And hold us out as an example of control

Police gun data shows extent of private arsenals in suburban Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-11/gun-data-shows-extent-of-private-arsenals-in-suburban-australia/9038350)

Now I notice that the anti gun lobby has fallen silent in the wake of Vegas, just in shock, I guess, but here in the bastion of gun control there are private arsenals and I wonder why, why does anyone need hundreds of guns? I mean even in the small city I live in there are 8,000 gun owners, that's the ones we know about and that represents 20% of the population and I say why, is the town overrun with wild pigs and kangaroos? Because there isn't much to shoot around here except people, crime rate is low and please don't tell me it is because of gun ownership, this statistic is unexpected

An unarmed populace is completely helpless in the face of oppression by any group bent upon imposing it. Many people understand that, and understand they have a god given civil right to defend themselves.

In the USA we have a saying... "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Meaning 12 jurors ( American legal system) rather than 6 pallbearers.48890

Well said by a guy of Euro descent whose people ran rather than fight... like so many immigrants to the USA (And migrants and refugees in general, who came here and did the same thing to the ones who were already here. You would have to be pretty paranoid to be worried about being rounded up and suppressed by the US government, unless you were black or brown. I digress as that's another thread...

@Clete

Why are you surprised that a few collectors and dealers AND enthusiasts have so many guns? Even in the wild west USA most of the guns are owned by a relative few (NOT counting criminals), but at least YOUR country knows who has what, and there is a database to draw from. Our cops are not allowed a shared national database. Maybe that's why cops here are in fear of their life and shoot to kill and ask questions later when they stop a black guy for a busted taillight.

Tal, you haven't been paying much attention to where things have been heading oh, at LEAST the last 8 years... and the crap some of the extreme left wing wacko's have been pulling this last year, St. Louis, before that in Ferguson, and to a much lesser degree in Charlottesville (never got as out of hand there because if it spilled into residential areas they would have been massacred by the property owners).

And well....the MALE side of my ancestry left because its on the historical record to what extremes England went to dealing with the Irish and the Scott's who stood up to them in the not that distant past. And well the Female side didn't fare much better in the Kaisers day.

You would have to be pretty paranoid to be worried about being rounded up and suppressed by the US government, unless you were black or brown.

Or a Branch Davidian, or a land use protestor, or married to a "separatist (meaning a guy who wants to be left alone)" and holding his baby, or a hidden camera journalist, or holding evidence against a prominent Democrat.

Tal, you haven't been paying much attention to where things have been heading oh, at LEAST the last 8 years... and the crap some of the extreme left wing wacko's have been pulling this last year, St. Louis, before that in Ferguson, and to a much lesser degree in Charlottesville (never got as out of hand there because if it spilled into residential areas they would have been massacred by the property owners).

And well....the MALE side of my ancestry left because its on the historical record to what extremes England went to dealing with the Irish and the Scott's who stood up to them in the not that distant past. And well the Female side didn't fare much better in the Kaisers day.

I didn't want to hijack the thread with a new subject, sorry 'bout that Clete, but since you chimed in Smoothy...

The history of man's migration is littered with oppression and violence, obviously a motive for you also. Glad you found a safe place to run and thrive, so have empathy for those that don't have means and resources but must escape lousy DANGEROUS conditions. That would be America, you know that beacon of light that King Reagan referred too?

Now the loony right is trying to say "It ain't so!". Yeah that's what the last 8 years has been about, getting some relief and justice from the system of racism that you easily ignore, but that's why The Dufus Show has you thrilled giddy, while you swallow his lies and picks your pocket. I know give him a chance... Okay, YOU give him a chance but don't beetch when he bankrupts YOU!


Or a Branch Davidian, or a land use protestor, or married to a "separatist (meaning a guy who wants to be left alone)" and holding his baby, or a hidden camera journalist, or holding evidence against a prominent Democrat.

My reference was to wholesale systematic discrimination and inequality based solely on RACE. I will say though that wanting to be left alone doesn't put you above the law, nor does that hidden camera stuff exempt one from closer scrutiny. A rancher who looses in a lawful court of law, and grabs a gun would have been shot if he were black or Mexican and we both know that.

