the rebuttal which has been raised.

Perhaps if there was some respectful acknowledgment of the response and some respectful interaction, we could avoid wasting everyone's time. Rather what we get is the arrogant quotes of what "The Church" has decreed.

Tj3 after reciting Matt 12: 31-32 presumes that the Catholic faith “speaks against belief.” Further, he suggests that His Holiness the Pope is “pagan.”

You really like to mis-represent don't you? Because of past problems with this, I asked you to provide the actual quote, but again you do not, but rather dishonestly claim that I said something that I did not. Here is how the discussion actually went:

----------------YOU SAID------------------------
The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors, and in it the apostolic college is perpetuated. Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church
----------------END QUOTE FROM YOU--------

Note the arrogant attitude, that ONLY the leadership of your denomination has authority over the "universal church". Now, here is what I said in response.

----------------MY RESPONSE------------------
Just quoting documents from your denomination is not going to convince those who hold to God's word.

BTW, do you know that the title "Pontiff" is the title of the priest in the pagan Roman religion that Constantine amalgamated with the churches to create the Roman Catholic denomination?
----------------END OF MY RESPONSE--------

Note that I did not, as you claim, says that the current pope is pagan.that was simply not honest. We never evene discussed the topic - if you would like, we can, and we can discuss the relative merits of the teachings of the current papacy, but until we do, please be honest in how you treat what I and others say.

Maybe you would like to go back and read what I said and see if you can come up with an honest rebuttal.

Then you mis-represent me further by saying...

” [What amazes me here is that this is that even a Protestant can call the Roman Catholic Church “pagan” when it was that same Church that preserved the sacred Scripture for 1500 years, passing off to the non-Catholics to be misinterpreted, and continued maintaining them this past 500 years]

Once again, I am not a protestant - how many times do I have to tell you this?

- If the RCC preserved the scriptures, then why did they add the Bible to the Index of Forbidden books?
- Why did they add books to the Bible?

Peter Wilson recites Romans 10 in such a way as to presume that Catholics follow the Old Testament Law.

There was a post on here, I believe from you, that used OT law to support the belief in purgatory. If you are going to base your beliefs on it, expect to get a response to it.

Sndbay seems to be indicating that his own scriptural interpretation outweigh the Words of Christ; Matt:16: 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And, with finesse I might add, eventually comes to call Catholics (or just me, I'm not sure which) hypocrites.

I note that when Catholics want to claim that this was about Peter, they quote from verse 18, thus cutting out the context:

Matt 16:15-19
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
NKJV

There is no way to read this as referring to Peter. Throughout scripture (and I will give references if you want them, the Rock is always God (usually directly related to Jesus). The word used for Peter is Stone, and scripture even tells us this:

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

If you want to discuss this passage further, let's do so.

While in part I understand, I still expected much more civility.

Luke 6:41-42
41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.
NKJV

Wow, I must say I'm amazed that Christians would shanghai Scripture to express their contempt for the Roman Church. Isn't it the Protestant Rule of Faith that Scriptural interpretation is private and guided by the Holy Spirit?

Talking about civility, you keep telling us that your denomination is "The Church", and that only your denomination has the right interpretation or the right to interpret (isn't that in and of itself hijacking scripture?). Rather than coming out with this arrogance, why not simply get into God's word and let's discuss.

Conversely, Catholic doctrine holds “that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established.” (Trent, Fourth Session, April 8, 1546)

There goes that arrogance again. You are claiming (contrary to 2 Pet 1:20) that a group of men in your denomination are the only ones who can interpret. And further suggesting that we dare not disagree with your denomination ("Holy Mother Church"). Do you think that it would be conducive to discussion if I simply told you that you were wrong because the men in my church disagree with you and they are never wrong therefore you must be? Have you ever thought how you, and others who take the same approach come across, especially when you mis-represent what others who disagree with you have said?

2 Peter 1:19-20
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
NKJV

sndbay

Aug 9, 2008, 04:36 PM

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The Word of God comes as encouragement or as our admonition.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

This is not for us to worry about, because God will draw near to those that draw near to Him.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

'John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Point of Fact: Scripture brings God's Word

Wondergirl

Aug 9, 2008, 05:01 PM

Tj3

Aug 9, 2008, 05:38 PM

The Catholic Church interprets this verse this way:

Matt 16:15-19
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock (that is, petros, Peter) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. NKJV

whereas Protestants and Tom interpret it this way:

Matt 16:15-19
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock (that is, on My Father who is in heaven) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. NKJV

because, otherwise, Jesus would have said, "...And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on you I will build My church...."

The problem in interpretation is, what is the antecedent of "this rock"?

Actually,I would suggest that logically the rock was Christ, not the Father. My reasons are given below. I have not heard anyone previously suggest that the reference to the Rock referred to God the Father, though I do agree that there is no question that it refers to God.

What do we see in the passage?

- Jesus was speaking to his disciples as a group
- The topic was "who is Jesus"
- Peter answered that he is the Messiah, son of the living God.
- Jesus does not immediately refer to Peter, but rather the fact that the revelation of the truth came from God the Father (further confirming that it is the statement of who He is that He is referring to)

The word Peter here is Petros, which means stone or a piece of a rock, and then Jesus refers to the "Rock" which is the revelation of who he is, and states that His church shall be built upon this revelation that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. The word "rock" here is Petra, which means rock, or a mass of rock. We do not build a building upon a piece of a rock or a stone, but rather upon a rock that is massive enough to provide a solid foundation. Jesus' choice of words made it clear which should be the foundation of His church. It is interesting to note the consistency of scripture in the use of these terms, Rock and stone. Throughout scripture, the Rock almost always refers to God (Father or Son):

Deut 32:4
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
NKJV

2 Sam 22:47
47 "The LORD lives! Blessed be my Rock! Let God be exalted, The Rock of my salvation!
NKJV

Ps 18:46
46 The LORD lives! Blessed be my Rock! Let the God of my salvation be exalted.
NKJV

Ps 95:1
Let us shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.
NKJV

Isa 17:10
10 Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation, And have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
NKJV

1 Cor 10:4-5
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
NKJV

We could also have quoted Deut 32:15, Deut 32:18, Deut 32:30-31, 2 Sam 23:3, Ps 28:1, Ps 42:9, Ps 144:1, Iss 44:8 and Hab 1:12. As for the stone, there is much less, but here is what we do find:

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
NKJV

So, we are stones, but there are references to Jesus as a stone as well, for example Romans 9:33, where He is referred to both as a Rock and a Stone. That is because he is the cornerstone:

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
NKJV

The cornerstone is in fact, a rock. So Jesus can be called a stone (cornerstone), but is more frequently called the Rock and even the reference to Him being a stone refers to a Rock (cornerstone). On the other hand, there is no reference in scripture anywhere of Peter being called a Rock. He is a stone, as we all are stones per 1 Peter 2:4-6. This may also be a reference to the fact that Jesus is both God (Rock) and man (stone), and is the sole person to hold such a distinction.

Jesus, as the Rock, is also the cornerstone, which is the most notable piece of the foundation, but the confession of Peter that Jesus is Christ is the foundation upon which the church will be built. We see this endorsed in scripture as well, later by Paul:

1 Cor 3:11
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

So the foundation is Jesus, not Peter. A church built upon Jesus, and the revelation of the fact that he is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God is the church that will stand, not a church built upon a man.

Wondergirl

Aug 9, 2008, 06:34 PM

I agree, Tom. I should have said "...And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock (Jesus then points to Himself) I will build My church..."

cozyk

Aug 9, 2008, 07:28 PM

After reading ALL this stuff I have one question...

What does it matter??

Tj3

Aug 9, 2008, 07:29 PM

After reading ALL this stuff I have one question....

What does it matter????

What part of the discussion specifically are you asking about?

ScottRC

Aug 9, 2008, 10:26 PM

Beautiful!

ScottRC

Aug 9, 2008, 10:59 PM

Can you do a word search? The same word used for Hell is also translated as Hades, Gehenna, and Sheol and since the word purgatory is not in the Holy Word of God, it is hard to do a word search on it. But I have found that it also is translated as hell.
You can search whatever you'd like, but if you are really trying to understand the Catholic teaching on purgatory you should know that it is NOT HELL.

