NYC requires a vaccine passport to eat in restaurants ;go to the gym ,and theatres ,
Meanwhile a few hours away at Penn State ,over 100,000 people packed into Beaver Stadium to watch a football game

What to know about the city’s vaccine passport rules (ny1.com) (https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2021/08/13/what-to-know-about-the-city-s-vaccine-passport-rules-that-start-monday)


Attendance for Auburn-Penn State White Out among the largest in Beaver Stadium's history (saturdaytradition.com) (https://saturdaytradition.com/penn-state-football/attendance-for-auburn-penn-state-white-out-among-the-largest-in-beaver-stadiums-history/)

and this was the crowd at MetLife Stadium across the river in NJ last weekend .

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_nUu0aX0Agyq2C?format=jpg&name=900x900

Perfect example of the fractured nature of American federalism.

It is as it should be.

Yeah on one side of the Hudson River liberty .Across the river tyranny .

Yeah on one side of the Hudson River liberty .Across the river tyranny .

If you're promoting Penn State as a thoughtful role model, remember this is the school that put football ahead of child sexual abuse. Not only Paterno, but the president, vp, athletic director and other top leadership. Some of these bums are in jail.

The school will probably be a super-spreader in the next few weeks, sickening and killing spectators and others in honor of the God of football

There have been packed stadium for weeks in the US Where are the super spreader events . I went to Clemson last Sunday morning . The place was still packed with partiers from the Saturday evening game . I highly recommend going to any campus on game days . I used to go to West Point and the cadets are party animals .

Where are the super spreader events

Trump's rallies - hell, he killed his own people at them - wasn't Cain a victim. Then there was the motorcycle thing - Covid infections were traced to that from 40+ states and hundreds infected.


I went to Clemson last Sunday morning . The place was still packed with partiers from the Saturday evening game . I highly recommend going to any campus on game days . I used to go to West Point and the cadets are party animals .

I would caution against that advice.

Hundreds of thousands maskless fans have attended football games this month joyously yelling in celebration of their teams .Should've heard of at least some of them tracing into super spreader events by now .

I also applaud the Aussies who are pushing back against ridiculous intolerable restrictions .

Considering that the majority of college students are liberal dems, then there are thousands of liberal dems in those big crowds. I wonder how many of the people at a Penn State game are liberal dems? Most? Perhaps people are figuring out that the otherwise healthy, under fifty crowd carries a very small risk from Covid.

The covid death rate in SD where the biker rally was held is incredibly low. They've had about fifty deaths since May. Cali can have several times that number in a single day.

The covid death rate in SD where the biker rally was held is incredibly low. They've had about fifty deaths since May. Cali can have several times that number in a single day.
Not true. My brother hasn't attended for the past two years because its a superspreader event.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/09/02/covid-surges-nearly-700-in-south-dakota-after-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-an-even-higher-rate-than-last-year/?sh=786455ce74c6

Considering that the majority of college students are liberal dems, then there are thousands of liberal dems in those big crowds. I wonder how many of the people at a Penn State game are liberal dems? Most? Perhaps people are figuring out that the otherwise healthy, under fifty crowd carries a very small risk from Covid.

You knew this was going to happen, so put up or stop making such misinformed generalisations.

Not true. My brother hasn't attended for the past two years because its a superspreader event.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/09/02/covid-surges-nearly-700-in-south-dakota-after-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-an-even-higher-rate-than-last-year/?sh=786455ce74c6

Nothing like a fact-based article from Forbes to set the record straight.


You knew this was going to happen, so put up or stop making such misinformed generalisations.

Misinformed generalizations are his stock-in-trade.

misinformed generalisations.Misinformed? How? This is a completely accurate statement. "Perhaps people are figuring out that the otherwise healthy, under fifty crowd carries a very small risk from Covid." Anyone with any functioning brain at all can see that here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

Or here. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html

And that doesn't even take into account those who had co-morbidities which the over-fifty crowd is far more likely to have. In Cali, almost 40% of the deaths are in those 80 and over. Why do you suppose 40% of the deaths are in such a small part of the population?

Yet again you avoid the actual point.

Your misinformed generalisation is right here:


Considering that the majority of college students are liberal dems, then there are thousands of liberal dems in those big crowds. I wonder how many of the people at a Penn State game are liberal dems? Most?

Now stop playing silly and, as I said earlier, put up or, well you know the rest.

Under 50's carry a smaller risk of Dying from Covid, as apposed to contracting it in the first place.