That just leaves the guy holding evidence against a prominent democrat if you can clarify.

@Clete

Why are you surprised that a few collectors and dealers AND enthusiasts have so many guns? Even in the wild west USA most of the guns are owned by a relative few (NOT counting criminals), but at least YOUR country knows who has what, and there is a database to draw from. Our cops are not allowed a shared national database. Maybe that's why cops here are in fear of their life and shoot to kill and ask questions later when they stop a black guy for a busted taillight.

I'm not surprised there are collectors and as the article says we are not talking about dealers but private individuals. Criminals, when they are busted, don't have collections like these and these are not for sporting purposes so I'm surprised that, in a small city like the one I live in where no one sees anything more lethal than a car, 20% of the population, probably every second household finds it necessary to be armed. We don't have the history of mass killings and insurrection america does and there are few dangerous animals

We haven't had armed insurrection since the Civil War, but I am surprised that the mass killings haven't been addressed not withstanding public sentiments, who favor universal registration databases just in case a loony gets loose, or a collector/seller gets his arsenal ripped off or something, and who knows what lurks in the minds of men. It would seem that we would have learned the lessons of the wild west where bad guys with bad intent never just walk in politely, they ambushed and get the drop on the good guys. That's where the mass killings have stemmed from, evil, or crazy, you decide.

Appreciate the peace you have while it lasts, and I hope it doesn't get shattered by the same thing that shatters ours. High tolerance for abject INHUMAN lunacy. Fortunately so far your island paradise has not had to deal with it to the degree we have, and I hope you don't to be honest, but be aware of that todays surprise may be tomorrows shock.

If I can get over the shock a fellow like Trump being president, then I'm sure your surprise at the number of guns in your small town will soon pass also.

. I will say though that wanting to be left alone doesn't put you above the law.

But it does subject you to entrapment and being murdered by sniper fire for merely being there


nor does that hidden camera stuff exempt one from closer scrutiny..

But it does get you arrested for trespassing on public property.


A rancher who looses in a lawful court of law, and grabs a gun would have been shot if he were black or Mexican and we both know that..

Lavoy Finicum was neither.

Appreciate the peace you have while it lasts, and I hope it doesn't get shattered by the same thing that shatters ours. High tolerance for abject INHUMAN lunacy. Fortunately so far your island paradise has not had to deal with it to the degree we have, and I hope you don't to be honest, but be aware of that todays surprise may be tomorrows shock.

If I can get over the shock a fellow like Trump being president, then I'm sure your surprise at the number of guns in your small town will soon pass also.

It is precisely because lunatics like Trump exist that our peace might be shattered and tomorrow's shock maybe that Trump forgot to take his meds. Very soon he is going to stand on the NK border and I hope he doesn't shout insults over the fence. His timing visiting SK is unfortunate

This Finicum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVoy_Finicum.


On January 26, 2016, law enforcement officers attempted to arrest Finicum and other occupation leaders while they were traveling on a remote highway away from the occupation site. After fleeing the officers, Finicum was stopped by a roadblock, where he challenged officers to shoot him. He was shot and killed by state troopers while moving his hands toward his pocket, where officers later found a loaded weapon.

I didn't want to hijack the thread with a new subject, sorry 'bout that Clete, but since you chimed in Smoothy...

The history of man's migration is littered with oppression and violence, obviously a motive for you also. Glad you found a safe place to run and thrive, so have empathy for those that don't have means and resources but must escape lousy DANGEROUS conditions. That would be America, you know that beacon of light that King Reagan referred too?

Now the loony right is trying to say "It ain't so!". Yeah that's what the last 8 years has been about, getting some relief and justice from the system of racism that you easily ignore, but that's why The Dufus Show has you thrilled giddy, while you swallow his lies and picks your pocket. I know give him a chance... Okay, YOU give him a chance but don't beetch when he bankrupts YOU!