Heaven - Purgatory - Hell ------> NO ONE in Purgatory goes to hell.

In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]
Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM)

Jesus is all we need.
Amen.

Wondergirl

Aug 9, 2008, 11:04 PM

Flash! Rhetorical question: So if "Jesus is all we need," why would purgatory be necessary?

ScottRC

Aug 9, 2008, 11:10 PM

Flash! Rhetorical question: So if "Jesus is all we need," why would purgatory be necessary?
Well... oh... sorry-----> rhetorical question... my bad.

I'll wait for a non-rhetorical question.

Wondergirl

Aug 9, 2008, 11:12 PM

Well... oh... sorry-----> rhetorical question.... my bad.

I'll wait for a non-rhetorical question.
Okay. Switching it to a non-rhetorical one -- go for it! (which we have been doing in a couple of the recent threads... )

ScottRC

Aug 9, 2008, 11:35 PM

So if "Jesus is all we need," why would purgatory be necessary?
In purgatory, Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

So your assertion that we need something other than Christ is false... and it seems all you really object to is the "timing" of Christ's work.

Wondergirl

Aug 9, 2008, 11:45 PM

In purgatory, Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

So your assertion that we need something other than Christ is false.... and it seems all you really object to is the "timing" of Christ's work.
I don't assert that we need something other than Christ. "Timing"? Do you have me mixed up with someone else? I'm Lutheran, born on Martin Luther's birthday.

JoeT777

Aug 9, 2008, 11:48 PM

I agree, Tom. I should have said "...And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock (Jesus then points to Himself) I will build My church..."

Tj3, Wondergirl, et al.

Matt 16: 13-20 The Primacy of Peter (The first, Simon who is called Peter Matt 10:2)

18. Et ego dico tibi, quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram ædificabo Ecclesiam meam, et portæ inferi non prævalebunt adversus eam. (That thou art Peter)

The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter. This was illustrated in a letter written by Pope Clement I (third in succession to Peter and had personally known Peter) to the Corinthians (circa) 95 AD claiming authority over Corinth. St. Irenaeus tells the second hand account from St. Polycarp where John was heard to say “the faithful wo are everywhere must agree with this Church (Rome) because of its more important principality.” During the Councils and Synods surrounding the early heresies the Popes decision settled the matter. This is illustrated in 431 AD. Where the Bishops responded to Pope Celestine’s decision, “He [Peter] lives even to this time, and always in his successor’s gives judgment.”

Only after 1520 some have asked why this reference is only found in one Gospel and not the others, Warren Carroll suggest the rather simple answer: “Why are Christ’s words to Peter found only in Matthew, and not in the other gospels? Because Mathew was there, with Peter and the Twelve, on the road to Caesarea Philippi in the summer of 29 A.D.: he heard the dialogue himself, in his own Aramaic language. Mark the Evangelist was not there; his information came from Peter, and we have very early testimony that out of humility Peter did not include Christ’s praise of him in his catechesis. John had the other gospels before him as he wrote, and rarely repeated what they had already reported.. . “ That the words don’t appear in Mark’s Gospel was influenced by Peter’s humility. It would be easy to suggest this as speculation however Victor of Antioch, the first commentator of Mark, mentions it as does Eusebius of Caesarea. Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 338. (see also footnote 139)

In the Douay Rheims the verse reads as follows:

13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cæsarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.

In the way of setting the scene; Caesarea Phillippi is in the valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon as mentioned in Josh 11:17 or Baal Hemon as mentioned in Judg 3:3. Of particular interest is a land feature of a massive rock face. One of the tributaries for the Jordan River flows through the area. The area was liberated by the Maccabean revolt in 167 B.C. In 4 B.C. one of Herod the Great s three sons, Philip, built the Roman Grecian of Caesarea Philippi to honor the Roman emperor.

You can imagine Jesus with this huge rock wall as a backdrop, asking twice (not once but twice), “Whom to they say that I am?” No other disciples could give the answer but Simon. Simon confessed Jesus as being both the Messiah and the “Son of the Living God.” God had revealed to Simon what no other man on earth knew; Christ was the Second Person of the One Devine God.

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I can’t claim any significance to the number of times “blessed art thou” is used in the New Testament. However, it is used only three times, twice in Luke 1: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women... 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be; and once in Matthew 16:17. It’s only used once by Jesus. (this holds true in the NKJV also) In my estimation, like Mary, God seats Peter in a special Chair for our salvation; the first of 266 whose “successor’s gives judgment,” St. Peter, St. Linus, St. Anacletus, St. Clement I, St. Alexander I, St. Sixtus I, St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus… Benedict XVI

In plain language of today, the simple meaning of the verse 18 becomes: because this was revealed to you by God, I will call you Rock and on this Rock I will build my church; hell won’t prevail against it.

19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

The “keys” are the keys to the kingdom of heaven, similar to the “keys” mentioned in Isaiah 22. With the transfer of the keys, one to another, power and authority is also transferred; Christ gives Peter the supreme authority over the Church and to bind and loose, both in heaven and on earth.

“In regard to the Petros Kepha argument made by some, “the play of words involved in naming Simon “Rock” is as clear in Aramaic as in English, if we use the literal translation “Rock” for the Aramaic Kepha rather than “Peter” which is derived from the Greek Petros. In Greek the noun for rock is feminine. Therefore it is unsuitable for a man’s name, and Peter is named Petros while the precise word for rock is petra, making the meaning a little less clear. But Christ’s words to Peter were spoken in Aramaic and first recorded in Armaic in Matthew’s Gospel; furthermore, we know that Peter was later often called Kepha or Cephas as well as Petros.” “Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 349 footnote 135.

Below is a list of various references to the Primacy of Peter. (The Catholic apologist's scriptural cheat sheet last revised March 2, 1998 by Christopher Wong ([email protected]))

Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13; Lk 9:32... Peter always mentioned first, as foremost apostle.
Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69... Peter speaks for the apostles.
Acts 2:14-40... Pentecost: Peter who first preached.
Acts 3:6-7... Peter worked first healing.
Acts 10:46-48... Gentiles to be baptized revealed to Peter.
Jn 1:42... Simon is Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).
Mt 16:18-19... "on this Rock ... keys ... bind ... loose"
Is 22:22; Rev 1:18... keys as symbol of authority.
Jn 21:17... "feed my sheep"
Lk 22:31-32... "Simon ... strengthen your brethren".
Lk 10:1-2, 16; Jn 13:20; 2 Cor 5:20; Gal 4:14; Acts 5:1-5... "vicars" (substitutes) of Christ.

JoeT

Why was that a nice save? Are we playing a game?

Wondergirl

Aug 9, 2008, 11:59 PM

Why was that a nice save? Are we playing a game?
You didn't read what I wrote and then Tom's adjustment? He was more specific than I was, and clarified what I had said. And no, we aren't playing a game.

Wondergirl

Aug 10, 2008, 12:01 AM

making the meaning a little less clear
Glad you mentioned that...

ScottRC

Aug 10, 2008, 12:47 AM

I don't assert that we need something other than Christ. "Timing"? Do you have me mixed up with someone else? I'm Lutheran, born on Martin Luther's birthday.Wow.:eek:

You stated: So if "Jesus is all we need," why would purgatory be necessary?

Which makes no sense... since purgatory IS through Christ.

It's like asking: "if "Jesus is all we need." why would Jesus be necessary?"

Any clearer yet?

sndbay

Aug 10, 2008, 04:28 AM

In purgatory, Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

So your assertion that we need something other than Christ is false.... and it seems all you really object to is the "timing" of Christ's work.

Scott, Timing? So what happened at the time Christ was nailed to the cross? I believe Christ picked the timing. So once again I rebuke the idea that there is another time for it to take place again.. It would be nailing Christ to the Cross again. REBUKE!

sndbay

Aug 10, 2008, 04:58 AM

After reading ALL this stuff I have one question....

What does it matter????

