Donna Mae posted in topic "Is there a God?" :

"I believe it as soon as I see it. The problem with this statement is that when you see it (the Judgement), it will be to late to believe then".

Besides that that only MAY BE TRUE (as it is subject to the existence of that deity which many of you call "God", and if there is any judgement at all), there is another problem with this point of view.

YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (your and any other) God : what can one do?

Born into a Christian family I rejected the belief in (any) God(s) at the early age of 12 years.
I did not change any other habits and viewpoints. I have not murdered anyone, pay my dues where demanded from me, do a lot of unpaid volunteer activities, am a member of an international disaster team, still help old women to the other side of the street (if they want to go there), and am open to other views (i.e. also to Christianity). But I do not believe in the existence of God.

Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the wellknown ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?

Most of you are all 99,999.999.999.999.999% (1) convinced that there is that deity called God with all these characteristic described to it, while I am 99,999.999.999.999.999% (1) convinced that the deity called God does not exist, and that there is no ´Satan`, that there are no ´Heaven and Hell`, that there is no ´Final Judgement`, etc.

Besides that everyone should be allowed to believe whatever ´feels good`, you can not force a belief upon yourself or another. I do not see any reason neither to even try to change my position. But I respect whatever you believe in.

All I do not respect are the conclusions some of you draw from your religious beliefs. Like a 6000 years old earth, or the creation myth converted into anti evolution attack (a rather intolerant approach towards those of other views, while creationists demand full tolerance towards their own views (but most of the time fail to provide themselves towards those of other views). Just as you are allowed in your belief(s), I am allowed in what I feel right !
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Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
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(1) 99,999.999.999.999.999% : sassyT claims that there is nothing you can know 100%, so 99,999.999.999.999.999% than :)
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Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?



Questioning the existence of an Almighty being is not wrong,that question could lead to research and you could be on a path of discovery of the Truth.

If you do not find the truth while you are alive,you will find the truth after death,whether the believers in an afterlife is right or those that disbelieved in an afterlife is right.You will also find answers to the question,"is there an Almighty?" beyond death,until then it is your right to search or research.

And just to let you know,Hinduism does not believe in many Gods,but they believe in One Supreme God,who manifests in different forms.

Questioning the existence of an Almighty being is not wrong,that question could lead to research and you could be on a path of discovery of the Truth.

If you do not find the truth while you are alive,you will find the truth after death,whether the believers in an afterlife is right or those that disbelieved in an afterlife is right.You will also find answers to the question,"is there an Almighty?" beyond death,until then it is your right to search or research.

And just to let you know,Hinduism does not believe in many Gods,but they believe in One Supreme God,who manifests in different forms.

1 - I´ve done enough research on that in my life. And my conclusion is clear : hamna evidence, so no truth to discover, other than that there is no proof for the existence of God !
2 - Not really. Only if theists are correct that is so. If Atheists are correct all thoughts will disappear upon dying. All we both will see is that tunnel vision with the white light at the end (a physical reaction to the brain starving of oxygen)...
3 - I have to disagree : There is a wide range of Hindu perceptions towards God. Some Hindu´s indeed have one main god (Brahman). Others make a distinct difference between multiple Gods. Hinduism is actually a collection of many different religions.

:)

My feeling on this is that it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not. What really matters is how you live your life. If you live your life by the Golden Rule, if you are basically honest and ethical (sorry ex-Gov Spitzer ;) ), then even if there is the proverbial judgement day, whoever is doing the judgement is going to look at how you lived, not what you believed.

There is a far difference from not believing personally and going out of your way to attack and try to weaken the faith of others, One is a personal belief, the other shows a more dark side, determined to fight against God. In fighting against God, you show you actually believe he exists but refuse to accept him, and beyond accepting him, you wish to battle against him.

God made it very easy, as jesus said, you are either for him or you are against him.

Can as Scott said, a person who is not religioius ( Christian, Muslim, Buddist) live a good life, yes, they can in all aspects do good works, give to the poor, they can even go into churches and be deacons

But to that, they do good works for the benefit of doing good works.

Even a Christian does not do the good works to earn any place in heaven.
But they do good works because they wish to follow the example of Christ.

If you believe in God or if you don't, it is your decision. All we can do is tell you what we believe. I believe in God because I choose to study God's word so that I will know what the truth is. You will probably never come to accept Jesus unless you want to. Know one can force you to read the Bible to see that Jesus is our Savior, and may be you wouldn't believe even if you read it.

Our only job is to warn people of the coming of Jesus, what they do with that information is between them and God. God is the one who adds to His flock, not me. I want to warn as many as I can about the Judgement because on that day I don't want someone to say to me, why didn't you tell me about Jesus? You knew the truth, why didn't you tell me? How sad that would be.

Everyone has free will, if you choose to believe, if you don't, that's up to you. I think God doesn't want us to be pests about it because He said to warn someone, once. Then warn them a second time, if they don't accept then, wipe the dust from your feet and move on.

I really get discouraged on here because I think I do spend too much time in arguments and lengthy discussions. I need to just inform those who want to know about God and Christ and that's all.

Our only job is to warn people of the coming of Jesus, what they do with that information is between them and God. God is the one who adds to His flock, not me. I want to warn as many as I can about the Judgement because on that day I don't want someone to say to me, why didn't you tell me about Jesus? You knew the truth, why didn't you tell me? How sad that would be.


The problem I have with this, Donna, is that you BELIEVE it's the truth, but you can't prove it. What happens with proselytizers like you is that you tend to have this self-righteous attitude that you know the truth and anyone who doesn't believe in it is wrong. This shows a lack of respect for other people which turns people off and ends up in arguments and bad feelings.

I am happy for you that you have found what you feel is the truth. I am glad it gives you comfort. But please don't tell me that I am not comfortable in my beliefs. Its one thing to tell people what you believe, it's a different thing to attack what others believe. And that's the line that too many people cross. I haven't read too much of what you have posted so I'm not sure whether you cross that line, but from what I've read, you come very close to it.

Sorry, but I don't have anything to prove. I state God's facts. What you do with it is up to you.

I cross that line all the time, since it is my duty and job to let others know the joy they are missing by not having Christ in their life.
And from the testomony of 1000's that did not know and latter found Christ, we know as a fact that people without him are missing things in their life. But in the end it is always the persons choice to accept or reject, but it is the duty and obligation of the Christian to give you the information so that you decide.

Chuck,

FundiEv Christianity in America is all about POLITICS... therefore, 'you all' get challenged because of your political side, as you rightly should!

"Christianity" is politics, now. All decent Americans can challenge whatever you say. :)

Yes and don't forget to vote Fr_Chuck as your write in vote.

But in many ways politics is only a side effect, since the even the courts ( Supreme Court) and Federal court appointments come from who is President and the moral direction of our nation is controlled by who gets elected.

And of course being a Christian does not take ones right to be part of the poliical process away, I am a firm beleiver that we should have a Christian party to stand up for Christian values. If every baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic and all of the churches that are suppose to stand for family values, if every member only voted for people with correct moral values, we would see a change in the direction of our nation.

A Christian doesn't have to prove anything, we know the truth. I don't call that a self-righteous attitude, because what I tell others is not for my benefit, it's for theirs and God's.

I didn't write the rules, I'm just saying if you read the Bible-you'll know what God's will is.

I have the greatest respect for others, if I didn't I wouldn't be telling them about Christ. The only reason I do this is because I care about the souls of others.

I bet this puts me over the line?

Yes, Donna and Chuck it does put you over the line. I understand where you are coming from and I don't really have any expectation that I will change you, but the fact that you feel you know the truth, when there are billions of people who believe in a different truth shows a level of arrogance and disrespect that you just can't see. And no level of argument is going to convince otherwise, because according to your belief system if you even acknowledge that someone else's belief system may be right it shakes the foundation of your faith.

But it IS arrogance to assume that other people need to be "saved". It is self-righteousness to believe that you know the truth and others don't. I have read the Bible by the way, and I know what the Bible says is God's will, but I haven't seen any proof that it is God's will. The Bible was written by men. Men who believed they knew what God's will was, but men nonetheless.

And no, you don't have the greatest respect for others, because to respect others is to allow them to believe what they want. You can't do that. I grant that you think you need to poselytize to be true to your faith. But please don't try to convince us that you are trying to save us because you trespect us. It doesn't work that way.

I concede you care about the souls of others, but I maintain that you haven't the right to proselytize.

Oh and I feel absolutely nothing missing in my life because I do not believe in organized religion. In fact I feel very comfortable in my beliefs. I feel I've hedged my bets by leading a moral and ethical life. And that, if that isn't enough should there be a judgement day, then I'm happy with that.

There is a far difference from not beleiving personally and going out of your way to attack and try to weaken the faith of others, One is a personal beleif, the other shows a more dark side, determined to fight against God.


I cross that line all the time, since it is my duty and job to let others know the joy they are missing by not having Christ in thier life.I imagine you don't realize the hypocrisy of your statements.

I understand where you are coming from and I don't really have any expectation that I will change you, but the fact that you feel you know the truth, when there are billions of people who believe in a different truth shows a level of arrogance and disrespect that you just can't see.

I find it disrespectful that billions of people are allowed to believe in different truths, but Christians are arrogant and disrespectful when they even mention the truths that they have. Does that really sound fair to you?

And I thought non-believers weren't trying to change anyone!

