No. I am saying that people make decisions and they need to live with their decisions. It is not for you, according to your own profession, to force your belief on other people and compel them to support someone else. You are the one who said we should not do that. Have you changed your mind?

Seem like I was out voted on the fence decades ago, seems you are out voted on abortion rights. Neither of us has given up and I doubt we move to another country.

Having sex outside of marriage is the mistake. I've been plain about that. The man is as guilty as the woman.
And that mistake creates a huge problem. What do you think should be done with all those unloved and unwanted children?

So explain to us how you can kill an unborn child in a God-affirming way. If you do so, don't try to dodge the fact that you are killing the child.
If the baby is already dead or dying, if the OB informs the mother that the baby must be aborted in order to save her life, if a fetus in its earliest stages is not wanted (incest, rape).

I would suggest we go back to a culture of men and women having sex (and babies) within the confines of marriage. Again, a very simple solution that worked in this country for many, many decades.
You're an educator??? Men have gotten women pregnant outside of marriage throughout human history. The population was much smaller and communication wasn't like now, so only family members and locals knew. And let's talk about white plantation owners and black slave women....

In short, too many men haven't respected women, have wanted their needs filled RIGHT NOW, and don't understand the word "no."

They perform more than 300 thousand abortions a year. You are kidding yourself.
Wonder who does all the other millions.

"Between 2010-2014, the Guttmacher Institute estimates that approximately 56 million abortions occurred each year around the globe."

If the baby is already dead or dying, if the OB informs the mother that the baby must be aborted in order to save her life, if a fetus in its earliest stages is not wanted (incest, rape).

So here is what I do not understand. If a fetus is not wanted, then you say we can kill it and God will affirm that. So what about after the child is born? Does that still hold true? If not, then what is it about the child being early in the pregnancy that makes it OK to kill it because it is not wanted? Think about that. "We don't want you, little kid, so we are going to kill you!"

This argument really stuns me. There are growing numbers of animal shelters that will not put an animal down (kill it) under any circumstances even though, plainly, some of them are not wanted. But that excuse works for human beings? Please explain that.


You're an educator??? Men have gotten women pregnant outside of marriage throughout human history. The population was much smaller and communication wasn't like now, so only family members and locals knew. And let's talk about white plantation owners and black slave women....

That is a distortion of the truth. Out of wedlock births amongst whites was about 3% in 1960. It is now about ten times than number. The increase amongst blacks is equally dramatic. Please don't make such a silly assertion that sexual morality is about the same now as it was decades ago. It is nonsense.

So here is what I do not understand. If a fetus is not wanted, then you say we can kill it and God will affirm that. So what about after the child is born? Does that still hold true? If not, then what is it about the child being early in the pregnancy that makes it OK to kill it because it is not wanted? Think about that. "We don't want you, little kid, so we are going to kill you!"
You'd rather know that child is being starved, beaten, and/or sexually abused? Personally, I'd rather be aborted.

This argument really stuns me. There are growing numbers of animal shelters that will not put an animal down (kill it) under any circumstances even though, plainly, some of them are not wanted. But that excuse works for human beings? Please explain that.
I believe in euthanasia for animals with severe physical problems. The financial resources needed to keep them alive could be saving healthy animals from a bad life.

That is a distortion of the truth. Out of wedlock births amongst whites was about 3% in 1960. It is now about ten times than number. The increase amongst blacks is equally dramatic. Please don't make such a silly assertion that sexual morality is about the same now as it was decades ago. It is nonsense.
Weren't you around in the '60s? Don't you know how women helped each other end unwanted pregnancies, of which there were surprisingly many, especially among teen girls? Of course, there are no stats, and they didn't tell the menfolk. And that's been true throughout history.

You'd rather know that child is being starved, beaten, and/or sexually abused? Personally, I'd rather be aborted.

So if a child is being beaten, starved, or sexually abused, is it OK to kill the child now? You see, that's what my question to you is. Why is it OK to kill the child before birth but not afterwards? Why do you make that distinction?