The Truth is and will always be, we as mortal men can not reveal unto each other. For it is written only the Father which is in heaven reveals.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The revelation of what the Father has given us all, is written in scripture. Not part of what is written but all that is written. Why it was written is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

This is written...They, the disciples included, followed the spiritual ROCK and the ROCK was Christ.

This is written...Christ is with us every minutes of everyday. We have "HIM" if you choose to have "HIM" Why would you want a mortal person to follow? Do you need someone or some object as the example of those people did when Moses went up on the mount unto God?

This is written that those having victory with heaven open unto them. They were singing the song of Moses.... Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

Sing the Song of Moses

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 07:52 AM

You can search whatever you'd like, but if you are really trying to understand the Catholic teaching on purgatory you should know that it is NOT HELL.

Heaven - Purgatory - Hell ------> NO ONE in Purgatory goes to hell.

We agree. That is because there is no purgatory.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 07:54 AM

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 07:55 AM

Wow.:eek:

You stated: So if "Jesus is all we need," why would purgatory be necessary?

Which makes no sense... since purgatory IS through Christ.

It's like asking: "if "Jesus is all we need." why would Jesus be necessary?"

Any clearer yet?

Purgatory, so far is simply claim made by your denomination with no scripture to back it up.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 08:05 AM

Tj3, Wondergirl, et al.

Matt 16: 13-20 The Primacy of Peter (The first, Simon who is called Peter Matt 10:2)

This was already addressed in my previous post. I see nothing in your post which counters what I said previous for this part of the question, nor have you responded to what T said, so it stands as is.

The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter.

I don't care what the men in your denomination believe. I care what God said in His word.

In plain language of today, the simple meaning of the verse 18 becomes: because this was revealed to you by God, I will call you Rock and on this Rock I will build my church; hell won't prevail against it.

But that is not what it says. That is your private interpretation.

19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

The “keys” are the keys to the kingdom of heaven, similar to the “keys” mentioned in Isaiah 22. With the transfer of the keys, one to another, power and authority is also transferred; Christ gives Peter the supreme authority over the Church and to bind and loose, both in heaven and on earth.

What were the keys that Jesus says that He is giving? We see that the Pharisees had previously held the keys:

Luke 11:52
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV

The keys were knowledge, but what knowledge would bind people and what knowledge was it that the Pharisees did not use to loose themselves by entering in? It was the key of the truth and specifically the truth of the gospel. The Pharisees were the priests who had the key of truth by which they could guide the people into salvation, and instead of losing the keys to open the door, they bound the key, took it away from the people and bound themselves by not using it. Jesus gave the keys to the disciples. We see in Matthew 16:13 that he was speaking to the disciples:

Matt 16:13
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
NKJV

The gospel was not given just to one man, but to the disciples to use to take into the word to bring salvation to the people. Note that even the Pharisees were not given the keys, but Luke 11:52 says that they took the keys. Who from? It was from the people of Israel. The keys were never intended to be in the hands of only some people or one person, but Jesus took the keys from the Pharisees and gave them to the disciples, people who had already entered into their salvation and who knew that to use the keys, they had to give them to the people, that they too might enter. If they use the keys, people will no longer be bound and can enter and be saved. It is the keys of knowledge that loose men to be free in Christ and be no longer bound by sin.

You made the claim that the keys are the key of David mentioned in Isaiah 22:20-23. But that is not the case. Jesus addresses that in the book of Revelation:

Rev 3:7-8
7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens":
NKJV

So Jesus has and uses that key alone. Jesus has the key and He alone uses it to open and shut.

Below is a list of various references to the Primacy of Peter.

Like Fred, you are copying and pasting from the "Catholic Apologists Cheat Sheet" website without giving credit. As I showed when I refuted Fred, you need to read these before blindly posting them. Many of them have no bearing whatsoever on the topic. and the rest are refuted by reading the context. But I need to head off to breakfast right now. I'll refute these later.

I'll deal with this list later.

cozyk

Aug 10, 2008, 11:34 AM

[QUOTE=sndbay]The Truth is and will always be, we as mortal men can not reveal unto each other. For it is written only the Father which is in heaven reveals.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The revelation of what the Father has given us all, is written in scripture. Not part of what is written but all that is written. Why it was written is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them
Committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

This is written...They, the disciples included, followed the spiritual ROCK and the ROCK was Christ.

This is written...Christ is with us every minutes of everyday. We have "HIM" if you choose to have "HIM" Why would you want a mortal person to follow? Do you need someone or some object as the example of those people did when Moses went up on the mount unto God?

This is written that those having victory with heaven open unto them. They were singing the song of Moses.... Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

Sing the Song of Moses[/QUOTE

I'm sorry, I don't understand any of that. Please tell me in your own words without quoting scripture. Bible "speak" is so full of metaphors, absolutes, twisted sentences, and backward talk that it is no wonder different faiths can't agree on a single interpretation. So please, in lay language tell me why it matters if there is a purgatory or not when you as Christians should strive to live your best life anyway and God is a forgiving God.

ScottRC

Aug 10, 2008, 11:59 AM

Scott, Timing? So what happened at the time Christ was nailed to the cross? I believe Christ picked the timing. So once again I rebuke the idea that there is another time for it to take place again.. It would be nailing Christ to the Cross again.
Sorry, I so rarely talk to someone who believes in universal salvation... thanks for helping me understand your beliefs.

Peace.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 01:06 PM

Below is a list of various references to the Primacy of Peter.

Okay, let's look at these:

Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13; Lk 9:32... Peter always mentioned first, as foremost apostle.

Let's deal with these as a group. But first let's talk about the premise. Even if it were true that Peter was mentioned first, does not make him the foremost Apostle? No. That is a presumption without validation. Ordering of the names is a weak argument and is, at best circumstantial. Without any other specific evidence, such an argument will not stand. Further, there are notable exceptions to this also which suggest that this was not done intentionally to present a specific message of primacy, for example, John 1:44.

A very significant example is Acts 15, at the Council of Jerusalem. If Peter had primacy, certainly it should have been evident at the council, but Peter was neither the spokesman (Paul and Barnabas were), nor did he speak first, and typically the decision maker or chairman will be the last to speak to provide the summary as to what the decision is and what is to be done and that was James.

Let's look at the next section:

Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69... Peter speaks for the apostles.

Matt 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
NKJV

Mark 8:29
29 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ."
NKJV

Luke 12:41-42
41 Then Peter said to Him, "Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?"
NKJV

In these three, the context would suggest that Peter is simply speaking on his own accord. There is no evidence that he is a spokesman. You best argument in this regard would be the other verse that you mention:

John 6:66-69
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV

This is at best a very weak argument, but falls apart when you see the one time that a spokesman is clearly and obviously identified, it is NOT Peter but James. This is at the first church council in jerusalem:

Acts 15:13, 19-20
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me... 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
NKJV

Acts 2:14-40... Pentecost: Peter who first preached.

Not true. They all were speaking prior to Peter, because they said that they heard them in their own languages.

Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
NKJV

Peter then spoke up to explain what was happening. The fact that Peter was the last one to speak (not the first) and gave the sermon does not imply anything with respect to leadership. The fact that all the apostles were speaking is also emphasized by the fact that crowd responded to them all, not just Peter:

Acts 2:37
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
NKJV

Acts 3:6-7... Peter worked first healing.

The first miracle in the New Testament was performed by Jesus, not any of the apostles (John 2:1-12). Numerous miracles were performed in the Gospels and by other disciples (not necessarily apostles) such as in Luke 10:17-20, so the miracles in Acts 3 were not even the first performed by believers in the New Testament. Even if the intent is to address the first miracles performed by the Apostles after Pentecost, this is still not accurate, because the first miracles performed after Pentecost were in Acts 2 and scripture does not record the specifics of the first.

Acts 2:43-44
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through
The apostles.
NKJV

Acts 10:46-48... Gentiles to be baptized revealed to Peter.

And many other things were revealed through other Apostles. So?

This was actually revealed much earlier, even in the Old Testament when God revealed through Isaiah that the New Covenant would include the Gentiles:

Isa 49:6
6 Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
NKJV

Also, if you are focusing on baptism, don't forget that the New Testament baptism is in fact a Jewish Old Testament mikveh.