I find it disrespectful that billions of people are allowed to believe in different truths, but Christians are arrogant and disrespectful when they even mention the truths that they have. Does that really sound fair to you?

And I thought non-believers weren't trying to change anyone!

See that's where you get it wrong. I have no problem in your stating what you believe in. Up to the point where you challenge someone else's beliefs. I understand that your interpretation of the Bible commands you to try and convert others. And that kind of leaves us in a Catch 22. For you to follow your beliefs you have to challenge mine, for me to do what I believe in I wind up challenging that belief of yours. So it does kind of make me a bit of hypocrite to say I respect your beliefs but not when you proselytize. I reconcile that by the understanding that I'm only challenging that one part of your belief, not the whole belief system as you are doing.

I find it odd however, that the Old Testament didn't include such a mandate. Yet you believe in the Old Testament.

I guess change was the wrong word. I'm just trying to get you to understand that you can't show respect for someone if you you challenge everything they believe in. That you can't show respect for someone if you try to "save" them when they don't feel they want or need to be saved. That you should feel comfortable that they are comfortable in what they believe in even when it runs counter to yours.

You need to realize that historically, this mandate to convert everyone to Christianity has caused more harm than good, has been behind some of the worst excesses of humankind. The Inquisition, the Holocaust, millions killed as missionaries spread disease throughout the so-called third world.

No I will never support proselytizing.

And the spread of the Gospel has done the most good, medical care in all parts of the world, the largest charity groups in the world, For many decades the entire education system for the US andfor centuries the education system for most of Europe and still for many parts of the world.

When world disaster hits, you don't see many Buddists or Islam charity groups rushing to the aid, I have not see an athiests charity group rush to their aids, it is the christian who always answers the call.

Up to the point where you challenge someone else's beliefs. ]

Exactly, I feel the same way.

[I understand that your interpretation of the Bible commands you to try and convert others.]

Actually, I'm not trying to convert anyone, only God can do that, i just inform.

[So it does kind of make me a bit of hypocrite to say I respect your beliefs but not when you proselytize.]

True.

[I reconcile that by the understanding that I'm only challenging that one part of your belief, not the the whole belief system as you are doing.]

I really don't know how I am challenging your whole belief system by telling you about Christ. I have always said that if you don't want to believe in God, that't your right.
But at least allow me the right to tell those that want to hear the good news.

[I find it odd however, that the Old Testament didn't include such a mandate. yet you believe in the Old Testament.]

I do believe that the Old Testament is fact and the history of Christians. But after Jesus was nailed to the cross, the Old Testament was nailed to the cross with him. Jesus is the way and His teachings.

[I guess change was the wrong word. I'm just trying to get you to understand that you can't show respect for someone if you you challenge everything they believe in. ]

Exactly! Christians feel the same way!

[That you can't show respect for someone if you try to "save" them when they don't feel they want or need to be saved.]

If you don't want or need to be saved, that's fine, it's totally your decision. I really mean that. Beside, I can't save anyone, only God can.

[That you should feel comfortable that they are comfortable in what they believe in even when it runs counter to yours.]

Hey, I said you can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't mean I have to be comfortable with it. Afterall I'm just trying to help someone that I believe needs help.
But like I said before, I'm waiting for someone who wants my help.



[No I will never support proselytizing.

And no one said you have to.

Very good point Chuck.
I like the eye!

When world disaster hits, you don't see many Buddists or Islam charity groups rushing to the aid, I have not see an athiests charity group rush to their aids, it is the christian who always answers the call.None are so blind as those who will not see.

Doctors Without Borders/Médecins sans Frontières (http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/aboutus/charter.cfm)

American Red Cross (http://www.redcross.org/services/govrel/0,1082,0_193_,00.html)

UNICEF - UNICEF Home (http://www.unicef.org/)

Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org/)


It's also worth pointing out that non-believers who go around doing nice things for humanity don't usually go around saying that they do it because they don't have god beliefs. If they mention it at all, they usually say "it's for humanity" or "it's the compassionate thing to do". Also in many cases, the charity that the religious engage in is merely a means for converting others. The primary goal is not solely to help alleviate suffering but to spread the faith.

A heathen doesn't have to prove anything, we know the truth. I don't call that a self-righteous attitude, because what I tell others is not for my benefit, it's for theirs and those around them.

I didn't write the rules, I'm just saying if you read a holy book - you'll realize it's a farce.

I have the greatest respect for others, if I didn't I wouldn't be telling them about life as a heathen. The only reason I do this is because I care about the quality of their life.

I bet this puts me over the line?

I cross that line all the time, since it is my duty and job to let others know the joy they are missing by not being a heathen.

And from the testimony of 1000's that did know and later rejected Christ or god (or never accepted him in the first place), we know as a fact that people with him are missing things in their life. But in the end it is always the person's choice to accept or reject, but it is the duty and obligation of the heathen to give those who wonder the information so that you decide.

If that's what you believe.
The word heathen is your word, never been mine.
But if that's what you're happy with. Hey, it's your life.

If I wave a red flag or lantern to keep someone from driving off a washed-out bridge, I am a hero. If I try to warn someone that he is headed toward Hell, I am an intolerant, ignorant bigot. Go figure!

I don't understand it either.

My point is to hold up a mirror and see if you still think you don't sound self-righteous.

And the difference between saving someone from driving off a bridge and preaching about being saved by Jesus is that no one on this earth disputes that if a car plummets off a bridge the occupants will be killed or injured. There are more people on this earth who don't believe in the Christian version of heaven and hell than those who do.

Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus? Do you really think a majority of non-Christians are so ill-informed about basic Christian beliefs that they don't know you think they are going to hell? Why not preach to the people who come to you or the people who admit they are lost or confused? That is why it's arrogant and self-righteous - you have the nerve to think that because someone doesn't believe the same way as you they are miserable, when in fact, a great deal of people are very satisfied with their current belief system. Do you like it when the zealots of the Muslim faith call us infidels and tell us if we don't convert we will all go to hell? Seriously, before you speak, think about what you are about to say from the other perspective - would you want someone telling you your beliefs are wrong, that you will suffer for eternity, etc unless you listen to them and accept their version of things? And when/if those things are said to you, will it shake your faith, even the slightest?

It's called empathy, try it out.

And you can call me a heathen, it doesn't bother me. I do it all the time.

Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus?

You said it better than I did.

But to answer your question, there are passages in the New Testament that specifically push Christians to convert others. As Chuck said, they consider their job and duty. Its unfortunate, because those passages have led to a lot more harm than good. The problem is blind faith, as I see it. Proselytizers take a view of the bible that they have to follow it exactly. So they would be remiss in their devotion to God is they didn't proselytize. Obviously not all Christians feel this way. Many take a more pragmatic view and feel they shouldn't force themselves on others.

I've mentioned before that I attended a synagogue in Greenwich Village in NYC when I was growing up. This synagogue was called the Brotherhood synagogue and shared its building with a church (Episcopalian as I recall). There is a church on LI that recently celbrated its 275th annversary. The church is shared by Christian, Jewish AND Moslem congregations. So I have to ask, since there are congregations that PRACTICE brotherhood, why do some people insist on imposing themselves on others.

I think, possibly, I can help both of you out. Possibly. First, if a religion is made on a foundation to "recruit" more "flock", this would not be a religion I would wish to be a part of. Not saying it is wrong, just not for me.

Now, here is how I see it. So many times, I heard people who have just had enough of having someone else's view, thoughts, or faith jammed down their throats, say, "It's behavaviour like that, that reconfirms my belief in not to believe in God."

And who could blame them?

It is Allheart's belief, that these "do gooders", these folks so worried about your spiritual soul, that they are willing to hurt and rip apart your human soul" in the name of saving your soul (puke), is evil at it's finest.

It may be evil preventing some, not all, but some, from opening up maybe a little more to the possibility that God does exsist.

As a human, it truly makes me so mad. But never afraid of evil. I think evil (unkind acts) penetrates, which was once, and still is, a very good person, but evil, like a cancer, has attacked them.

Believe me, not all who believe in God, or accept Jesus as their Savor, would make any of you feel anything but loved.

We ALL our children of God - Not one of us is better then the next.

I will tune out those that say I am sugar coating the issue. Let God be the judge of that.

And may we all be concerned, with doing good, loving and helping each other through every day.

God will take it from there.

Now this is only my view, but maybe gives you some insight.

Remember, a couple of bad apples, were once apples themselves but will never ever spoil the whole bunch.

My heart to all of you.

Allheart

The question of "believing comes" when we are not sure of the existtance of thing.The ecstacy of a dive in a swimming pool can never be enjoyed unless one jumps into it. No point in always jumping on the springing board. One must dive into the pool to enjoy the freshness. There is no other way out.

Allheart, you truly are one of the good apples! :) You are someone who, in my experiences with you here has always been kind, patient and understanding to those of different faiths. I wish I could say the same about more people on this site (and that goes for people of all and no faith!). And this bears repeating - if I could give you a greenie, I would!


It is Allheart's belief, that these "do gooders", these folks so worried about your spiritual soul, that they are willing to hurt and rip apart your human soul" in the name of saving your soul (puke), is evil at it's finest.

It may be evil preventing some, not all, but some, from opening up maybe a little more to the possibility that God does exsist.

And Scott, I'm aware it is a Christian's duty to spread the word, but I just don't get why they must spread it to people who are already happy and secure in their beliefs. Why not start by spreading the word to those who are unhappy, confused, or lost, and then tackle the task of world domination? :D That is what I don't get - why focus on me (or someone like me), someone who is happy with every aspect of their life (well... I sort of wish I had a new car... ) instead of focusing on someone who feels like they are missing something? I just don't get it.