Who better to ask then the babies who survived abortions, or are they just disposable body parts?

So if a child is being beaten, starved, or sexually abused, is it OK to kill the child now? You see, that's what my question to you is. Why is it OK to kill the child before birth but not afterwards? Why do you make that distinction?
Promise me you'll jump in to save that child from further abuse. Foster it? Or maybe we taxpayers can each chip in a few shekels to help that child!

For many CENTURIES woman never told a soul except trusted ones they had an abortion. Now that we know because they tell. I take it you liked blissful ignorance better. LOL, married women have abortions and end pregnancies, but no one can screw with them, just the poor women, and especially unmarried poor women.



So if a child is being beaten, starved, or sexually abused, is it OK to kill the child now? You see, that's what my question to you is. Why is it OK to kill the child before birth but not afterwards? Why do you make that distinction?

That's not a very thoughtfully formed question and it's the LAW/government that makes the distinction that counts.

Promise me you'll jump in to save that child from further abuse. Foster it? Or maybe we taxpayers can each chip in a few shekels to help that child!

You are avoiding the question. As for the taxpayers, Tal has said that you cannot force others to follow your beliefs.



That's not a very thoughtfully formed question and it's the LAW/government that makes the distinction that counts.

It's a very well thought out question. I noticed you had no answer to it either.

Guys, maybe this is just words to you, but I will never understand how any adult, especially one who is a confessing Christian, can be so tolerant of the destruction of human life. We are millions and millions and millions of deaths of innocent people ahead of the Nazis. That distresses me. The most innocent and defenseless are sacrificed because they are too much of a bother to us.

You are avoiding the question. As for the taxpayers, Tal has said that you cannot force others to follow your beliefs.

You must obey the law dude, we all do right?


It's a very well thought out question. I noticed you had no answer to it either.


I did answer your question... "
it's the LAW/government that makes the distinction that counts.".



Guys, maybe this is just words to you, but I will never understand how any adult, especially one who is a confessing Christian, can be so tolerant of the destruction of human life. We are millions and millions and millions of deaths of innocent people ahead of the Nazis. That distresses me. The most innocent and defenseless are sacrificed because they are too much of a bother to us.

There is no US in decisions between an individual and their creator. Should there be?

You are avoiding the question. As for the taxpayers, Tal has said that you cannot force others to follow your beliefs.
JL 3:2,3 -- Yea, I say unto thee, it is worthy of condemnation to abort a fetus during the first trimester, yet it is permitted to close thine ears to the cries of hungry, beaten, and abused babes. Woe to those who legally coerce their countrymen to pay taxes to care for those unfortunates.

JL 3:2,3 -- Yea, I say unto thee, it is worthy of condemnation to abort a fetus during the first trimester, yet it is permitted to close thine ears to the cries of hungry, beaten, and abused babes. Woe to those who legally coerce their countrymen to pay taxes to care for those unfortunates.

So you have no answer. Sad.

So you have no answer. Sad.
I'm trying to be like you. (What was the question?) Psssst, you don't answer mine. *grump*

One excuse is about as good as another.

What is your excuse

Don't need one. I've answered her questions.

Don't need one. I've answered her questions.

Well you missed the import of my question

It's obvious, abortion is wrong. Nothing about it feels good. Those who support abortions feel the need to Justify...work to deceive themselves (and others) into believing that there is nothing wrong. Legalizing Abortion doesn't make it right.

But, But who's going to provide for the unwanted children...What the Heck are you going on about? That has absolutely nothing to do with it!!! Who is it that provided for the unwanted (Bastards...in fact what your referring too) before abortions became legal? Lets just Eliminate the little B*******, Is that the way you feel (its what your saying)? Why do you suppose they use to print "bastard" on Birth certificates?


Abortion is very far down the list of services they provide to low-income women. Their main services are prevention of pregnancy and women's health.