My reference was to wholesale systematic discrimination and inequality based solely on RACE. I will say though that wanting to be left alone doesn't put you above the law, nor does that hidden camera stuff exempt one from closer scrutiny. A rancher who looses in a lawful court of law, and grabs a gun would have been shot if he were black or Mexican and we both know that.

That just leaves the guy holding evidence against a prominent democrat if you can clarify. What Racism.. the Fake racism and the Fake White privilege they Democrats insist on pushing since Bozo started pushing Racial division almost 9 years ago? Sorry, if you don't take education serious as a youth.. then whatever disadvantages that come from it are on THAT persons shoulders, nobody else's.. of if the idiot parents encouraged that same self destructive behavior, that's on THEM... and it has ZERO to do with white privilege. Nobody alive today, white or black owes ANYONE white or black anything from what happened before they were born. 17% of the population commit 75% of the crime... if they are committing the crime.. they deserve to get shot.. and don't deserve a special break because of some imagined "discrimination" they claim happened generations before they were born..

Don't want shot? don't commit crimes....ZERO sympathy for criminals with long rap sheets who didn't learn their lesson. Can excuse a minor non-violent crime...can't for violent or repeat offenders. Cop says stop, you stop, you don't get cocky with the cop or you get what you deserve. Attack the cop, and you deserve to be removed from the human gene pool.

There are far MORE "Mexicans" and "blacks" that seem to make it through life and do REALLY well...without whining and blaming OTHER ethnic groups, or committing crimes....or maybe its BECAUSE they take responsibility for their own lives and know what they get out of life is what they put into it. Just like everyone else. Its not a White, Black, brown or Yellow thing....its about two types. Those who are responsible..and those who aren't and blame everyone but the one person responsible, themselves.

I grew up in the South and then lived in the Northeast and Midwest. Racism has been alive and well throughout my life in any of those places.

I grew up in the South and then lived in the Northeast and Midwest. Racism has been alive and well throughout my life in any of those places.

I call bull on that... Nearly 40 years of affirmative action... where unqualified Minorities take the jobs Qualified people should have... free education yet minorities have the LOWEST High school graduation rates... and yet that is somehow everyone else's fault. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know lazy, uneducated and dumb, is NOT a recipe for success anyplace on earth. And I know a LOT of Minorities that will tell you the same thing.

Bet you can't prove any of that propaganda, but you have the rant down PERFECTLY.

I didn't want to hijack the thread with a new subject, sorry 'bout that Clete, but since you chimed in Smoothy.

This is exactly what you have done, you want to discuss racism, get your own thread or follow up on Athos suggestion in the other thread.

It is interesting to note guns cannot be discussed for long before someone throws it in the too hard basket

Point taken Clete, but personally what else is there to say about guns, since no matter what, even in "bastions of gun control", people are going to buy guns. Some more than others. I just wish we had the same common sense regulations that you guys have and that is the cops KNOW who has what. Obviously that's not going to happen no matter how many get killed.

Very SAD all we have are condolences and prayers for the victims and families.

You guys crack me up . When it comes to drugs you say make them legal because it's impossible to control them by outlawing them and people will get them anyway . But with guns you think bans are the big panacea .

You guys crack me up . When it comes to drugs you say make them legal because it's impossible to control them by outlawing them and people will get them anyway . But with guns you think bans are the big panacea .

Tom false dichotomy, if drugs were made legal there would be controls, but you think you can live in a world where there is no control over guns, truly a fool's paradise, right now you have no control over either drugs or guns, and if, observation is correct, no control over the White House either. Trump, with no cabinet, has created a dictatorship

but you think you can live in a world where there is no control over guns, truly a fool's paradise

You think I'm an absolutist ....I am not . But I know that in the most controlled states ,illegal guns are still used in crimes ;while registered guns are not ....and the harder it is to get legal guns ,the more illegal guns exist.

This is a useless debate because the libs will never admit that their goal is the repeal of the 2nd amendment,

That's an exaggeration of the liberal position Tom, and while you think it's not your position to be an absolutist, what would you call your reaction to legal guns being used in mass killings of innocent men, women, AND children?


You think I'm an absolutist ....I am not . But I know that in the most controlled states ,illegal guns are still used in crimes ;while registered guns are not .