WG, these are the figures I referred to. You will see they were accurate.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=covid+infection+rates&qs=HS&pq=covid&sc=8-5&cvid=BDF29073E13B4E9390F99DA34C1A312C&FORM=CHRDEF&sp=1

WG, these are the figures I referred to. You will see they were accurate.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=covid+infection+rates&qs=HS&pq=covid&sc=8-5&cvid=BDF29073E13B4E9390F99DA34C1A312C&FORM=CHRDEF&sp=1
And were the bikers all from the Dakotas, SD in particular?

Under 50's carry a smaller risk of Dying from Covid, as apposed to contracting it in the first place.You have data for that? At any rate, dying is far more serious than being sick. My statement was correct.


Now stop playing silly and, as I said earlier, put up or, well you now the rest.I am going on this data. College educated voters largely vote democrat. And if you guesses that college educated people...used to be college students, then you get to go to the front of the line.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/11/education-gap-explains-american-politics/575113/

Now you can put up or...you know. Who's playing silly now?

The second part you seemed to have indigestion over was simply a question. You know, like speculation? "I wonder how many of the people at a Penn State game are liberal dems? Most?" I said that since PS is a well know liberal school. Could my guess be wrong? Yes, and that's why I used a question mark.


And were the bikers all from the Dakotas, SD in particular?I have no idea. The point is that SD has an incredibly low infection/death rate, so those bikers who came in from all over must not have brought Covid with them.

The point is that SD has an incredibly low infection/death rate, so those bikers who came in from all over must not have brought Covid with them.

You have no excuse for your ignorance. Read the Forbes article WG posted.

The point is that SD has an incredibly low infection/death rate, so those bikers who came in from all over must not have brought Covid with them.
Biology professor Anna Yeung-Cheung of Manhattanville College, a private school in Purchase, New York, was appalled when told about the rally.

“Oh my God … where do they get all these people?” she said. “That’s very scary.”

Yeung-Cheung echoed other experts in noting that while the number of cases is low in South Dakota, at least so far, the problem is that bikers from across the country are coming to the Black Hills.


Thousands of unvaccinated, unmasked people traveling across the country. An ultra-contagious new variant. Overloaded hospitals. If you thought it could get no worse, think again.
Tom Lawrence

(https://www.thedailybeast.com/author/tom-lawrence)Updated Aug. 12, 2021 12:54PM ET Published Aug. 11, 2021 4:58AM ET


https://www.thedailybeast.com/sturgis-rally-bikers-in-south-dakota-are-unvaccinated-unmasked-and-coming-for-america?ref=scroll

You get one guess why my brother, an avid cyclist since his teens, didn't go to Sturgis the past two years.

I am going on this data. College educated voters largely vote democrat. And if you guesses that college educated people...used to be college students, then you get to go to the front of the line.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/11/education-gap-explains-american-politics/575113/

Now you can put up or...you know. Who's playing silly now?

That's an OpEd piece based on exit polls, hardly empirical evidence.
Very much mixing apples and oranges to produce Mustangs.

Probably best to not continue with this line as it may end up badly.

Lots of Covid related stuff here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/coronavirus
Some of it an eye opener, especially the infection rates in under 20's..

I don't care what your brother did.


Biology professor Anna Yeung-Cheung of Manhattanville College, a private school in Purchase, New York, was appalled when told about the rally.

“Oh my God … where do they get all these people?” she said. “That’s very scary.”Yeah. What a scholarly reply. "Oh my God, it's like, you know, really scary you guys! Golly gee whiz!" Why would anyone care what an unknown bio prof from an unknown small private college say?

Another site verifying the very low death rate in SD.

https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/

For the record, I'm not supporting the biker rally. Don't really know much about it, but it sure didn't seem to cause any major problems in SD. And the Forbes article relied on info from the NY Slimes.


That's an OpEd piece based on exit polls, hardly empirical evidence.
Very much mixing apples and oranges to produce Mustangs.

Probably best to not continue with this line as it may end up badly.Where is your data?

When you open up with comments like this, "Now stop playing silly and, as I said earlier, put up or, well you know the rest," then you shouldn't expect people to be happy with it. You want nice, then try passing out nice. Is that fair?

I don't care what your brother did.

Another site verifying the very low death rate in SD.
My brother is still alive because he avoided the covidy Sturgis rally

The SD death rate is NOT the issue!

And the Forbes article relied on info from the NY Slimes.

Hahaha - that's not much of a rebuttal, is it? I love how these right-wing loonies slam whatever doesn't support their stupidity.

My brother is still alive because he avoided the covidy Sturgis rally

The SD death rate is NOT the issue!I'm happy he's alive. I don't care if he goes to biker rallies or not.

The SD stats are important because of the grand proclamation that the rally was a super-spreader. Two different data sets rebut that assertion.