Is that why thousands of Teenage girls are treating abortions as form of contraceptive?

Do you understand that motives for profit may be keeping it alive.

Maybe it's wrong to you or me, but to others it's not. Those thousands of teens you say use abortions as a contraceptive is a wild asertion that you should specify. Does the over the counter without a prescription day after pills countas abortions? To me it does not. What of the rise in teen suicides?

Maybe it's wrong to you or me, but to others it's not.


Forty Years ago there were no "others".



thousands of Teenage girls are treating abortions as form of contraceptive


Let me rephrase that: recurring abortions as form of contraceptive



What is the governing force behind abortion?
Money, More Money, lies, deceit etc.

Having a (first time) abortion isn't like going to the Dentist. Before, during and after there are going to be some strong emotions...feel good moment? It's not so much the abortion itself..."Declaring" abortion as right is wrong.

Forty Years ago there were no "others".
There have always been others.

Let me rephrase that: recurring abortions.
If only the guys would keep their pants zipped up...


What is the governing force behind abortion?
Money, More Money, lies, deceit etc.
No, desperation.


Having a (first time) abortion isn't like going to the Dentist. Before, during and after there are going to be some strong emotions...feel good moment? It's not so much the abortion itself...
"Declaring" abortion as right is wrong.
Can it ever be right?

There have always been others.

"Others" who? Those who haven't had an abortion, "others" who've had multiple abortions, "others" who perform Abortions. My point; nobody goes through an abortion without some form of sorrow, feeling of wrong doing...REGARDLESS OF THE LAW (Law or no law).



If only the guys would keep their pants zipped up...


Fact of the matter still remains...



What is the governing force behind abortion?
Money, More Money, lies, deceit etc.


Edit: What is the governing force behind the abortion industry?






"Declaring" abortion as right is wrong.

Can it ever be right?














Who needs it to be?

I'm told it can be made right through repentance.

If only the guys would keep their pants zipped up...

Fact of the matter still remains...
Nope, not if the guys kept their pants zipped up. Let's start a movement to bring that about.

Strange how you always want to target the men only. If you want to start a movement, then start a movement for everyone to keep their pants zipped up. Besides, it is not the man who stands to suffer the most when a woman becomes pregnant, it is the woman. I would like for my neighbor to keep his door locked at night, but I am more concerned about my own door since I am the one at risk in that case. Women need to learn some wisdom. Insist on a ring.

not if the guys kept their pants zipped up. Let's start a movement to bring that about


Male chastity belt, are on the incline.

Strange how you always want to target the men only. If you want to start a movement, then start a movement for everyone to keep their pants zipped up. Besides, it is not the man who stands to suffer the most when a woman becomes pregnant, it is the woman. I would like for my neighbor to keep his door locked at night, but I am more concerned about my own door since I am the one at risk in that case. Women need to learn some wisdom. Insist on a ring.
There's no baby if the man keeps his pants zipped up. If you're worried about your door being locked, that is parallel to staying zipped up. Locked up, zipped up. Then nothing bad happens. Why does a women have to be at risk? And when she says no, she's too often ignored.

And when she says no, she's too often ignored.

That's called rape and is a felony.

You can keep making excuses if you want to, but the bottom line is this. It's the woman who stands to suffer when she gets pregnant out of wedlock. We need to tell young women that the only sure way to avoid that is to avoid sex. Men certainly have a part to play, but men understand all too well that they will not be the one getting pregnant. Is that scummy? Sure it is, and I'm all for challenging men to be more responsible, but men still don't get pregnant. At the very least a woman must be sure that contraceptives of some sort are being used. She is the one at risk, just like my door is my responsibility.

You can keep making excuses if you want to, but the bottom line is this. It's the woman who stands to suffer when she gets pregnant out of wedlock. We need to tell young women that the only sure way to avoid that is to avoid sex. Men certainly have a part to play, but men understand all too well that they will not be the one getting pregnant. Is that scummy? Sure it is, and I'm all for challenging men to be more responsible, but men still don't get pregnant. At the very least a woman must be sure that contraceptives of some sort are being used. She is the one at risk, just like my door is my responsibility.