Exactly which mass shooting was NOT with a legally purchased and registered gun?

hillarious ;the bumpstock was approved by the Obama ATF so the handicapped would have an easier time firing a gun. Even though they knew it turned semi-auto into defacto automatic weapons ,they did nothing to changed the regulations to ban them as other automatic weapons had been banned since the 1930s and again in 1986 .

Other cases were guns legally purchased by a mom and illegally used by a psycho kid ;and another case where a psycho kid obtained them because the vaunted regulators dropped the ball.

Oh yeah and there was that case in Fort Hood where a jihadist went on a shooting rampage at a base where the military was not permitted to carry their firearms . It was called 'work place violence ' by the emperor .

hillarious ;the bumpstock was approved by the Obama ATF so the handicapped would have an easier time firing a gun. Even though they knew it turned semi-auto into defacto automatic weapons ,they did nothing to changed the regulations to ban them as other automatic weapons had been banned since the 1930s and again in 1986 .



.

The question isn't really the rate of fire, it is the killing power of the weapon that has made these mass shootings so deadly. Why do the handicapped need automatic weapons, some falsehoods there.

Hilarious ;the bumpstock was approved by the Obama ATF so the handicapped would have an easier time firing a gun. Even though they knew it turned semi-auto into defacto automatic weapons ,they did nothing to changed the regulations to ban them as other automatic weapons had been banned since the 1930s and again in 1986 .

What's stopping them NOW?

Other cases were guns legally purchased by a mom and illegally used by a psycho kid ;and another case where a psycho kid obtained them because the vaunted regulators dropped the ball.

Yeah we can't do a thing about psycho's and criminals can we?

Oh yeah and there was that case in Fort Hood where a jihadist went on a shooting rampage at a base where the military was not permitted to carry their firearms . It was called 'work place violence ' by the emperor .

Naw, he was a psycho too, like all the rest floated below the radar, and snuck a legal handgun illegally unto a military base because anybody could have with bases being so open. You can't tell the difference between a jihadist and a criminal, only the politics separates them. He was an officer in the military....an American.

So your solution is the same as Trumps... condolences and prayers... and excuses why NOTHING changes even when a loony shoots up elected law makers.

bump stock will be banned . Even the NRA has spoken in favor of it . It wasn't that long ago that kids were bringing their guns to school and having target practice after school. There were no where's near as many restrictions and there were less gun violence. So you tell me what changed. Guns are harder to get for people who are responsible gun owners and just as easy as ever for criminals to obtain.

bump stock will be banned . Even the NRA has spoken in favor of it . It wasn't that long ago that kids were bringing their guns to school and having target practice after school. There were no where's near as many restrictions and there were less gun violence. So you tell me what changed. Guns are harder to get for people who are responsible gun owners and just as easy as ever for criminals to obtain.

It's not a matter of what has changed but what hasn't changed, sooner or later the public has to realise that mass shootings for the sake of preserving some imagined liberty isn't worth it, absolute liberty is tyranny, in this case the tyranny of the gun and the mindless idiots who think they have a right to kill in the name of some mindless ideology

The Australian model looks better all the time doesn't it? Clete may be surprised at the number of legal guns floating around but the absence of record mass shootings has to be a great trade off. What has changed? Look around you and see all the uncertainty and lack of equal treatment as well as the trauma of wars that have lasted for decades now, and the economic upheaval that has disrupted lives all over the country. Add to that the social impact of changes in attitudes and we have a lot of fear, and resentments that have been stoked up for YEARS for political and economic gain, with the influence of special interest money has us all unnerved and reaching for a gun.

While lefties and righties butt heads all the loonies have come out of the woodwork hollering about one thing or another and made for a very unstable country where anything goes. Throw in a few foreign actors all over the world and we have EVERYBODY crazy and afraid of what's next with no relief in sight. Then there is TRUMP, the lying savior of the right wing loonies. Spreading his disruptive crap like a wild fire. the worst hurricane in history that has united the bible thumpers and racist into a lethal witches brew for normal civilized folks to choke on.