Jn 1:42... Simon is Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).

This argument was previously refuted in this thread. It means stone, and scripture even tells us this:

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

Mt 16:18-19... "on this Rock ... keys ... bind ... loose"

This argument previously refuted. I am not going to repeated in once again in this post.

Is 22:22; Rev 1:18... keys as symbol of authority.

This argument previously refuted. I am not going to repeated in once again in this post.

Jn 21:17... "feed my sheep"

This was not unique to Peter. Evidence that this was also for other church leaders is found here:

1 Peter 5:1-4
5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.
NKJV

Neither was this authority given to Peter alone to dispense. Here are the words of Paul:

Acts 20:25-29
25 And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
NKJV

Lk 22:31-32... "Simon ... strengthen your brethren".

Luke 22:31-32
31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."
NKJV

The context of this is that Peter declared that he would never deny Christ and then proceeded to become the apostle who is most noted for his denial, 3 times of Christ.

Further as shown above, the job of strengthening the brethren was given to all the church leaders.

Lk 10:1-2, 16; Jn 13:20; 2 Cor 5:20; Gal 4:14; Acts 5:1-5... "vicars" (substitutes) of Christ.

The word "vicar" means replacement, so that in itself is interesting, but let's examine these references. I would also like to note that you posted this to support the Primacy of Peter, and yet few if any of these passages refer to Peter as an individual, and some not at all.

Lk 10:1-2

Luke 10:1-3
10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. 2 Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.
NKJV

How do you get Peter as a substitute for Jesus out of this? Did you read these verses before you copied them off that website and pasted them here?

Lk 10:16

Luke 10:16
16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."
NKJV

This is not referring to Peter, but to the 70, and has nothing to do with "substitutes" for Jesus.

Luke 10:17
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
NKJV

Jn 13:20

John 13:19-20
20 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me."
NKJV

Look at the context. This is referring to all the Apostles, and has nothing to do with "substitutes" for Jesus.

2 Cor 5:20

2 Cor 5:19-20
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
NKJV

Paul here is speaking to the church at Corinth, therefore this is referring to all believers. It calls us ambassadors, not substitutes for the Lord. An ambassador represents, he does not substitute for the country's leader.

Gal 4:14

Gal 4:14-15
14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
NKJV

An angel is a messenger - he ({aul) was a messenger for Jesus.

As for receiving him as they would have received Jesus, consider then how you might interpret this passage:

Matt 25:40
40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
NKJV

Does this mean, in your theology, that all the poor, sick and the needy are "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
NKJV

Does this mean, in your theology, that all the poor, sick and the needy are "?

Acts 5:1-5

Acts 5:1-4
5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
NKJV

How do you get this one to mean substitutes for Jesus?

ScottRC

Aug 10, 2008, 01:25 PM

Below is a list of various references to the Primacy of Peter.
Two things...

First, there is a big leap from Primacy (pretty well accepted by both Catholic and Protestant alike) and INFALLIBLE SUPREMACY.

Secondly, this probably should be a new thread.:)

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 01:31 PM

Two things...

First, there is a big leap from Primacy (pretty well accepted by both Catholic and Protestant alike)

I know of very few protestant groups who would accept primacy of any single man (other than Jesus). It would be interesting to know what "protestant" groups you are thinking of.

and INFALLIBLE SUPREMACY.

Infallible primacy is a relatively recent doctrine even in Roman Catholicism.

Secondly, this probably should be a new thread.:)

I agree.

JoeT777

Aug 10, 2008, 02:56 PM

Two things....

First, there is a big leap from Primacy (pretty well accepted by both Catholic and Protestant alike) and INFALLIBLE SUPREMACY.

Secondly, this probably should be a new thread.:)

I agree. I've got one more response for Tj3 and I'll get back on topic. I'll have to think through starting a new thread. I'm not sure I can dedicate the time that will no doubt be needed.

Semper Fi; Stand strong, It is he that giveth strength to the weary, and increaseth force and might ... But they that hope in the Lord shall renew their strength, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint.

God's peace be with you sir.

JoeT

JoeT777

Aug 10, 2008, 03:17 PM

This was already addressed in my previous post. I see nothing in your post which counters what I said previous for this part of the question, nor have you responded to what T said, so it stands as is.
I don't care what the men in your denomination believe. I care what God said in His word.
But that is not what it says. That is your private interpretation.

Let’s address this once again; please refer to my “denomination” as a Church, (capitalized), if for no other reason than for a modicum of respect for me. I take your use of “denomination” as disrespect to the Catholic Church (at least it always seems to be couched that way). I ask that you address the Catholic faith with the same respect you would give yours. Reasonable men can agree to disagree (and I took you to be reasonable); but disrespect is a mark of immaturity and ignorance.

What were the keys that Jesus says that He is giving? We see that the Pharisees had previously held the keys: Luke 11:52 52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered." NKJV
The keys were knowledge, but what knowledge would bind people and what knowledge was it that the Pharisees did not use to loose themselves by entering in? It was the key of the truth and specifically the truth of the gospel. The Pharisees were the priests who had the key of truth by which they could guide the people into salvation, and instead of loosing the keys to open the door, they bound the key, took it away from the people and bound themselves by not using it. Jesus gave the keys to the disciples. We see in Matthew 16:13 that he was speaking to the disciples:

The gospel was not given just to one man, but to the disciples to use to take into the word to bring salvation to the people. Note that even the Pharisees were not given the keys, but Luke 11:52 says that they took the keys. Who from? It was from the people of Israel. The keys were never intended to be in the hands of only some people or one person, but Jesus took the keys from the Pharisees and gave them to the disciples, people who had already entered into their salvation and who knew that to use the keys, they had to give them to the people, that they too might enter in. If they use the keys, people will no longer be bound and can enter in and be saved. It is the keys of knowledge that loose men to be free in Christ and be no longer bound by sin.

This rendition of the keys of knowledge being the same sense used in Matthew makes no sense at all; it hurts (painfully so) credulity.

Mat 16:15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In verse 17 Jesus is obviously pleased seeing that this knowledge didn’t come from human reason, but rather the knowledge was a Grace from Aba (I’m told, that Christ was the first to refer to God as Aba [Father] – did you know that? Interesting isn’t it). So as a reward, or as acknowledgement, you would have Jesus say, Woe to you Peter... you have not gained access, yet you have stopped those who wished to enter! And thereafter say I will build a church on your faith to which the gates of hell will not prevail. Excuse me for finding this impossible to swallow. It doesn’t even meet you definition of “scripture interprets scripture.”

You made the claim that the keys are the key of David mentioned in Isaiah 22:20-23.

The keys of heaven are like (similar to) the keys of the House of David, a mark of authority, a mark of primacy. What was NOT said was that the keys to heaven = keys to the House of David.

But that is not the case. Jesus addresses that in the book of Revelation: Rev 3:7-8 7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens": NKJV So Jesus has and uses that key alone. Jesus has the key and He alone uses it to open and shut.

Like Fred, you are copying and pasting from the "Catholic Apologists Cheat Sheet" website without giving credit. As I showed when I refuted Fred, you need to read these before blindly posting them. Many of them have no bearing whatsoever on the topic., and the rest are refuted by reading the context. But I need to head off to breakfast right now. I'll refute these later. I'll deal with this list later.