The second link I posted shows TWO Covid deaths in SD in the past seven days. That's a super-spreader??? What would just an "ordinary spreader" be?

The SD stats are important because of the grand proclamation that the rally was a super-spreader. Two different data sets rebut that assertion.

The second link I posted shows TWO Covid deaths in SD in the past seven days. That's a super-spreader??? What would just an "ordinary spreader" be?
We. Don't. Care. About. The. Covid. Death. Rate. In. SD.

The bikers, unvaccinated, unmasked, came from all over the US. At the end of the rally, they returned to their home states and proceeded to spread covid to family, friends, coworkers, and even strangers.

Where is your data?

When you open up with comments like this, "Now stop playing silly and, as I said earlier, put up or, well you know the rest," then you shouldn't expect people to be happy with it. You want nice, then try passing out nice. Is that fair?
Hang on a cotton picking minute, you are the one relying on a misleading OpEd to validate your misinformed generalisations, so, therefore it's up to you to actually demonstrate that your comment has some validity.

We. Don't. Care. About. The. Covid. Death. Rate. In. SD.

The bikers, unvaccinated, unmasked, came from all over the US. At the end of the rally, they returned to their home states and proceeded to spread covid to family, friends, coworkers, and even strangers.If the biker deal in Sturgis was really an SS, then much of the population of Sturgis would be infected. In fact, that is not the case, and you have shown no evidence that the bikers left and went back home spreading the virus. It is pure conjecture. And the bikers certainly didn't catch the virus in SD which has a LOW INFECTION RATE!!

Why do thinking people care about the SD death rate? Because a SS in SD would have spread the virus and caused the death rate to skyrocket. It didn't.

Another question. The biker rally was in one town, that being Sturgis. How could that have caused the entire state of SD to have a Covid spike?


CB, you made this statement.


Under 50's carry a smaller risk of Dying from Covid, as apposed to contracting it in the first place.

I'm waiting on documentation and it's been many a cotton pickin minute.

You happy with the Pew Research Center? "In Pew Research Center’s August survey (https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/08/18/clinton-trump-supporters-have-starkly-different-views-of-a-changing-nation/), registered voters with a college degree or more education favor Clinton over Trump by 23 percentage points (52% Clinton vs. 29% Trump) in a four-way contest that included Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson (supported by 11% of voters with at least a college degree) and Green Party candidate Jill Stein (4%)."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/09/15/educational-divide-in-vote-preferences-on-track-to-be-wider-than-in-recent-elections/

Does that get your cotton picked?

If the biker deal in Sturgis was really an SS, then much of the population of Sturgis would be infected.
Nope. Apparently, you have never attended the "biker deal" in Sturgis.

Why do thinking people care about the SD death rate? Because a SS in SD would have spread the virus and caused the death rate to skyrocket. It didn't.
Thinking people have no interest in the SD death rate. That has nothing to do with anything.

Another question. The biker rally was in one town, that being Sturgis. How could that have caused the entire state of SD to have a Covid spike?
Probably because the bikers went to drive-ups and restaurants, gas stations, motels, Walmart and other stores. The owners/employees spread covid germs to others throughout the state.

Why do thinking people care about the SD death rate? Because a SS in SD would have spread the virus and caused the death rate to skyrocket. It didn't.


Thinking people have no interest in the SD death rate. That has nothing to do with anything.Thinking people can read the statement above and figure it out in about two seconds or less.


Probably because the bikers went to drive-ups and restaurants, gas stations, motels, Walmart and other stores. The owners/employees spread covid germs to others throughout the state.They could IF THEY WERE INFECTED. But as thinking people now know, the infection rate in SD is low. Try again. But even at that, it is all speculation by you. You have no evidence at all, and that's bad for a former librarian and self-proclaimed Google search expert.

They could IF THEY WERE INFECTED. But as thinking people now know, the infection rate in SD is low. Try again.
As I already explained, the bikers came from all over the US, not just from SD. Then they returned home TO OTHER STATES, taking covid germs with them that bikers FROM OTHER STATES had brought with them to the rally.

Just more conjecture. You have no evidence for that. How do you know that most of them weren't vaccinated or had acquired immunity by having Covid in the past? Were you there? Did you follow any of them home? How do you know this?

Look, I'm not in favor of giant bike rallies. It strikes me as foolish. I'd like to see everyone get vaxed and let's try to get past this. But I'm in no mood for fairy tales either, and if these people know the risk and choose to take it, then that's on them.

Just more conjecture. You have no evidence for that. How do you know that most of them weren't vaccinated or had acquired immunity by having Covid in the past? Were you there? Did you follow any of them home? How do you know this?
How do you know otherwise? My brother hasn't attended for two years for a good reason. Bikers are free spirits. Go to a meeting at your local bikers' club and ask how many have been vaccinated for covid.