And men will listen carefully to those women and agree.

And no, not rape. Sweet talking, gentle caressing, whispered promises in a dark and solitary and probably romantic location and the fact that girls/women have always been taught to defer to the male are amazingly convincing.

Don't men know how women get pregnant??? If so, then don't do it!!! Or are you saying she has to be the responsible one because she has the uterus...

.

Don't men know how women get pregnant??? If so, then don't do it!!! Or are you saying she has to be the responsible one because she has the uterus...

That would seem to be the case

Why don't guys at least buy a woman a morning after pill? Just in case she didn't. More effective than hauling a rubber around in our wallets.

No abortions, no unwanted pregnancy, everybody happy...problem solved(?)!

God has been taken out of the picture, we're hosed.

God has been taken out of the picture, we're hosed.
All the God-loving males who respect women will not make any sexual moves on them.

God has been taken out of the picture, we're hosed.

Just keep God in YOUR equations and you will be okay.

And no, not rape. Sweet talking, gentle caressing, whispered promises in a dark and solitary and probably romantic location and the fact that girls/women have always been taught to defer to the male are amazingly convincing.

Yeah. And you know how women are. Simple-minded. Undisciplined. Emotionally unstable. I mean, we just have to treat them like the children they are. We must take care of them since they plainly cannot take care of themselves. Thanks for reminding us of these things, that they certainly, in your world, are not capable of engaging in wise behavior.


Just keep God in YOUR equations and you will be okay.

Very true!

Yeah. And you know how women are. Simple-minded. Undisciplined. Emotionally unstable. I mean, we just have to treat them like the children they are. We must take care of them since they plainly cannot take care of themselves. Thanks for reminding us of these things, that they certainly, in your world, are not capable of engaging in wise behavior.
Isn't that what you claim the Bible says? Men are the caretakers and the strong, godly ones who keep their pants zipped until the wedding night.

Isn't that what you claim the Bible says? Men are the caretakers and the strong, godly ones who keep their pants zipped until the wedding night.

No. It's the very plain inference of your ideas that women cannot resist the advances of men.

Isn't it strange that I am the one who is convinced that women are fully capable of behaving wisely and not you? You just lost your membership in the Feminists of American club.

No. It's the very plain inference of your ideas that women cannot resist the advances of men.
Or men can't control themselves?

Isn't it strange that I am the one who is convinced that women are fully capable of behaving wisely and not you? You just lost your membership in the Feminists of American club.
I was simply quoting you. I didn't divulge MY convictions. Mine are well known where it counts.

I was simply quoting you. I didn't divulge MY convictions. Mine are well known where it counts.

About as untrue a statement as I have seen in a long time. You did not quote me, and you stated your convictions quite well. Yours are certainly well known now. Your statements of the last eight or ten posts are very clear.

About as untrue a statement as I have seen in a long time. You did not quote me, and you stated your convictions quite well. Yours are certainly well known now. Your statements of the last eight or ten posts are very clear.
Yup! Men hate to hear the word no.

And women, in your view, are incapable of saying it.

And women, in your view, are incapable of saying it.
Men have been blaming women since the Garden of Eden: "And the man said, 'The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.'" I.e., He cudda just told her "No, thanks."

Perhaps we can settle this with two simple statements. Most men understand what "no" means and should honor that. Most women are quite capable of saying "no" and making it stand. So perhaps we should both simply agree to encourage women to say "no" and men to understand that "no" means "no". We can then take a stand that marriage is the only appropriate and safe place for sex.

Deal?

Perhaps we can settle this with two simple statements. Most men understand what "no" means and should honor that. Most women are quite capable of saying "no" and making it stand. So perhaps we should both simply agree to encourage women to say "no" and men to understand that "no" means "no". We can then take a stand that marriage is the only appropriate and safe place for sex.