It’s interesting that you should bring up the book of Revelations because it was one point that I didn’t properly address the plain and simple reading of Matt 16:15-19; especially, the Key of David that the Holy One opens and no man shuts. Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church of Philadelphia write: These things saith the Holy One and the true one, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and no man shutteth, shutteth and no man openeth: 8 I know thy works. Behold, I have given before thee a door opened, which no man can shut: because thou hast a little strength and hast kept my word and hast not denied my name. The key of the House of David relate to the same earthly keys given Eliacim, son of Helcias. "the key of the house of David" is conferred upon Eliacim, the son of Helcias, as the symbol of full and unlimited authority over the Kingdom of Juda. This too would be a direct reference to the Primacy of authority, a very good reason to accept St. Peter as the Prince of the Church Militant. But I would suggest it wasn’t the set of keys conferred on St. Peter, the keys to heaven the right to bind or loose in heaven and earth. The reason is that these keys are located in heaven, held by an angel church that is using the keys to keep open the door, presumably the door of holy righteousness. Another reason I don’t think they are the same keys is because we see three sets of keys in sacred Scripture, the Keys of Heaven, the Key of the bottomless pit (hell), and the Keys of the House of David. Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet: and I saw a star fall from heaven upon the earth. And there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit. But in Revelations, where John is escorted through God’s Kingdom in Heaven, we don’t hear of the Key’s of Heaven. Are we to presume that there are Keys to earthly kingdoms, hellish kingdoms, but no keys to heaven in heaven? And the reason, the Keys to Heaven reside with the Successors of St. Peter.

Yes, I did quote something without giving due credit. I corrected the problem.

The Truth is and will always be, we as mortal men can not reveal unto each other. For it is written only the Father which is in heaven reveals.
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
The revelation of what the Father has given us all, is written in scripture. Not part of what is written but all that is written. Why it was written is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them
committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
This is written...They, the disciples included, followed the spiritual ROCK and the ROCK was Christ.
This is written...Christ is with us every minutes of everyday. We have "HIM" if you choose to have "HIM" Why would you want a mortal person to follow? Do you need someone or some object as the example of those people did when Moses went up on the mount unto God?
This is written that those having victory with heaven open unto them. They were singing the song of Moses.... Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.
Sing the Song of Moses
I'm sorry, I don't understand any of that. Please tell me in your own words without quoting scripture. Bible "speak" is so full of metaphors, absolutes, twisted sentences, and backward talk that it is no wonder different faiths can't agree on a single interpretation. So please, in lay language tell me why it matters if there is a purgatory or not when you as Christians should strive to live your best life anyway and God is a forgiving God.
Cozyk: I’m not sure what’s being said here either. I’m glad it was you that asked the question.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 03:34 PM

Let's address this once again; please refer to my “denomination” as a Church, (capitalized), if for no other reason than for a modicum of respect for me.

Why? It is a denomination, and why do you insist that we use capitalization? I would not use capitalization for any other church when calling it a church, why do you demand special consideration for yours? And you did not appear to care about other when you call your denomination "The Church", suggesting that the rest of us are not part of "The Church". I have never said that it is not a church. I often call it the Roman Church or Roman Catholic Church, but if I call it "a church", it will be with a lower case "c", as I would with any other church. The term denomination is not derogatory - many churches use that themselves, but you do not seem to realize how arrogant your terminology comes across. If you choose to refer to your denomination as "The Church", then I tend to revert to calling it "your denomination" so that we are clear what it is that you are referring to. So your choice of terminology will, to a degree, determine mine.

This rendition of the keys of knowledge being the same sense used in Matthew makes no sense at all; it hurts (painfully so) credulity.

I notice that in your two paragraphs that you did not address the points that I raised.

So as a reward, or as acknowledgement, you would have Jesus say, Woe to you Peter... you have not gained access, yet you have stopped those who wished to enter!

Did you even read what I said? Go back and have another read of it. I do not know how you got this from what I said.

The keys of heaven are like (similar to) the keys of the House of David, a mark of authority, a mark of primacy. What was NOT said was that the keys to heaven = keys to the House of David.

Explain how you see any similarity.

It's interesting that you should bring up the book of Revelations because it was one point that I didn't properly address the plain and simple reading of Matt 16:15-19; especially, the Key of David that the Holy One opens and no man shuts. Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church of Philadelphia write: These things saith the Holy One and the true one, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and no man shutteth, shutteth and no man openeth: 8 I know thy works. Behold, I have given before thee a door opened, which no man can shut: because thou hast a little strength and hast kept my word and hast not denied my name. The key of the House of David relate to the same earthly keys given Eliacim, son of Helcias. "the key of the house of David" is conferred upon Eliacim, the son of Helcias, as the symbol of full and unlimited authority over the Kingdom of Juda. This too would be a direct reference to the Primacy of authority, a very good reason to accept St. Peter as the Prince of the Church Militant.

Except Jesus has the key and Peter doesn't. Your logic escapes me. Nothing in scripture supports the idea that a man heads the true church. Scripture directly and explicitly says otherwise.

But I would suggest it wasn't the set of keys conferred on St. Peter,

Before we go this far, you need to provide some evidence that there were keys given solely to Peter. You have not validated that yet.

the keys to heaven the right to bind or loose in heaven and earth. The reason is that these keys are located in heaven, held by an angel church that is using the keys to keep open the door, presumably the door of holy righteousness. Another reason I don't think they are the same keys is because we see three sets of keys in sacred Scripture, the Keys of Heaven, the Key of the bottomless pit (hell), and the Keys of the House of David. Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet: and I saw a star fall from heaven upon the earth. And there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit. But in Revelations, where John is escorted through God's Kingdom in Heaven, we don't hear of the Key's of Heaven. Are we to presume that there are Keys to earthly kingdoms, hellish kingdoms, but no keys to heaven in heaven? And the reason, the Keys to Heaven reside with the Successors of St. Peter.

Again, your logic escapes me. You appear to be making presumptions which you have not validated.

Yes, I did quote something without giving due credit. I corrected the problem.

Good. In the future I would suggest that you also check out the references before posting them. The originator does not appear to have done much if any validation before being posting the references on internet.

Lilmkiss

Aug 10, 2008, 04:14 PM

Scott, Timing? So what happened at the time Christ was nailed to the cross? I believe Christ picked the timing. So once again I rebuke the idea that there is another time for it to take place again.. It would be nailing Christ to the Cross again. REBUKE!

100% right and again if you are going to make a claim that Jesus is part of or is pergatory show scripture or be quiet scott.

ScottRC

Aug 10, 2008, 04:55 PM

100% right and again if you are going to make a claim that Jesus is part of or is pergatory show scripture or be quiet scott.
"Show scripture"..?

How many times do you have to be reminded that I don't subscribe to the heresy of sola scriptura? I've given my reasonings, showing Scripture and Tradition... and I've yet to see anyone offer anything reasonable that shows purgatory is a non-Biblical concept...

And please try to show some manners... this is a public forum and you don't have the right to tell ANYONE to "be quiet"... it's rude and very unChristian.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 06:04 PM

"Show scripture"..?
How many times do you have to be reminded that I don't subscribe to the heresy of sola scriptura? I've given my reasonings, showing Scripture and Tradition...

I don't subscribe to the heresy of establishing doctrine based upon manmade tradition.

and I've yet to see anyone offer anything reasonable that shows purgatory is a non-Biblical concept...

You keep your eyes closed when reading the posts? :D

And please try to show some manners... this is a public forum and you don't have the right to tell ANYONE to "be quiet"... it's rude and very unChristian.

Just like you don't have the right to call people names.

JoeT777

Aug 10, 2008, 06:31 PM

Why? It is a denomination, and why do you insist that we use capitalization? I would not use capitalization for any other church when calling it a church, why do you demand special consideration for yours? And you did not appear to care about other when you call your denomination "The Church", suggesting that the rest of us are not part of "The Church". I have never said that it is not a church. I often call it the Roman Church or Roman Catholic Church, but if I call it "a church", it will be with a lower case "c", as I would with any other church. The term denomination is not derogatory - many churches use that themselves, but you do not seem to realize how arrogant your terminology comes across. If you choose to refer to your denomination as "The Church", then I tend to revert to calling it "your denomination" so that we are clear what it is that you are referring to. So your choice of terminology will, to a degree, determine mine.

Ok Tom, I get the picture.

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 07:33 PM

Scripture showing the existence of Purgatory has been provided here.
No meaningful scripture has been shown to prove Purgatory does not exist.
That is the way I see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl

Aug 10, 2008, 07:36 PM

No meaningful scripture has been shown to prove Purgatory does not exist.

Of course it has, Fred. I provided it pages ago.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 07:39 PM

Scripture showing the existence of Purgatory has been provided here.
No meaningful scripture has been shown to prove Purgatory does not exist.
That is the way I see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

That copy and paste list that you found on internet and provided on this thread was refuted quite a while back. If you wish, or keep claiming that those references prove purgatory, I'd be happy to re-post.