Doesn't Dr. Phil always say you can't help people who don't want help? So isn't it a waste of time to try and help someone who doesn't want it?

And Ramamoorthy, your analogy works coming from both sides. Perhaps jumping out of religion is the ecstacy?

[QUOTE=jillianleab]
Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus? Why not preach to the people who come to you or the people who admit they are lost or confused? ]

You asked why do we insist on preaching to people who aren't searching? I think I've said before that my statements are directed at someone searching for Christ. I am not picking you out to tell you about Christ, but it seems that you are the one who takes offense at 'everything' I say, no matter who I'm answering.

When questions are asked, I'm thinking they are actually being asked by someone who wants an answer, but possibly these questions are just being asked by someone who just wants to cause conflict. So unless you are asking the questions, my answers are not directed at you, at least not until you respond to answers that I have directed to someone else.

Doesn't sound fair that Christians answers are attacked and blame is put on us because we had the nerve to answer them.

You seem to be very angry at Christians, could it be that maybe you're not sure that what we are saying isn't true?

I have noticed that the only Christians you seem to agree with are the ones who walk that fine line of staying on the good side of non-believers. Sorry, but I'm not going to try to pacify everyone, no Christian can. God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"
And, "if you are ashamed of Me, I will be ashamed of you." This is something that all Christians need to remember. We are to please God, not man.

And I am definitely not ashamed of my Heavenly Father, and His Son, my Savior!

God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"When did he say that?

God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"

God never said that, some ancient man said it, to scare the bejesus out of you, and make you stay in line.

When did he say that?

Mark 9:38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, "for whoever is not against us is for us."

Sorry, I got it switched.

Matthew 10:32-33
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

You asked why do we insist on preaching to people who aren't searching? I think I've said before that my statements are directed at someone searching for Christ. I am not picking you out to tell you about Christ, but it seems that you are the one who takes offense at 'everything' I say, no matter who I'm answering.

I was talking about the collective "you" not you specifically. And I'd love for you to point out where I have taken offence to anything you said, short of when you likened atheists to Nazis (which you admitted was wrong to do).


Doesn't sound fair that Christians answers are attacked and blame is put on us because we had the nerve to answer them.

And what "attack" are you referring to?


You seem to be very angry at Christians, could it be that maybe you're not sure that what we are saying isn't true?

You seem to be very angry at atheists, could it be your faith is not as strong as you think it is? Please, Donna I'm not an angry person, and I'm certainly not angry at Christians. What gives you the impression I'm angry at Christians - the fact that I don't agree with you? The fact that I flip your arguments around so maybe, just maybe you'll gain a little bit of empathy?


I have noticed that the only Christians you seem to agree with are the ones who walk that fine line of staying on the good side of non-believers. Sorry, but I'm not going to try to pacify everyone, no Christian can. God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"
And, "if you are ashamed of Me, I will be ashamed of you." This is something that all Christians need to remember. We are to please God, not man.

Golly, that sure sounds like you're judging me... And why are you holding it against me that I agree with or respond well to people who are polite and respectful? You know, the ones who wouldn't dream of saying atheists are like Nazis? I've never asked to be pacified, and I've never asked that you change your core beliefs. I've asked for basic respect, tolerance and politeness - things everyone, regardless of their faith deserves.


And I am definitely not ashamed of my Heavenly Father, and His Son, my Savior!

Nor should you be. Nor have I demanded you be. But you can be proud of your savior and still be respectful of others.

Donna, if you don't like what I or other non-Christians have to say on this site, please, do us all a favor and add us to your "ignore" list.

Well, I don't know? Why would I think you are angry at Christians?
I agree. The ignore list sounds like a good idea for both of us.

Actually it is from the bible, words of Chriist, those that are not with me are against me ( I don't have the chapter or verse as I write, but it is there) And it was written to set the boundary lines, that there is no other way, that unless one is a Christian, they are not saved and not part of the fellowship.
In the very early church there were parts of the service that a non christian was not allowed to even be at, since they viewed it as a Christian activity.

I agree with what jillian said. No one is suggesting you should be ashamed of your beliefs. Just the opposite. But you are asking that we be ashamed of ours. And that shows a disrespect for others that I can't stomach.

Chuck, I have a question about that verse, and you are very knowledgeable about the bible, so I think you should be able to help me.

Is the intent of "not with me you are against me" that, "those who are not Christian will not be saved by me" or that "those who are not Christian are my enemies/hate me"? I ask this because your post seems to indicate the former, but I have read many people's posts on this site which seem to imply the latter. Or is this something that is subject to man's interpretation?

I'm not trying to bait you, I really am curious about that. Obviously the different interpretations have very different meanings. If anyone else knows or has a comment, feel free to add your remarks. I don't want to get too far off topic, but I'd like to know.

Hi Jill and all: (Fr. Chuck - Miss your eye but like the new one too)

Had to look this up myself as we did not have bible study in Catholic church, but I most defintely heard the verse. It can be found in Luke 11:23

And it seems pretty easy to understand. Just like in life, either you enjoy someone's company and have them for dinner or you don't. No middle - no sitting on the fence.

It means to me that either you believe and accept Jesus in you hearts, or you don't.

Hope this helps:

Gathering with Jesus (11:23)
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters." (11:23)
In this context of spiritual conflict between demonic powers and Jesus' kingdom power there can be no neutrality.

We live in a world where agnosticism is sometimes considered a respectable alternative between faith in Christ and atheism. It is in the middle. It is neutral. It doesn't say I don't believe. It doesn't say I do believe. It says, I don't know.

But Jesus makes it clear that when mighty forces are arrayed against each other, individuals must take sides or they'll be crushed in the battle. The strong man, the prince of demons has taken a stand against the Anointed One and the angelic armies of heaven. The war has been won; the enemy has been dealt a decisive blow at Calvary. But there is an ongoing battle with frequent skirmishes, and it is fatal to be caught in No Man's Land. The final battle is to come: Armageddon (Revelation 16:16; 20:7-10).

Jesus' words in 11:23 pose a two-fold question:

Are you with Jesus?
Are you gathering with him?
You cannot straddle the fence. You are either with Jesus fully, or you oppose him and effectively scatter the harvest that he is trying to gather.

Jesus' words in 11:23 pose a two-fold question:

Are you with Jesus?
Are you gathering with him?
You cannot straddle the fence. You are either with Jesus fully, or you oppose him and effectively scatter the harvest that he is trying to gather.

Perfect! This goes back to something I and others said earlier. I believe that one can be "with" Jesus and "gather" with him without believing in him. The great thing about Jesus was his teaching of peace and love and the Golden Rule. This as all come to be known as the Judeo-Christian ethic. I believe that if one follows this ethic and lives by it, it doesn't matter whether they worship Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha or Bruce! If and when "Judgement Day" comes, I believe people will be judged on how they treated other PEOPLE not how they worshipped.

I take Luke 11:23 to mean that if you follow the teachings about morality and ethics than you are on the side of Jesus at least as far as Judgement Day is concerned.

Thanks for your reply, Allheart, but I'm not sure you've quite answered my question. Obviously I understand you either accept Jesus or not (being "with me"), but "you are against me"; does that equate to "you are my enemy" or "you aren't saved"?

I understand your point about the two-fold question, but if you are not with Jesus, does that mean you are seen by him or by Christians as the enemy, or just unsaved? Are those one in the same? Is that passage even directed at non-Christians (short of, believe in me and you are saved)? Does it mean, "believe in me or else"?

Miss Jilly with all the questions :)

Just kidding sweetheart.

No, it is directed at all of us. You, me, him, her. It can be interpreted 50,000 ways.
I remember being taught that passage - or at least hearing that passage. I will ask a priest but from what I remember, it's more If we do not follow his word, "love one another, turn the other cheek....all the things He wants us to do, in his eyes, then we are choosing to be against him. But no, not the enemy. "Wonderful" people will try and say that, but I don't think so. No. Not at all.

And in no way Does Our Father view us as the enemy nor those who believe in Christ. But I can only speak for me, the "enemy" are those purposley preveting God's loving word from being heard. Evil.

I had the most loving conversation - a day - last week - kind of sounds like a bar joke :)

There was a retired priest, a young Jewish boy 19 or 20, who if I could just bottle up his dedication to his religion and myself. We had the most loving and caring converstation. I will always consider it a gift. There was love and understanding as our common denominator, and that my dear Jillian, I think is what God will see.

And then there was this other man who I bonded with as well. Who thought he would give my young Jewish friend a run for his money. Mommy Allheart pulled him to the side and said, I know many are asking the fine young man a lot of questions about his faith, and I don't think he minds if you do as well, but you are not going to put him on the defensive are you?? He said no, and didn't.
( I was at a facility ). But boy that man was ready to pumble him with questions and statements about Jesus.

There are unkind people in this world Jillian - God forgive me for saying that - perhaps they are not well, and if you see them coming your way... run like... (oooooops )

Hugs

Thanks, Allheart. :)

I really just wanted clarification on the "enemy" standpont; as I said I've seen people use that particular passage in a way that conveys "enemy" status to non-Christians. I'm glad to hear that at least one person doesn't think I'm the enemy! :)

For the Love of God - No - Not how I was taught.