Deal?
That's been tried. Abstinence education doesn't work. Now what?

Forget it.

Men have been blaming women since the Garden of Eden: "And the man said, 'The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.'" I.e., He cudda just told her "No, thanks."


She handed it to him after she was eating it all seductive like. Of course she was (being a woman and all) deceitful in handing him a piece of fruit. She Grabbed a piece off the tree of good and Evil and stood in front of another tree when she handed it off to him. Adam had no Idea she handed him a piece of fruit from the forbidden tree! Yah, Yah that's it. Eve was a sly one.

We can then take a stand that marriage is the only appropriate and safe place for sex.
That's been tried, doesn't work. Now what?




Seemed to have worked longer than anything else. The game has changed and the Players don't believe in rules.

Seemed to have worked longer than anything else. The game has changed and the Players don't believe in rules.



Half the marriages in America end in divorce, and multiple divorces is not unusual, as in the dufus and his 3 wives. Is that the example that works so well and he cheated on them all? Marriage has not proven to be a silver bullet against flawed human nature nor abortions which is as old as marriage itself.

Marriage has not proven to be a silver bullet against flawed human nature nor abortions which is as old as marriage itself.

It worked well for centuries. Perfectly? No. Nothing does that, but it is still true that when marriage was held in high esteem, divorce was much less common as were abortions. The destruction of the family unit has been a disaster.

Hmm maybe it worked well when women were more submissive, barefoot and pregnant. They seem to have gotten more independent over the years and unwilling to stay in bad marriages. In case you haven't noticed things have changed and not just the institution of marriage. People have changed and not just the females. Abortions are declining maybe not fast enough but steadily. Girls just are not wanting to be their mothers because kids do see the wrong examples in dysfunctional marriages and it's more profound. Humans are complicated with complicated lives and issues and it's easy to trade love and commitment for a short lived feel good. Even easier with no baggage to look for the next adventure. Hey it was acceptable in the old days for men to cat around and women sit home to forgive them, and more and more women are saying screw that I can have a life outside the home too, and find love in all the wrong places.

You thumpers didn't date much before you were married did you? There was and always will be more than one kind of woman, just as there is and always will be more than one kind of man. We agree though that it's the women who get pregnant and NOT the men and it's the women who decides what to do about her pregnancy, not the men. It's always been that way. Thought you knew.

You thumpers didn't date much before you were married did you?
That's what I have gathered from this thread.

We agree though that it's the women who get pregnant and NOT the men, and it's the woman who decides what to do about her pregnancy, not the man. It's always been that way. Thought you knew.
That sums it up!

You thumpers didn't date much before you were married did you? There was and always will be more than one kind of woman, just as there is and always will be more than one kind of man. We agree though that it's the women who get pregnant and NOT the men and it's the women who decides what to do about her pregnancy, not the men. It's always been that way. Thought you knew.

Yeah. Just like there has always been racists, murderers, bank robbers, and various others who engaged in bad behavior. The point is that we should join together in saying it is wrong. And again, you are fine with killing babies in the womb. I don't even begin to understand that, but it's on you and not on me, thank the Lord.

And again, you are fine with killing babies in the womb. I don't even begin to understand that, but it's on you and not on me, thank the Lord.
And you are fine with killing babies once they've been born. I don't begin to understand that, but it's on you and not on me, thank the Lord.

This debate has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous

Yeah. Just like there has always been racists, murderers, bank robbers, and various others who engaged in bad behavior. The point is that we should join together in saying it is wrong. And again, you are fine with killing babies in the womb. I don't even begin to understand that, but it's on you and not on me, thank the Lord.

Good luck stopping people from making there own mistakes and better luck changing a bad human into a good one. The day after pill is killing a child in the womb? You need more than luck stopping humans good or bad from doing what we've been doing since we started doing it. Now find something we agree on, and can work toward together, because I just ain't about telling another human what to do.