There have been pages of scripture which show that purgatory is not possible and not scriptural posted by a number of people, but not yet has one reference been provided which supports purgatory when examine in context of scripture.

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 08:05 PM

I don't subscribe to the heresy of establishing doctrine based upon manmade tradition.

But you do, its called "Sola Scriptura".

You keep your eyes closed when reading the posts? :D

Just like you don't have the right to call people names.

I guess we've arrived at the point we should agree to disagree.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 08:07 PM

Scripture showing the existence of Purgatory has been provided here.
No meaningful scripture has been shown to prove Purgatory does not exist.
That is the way I see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The problem is that Protestants recognize ANY interpretation of Scripture except the Catholic interpretation of Scripture.

Peace

Sincerely,

De Maria

Fr_Chuck

Aug 10, 2008, 08:08 PM

Yes those groups that do not accept it, don't, and those that do will.
They look at the same verses in the bible and come up with different meanings

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 08:09 PM

But you do, its called "Sola Scriptura".

Only if you call scripture "heresy"

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 08:10 PM

Of course it has, Fred. I provided it pages ago.

I didn't see it. Please show me.

Otherwise, I'll have to stick with:

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Which explicitly describe the spiritual concept which the Catholic Church calls purgatory.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Wondergirl

Aug 10, 2008, 08:10 PM

The problem is that Protestants recognize ANY interpretation of Scripture except the Catholic interpretation of Scripture.
Not quite. Protestants don't accept Catholic traditions that have become doctrines with their own unique interpretations of Scripture. Protestants are on the same page, but not necessarily the Catholic page.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 08:15 PM

I didn't see it. Please show me.

These were refuted so many times...

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom. Note that the suffering referred to here was in the flesh, not after death.

1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

Lilmkiss

Aug 10, 2008, 08:18 PM

Yes those groups that do not accept it, don't, and those that do will.
They look at the same verses in the bible and come up with different meanings

Then I have to ask you which is the truth? These men have not shown any scriptural evidence for there claim that pergatory exists (except for things taken out of context further meaning that they only take one verse and construe what it was used for instead of using it in the context of the verses before and after.) yet we have shown these verses in full context to show that these are lies if they can give us scripture in full context then I am sure we would be willing to listen.

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 08:34 PM

These were refuted so many times...

Nah!

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom.

Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:

Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom....25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Note how the angels brought Lazarus to Abraham's bosom and Lazareth is there comforted.

Is that a place which could be described as a prison? I think not.

Note that the suffering referred to here was in the flesh, not after death.

Please divide the word rightly. Divine longsuffering refers to God's patience dealing with the disobedient souls of that time.

There is no direct mention of suffering in this passage at all, except to mention that these spirits were in prison. And prisons are places of punishment and therefore of suffering.

Finally, I'm surprised you believe in a place called Abraham's bosom? So do we. I thought Protestant's only believed that Abraham's bosom was in heaven? After all, being absent from the body is being present with the Lord. Since when did you begin to believe in a place, separate from heaven and hell, called Abraham's bosom?

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

Sooo, these works are destroyed? Where are these works which are destroyed? Are they carried in the man's soul? Or are they something apart from the soul? Does the fire come to earth and burn down grass huts and other works of men made of flammable materials?

And if you decide that these works which are destroyed are contained in the man's soul, does that not mean that the man's soul is purified of dead works?

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u

Aug 10, 2008, 08:40 PM

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom... 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Okay so now the beggar is comforted
And the rich man is tormented

How does that prove Purgatory?

Lilmkiss

Aug 10, 2008, 08:41 PM

"Show scripture"....???

How many times do you have to be reminded that I don't subscribe to the heresy of sola scriptura? I've given my reasonings, showing Scripture and Tradition... and I've yet to see anyone offer anything reasonable that shows purgatory is a non-Biblical concept....

And please try to show some manners.... this is a public forum and you don't have the right to tell ANYONE to "be quiet"... it's rude and very unChristian.

Yes we where told in the bible by Jesus that we are to test everything with scripture again I will show you a verse to support! What I just said yet again. Jesus told the leaders of the synagogue to be quiet, when they where spreading lies and deceat. So I see no diffrence of when I told you to be quiet. Sola Scripture? How exactly is Sola Scripture heresy? Please do explain? And just as well to be ingnorant is very unChristain as well.

1 John 4
Test the Spirits
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets (this is not part of scripture but this is also pointing to the people such as the pope)have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

If it was Herresy then this set of verses shouldn't be in the bible.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 08:45 PM

Nah!

Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:

Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom....25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Note how the angels brought Lazarus to Abraham's bosom and Lazareth is there comforted.

Is that a place which could be described as a prison? I think not.

That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.

Please divide the word rightly. Divine longsuffering refers to God's patience dealing with the disobedient souls of that time.

Perhaps you missed the reference to the flood.

Finally, I'm surprised you believe in a place called Abraham's bosom? So do we. I thought Protestant's only believed that Abraham's bosom was in heaven?

I cannot tell you if protestants dpo or don't. I am not a protestant. But I can say that I have never heard anyone claim that Abraham's bosom was in heaven.

Sooo, these works are destroyed? Where are these works which are destroyed? Are they carried in the man's soul? Or are they something apart from the soul? Does the fire come to earth and burn down grass huts and other works of men made of flammable materials?

This is speaking symbolically - an "act" cannot be destroyed. In any case, it has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory, nor with men being burned in purgatory.

What this is referring to, if you read the context, is showing how the work which are done for Christ live on whereas those not done for Christ amount to nothing in eternity. Those done for Christ result in the rewards.

Read it in context. I am telling you just what it says.

Lilmkiss

Aug 10, 2008, 08:46 PM

Nah!

Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:

Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom....25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Note how the angels brought Lazarus to Abraham's bosom and Lazareth is there comforted.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Again this is talking about two living men that died one went to heven one went to hell nothing more this is not proof for pergatory.

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 08:49 PM

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

again this is talking about two living men that died one went to heven one went to hell nothing more this is not proof for pergatory.

Lets see, a soul in hell calls Abraham "Father", begs Abraham for salvation for his brothers. Abraham turns around and addresses this soul as "son".

Since when are the souls in heaven and hell on such good terms? I thought there was a war going on?

Sincerely,

De Maria

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 08:50 PM

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 08:51 PM

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 08:53 PM

Wondergirl,
Those Scripture passages that have been posted supposedly concerning purgatory don't and they DO NOT PROVE that Purgatory does not exist.Therefore they are not meaningful regarding that issue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

You have never dealt with the passages put forward - just passing judgment with your own private interpretation over God's word is not convincing.

N0help4u

Aug 10, 2008, 08:55 PM

It is an allegory to make a point

The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away,

N0help4u

Aug 10, 2008, 08:57 PM

Arcura
Note: De Marie is the one that keeps bringing up Lazarus post #445 and previous ones

De Marie:
Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:

I agree where ever Abraham's bosom is the story is nothing to do with Purgatory?

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 08:58 PM

De Maria,
I stand with you on the Purgatory question.
I see bible passages that support its existence but none that prove it dose not exist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl

Aug 10, 2008, 09:01 PM

Sounds like a lively place!

YouTube - Mormon Tabernacle Choir - Rock a My Soul (Spiritual) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9LLQxnusk)

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:04 PM

De Maria,
I stand with you on the Purgatory question.
I see bible passages that support its existence but none that prove it dose not exist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Then bring forward the verses that support its existence.

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 09:05 PM

That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.

I consider a place of confinement a jail. Apparently you want to put a different spin on it than the actual people who actually know the language and what it means.
1 Peter 3:18-20 (New International Version)
19through whomalso he went and preached to the spirits in prison

KJV
[I]19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Literally everyone interprets it "prison", except you.

What makes you a greater authority than they?

Perhaps you missed the reference to the flood.

No. But we are no speaking of the reference to the "prison" which you wish were not there. But it is. And you can't INTERPRET it away.