The enemy as I was taught - was Evil - Satan.

Not you. You my friend, are a child of God - just like the rest of us.

And guess how I think God feels about those who make you feel the enemy.

Now that is not to say that God - does want you to turn to Him, because He loves you, and you are His Child.

But I do respect all faiths.

( If you could have seen this young Jewish boy ). I thought they stop making them like that. I love him. Hubby met him too.

Amazing young man.

So, no, God does not view you as the enemy at all! And if and when someone dares to say those hateful words to you, just really think about it...

You want your children to follow all that you taught them, but something's they will forget or decide to do differently, are they your enemy?

That's why I wondered - the message Christians claim that god and Jesus puts out there is one of loving everyone; it seems contradictory to proclaim love and call one an enemy...

Hi
Now this is a tricky one, there are many people who say as you have done " seeing is believing" now this is the whole point to religion, you won't see him but you might very well feel him. Let me give you an example: at the moment we have dreadful winds, gales in fact we cannot see the wind but we know that it is there because we can feel it, so even though it is invisible we know that it exists.

God or the good guy as I like to refer to him as,is all around us guiding us through daily life the fact that we may go through each day effortless shows us that he has helped us through out the day you will not know this because you cannot see him never the less he has been with you. The days where you think blow it I can't be bothered to get up and go to work or let them do it themselves or your simply having a bad day is the bad guy distracting you, where there's good there has to be bad, if you follow what I mean.
Haven't you ever found yourself really desperate and uttered those words dear god please help me not really knowing why but we all do it then sometime later realize that the problem was sorted, well that's the good guy watching out for you.

Do you honestly believe that this world in all it's beauty just appeared, tomorrow go out side look around I mean really look at the trees and the flowers that return faithfully every year despite the battering we give them and think of the tiny dot of a seed that huge oak trees come , no we didn't just happen and I donot believe when we die it is the end, maybe here on earth but this life is just a learning curve for the next, we are not meant to understand it our brain is not advance enough, but that's a whole new topic

Sorry 0rphan, but your wind analogy doesn't hold up. Because wind can be measured. And there is a direct cause and effect. The wind blows and you see flags wave, tree limbs flutter, etc.

And I know what you are going to say, that the same things hold true for God, because you can see the results of his guidance in people's actions. But that still doesn't hold true because there are other explanations for people's actions. The direct relation that exists between wind and tree limbs doesn't lend itself to another explanation.

The big problem I have with what you said, is if there is that "good guy" guiding us, then why is there so much bad stuff? Why is a Nizmary Brown allowed to die? Why is a George Bush allowed to start a war? Why is a Jeffrey Dahmler or Ted Bundy allowed to do their evil? I can't accept the "good guy" that you believe in allowing all that to happen. And, frankly, I have never asked god for help and then realized my problems were resolved.

No, I don't believe the world just appeared. I do believe that some intelligent force setup the physical laws by which this universe is governed. But do I believe that intelligence is sitting somewhere watching over us, guiding things, no way. If you want to believe it and draw comfort from it, I feel happy for you. But I see too much circumstantial evicdence to the contrary.

Okay, seeing is believing, therefore you won't believe in God because you haven't seen him.

Question : Have you ever seen a cancerous tumor? Have you ever seen a Whale? Have you ever seen a virus? No? Do these things exist?

That's all I'm going to say.

Hi Scott,

I understand your feelings about "why is there so much bad stuff?" All I can say is, God is sovereign. Reading through the bible you will find that not all the "Characters" are good. God uses those people to his own end. It's beyond us to understand. Bad stuff serves a purpose. What we perceive to be bad can have a profound effect on us down the line. It was "bad" but something good can come from it. We have to learn and learning is not always easy. Nowhere does it say believe and life will be good and easy. To the contrary. This life, life on earth is not the reward.

Okay, seeing is believing, therefore you won't believe in God because you haven't seen him.

Question : Have you ever seen a cancerous tumor? Have you ever seen a Whale? Have you ever seen a virus? No? Do these things exist?

That's all I'm going to say.

If someone says "yes" does that ruin your case?

I have personally seen a cancerous tumor. I have personally seen a whale. I have personally seen undoctored film and photographic evidence of a virus. There is tangible proof for all the things you suggest. Maybe I have not personally laid my hands upon a petri dish containing a virus, but that doesn't mean there isn't tangible, physical evidence proving it's existence.

Is there undoctored film and/or photographic evidence of god? No, there's not. That's why theists have "faith" - they believe in something which has no tangible evidence. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it is impossible to "prove" god. It is equally impossible to "disprove" god, as there will still be theists who claim the evidence is lying, doctored, or sent from satan or whatever.

You have faith - others don't. I don't see what the big deal is.

Okay, maybe my examples weren't that good, but I had a limited amount of time. There are other things that we cannot see but have been proven to exist. Dinosaurs (yes, I know, you've seen their bones) for example. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

No, I've never physically seen God, yes, I do believe. Why? Because I've experienced things in my life that have no explanation other than the presence of a higher being. Miracles that shouldn't have occurred but did.

I can't tell anyone to believe, and I'm not going to preach to anyone that they have to believe. I do, and that's good enough for me.

I'm just saying that God isn't something you can see, you have to feel him, that's the way it is.

Hi Scott
I didn't say I knew all the answers or if in fact my theory was the correct one I simply offered a written view in answer to the original question "SEEING IS BELIEVING" it is purely my own opinion .
The tree analogy was a simple one nothing to do with measuring this or that but simply to demonstrate invisibility.
The badness that is happening not only on our doorsteps but world wide is mainly caused by mankind himself it's a lesson we still haven't learned despite the vast loss of lives and yet we still persist in -bloody wars- WE ARE DOING IT TO OURSELVES- why should the good guy interviene it's not like we haven't had enough chances now is it but still we continue with bigger and better weapons.
Personal loss is a different story and I would prefer not to go into this right now as I've recently lost my dear mum and brother only to say that I have more reason than most to ask that question, it could be medical, an accident or alike but in all events it will be valid and there will be a reason no matter how much we don't want to hear it .
You are an extremely lucky person never to have asked for help in your life , you also give a contradictory argument, on the one hand your saying "YOU DO BELIEVE THAT AN INTELLIGENT FORCE SET UP THE LAWS TO THE LAND" but then you add that"YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS INTELLIGENT FORCE IS GUIDING US" your words not mine.

So if we go along with your theory where did this force come from!

I'm just saying that God isn't something you can see, you have to feel him, that's the way it is.

Well why didn't you just say that! :D

You have to have faith. But if more people would be satisfied with that, rather then trying to prove one another wrong, this would be a much, much less interesting board! :)

Well why didn't you just say that! :D

You have to have faith. But if more people would be satisfied with that, rather then trying to prove one another wrong, this would be a much, much less interesting board! :)

So true. That's just it, I don't feel the need to prove anyone wrong, believe or don't, it's okay with me. I believe, of course I'm one of the oddest believers you'll ever meet.

I don't go to church (I gave it up for lent :) ) because I don't believe in one man's right (the pastor) to preach his version of the lords word. I don't believe in supporting a church, what for, so they can get oak pews and expensive stained glass windows? I'd rather give my money to people who need it, directly.

I pray to God in my home, I talk to my children about God, I don't believe in "organized" religion, but I do believe in God. I've been told by other people that believing isn't enough, that if I don't go to church every Sunday then I'm going to he*l, well these same people cheat on their spouses, are cruel to others, and think that all they have to do is go to Church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness and then everything will be okay.

I live my life differently and they don't like it. Guess I'll have to wait and see who makes it to heaven and who doesn't, but if I'm going down I'm sure a few of them will be there to keep me company.

Not all people who believe in God are good, and not all that don't believe are bad, it's not that cut and dry. Is it?:confused:

Not all people who believe in God are good, and not all that don't believe are bad, it's not that cut and dry. Is it?:confused:

Nope, it's not cut and dry at all. There are good apples and bad apples; and unfortunately, sometimes a few bad apples ruin the whole bunch in the eyes of someone on the other side.

Very true. Believing in God doesn't automatically make you good. As long as you are a good person, kind, caring, helpful to others, what does it matter what you believe in?

I understand your feelings about "why is there so much bad stuff?" All I can say is, God is sovereign. Reading through the bible you will find that not all the "Characters" are good. God uses those people to his own end. It's beyond us to understand. Bad stuff serves a purpose. What we perceive to be bad can have a profound effect on us down the line. It was "bad" but something good can come from it. We have to learn and learning is not always easy. Nowhere does it say believe and life will be good and easy. To the contrary. This life, life on earth is not the reward.

The problem with all that is it is what you BELIEVE! You are entitled to those beliefs and I am happy they give you comfort. But the only thing behind your beliefs is your faith in the Bible. I don't have those beliefs because I can't see any concrete proof to support them.


i didn't say i knew all the answers or if infact my theory was the correct one i simply offered a written view in answer to the original question "SEEING IS BELIEVING" it is purely my own opinion .
The tree analogy was a simple one nothing to do with measuring this or that but simply to demonstrate invisibility.
The badness that is happening not only on our doorsteps but world wide is mainly caused by mankind himself it's a lesson we still haven't learned dispite the vast loss of lives and yet we still persist in -bloody wars- WE ARE DOING IT TO OURSELVES- why should the good guy interviene it's not like we haven't had enough chances now is it but still we continue with bigger and better weapons.
Personal loss is a differant story and i would prefer not to go into this right now as i've recently lost my dear mum and brother only to say that i have more reason than most to ask that question, it could be medical, an accident or alike but in all events it will be valid and there will be a reason no matter how much we don't want to hear it .
You are an extremely lucky person never to have asked for help in your life , you also give a contradictory argument, on the one hand your saying "YOU DO BELIEVE THAT AN INTELLIGENT FORCE SET UP THE LAWS TO THE LAND" but then you add that"YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS INTELLIGENT FORCE IS GUIDING US" your words not mine.