Look, I'm not in favor of giant bike rallies. It strikes me as foolish. I'd like to see everyone get vaxed and let's try to get past this. But I'm in no mood for fairy tales either, and if these people know the risk and choose to take it, then that's on them.
Similar to the risks that (unvaccinated?) Trump fans chose to take at his rallies.

Conjecture matched by more conjecture.

Manhattanville College, a private school in Purchase, New York,

hard for them to have a super spreader event at a football game .... because they don't have a football team. They hardly have any sports program at all . They only have 1400 enrolled . Maybe the professor should venture out into the real world

100,000s of thousands in the US have attended outdoor sporting events in the last couple of months mask- less ,and packed together ,cheering loudly ,dancing and celebrating . If these were super spreader events you would have heard about it by now.

you know where there is a super spreader event ? There is one on the southern border every day . But not to worry . Jen (Baghdad Bob) Psaki says not to worry. The illegals don't need to follow the rules because (now get this ) they don't intend to stay here .


DOOCY: I have a question about what’s going on at the border is somebody asking the foreign nationals who are walking in and Del Rio, Texas and setting up camps on this side of the border for proof of vaccination or a negative COVID test?
PSAKI: Well, first of all I can I can re-address for you, or re-talk you through what steps we take–
DOOCY: That’s the policy for people who fly into the country. So if somebody walks into the country, right across the river, does somebody asked them to see their vaccination card?
PSAKI: Well, let me explain to you again, Peter, how our process works. As individuals, as individuals come across the border, and they are both assessed for whether they have any symptoms, if they have symptoms they are, the intention is for them to be quarantined, that is our process. They’re not intending to stay here for a lengthy period of time. I don’t think it’s the same thing. It’s not the same thing. These are individuals, as we’ve noted, and as we’ve been discussed, we’re expelling individuals based on Title 42, specifically because of COVID, because we want to prevent a scenario where large numbers of people are gathering, posing a threat to the community and also to the migrants themselves. So, those are the policies that we put in place, in large part because, again, the CDC continues to recommend Title 42 to be in place given we’re facing a global pandemic.

They have flown some illegal Haitians back to Haiti. Other illegals that have crossed the border are flown to locations across the country often without the consent of the local authorities . Towns closer to the border have had to spend tremendous scarce resources to set up clinics to deal with the health of illegals who have crossed the border . But it is a good thing we have a handle on those nasty Europeans who are here on business or on vacation.

you know where there is a super spreader event ? There is one on the southern border every day .Exactly correct except that this one is sponsored by our own government. It is the greatest disgrace of the current liberal dem administration. That's really saying something considering the level of competition for that award. But we can be encouraged by reminding ourselves that KH is in charge of the southern border and will doubtless have it all under control very soon.


, if they have symptoms they are, the intention is for them to be quarantined, that is our process. They’re not intending to stay here for a lengthy period of time.That has "evasion" written all over it.

There have now been many weeks of these mass gatherings at sports arenas . I have yet to hear of any of them being reported as super spreader events . What I read is the opposite .Cases are declining .

Very true. I've been watching the same thing. It seems that Americans are learning to adjust to Covid.

Very true. I've been watching the same thing. It seems that Americans are learning to adjust to Covid.
They're getting covid shots, wearing masks, and social distancing when indoors. I was out and about on Thursday to finally get covid and flu shots, and was thrilled to see the cooperative efforts! My Facebook friends all over the US are reporting similar situations, even in Texas (but only partially in Oklahoma).

So I am right in saying these mandates are about government power and not about public safety . Elimination of the virus is not possible .
The coronavirus is here to stay — here’s what that means (nature.com) (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2)

"We want to do better than just control. We want to be on the brink of elimination," (Herr Doctor Fauci)

How effective is the vaccine ? Does it prevent catching the virus ? No Does it prevent spreading the virus ? No . The virus has a 99% survival rate so it does not effectively control virus deaths . On top of that they loose effectiveness in a matter of weeks .That is why they want to double down with boosters .

So someone is forced to make a choice . Take an ineffective jab or lose their jobs and social liberty .

So someone is forced to make a choice . Take an ineffective jab or lose their jobs and social liberty .Just about right. There are so many people now who take liberty for granted and don't value our freedoms. They are all too willing to trade them away for a little supposed security. As Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

As Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Abolish the draft! Only volunteers need apply!