Spare me the selective morality please as you cannot even denounce the bad behavior, words, and antics of a lying cheating dufus who scarfed trillions for him and his crew and gave you a few crumbs and now wants to cut your hard earned benefits that you can't pass to your kids. You hate debts but allow debts, so please don't talk about being the champion of babies. I suppose you need to lord it over someone to feel like you stand for something though, and that's more sad than infuriating.

You can't even give that female with four kids credit for not having an abortion, you still find a sin to condemn her for. So build your freaking wall to hide behind from needy scared families running from the same thing your peeps ran from and ignore the loonies shooting up schools, churches, movie houses, and malls, while you tell me about killing babies in the womb knowing you ain't taking care of any of them.

You got life and BS all mixed up my friend and for the life of me I do not understand it.

You got life and BS all mixed up my friend and for the life of me I do not understand it.

Unborn children in the womb. That's the lives I'm talking about. All the other stuff you talk about is just an attempt at distraction. When we talk about destroying lives in abortion, you go on a rant about walls and shootings and debt and other assorted problems, and then suggest (wrongly) I am OK with all of that. You are avoiding the issue of your support of allowing the killing of children in the womb.

I can respect your position, but obviously you dodge the direct question of the morning after pill and the topic is the border wall so I am not sure who is distracted here.
The day after pill is killing a child in the womb?

I have been clear that abortion is not my choice, but it is the choice of many and always has been. The real issue you dodge often is what to do after the deed is done?

The day after pill is killing a child in the womb?
It certainly ends the life of a human being. There is no other way to see it.


I have been clear that abortion is not my choice, but it is the choice of many and always has been.

That just won't work. It's on the same level as saying, "Murder is not my choice, but it is the choice of many." That does nothing to change the issue of the rightness or wrongness of the choice.


The real issue you dodge often is what to do after the deed is done?


I don't think I've dodged the question at all. People get to make their own decisions. We are told on this board that we cannot force our religious ideas on others. OK, but if someone wants to make her own decisions absent any input from others, then she must be prepared to take the responsibility for her own actions. Now if I choose to (and I do), then I can help her and her child, but I will not put on my "holier than thou" robe by forcing another person to help that woman. I do not agree with your idea that you can force others to do what you don't seem willing to do yourself, which is to give resources to help another person.

Might add that it is a good thing we have Christians in this world who operate crisis pregnancy centers that help young mothers rather than doing abortions like PP.

The bottom line is this. I will not lend my support, as you do, to politicians whose idea of a solution is to kill the bothersome little human being before he/she can be born, thus sparing us all the inconvenience of having to take care of the child. That way we can go back to having sex with whoever for as long as we like. I find that idea to be nauseating and a perfect description of the age in which we live where so-called "sexual freedom" is king and human lives mean very little.

So it's illegal for government to establish a safety net for those in need? You were outvoted on that LAWFULLY ,but whine if you must whether it's right or wrong. The same goes with abortion rights, and preventing unwanted pregnancy. or even gay rights. I can't stop you from expressing yourself and you can't stop me from disagreeing, nor should we right? So far you've been outvoted. Been there too.

Wasn't outvoted on abortion or gay marriage either one. Our liberal Supreme Court awarded us with those two.

Maybe you should look up the history of both before it was affirmed by SCOTUS.

And none of this will keep a single illegal immigrant out of the US

And none of this will keep a single illegal immigrant out of the US
An estimated 50,000 undocumented Irish immigrants live in the United States.

Maybe you should look up the history of both before it was affirmed by SCOTUS.

Already familiar with both.


And none of this will keep a single illegal immigrant out of the US

A wall will.

Well what do you know? The Irish have simultaneously raised the IQ of both countries

Well what do you know? The Irish have simultaneously raised the IQ of both countries
And a wall wouldn't have stopped them!

Delete.

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