So if we go along with your theory where did this force come from!!

See that's the problem. If we are to believe in a benevolent God that guides us and answers our prayers how does one believe that that same God turns his back on his creations and lets them do such things to themselves. If you want to believe that there is some grand design that we can't understand, more power to you.

Now I never said I haven't asked for help. I said I haven't asked AND had anything happen to indicate my request had been answered.

And there is no contradiction. Its called Deism. Imagine a child setting up an oval model train track. He places a train on the track and starts it at a constant speed. He then sits back and watches it go round and round. The child has a situation with certain rules. He has then stepped away and lets things go according to the rulles he set up. It's a simplisitic analogy but its what I believe. I don't know where this force came from I don't pretend to. But I cannot believe that we are anything more an experiment by some intelligence we can't understand.

To take up this topic again, let's review what I asked in the first post here and the replies received :




Donna Mae posted in topic "Is there a God?" :

"I believe it as soon as I see it. The problem with this statement is that when you see it (the Judgment), it will be to late to believe then".
Besides that that only MAY BE TRUE (as it is subject to the existence of that deity which many of you call "God", and if there is any judgment at all), there is another problem with this point of view.

YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (your and any other) God : what can one do?

Born into a Christian family I rejected the belief in (any) God(s) at the early age of 12 years.
I did not change any other habits and viewpoints. I have not murdered anyone, pay my dues where demanded from me, do a lot of unpaid volunteer activities, am a member of an international disaster team, still help old women to the other side of the street (if they want to go there), and am open to other views (i.e. also to Christianity). But I do not believe in the existence of God.

Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the well known ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?

Most of you are all 100% convinced that there is that deity called God with all these characteristic described to it, while I am 100% (1) convinced that the deity called God does not exist, and that there is no ´Satan`, that there are no ´Heaven and Hell`, that there is no ´Final Judgment`, etc.

Besides that everyone should be allowed to believe whatever ´feels good`, you can not force a belief upon yourself or another. I do not see any reason neither to even try to change my position. But I respect whatever you believe in.

All I do not respect are the conclusions some of you draw from your religious beliefs. Like a 6000 years old earth, or the creation myth converted into anti evolution attack (a rather intolerant approach towards those of other views, while creationists demand full tolerance towards their own views (but most of the time fail to provide themselves that tolerance towards those of other views). Just as you are allowed in your belief(s), I am allowed in what I feel right just as well !
.
Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?

.. //.. Some unimportant lines removed.. //..
.
So far I have seen 6 pages of replies, but hardly anyone really answered the posed question. Mainly a debate developed on "who is right".
.
So I repeat once more part of my initial question and request replies to that question :
.
YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (this and/or any other) God : what can one do?
.
Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the well known ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?
.
Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
.
Please do not tell me to read the Bible. I did. But every logic cell in my brain tells me that the Bible makes no sense.
.
So what do I do now?
.
?

YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (this and/or any other) God : what can one do?
.
Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the well known ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?
.
Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
.
Please do not tell me to read the Bible. I did.
So what do I do now?
.
? ? ?



No you shouldn't fake it because the All knowing Almighty will know what is in the hearts of all.
Even those who pretend to believe yet do not in reality will have their lies exposed one day.

Regarding your request from us believers to show proof as in tangible proof of the existence of the Almighty. Don't hold your breathe, it will not happen.
Because He will not be seen by any human in this lifetime to be able to get a sample of the Almighty to be looked into under a microscope or measured or heated or cooled or weighed or brought under any of the scientific methods of observation that you want to do.
This question you ask is not new, it has been on man's mind for centuries and every effort to bring the creation of this universe and beyond within the understanding of physical laws and the mystery of finding out the source of all creation has not been solved. The reason being that man is able to comprehend only a fraction of the universe and its works. We are able to measure only that which is at our reach and so much more is beyond our physical reach.

You do not believe in the Almighty but you wonder what you should do because you are not a believer? Or questions His existence?

I can only recommend one thing-
Look at all those great nations that have perished in days past. So many of them were great civilizations, there must have been believers and unbelievers even then. And even in all their glory they perished, their only mark is in the ruins of many historical sites.

The people that exist today will perish too, all of our time is limited on this earth, whether you believe in a life beyond death or not, we both agree that death is part of life. And your death or mine can come in an hour, tomorrow or in 10-20-30 years from now.
Until then you have this life to live in belief or disbelief, but once death seizes you, there is nothing you can do to stop death or come back into this life to change anything.

So live your life and if you like research into the history of humankind and their lives and how they lived and how it ended. Research into religion. Find all that is common in all religions and trace its source in history.

Know that the limited time we have on earth is all we have to make choices, once death knocks on your door then there will be no turning back.

Another thing I believe is that all of us has the chance to believe until our last breathe. Some of us find guidance and belief in a Higher power earlier than others. While others find faith, lose it, find it again or lose it forever.

Scientific research as an ongoing process, as far as I believe do not contradict what I believe, it just reinforces my beliefs. So I wouldn't dismiss looking into science as part of research into religion. Know that science only explains that which can be measured under the physical laws we humans have established.

Remember that not all things can be explained by science and that is where faith comes in.
Like my signature says
"All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen"

So far I have seen 6 pages of replies, but hardly anyone really answered the posed question. Mainly a debate developed on "who is right".
.
So I repeat once more part of my initial question and request replies to that question :
.
YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (this and/or any other) God : what can one do?
.
Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the well known ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?
.
Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
.
Please do not tell me to read the Bible. I did. But every logic cell in my brain tells me that the Bible makes no sense.
.
So what do I do now?
.
? ? ?

Creden, I'm not sure what sort of answer you are hoping to get. I don't know why you think that one who does not believe in god, or believes in a different god than others must "do" anything. If you don't believe, or you believe your faith to be the correct one, why would you or should you have to "do" anything involving anyone else? Why would you want to or need to "pretend" and how would you know you were "pretending" to the "correct" deity? The people of faith will tell you the only thing you can "do" is to accept their religion. If you are unwilling to do that, you can't "do" anything.

So what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of god? How about carry on with your life as you see fit and forget about what other people tell you is going to happen to your eternal soul? Why does there have to be more than that?

There will always be belligerent people in this world - but remember, they come from both sides. There are people who say, "I KNOW there is a god" just the same as there are people who say, "I KNOW there is NOT a god". What difference does it make? Why is it so important to you people says "I BELIEVE ....."? I'm having a hard time understanding how someone professing they KNOW something such as the existence of god has any effect on your life whatsoever. Sure, if it start to mingle with your politics it makes a difference, but the lowly people here on AMHD saying "I KNOW..." this or that is inconsequential. We're all just a bunch of schmucks on the interwebs, and you stand a very, very low chance of changing someone's mind.

Sorry if I sound a bit b!tchy, but I'm having trouble understanding what sort of answer you want; it sounds more like you are trolling.

Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?

You simply look into your own heart, and do as you must to be who you are, or want to be. Whether you believe or not, you still have the gift of choice to use as you may. There is no spiritual contradiction, or conflict. Only one imposed on one human to another.

.... You do not believe in the Almighty but you wonder what you should do because you are not a believer? Or questions His existence? ....
With all respect : let me tell you what my thoughts on that are : I got tired of all those "friendly" Christians telling me that anyone who doesn't believe in the Christian faith is wrong. That's a clear lack of respect for my personal views, and a show of their hypocrite self-righteousness.
Specially as NOBODY ever has provided even the slightest iota of objective supporting evidence for the existence of their God.
.
I do not deny anyone the right to believe. And I do not tell any Christian that what he/she believes is wrong. All I do is telling them that what they BELIEVE is BELIEF and NOT FACTUAL (at least never ever has that objectively been proved to be factual)
;)

... I'm having trouble understanding what sort of answer you want ; it sounds more like you are trolling...
It's more a mirror that I hold up to (good-willing but never-the-less) respect-less and self-righteous Christians who insist at every opportunity that I have to accept their belief.
But when you ask them HOW you can convert yourself to ideas that are totally foreign to yourself, their reaction turns into accusing and insulting you, like you do with suggesting that I am "trolling".
.
With all respect : why don't you answer my question : HOW and WHY would anyone convert to the Christianity, if every braincells in him/her tells that religion makes no sense?
:rolleyes:

You simply look into your own heart, and do as you must to be who you are, or want to be. Whether you believe or not, you still have the gift of choice to use as you may. There is no spiritual contradiction, or conflict. Only one imposed on one human to another.
I did. Many times. But I disagree that I have a choice. For me there are no supernatural entities, and so far nobody ever has been able to provide me with a single iota of objective support to the opposite of that view.
Still Christians tell me that I am wrong. And they tell me that what they BELIEVE is the ONE-AND-ONLY-TRUTH.
With all respect : if they want that BELIEVE, fine with me. But why should I accept that as my reality? And why should I be wrong not accepting what they BELIEVE?
:rolleyes:

But I disagree that I have a choice.
Your exercising that choice now by not believing in what others say, and that's up to you. By the way I'm not a Christian, and am not telling you what, or why you should believe. If you require evidence, as opposed to blind faith, cool, again YOUR choice. Don't be mad at christians for trying to express themselves, and the way many of them go about it, they are as human as any of us, and feel strongly in the way they believe.