I cannot tell you if protestants dpo or don't. I am not a protestant.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Since you protest only about Catholic doctrine, you are a protestant.

But I can say that I have never heard anyone claim that Abraham's bosom was in heaven.

Then you admit that there is more to the after life than just heaven and hell?

Read Lilmkiss's message for the commonly held Protestant view that Abraham's bosom is in heaven.

This is speaking symbolically - an "act" cannot be destroyed.In any case, it has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory, nor with men being burned in purgatory.

So, there is no actual fire and nothing is being burned or destroyed?

What this is referring to, if you read the context, is showing how the work which are done for Christ live on whereas those not done for Christ amount to nothing in eternity. Those done for Christ result in the rewards.

Now you're putting a top spin on Scripture. Read it more carefully:

14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS.

Read it in context. I am telling you just what it says.

No, you're telling me what you wish it said. But the context is clear. It is purgatory. A place of purifying fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u

Aug 10, 2008, 09:07 PM

When Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison that was a place where they waited UNTIL Jesus was sacrificed it was no longer needed once Jesus paid for our sins.

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 09:07 PM

Fred,

You have never dealt with the passages put forward - just passing judgment with your own private interpretation over God's word is not convincing.

No, no. You've got that confused. We are interpreting Scripture according to the tradition of the Church.

You are interpreting Scripture according to your private interpretation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 09:10 PM

When Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison that was a place where they waited UNTIL Jesus was sacrificed it was no longer needed once Jesus paid for our sins.

So Jesus did away with that prison? Where is that in Scripture?

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:11 PM

I consider a place of confinement a jail.

Perhaps you ought to consult a Greek lexicon.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Since you protest only about Catholic doctrine, you are a protestant.

Then you must be a Mormon (ccc #460 says that men become God)

Then you admit that there is more to the after life than just heaven and hell?

Not now. Nohelp4u explained it nicely

Read Lilmkiss's message for the commonly held Protestant view that Abraham's bosom is in heaven.

I am not interested in either a protestant or Catholic view. I focus on what scripture says. If you want to argue with protestants, go for it.

So, there is no actual fire and nothing is being burned or destroyed?

Do you think that acts catch fire? Hmmm could solve the energy crisis!

N0help4u

Aug 10, 2008, 09:11 PM

Hmmm that is really something that Tom interprets the Bible according to his OWN private interpretation yet I and many others BELIEVE exactly as Tjs does so that must mean that anything contrary to the RCC is considered OWN private interpretation?

Wondergirl

Aug 10, 2008, 09:11 PM

You are interpreting Scripture according to your private interpretation.

No, no, no. Tom did a nice job using Scripture to support Scripture. It wasn't his interpretation, but what the Bible actually says.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:12 PM

You are interpreting Scripture according to your private interpretation.

The private interpretation of the men in your denomination.

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 09:15 PM

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:16 PM

Tj3,
DON'T try to pull that game here.
The passages supporting the existence of Purgatory have been posted here.
You do not believe what they say, but that is your problem not mine or of those other people here who have posted them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Are you referring to your copy and paste from the "Catholic Apologists Cheat Sheet website" that you did not give credit to?

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 09:18 PM

Heaven and Hell? I thought that we just agreed that Abraham's Bosom was not heaven. On the other hand, there is no suffering there so it provides no support for your mythical place called purgatory.

Come now TJ. You know I was addressing Lilmkiss in that response. And Lilmkiss believes that Abraham's Bosom is in heaven.

However, you and I have danced this dance before. Let me repeat. Look at the other soul, Dives, the Rich Man.

Where is he?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

You like to look for the original language behind the words. What is the Greek word here translated "hell"?

And since when do souls in hell and souls in heaven addresses each other as father and son?

And since when do souls in the hell of the damned, in eternal punishment, seek to aid and comfort their brethren on earth?

I'm interested in your answer to all those questions. But I'm sure you'll ignore them as usual.

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u

Aug 10, 2008, 09:23 PM

The Bible says JESUS was the propitiation for our sins and that we crucify him fresh by thinking that there is any other way so I still have to see how you feel you proved Purgatory.

You still have yet to explain how you can still justify a purgatory over these scriptures.
Purgatory makes these verses tossed in the garbage.

Hebrews 1:3
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 7:27-28
Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

I don't see where there is room for purgatory in any of these verses. Purgatory would make them a lie.

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 09:23 PM

No, no, no. Tom did a nice job using Scripture to support Scripture. It wasn't his interpretation, but what the Bible actually says.

Lets go over it again Wondergirl.

Tom said that prison does not mean prison. Read it yourself:

In message #448, Tom said:
That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.

So, what do you think? Is this a prison or not? That is what the KJV and the NIV both say. Do you interpret it differently and on what basis?

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u

Aug 10, 2008, 09:25 PM

De Marie
Acrura even stated #451 that Lazarus/Abraham's bosom has nothing to do with Purgatory.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:27 PM

Where is he?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

You like to look for the original language behind the words. What is the Greek word here translated "hell"?

As you should know, there are several words in scripture used to describe hell.

Luke 16:23-24
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV

Notice the gulf?

Luke 16:25-27
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
NKJV

And since when do souls in hell and souls in heaven addresses each other as father and son?

Who said that this was heaven? You are arguing a strawman.
And so what if Abraham chose that word - who are you to judge him for doing so?

And since when do souls in the hell of the damned, in eternal punishment, seek to aid and comfort their brethren on earth?

I could not tell you. I have never been in hell. Have you? Thjat being the case, I'll accept the scriptural account.

I'm interested in your answer to all those questions. But I'm sure you'll ignore them as usual.

Can't avoid the nasty crack, can you?

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:29 PM

Lets go over it again Wondergirl.

Tom said that prison does not mean prison. Read it yourself:

In message #448, Tom said:
That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.

So, what do you think? Is this a prison or not? That is what the KJV and the NIV both say. Do you interpret it differently and on what basis?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Maria,

Are you aware that in translating words from one language to another, there is some loss in the connotation of the word? And yes, in English, prison means prison, and yes, the Greek word can mean prison when read in that context. But the Greek word carries a wider meaning which you appear to wish to ignore.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:30 PM

De Marie
Acrura even stated #451 that Lazarus/Abraham's bosom has nothing to do with Purgatory.

Ooooooooohhhhh - I wonder is De Maria will accuse Fred of going against the interpretation of the Magisterium! ;)

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 09:32 PM

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 09:37 PM

De Maria,
I'll watch for Tj3's answer to those questions.
I think you are right he will ignore them.
But he might try to twist them as is his habit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 09:37 PM

Perhaps you ought to consult a Greek lexicon.

I have. And you know what, just because I consulted a Greek lexicon, that doesn't magically make me an expert in Greek. I don't know the grammar, the meaning or the context. I don't even know the pronunciation. I have to admit, in all humility, that the experts who interpreted the Bibles know better than I do, the language they were interpreting into English.

How about you? Do you know better than the experts who interpreted the KJV and the NIV? What are your Greek credentials? Are you a native Greek speaker or an expert in Greek?

Then you must be a Mormon (ccc #460 says that men become God)

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":"For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 460 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/460.htm)

This is from Scripture:

John 10 35 If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Jesus said that. But I forgot, you don't believe what Jesus said if it doesn't agree with your theology.

Here's another confirmation of that doctrine:
2 Peter 1 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

Not now. Nohelp4u explained it nicely

Obviously she follows your doctrine. Not the Scriptures because the Scriptures don't say what you say.

I am not interested in either a protestant or Catholic view. I focus on what scripture says. If you want to argue with protestants, go for it.

No, you focus on what you can make Scipture say.

Do you think that acts catch fire? Hmmm could solve the energy crisis!

I believe Scripture.

1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

This is more proof that you like to put your own spin on what Scripture says.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Lilmkiss

Aug 10, 2008, 09:38 PM

Lets see, a soul in hell calls Abraham "Father", begs Abraham for salvation for his brothers. Abraham turns around and addresses this soul as "son".