The draft was abolished and the draft/conscription ended in 1973 .It has always been a point of contention . The power granted in the Constitution is not disputed . Article 1 Sec 8 Clause 15 implies Congress has the power to draft or to assemble the military as needed Clause 16 gives Congress the power to fund the military . with Article 2 makes the President CIC . The first Congress in 1792 defined those who could be called up as able bodied males between 18-45 .

The most famous draft opposition was during the Civil War where it took armed troops in NYC to put down draft riots .

Can the draft be unabolished if we go to war again?

Only by an act of Congress .The draft is abolished . There is a selective service system so the country will be prepared in case a draft is needed .It was abolished during Ford's term but was quickly reinstated by an EO by Jimmy Carter during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan .Various attempts to eliminate it since have failed.

The most famous draft opposition was during the Civil War where it took armed troops in NYC to put down draft riots .

This is a tad misleading. The opposition was not to the draft itself, it was to the fact that the rich could pay for a substitute to go in their place. The $300 price tag was far beyond the means of the recently arrived immigrants from Ireland to pay.

The Irish served in great numbers for the Union. Several thousand also served for the Confederacy.

The underlying issue was race. Robert E Lee understood that the North itself was divided over the issue . The riots in NYC and Boston occurred shortly after his failed invasion of the North in 1863. The Irish may have been angry about the buy out provision that they could not afford . But a bigger concern was the Blacks migrating North and taking longshore jobs.
Labor Competition and the New York Draft Riots of 1863 on JSTOR (https://www.jstor.org/stable/2715371?mag=race-and-labor-in-the-1863-new-york-city-draft-riots&seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents)

The underlying issue was race.

As regards the draft riots, the issue was the price to get out of it. Race had nothing to do with it.

Race had everything to do with it . Firefighters on a rampage torched businesses that hired Blacks including Brooks Brothers, Harper’s Weekly, and Knickerbockers. They torched an orphanage that housed Black children and they attacked homes of known abolitionists .

Here is a report about the torching of 'The Colored Orphan Asylum ' .

While the mob was focused on breaking into the building, the superintendent of the Asylum, William E. Davis, and the head matron, Jane McClellan, quietly led 233 children out the back entrance. A crew of firefighters of Hook and Ladder Company No. 2, valiantly fought the flames. Two firemen, Chief Engineer Decker and Paddy McCaffrey, showed exceptional bravery trying in vain to put out the fire, while fighting the angry mob.
The children were taken to the Twentieth Precinct building which was located on 35th Street near 7th Avenue where they remained for the next three days until the riots ended. At least 120 people were killed and more than 2,000, all mostly African Americans, were injured. The children from the Orphans Asylum, however, were moved to Blackwell’s Island (now Roosevelt Island), along with many other African American refugees whose homes had been burned by the mob. All Asylum children survived the riots, and after a short time at Governor’s Island, they were moved to a residence in Carmansville.
The Colored Orphans Asylum of New York (1836-1946) • (blackpast.org) (https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/colored-orphans-asylum-new-york-1836-1946/)

That death toll is a gross underestimation . Deaths due to the riots were at least in the 660 range and possibly in the thousand range . The 120 number is what the police reported .
The death of Ebrahim Franklin was typical of what happened during the riots Franklin was in church, praying. He was a disabled man who made his living working as a carriage driver. The mob beat him to his death in the church . They then dragged him outside and hung him in the church yard in front of his mother. They then mutilated his corpse. Over 3,000 Blacks homes were destroyed . That was about 25% of all the Black families living in the city . Many of them left the city never to return,

So yes the riot began because the rich could buy out, It swiftly morphed into an anti-Black riot. The mob did not want to fight for emancipation because free Blacks threatened their jobs.

The reply above is a good example of stating a point and then providing support for it. Well done.

So yes the riot began because the rich could buy out, It swiftly morphed into an anti-Black riot. The mob did not want to fight for emancipation because free Blacks threatened their jobs.

The DRAFT riots began for the reasons I've stated. The anti-Black attitudes were there before and after the riots. To assign the DRAFT riots to racism is to misread history.

The DRAFT riots began for the reasons I've stated. The anti-Black attitudes were there before and after the riots. To assign the DRAFT riots to racism is to misread history.
There is no documentation for that statement as opposed to what Tom provided.

It is true that the passage of a conscription law was the spark that ignited the fire. It is also true that there was a great deal of angst amongst white workers about emancipated black workers competing for their jobs. So it would be, I suppose, a fair statement that BOTH racism and the draft law were at the root of the violence.

"By far the worst violence was reserved for African-American men, a number of whom were lynched or beaten to death with shocking brutality. In all, the published death toll of the New York City draft riots was 119 people, though estimates of the actual number of people killed reached as high as 1,200."




https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/draft-riots