With all respect : let me tell you what my thoughts on that are : I got tired of all those "friendly" Christians telling me that anyone who doesn't believe in the Christian faith is wrong. That's a clear lack of respect for my personal views, and a show of their hypocrite self-righteousness.
Specially as NOBODY ever has provided even the slightest iota of objective supporting evidence for the existence of their God.
.
I do not deny anyone the right to believe. And I do not tell any Christian that what he/she believes is wrong. All I do is telling them that what they BELIEVE is BELIEF and NOT FACTUAL (at least never ever has that objectively been proved to be factual)
;)

Sometimes with your questions I wonder if you actually want someone to prove it so you could believe? :)

If what we believers believe is only belief then so is yours.It is your belief that there is no Almighty.
Are you not doing the same thing as "those"who think they are right by trying to prove believers wrong?

It's more a mirror that I hold up to (good-willing but never-the-less) respect-less and self-righteous Christians who insist at every opportunity that I have to accept their belief.

Yup, that's annoying, but as I said, trying to do that sort of thing here, on a board where psychologically people are of strong opinion (because they participate in such a public forum to express their views) is going to make little difference. I'm not saying you shouldn't have posted your question, I'm just saying, IMO, it's a waste of time if you are hoping to reach people here.


But when you ask them HOW you can convert yourself to ideas that are totally foreign to yourself, their reaction turns into accusing and insulting you, like you do with suggesting that I am "trolling".

I didn't say you were trolling, I said it seems like you might be trolling. Your question is very confrontational, very challenging of the other side, and then you re-post with, might I say, quite a bit of arrogance because you didn't get the answer you wanted. Unless you have led a very shelterd life it should come as no surprise to you that there are people in this world who will insist to the very end that THEY are right, and YOU are wrong. Those are people with little to no respect for other's opinions or beliefs; why engage them? There's a handy feature on this site - the "ignore" button; I've used it frequently because there are people here that simply aren't worth my time and energy. But regardless of all of that, why ask how you can convert? Why not explain you are content with your belief system and leave it at that? Why not flip the table on them and ask how can you convert them to YOUR belief system? And when they say, "There's no way," you simply say, "I rest my case."

And as an aside, it's been MY experience that when I tell someone their ideas are foreign to me, they react by telling me I must have "faith" to accept. So either you deal with angrier people than me, or our approaches are different.


With all respect : why don't you answer my question : HOW and WHY would anyone convert to the Christianity, if every braincells in him/her tells that religion makes no sense?
:rolleyes:

I don't care if you convert to Christianity or not, I'm not a Christian. I don't see why anyone would convert if they didn't believe; it would be pointless. I also don't see why someone who doesn't believe is seemingly overwhelmed with the idea of convincing themselves to believe, or finding a way that it can be articulated that you can overcome your lack of belief. Why are you so concerned with what these people think about you? Maybe this is not your intent, but it screams of insecurity on your end.

Here's what it comes down to - faith. You either have it, or you don't. You can lose it (apparently), you can find it (apparently), but you either have it or you don't. You either allow yourself to believe in the supernatural, or your brain tells you, "Nope, I don't think so!" It's not about convincing yourself to believe, or pretending, it's about faith. Every theist I've ever encountered will eventually relent and say that to believe, you must have faith. No faith - no god. It's really as simple as that.

Donna Mae posted in topic "Is there a God?" :

"I believe it as soon as I see it. The problem with this statement is that when you see it (the Judgement), it will be to late to believe then".

Besides that that only MAY BE TRUE (as it is subject to the existence of that deity which many of you call "God", and if there is any judgement at all), there is another problem with this point of view.

YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (your and any other) God : what can one do?

Born into a Christian family I rejected the belief in (any) God(s) at the early age of 12 years.
I did not change any other habits and viewpoints. I have not murdered anyone, pay my dues where demanded from me, do a lot of unpaid volunteer activities, am a member of an international disaster team, still help old women to the other side of the street (if they want to go there), and am open to other views (i.e. also to Christianity). But I do not believe in the existence of God.

Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the wellknown ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?

Most of you are all 99,999.999.999.999.999% (1) convinced that there is that deity called God with all these characteristic descibed to it, while I am 99,999.999.999.999.999% (1) convinced that the deity called God does not exist, and that there is no ´Satan`, that there are no ´Heaven and Hell`, that there is no ´Final Judgement`, etc.

Besides that everyone should be allowed to believe whatever ´feels good`, you can not force a belief upon yourself or another. I do not see any reason neither to even try to change my position. But I respect whatever you believe in.

All I do not respect are the conclusions some of you draw from your religious beliefs. Like a 6000 years old earth, or the creation myth converted into anti evolution attack (a rather intolerant approach towards those of other views, while creationists demand full tolerance towards their own views (but most of the time fail to provide themselves towards those of other views). Just as you are allowed in your belief(s), I am allowed in what I feel right !
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Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
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(1) 99,999.999.999.999.999% : sassyT claims that there is nothing you can know 100%, so 99,999.999.999.999.999% than :)
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As per what Jilleanleab just stated.

Ultimately it's belief / faith. Not that Christians don't think or blindly accept, though I'm sure some do, but it is a free choice.


Credendovidis:

Do you want to believe in God?

Do you want to believe in God?
It's not IF I want to believe. That is up to me to decide.
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As I stated it are Christians who insist at every opportunity that I have to accept their belief.
That I must read their Bible to (learn to) believe in God. That I am wrong regarding my non-religious world views.
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So I did that in the past. I read and know the Bible. But I still do not believe in the existence of God.
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My point is : even if I would want to believe in God, I know that I can not believe in God (at least not at this moment). That it is impossible for me to do. Reading the Bible, participating in religious discussions, whatever else I did convinced me every time even more than before , that it is not I who is wrong.
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In some way I just believe as strong in my non-religious views, as the most convinced Christian believes in her/his religious views.
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Now I have never in my life tried to convince any Christian of my views.
Also I have never told any Christian that he/she is wrong.
All I ever mentioned is that Christians circular-argue by using what they believe as "evidence" for their belief to be factual.
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And other Christians continue telling me that I have to change, even although I am very open and clear about my position, and am a convinced Atheist.
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Credendovidis,

Thanks for clearing that up.

You are right, it is your choice.

With all respect : why don't you answer my question : HOW and WHY would anyone convert to the Christianity, if every braincells in him/her tells that religion makes no sense?
:rolleyes:

I have to say that I have been a believer for as long as I can remember so it is hard for me to really understand how anyone could not believe in God and Jesus. But I do realize that it is hard for some to accept God, I don't understand it myself, but I can see your side. I am sorry if I have been pushy with my beliefs, but telling others about God and Jesus is something I have to (and want to) do.

My suggestion would be prayer. If you really want to know if God exists, pray, I believe that somehow God will let you know your answer.

You don't have to convert to anything. Especially if it makes no sense.

I think Talaniman has a good point. The fact that Cred is happy with himself, as an atheist, is of no consequence to me or anybody for that matter. Likewise for whatever Donna Mae's Christian beliefs are, than good for her as well. Personally I take value in the Torah and that's important to my understanding in this life, but I acknowledge that most people are not harmful to others in society and are rather productive helping humanity in general, maintaining healthy relationships with friends and family. For example: I think of the Judaism board as a place that people should visit that desire to know more about the Jewish faith (and/or history) and come willingly to ask questions. Sure there are a few that feel the need to debate and if they come respectfully they are also welcomed. But I do think it's often offensive, when in a zealous manner, one forces him or herself upon another, or goes board trolling just for the sake of religious or anti-religious arguments. Generally speaking, I know that if either atheist or Christian saw someone hurt in a horrific car crash that neither would hesitate to comfort the person the best they could and get help.

No one will respect your choices, if you don't respect theirs. That's only human nature. That's also the problem, a lack of respect, that alienates and divides.

^^

That's why Tal has all those greenies. :)
Well said.

... I think of the Judaism board as a place that people should visit that desire to know more about the Jewish faith (and/or history) and come willingly to ask questions ...
Indeed. One can be interested in (other) religions for many reasons, even without any interests ever to convert to any of them.
I know many Jewish people and am very much interested in their culture. In the past I communicated with many Jews about that. Still none of them ever tried to push me to accept their religion, even if from my mother's and her mother's side I am linked to Judaism.
It is only on the Christianity board that one feels that constant attempt to put pressure towards conversion.
Why can (some) Christians not understand that one can be interested in their religion without any need or wish to become a Christian? Their pushy approach only adds up to resentment.
;)

It is the purpose to Christianity to tell others, that was the one main command of our Lord and Savior to tell others about him. The choice is always yours, but we have to be sure you have had that choice.

And of course we do it because we really love and care for you, we don't want you to for your lack of acceptace to be doomed to hell. We don't want that for our worst enemies.
So when christianity is talked about, salvation and telling others is really a required part of it.

And you can be saved today if you will only accept Christ

and you can be saved today if you will only accept Christ
Saved from what?

"I believe it as soon as I see it." Credendovidis is one clear-thinking person. But after reading his response to another post, I must ask; what if you were bind? Suppose you were Helen Keller without the ability to feel touch. What would make you believe? Just needling you.