Since when are the souls in heaven and hell on such good terms? I thought there was a war going on?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Again this man did not receave forgiveness and then he asked if he could just go back once to warn his brothers that there punishment lay ahead but the thing is this was also denied to him. Understand that those in heven and hell understand why each are where they are. They do not judge each other becaues they have already been judged meaning that there is no means of hostility toward each other! This preconseption that hell is out of God's control and that Hell is at war with Heven is a serous fallicy

Ps. Heven and Hell are not at war God made hell as a prison and whoever enters does not leave God is in 100% control of Heven and hell

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:39 PM

Tj3,
I am referring to what I and others here posted. Some posted the location of the passages for those who bother to look them up and the others I mentioned posted that passages word for word.
I thought that you read what I clearly said.
But it appears that you did not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Okay Fred, despite posting my previous response, and pointing you to my previous post, apparently you missed my response to your copy and paste of someone else's website, so here it is again.

Lk 12:59

Let's look at the context:

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

1 Pet 1:7

1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.

Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom as we have previously discussed.

Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Col 1:24

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

We cannot take scripture out of context.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

There is one sin for which we need not pray because the is no forgiveness.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

Wondergirl

Aug 10, 2008, 09:40 PM

And since when do souls in the hell of the damned, in eternal punishment, seek to aid and comfort their brethren on earth?
Since Jesus told this story as one of his parables, to point out (taken from orthodox.net) that Our Holy Father Abraham, among his numerous virtues, was distinguished in the minds of the Jews for his hospitality. This is also associated with salvation.

"It may here be observed, that all who are offended by us are exposed to our view. But the rich man sees Lazarus not with any other righteous man, but in Abraham's bosom. For Abraham was full of love, but the man is convicted of cruelty. Abraham sitting before his door followed after those that passed by, and brought them into his house, the other turned away even them that abode within his gate." (St John Chrysostom)

To the world, the death of Lazarus, was a non-event. Someone had to grab him, because after all, he would start to smell, and throw him somewhere, into some potter's field. No one came to pray for him. No one cared. No one knew him. The rich man might have noticed after two or three weeks, "Oh the beggar is not there anymore. I don't have to step over him anymore. That's good". His death was of no consequence. It did not cause a ripple in the life of that time.

But he did NOT die alone, and his death was a matter of great rejoicing in the heavens, because the angels escorted him into Abraham's bosom. What does it say about those that die who are righteous, and the appearances, both in this world , and the REAL appearances in the next? Solomon says, "But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery, And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace. For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality. And having been a little chastised" ... Lazarus' wounds were a little bit of chastisement mind you. Don't look at the appearances, look at the truth! And "they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself. As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering. And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble." (Wisdom 3:1 - 7) So it is with the righteous when they die. The world sees a false picture, but we know the truth.

The rich man's death, although accompanied by great fanfare in the world, with paid mourners, and the playing of flutes, was an unimportant event in the heavens. He was merely buried. This burial, in the bowels of the earth, is meant here to signify that he descending into the lowest depths of Hell.

"He (the rich man, Ed.) died then indeed in body, but his soul was dead before. For he did none of the works of the soul. All that warmth which issues from the love of our neighbor had fled, and he was more dead than his body. But no one is spoken of as having ministered to the rich man's burial as to that of Lazarus. Because when he lived pleasantly in the broad road, he had many busy flatterers; when he came to his end, all forsook him. For it simply follows, and was buried in hell. But his soul also when living was buried, enshrined in its body as it were in a tomb." (St John Chrysostom)

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 09:42 PM

De Maria.
Right again.
I also believe what Scripture clearly says, not what some person wants it to say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

N0help4u

Aug 10, 2008, 09:44 PM

Okay Fred, despite posting my previous response, and pointing you to my previous post, apparently you missed my response to your copy and paste of someone else's website, so here it is again.

Lk 12:59

Let's look at the context:

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

1 Pet 1:7

1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but each and every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.

Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom as we have previously discussed.

Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Col 1:24

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

We cannot take scripture out of context.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

There is one sin for which we need not pray because the is no forgiveness.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV
Exactly yet we are the ones that are not reading/getting what they are saying!! Go figure?? :confused:

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:44 PM

De Maria.
Right again.
I also believe what Scripture clearly says, not what some person wants it to say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Then I trust that you will look at what scripture actually says in those references that you copied and pasted from internet.

De Maria

Aug 10, 2008, 09:47 PM

As you should know, there are several words in scripture used to describe hell.

Luke 16:23-24
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV

Yes, there are. And what does Hades mean in Greek?

Notice the gulf?

Yes.

Luke 16:25-27
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
NKJV

I agree that there is a gulf fixed between Purgatory and Heaven. But it is temporary.

Who said that this was heaven? You are arguing a strawman.

No. But I've got you to admit that there is another place in the after life besides heaven and hell. Now you have admitted to Abraham's bosom and Hades.

And so what if Abraham chose that word - who are you to judge him for doing so?

Not just Abraham chose a loving word but so did the Rich man in "hell"?

I could not tell you. I have never been in hell. Have you? Thjat being the case, I'll accept the scriptural account.

Well, you've admitted this place is "hades". Now all you need to do is give us the Greek definition of the word.

Can't avoid the nasty crack, can you?

Thanks for answering the questions this time. The "nasty crack" as you call it, was designed to enlighten you as to your past behavior. You usually ignore questions which we ask you. At least, that is my experience.

Sincerely,

De Maria

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 09:48 PM

Tj3,
You interpret those passages your way. I do not and will not.
But as I said, that there is NO bible passages that PROVE the Purgatory does not exist.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:55 PM

Yes, there are. And what does Hades mean in Greek?

Maria,

I cannot keep doing all your work for you. You eventually have to do some of your own. As we have stated before, hades is hell. And it is across a gulf from Abraham's Bosom (not the same place).

I agree that there is a gulf fixed between Purgatory and Heaven. But it is temporary.

Ah, now you add your own private interpretation into it. There is no purgatory, nor anything that looks like purgatory here. That is the problem that you are and have been facing from the start.

No. But I've got you to admit that there is another place in the after life besides heaven and hell. Now you have admitted to Abraham's bosom and Hades.

Not anymore.. that appears to be one of the points that you are missing. The other is that scripture has no description of purgatory here or anywhere else.

Thanks for answering the questions this time. The "nasty crack" as you call it, was designed to enlighten you as to your past behavior. You usually ignore questions which we ask you. At least, that is my experience.

Maria,

I told you before, and you agreed with my approach - when your posts get to be too long, I pick what I think are the key points and respond to them.

To come back now and get nasty about that is at best inappropriate.

Now, I am under absolutely no obligation to play 20 questions with you. You are a grown woman - do your own work, argue your own points, and don't get nasty because someone doesn't do all your work for you.

Tj3

Aug 10, 2008, 09:56 PM

Tj3,
You interpret those passages your way. I do not and will not.
But as I said, that there is NO bible passages that PROVE the Purgatory does not exist.

I read and posted what the scripture says in context. Close your eyes to what it says if you will. That is indeed your choice.

arcura

Aug 10, 2008, 09:59 PM

Tj3,
I have told you before that I did not copy and paste those passages from the internet.
I first used then years ago during bible study classes long before I had a computer.
It make no difference really for you do a lot of copy and past work here and on other boards.
What are you, some privilege character who can copy and past but anyone else that does you try to belittle.
In doing so you just belittle yourself.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Lilmkiss

Aug 10, 2008, 10:00 PM

Come now TJ. You know I was addressing Lilmkiss in that response. And Lilmkiss believes that Abraham's Bosom is in heaven.

You took what I said out of context. I do by no means believe this and FYI it was the waiting place where the people waiting for the coming of Jesus Christ's death on the cross and that is when they where preached to for 3 days and when't into Heven(including the crimanal on the right side of Jesus when he died I am shure you can find this scripture by yourself as further proof for my statement but here it is anyway.

The Crucifixion
26As they led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30Then
" 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!"
And to the hills, "Cover us!" '[d] 31For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
32Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."[e] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

35The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."

36The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."

38There was a written notice above him, which read:|sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

My question is why would Jesus say this if it was not true? Wouldn't he have said first you will spend time in pergatory then with me in heven?