I believe that we cannot conceive of/find God because we keep looking at, or away from a particular religion or spot on the wall. We are all part of God. Yes, he is out there, or up there, or in here. But you can't "find" or believe in something that is tangible and intangible at the same time. You can only BE it. People write books that guide. People talk and talk and argue. If the person I most disagree with is part of God, and Im part of God, why even disagree? You are me, I am you.

We wage war, to kill the others that we disagree with. We are killing ourselves. What a waste of time and resources.

... and you can be saved today if you will only accept Christ
So do I have to restart this entire topic AGAIN?
It's not a case of willing or unwilling. It's being unable.
I am just as strong in my current word view as you are in your current world view.
Your reply here is of no use at all.
;)

I believe that we cannot conceive of/find God because we keep looking at, or away from a particular religion or spot on the wall. We are all part of God. Yes, he is out there, or up there, or in here. Precisely : that is what you BELIEVE. But is that reality?
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We wage war, to kill the others that we disagree with. We are killing ourselves. What a waste of time and resources.
I note that the claimed-to-be Christian US Nation is waging war nearly worldwide, and killing the others that you all disagree with.
But I as non-Christian do not wage war. Nor do I as a non-Christian kill those who I disagree with.

But I agree with your line : What a waste of time and resources.
Indeed. But not only a waste. How immoral!
;)

Precisely : that is what you BELIEVE.
The etymology of the word BELIEVE (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=believe&searchmode=none). Is interesting:
O.E. belyfan, earlier geleafa (Mercian), gelefa (Northumbrian), gelyfan (W.Saxon) "believe," from P.Gmc. *ga-laubjan "hold dear, love," from PIE base *leubh- "to like, desire" (see love).

But is that reality?
Is anything we "hold dear" real? What do you hold dear, Credendovidis? Isn't it your "vidis"--your point of view? That certainly is one of the things I hold dear for myself, even though there's no "objective proof" that mine is in any way superior or preferred to anyone else's.

... the word BELIEVE is interesting: Is anything we "hold dear" real? What do you hold dear, Credendovidis?


Any BELIEVES one may have MAY BE REAL. Of course. But to have these believes getting accepted as real by other not co-believers, one should provide objective supporting evidence for that. And that is precisely why I do not try to proselytize my personal world view onto others. Unlike those Christians do whom I refer to here in this topic, who attack me and/or talk down on me, all because I am not one of them.
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My "Credendovidis" handles shows my approach : I BELIEVE it when I see it. At the same time I do not try to convince anyone else that what I believe or not believe is factual or "the one-and-only-truth".
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So what do I hold dear (i.e. : what do I believe)?
I hold dear that for everything there will be a good natural reason/explanation. Some of the explanations were found thousands of years ago. Other were only discovered recently by increasing scientific understanding. Again others may only be found in the future. And may be there even will be certain things for which we can not find any explanations.
But on itself that is no reason for me to introduce and BELIEVE in some deity/deities, for whom in my personal views is no reason to exist, as nature seems to be quite capable of getting to all that there is now without any deity or deities involved. And science is increasingly supportive of that view with real objective scientific findings and Theories explaining that what still needed to be explained on a scientific basis. Note that a Scientific Theory is an objective supported thesis, with near "factual" value.
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Of course I can not prove a negative. I can not (and do not feel any reason to) prove that no deity/deities exist.
Those who BELIEVE in a deity (a positive and therefore much easier to prove belief) should continue to BELIEVE in the deity/deities of their preference (no problem).
But if they insist that what they BELIEVE should be the reality for all others also, I always ask for objective supported evidence for that wild claim. So far I still have to receive the first ever objective evidence. That seems a rather problematic item to provide...
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Just as you do I not hold that my believes are superior or preferred to anyone else's believes. Therefore I do not make wild claims based on that what I believe to be correct (as in true). I always make sure that when I make a statement that I hold to be true, that I can back that statement up with objective supporting evidence. And not with empty metaphysical and/or religious claims.
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Reality, I hold dear, is both tangible and intangible. It cannot be "pinned down" and written about, thus supporting a belief, because it defies classification and a complete description.

Does physics not support this duality? I'm thinking about how a light photon is both a wave and a particle. You can describe the experimental results, but not really explain the phenomenon. And light seems to precognitively go where it can, not where it can't.

A light photon can shine upon a religious person and on one who can't say, "I believe." The sun is warm on both. It may be a particle or a wave but we just feel the warmth and have light to see by. We are limited by our reason. (And possibly the fact that we did not bring our electron microscope to the beach.)

Socrates is one of the fathers of the age of reason. But to make reason, he leaves out all ideas that do not follow logic. Reason cannot explain reality, but it thinks that it can. Reality does not follow a pattern that our minds can grasp. Some follow religion to explain the gaps.

.... Reason cannot explain reality, but it thinks that it can. Reality does not follow a pattern that our minds can grasp. Some follow religion to explain the gaps.
First of all reason does not think. Humans think.
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Secondly : reality is the state of things as they are or appear to be, rather than as one wish them to be. Note that religion (based on belief) tends to involve more of that "wish them to be".
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Maybe reasoning can not explain all of reality (or better : what appears to be reality), but most of our reality is properly and objective-supportively explained by reason.
Some may indeed follow religion to explain the gaps. But these religious explanations have an even smaller chance to be reality, as they fail any objective support. That grey area is small and gets smaller every day.
;)

I do agree that as man's knowledge grows and he can explain what was a mystery, his attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, will be affected in many ways. But as we wait for that knowledge, we can only deal with what we have, the best way possible. For now we have a structure for our government, which is changing and growing and our religion, which is going through the same changes albeit slower. They both are for order, and consistency, and stability, basically for the whole of society, until we discover a better way, or improve on the way it is. There is room for many beliefs, thoughts, and endeavors, as we learn more about ourselves, and the culture of others, and the conflicts that come with change, and no compromise.

[QUOTE=Credendovidis
It is only on the Christianity board that one feels that constant attempt to put pressure towards conversion.
Why can (some) Christians not understand that one can be interested in their religion without any need or wish to become a Christian? Their pushy approach only adds up to resentment.
;)[/QUOTE]

You won't like my response any more than you did Chuck's, but I think it needs to be said again.

Christians know what the devastation will be in the end. We know what is going to happen to unbelievers. We care! We do what we do--because we don't want to see anyone lost.
I know, I know, you don't believe in hell, but we do. We know it is a real place and we are doing the very best we can to keep people from ending up there. I hate being pushy but it has to be said before it's to late.

Christians know what the devastation will be in the end. We know what is going to happen to unbelievers. We care! We do what we do--because we don't want to see anyone lost.
WRONG - TOTALLY WRONG. You do not know that (know as in "factual") : you BELIEVE that!
Nothing wrong with belief, but once you mix up belief with reality you make no longer any sense.
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I know, I know, you don't believe in hell, but we do.
Totally correct! And yes I agree : you BELIEVE that!
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We know it is a real place and we are doing the very best we can to keep people from ending up there.
Again : no you don't know that (know as in "factual") : you BELIEVE that!
Nothing wrong with belief, but once you mix up belief with reality you make no longer any sense.
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I hate being pushy but it has to be said before it's to late.
You do not hate being pushy. You are pushy around the entire board. So you seem to love that!
But that aside : too late for WHAT? For something real, or for something you BELIEVE?
;)

If that's what you BELIEVE, that's fine. I've done what I can.

If that's what you BELIEVE, that's fine. I've done what I can.
Precisely : that is what I think is correct.
I respect your views, and can only hope you respect mine.
;)

Guys, this post is going nowhere, both sides have expressed their views, opinons and beleifs about as much as I see they can be.
In fact the last few pages have been fairly well repeated and repeated opinions from previous posts.

Anyone got any new thoughts or has this post fairly well ran its course ?

I agree, Chuck, this has become a debate about semantics more than a discussion about the original post.

I'd hate to see the thread closed, but rather back on track.

Yes, that is why I posted the comment instead of just closing it,
If the OP believes it has ran its course I have no problem,
** trying to just bring some new blood ( so to spead) into it.

But after 10 pages I don't see any real movement since page 5 or 6

So what do the rest of the thread posters thing

*** if we keep it moving I will delete my posts as not to dirty up the threads

That's up to you and everyone else, Chuck. I just know I'm done.

Well I'd really like to see a response to my post #60 on page 6, which has a follow up post #67 on page 7... but maybe that's just me! :D

MAYBE I NEED TO PUT IT IN BOLD RED CAPS INSTEAD?

Yeah... that was probably uncalled for, but oh well! :D

Well I'd really like to see a response to my post #60 ...
I replied to that in post 61 (a response to inthebox - as it was a near-similar remark... )

The question "Do you want to believe in God?" was replied with :
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It's not IF I want to believe.
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Further in that reply I explained my position. That it is not a case of want, but of can't.
Most Christians seem to think that believing in a deity/deities is an open option, available to all. They are wrong. That option is only a valid position for them.
However most non-believers are unable to believe in a deity/deities. For them that idea is totally invalid.
So it's not WANTING or NOT WANTING to believe in God.
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That also is - together with the absence of any objective support for the Christian belief to be valid - the reason why I object against Christians using the word WRONG when referring to non-belief. For them it may seem wrong. But is it wrong? If that were true they would be able to provide objective support for their own belief...
;)

Chuck : as far as I am concerned you may close this topic : As a non-believer I am open and interested in the Christian religion. I never disclaimed nor supported it's validity. That same approach towards non-believers is however not seen from many of those who believe in Christianity... How intolerant!
;)
May I ask to close this topic straight away, and not wait till there are another ten or so reactions with remarks directed at me by others? Because in that case I would like to post a few "final comments" before you close this topic.
;)

Actually, no, you didn't answer my question, not at all. You answered if you want to believe, I didn't ask that.

I asked why you think you must "do" anything. Why you would want to "pretend"? Why you can't carry on with your life as you see fit and not worry about your eternal soul? Why it's so important to you that people say "believe" when it's not having a direct effect on your life or your government?

You replied that you are "holding up a mirror"; which means you don't want your questions answered, you want to argue. If you had a valid point behind it, that might be OK, but you don't. Or at least, you haven't expressed it. It seems you just want to argue.

Then I asked you why you are so ovewhelmed with convincing yourself to believe, or with finding a way to articulate overcoming your lack of belief; but you aren't concerned with that - you just want to argue.

I answerd your question. It all comes down to faith. That, in essence, is what every religion boils down to. Faith. You either have it or you don't. You, obviously, don't. Why does it bother you so much that other people do?

Actually, no, you didn't answer my question, not at all .....
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I asked why you think you must "do" anything. Why you would want to "pretend"?
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Any statements towards that I made in response to (many) Christians time and time again telling me I had to change my views. My statement also referred to posts on this board that are basically Pascal Wager's. All views on afterlife and whatever includes that are based on the acceptance of the Biblical claims as true. On BELIEF. Nothing else. Not on reality.
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Why you can't carry on with your life as you see fit and not worry about your eternal soul?
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I do carry on with that, thanks very much! And I do not worry about that. Why would I? All these assumptions are - a least from my point of view - based on (with all respect) religious superstition.
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As stated in the many previous posts I reacted to the repeated "advice" given by (some) Christians, even after I clearly showed no interest in that. Next to that : being married to a devout Roman Catholic for some 40 years, I am interested in that religion. Also I come in frequent contact with believers of that religion, who's often curious behaviour and views add to my interest in Christianity.
Also the strong contrasts between groups of Christians with their different views and approach (2500+ different Christian denominations), and of different attitude (from serenity to aggressive creationists and ID'ers feed my curiosity.
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Why it's so important to you that people say "believe" when it's not having a direct effect on your life or your government?
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I respect whatever any person may BELIEVES. But that does not prove that what he/she believes is factual reality. It is what he/she BELIEVES to be "true". Until objective supporting evidence for that claim is provided it remains that way.
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You replied that you are "holding up a mirror"; which means you don't want your questions answered, you want to argue.
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A strange conclusion. Holding up a mirror shows you who you are and how you think. Not who I think you are, and what I think of you.
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If you had a valid point behind it, that might be ok, but you don't. Or at least, you haven't expressed it. It seems you just want to argue.
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But I have a valid point. A very valid point. Only you - and many with you - seem so blinded by their BELIEF that they fail to see that.
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Then I asked you why you are so overwhelmed with convincing yourself to believe, or with finding a way to articulate overcoming your lack of belief; but you aren't concerned with that - you just want to argue.
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Also not true. I am not "overwhelmed" at all with doing that. All I did was show that BELIEF in a deity/deities is not a voluntary option to non-believers. And that as a result of that converting to another belief system is not something you just do. It requires reasoning, support, logic, etc. All failing in religion.
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I answered your question. It all comes down to faith. That, in essence, is what each and every religion boils down to. Faith. You either have it or you don't. You, obviously, don't. Why does it bother you so much that other people do?
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Indeed I do not have any faith in (your) Christian basics.
But that does not bother me at all. It bothers all those Christians who insist that I should change my ways and views. Who are disrespectful of my position. And to my repeated statements that I am not interested to convert myself to their religious views.
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Why should I not be interested in the Christian religion and the influence it provides to and on western society?
Why should I not react to statements by Christians of being WRONG, by those who's views are based on BELIEF and not on fact?
You do not have to BELIEVE in that religion to realize that it also has indirect influence on the lives of those who do not believe in it.
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Remember : nothing wrong with BELIEF. Please feel free to BELIEVE. And to continue to BELIEVE without ever having to provide objective support for that BELIEF.
But know that every time you claim that what you BELIEVE is true (as in reality or fact) , I will ask for objective supporting evidence for that.
Whether you like that or not.
And whether Fr Chuck and co. continue to remove my posts and/or close topics who's development is not to their personal liking.
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This entire topic is NOT about semantics. It is about the questionable position and attitude of many Christians towards those who do not believe.
It is about Christian claims of others being WRONG or suggestions that others are WRONG.
And it is about Chrisitian intolerance towards other views. And about Christian lack of respect for other views.
Unfortunately all these do not seems to be features of many Christian individuals here on this board.
;)

And it is about Chrisitian intolerance towards other views. And about Christian lack of respect for other views.

While I can agree with you to a point, I can say that this is not entirely true. There are those that don't wear their religion, or beliefs on their sleeves, and are very respectful of anothers belief. I don not let the actions of some, sway my interactions with the good people, who don't engage in offensive, desrespectful behavior. You find those people in all religions, not just Chritianity. FOR SOME HUMANS, That's THE BEST THEY CAN DO!!

While I can agree with you to a point, I can say that this is not entirely true.
I have clearly and repeatedly stated that I refer to the more conservative and aggressive group of Christians.
But I can not state that in EVERY line and paragraph...
:rolleyes:

Credendovidis, I think you are absorbed with your views and lack the ability to objectively respect anyone else's views. The reason I think this is:


Only you - and many with you - seem so blinded by their BELIEF that they fail to see that.


Indeed I do not have any faith in (your) Christian basics


But know that every time you claim that what you BELIEVE is true (as in reality or fact) , I will ask for objective supporting evidence for that.
Whether you like that or not.

You must have missed it in my early post, so let me put it in terms you might understand:

I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN. I AM AN ATHEIST, A HEATHEN, A NON-BELIEVER. BUT I HAVE RESPECT FOR OTHERS, AND I HAVE A BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHY PEOPLE BELIEVE THE WAY THEY DO - FAITH.

Here's the thing, your approach, it sucks. You're confrontational. Your're demanding, and apparently you read what you want in people's posts (since you think I'm a Christian) and react to it instead of comprehending what has been written (please see my sig for help with that). Is it one of those, "If you aren't with me, you must be against me" things? Isn't that a Christian principle? This entire thread has been an example of you pushing your standards on others, while you are unwilling or unable to accept that from others. You're completely inflexible. You object to Christians who verbally assault you for your lack of belief, yet here you are verbally assaulting people for not phrasing things the way YOU want them phrased. Instead of having this argument (I can't believe, which, for the record, I agree with) with an individual on this board who has actually bullied you into it, you have decided to launch a pseudo-attack on all the theists on this board, and condemn them all when they don't refer to something as their BELIEF.

You say it doesn't bother you that other people BELIEVE, but apparently it does, because you just can't get over that their reality is different than your own. It is apparent to me you want to argue. You want to prove your point, you want everyone to say something is their belief, no matter what the basis in their post is (you do it in other threads too).

So carry on, since I'm sure none of this will have any effect. I encourage you again to use your "ignore" button for people who demand you convert to their beliefs. If it bothers you so much, you're probably better served ignoring them, because honestly, people who behave in that manner are not going to change their approach because some guy on the interwebs said so.

And with that, I'm unsubscribing.

Reaction to jillianleab
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Re. your own personal views :
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As this is a Christianity board all my posts are focused on that religion. Your personal religious preference is not relevant here. Nor is mine.
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Re. your reaction :
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And all that because I keep pointing out the difference between BELIEVING something and CLAIMING that what one BELIEVES is not FACTUAL till one provides objective supporting evidence for that claim?
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What one BELIEVES may be a form of reality to that specific BELIEVER, but it may SEEM as foolish and/or wrong to anyone else. Note : I do not say that such a person IS a fool or wrong.
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Re. your statement "... I HAVE A BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHY PEOPLE BELIEVE THE WAY THEY DO - FAITH."
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I also have that understanding. And do in no way attack people for what they believe and for their faith.
But that does not mean that what Christians believe is reality, nor that they have the right to qualify others for their views ... Christians have the mission "to spread the word". Not to push it through other peoples throat.
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Re. your allegation : "... and (you) lack the ability to objectively respect anyone else's views... " :
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Respect never can be "objective". Either you respect other people and/or other peoples views, or you don't. Showing respect is something else than agreeing.
I nearly always show respect for other (religious) views. I even add frequently lines like "With all respect" in situations where one has to strongly oppose something stated by someone else.
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In my entire life I have always been extremely tolerant to other (religious) views.
I often add to my posts lines like "from me you may believe anything you prefer. I even support your right to do that."
Of course you can always start nitpicking and lifting words and sentences out of their wider context...
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I started this topic to underline :
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- the actually negative approach towards non-Christians by calling their views here on this board WRONG
- the resulting de-motivation of non-Christians by bombarding them with quotes based on belief only.
- that what one believes is just that : BELIEF. And that it only becomes true by providing objected evidence.
- the approach as if one can swap personal belief as if it is a book page. Specially in the view that people stating that, often also mention that their own belief is as solid as a rock. So why should whatever I believe be any different than solid like a rock?
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Your approach here... well... really amazing...
;)