Mother Nature ain't helping for sure, and capitalist want MO"MONEY, YO"MONEY. Everybody is pissed off Tom, that's what's changed. Should I go on?

The Australian model looks better all the time doesn't it? Clete may be surprised at the number of legal guns floating around but the absence of record mass shootings has to be a great trade off. What has changed? Look around you

Just a perspective Tal, I have looked around me, freedom is not abridged, no doubt any person with a legitimate reason for owning a gun can possess one, a recent gun amnesty didn't yield huge numbers but what it did yield was interesting. But what our regulation has yielded is that the gun isn't the weapon of choice and while a knife may kill mass murder is rarer than rocking horse manure. You say that has to be worth something and it is worth a great deal

My perspective is Australia saw a problem and fixed it. You had no NRA to block any logical, common sense solutions either. Boggles my mind how an entity can circumvent the will of the American people. Goes to show the true power of MONEY.

NRA has nothing to do with it... WE have a second amendment RIGHT to be armed.. they did not. What we do have a serious need of is seriously restricting the over abused freedom of speech. After all that is no more sacred than any of the other rights.

That dodge doesn't work since a vast majority of Americans AND NRA members support common sense solutions to the problem of mass murders in this country. The constitution also calls for a well REGULATED militia, so your opposition to that seems patently unconstitutional, and distracting us with that first amendment excuse shows YOU have no common sense solution to offer, which PROVES without a doubt YOU are part of the problem.

The constitution also calls for a well REGULATED militia
And the militia members carry muskets, one bullet every minute.

If the writers of the Constitution had had any idea about what would be happening in 2017....

That dodge doesn't work since a vast majority of Americans AND NRA members support common sense solutions to the problem of mass murders in this country. The constitution also calls for a well REGULATED militia, so your opposition to that seems patently unconstitutional, and distracting us with that first amendment excuse shows YOU have no common sense solution to offer, which PROVES without a doubt YOU are part of the problem.

Hardly.. since the Democrat are establishing Sanctuary Cities to protect criminals and MS-13 gang Members... thats NOT a Republican thing..

Laws are ALREADY on the books.. and besides... Criminals don't NEED guns to kill people... that's been abundantly clear to most of the planet since 9/11. Recent news Truscks, knives, cars, etc... improvised explosives a 10 year old can make...

We can't even keep most of the known mentally ill off the streets since the Democrats worked to turn them loose back in the 70's.

Can blame that on guns.. but you can blame that on people who otherwise should #1. Not be in this country, or #2 Should have been in a mental health facility, or #3 Should have still been in jail for other crimes they have committed.

Can't lay blame on the NRA... those are almost all part and parcel to Democrats policy and agenda for a long time.

And the militia members carry muskets, one bullet every minute.

If the writers of the Constitution had had any idea about what would be happening in 2017....

I think they did have an idea that things would get more complicated with new innovations, and changing attitudes. They also wrote "ALL men are created equal" while slavery was the norm.

Hardly.. since the Democrat are establishing Sanctuary Cities to protect criminals and MS-13 gang Members... that's NOT a Republican thing..

That's your twisted version of the truth. Sanctuary Cities protect the ordinary people who are NOT criminals and gangsters from the right wing loonies and inhuman policies.

Laws are ALREADY on the books.. and besides... Criminals don't NEED guns to kill people... that's been abundantly clear to most of the planet since 9/11. Recent news Truscks, knives, cars, etc... improvised explosives a 10 year old can make...

Should the law include protection against crazy homicidal maniacs? Why are YOU protecting THEM?

We can't even keep most of the known mentally ill off the streets since the Democrats worked to turn them loose back in the 70's.

Republicans control ALL branches of government NOW!! What's the SOLUTION?

Can blame that on guns.. but you can blame that on people who otherwise should #1. Not be in this country, or #2 Should have been in a mental health facility, or #3 Should have still been in jail for other crimes they have committed.

Can't lay blame on the NRA... those are almost all part and parcel to Democrats policy and agenda for a long time.

Republicans control ALL branches of government NOW!! What's the SOLUTION?

Hardly.. since the Democrat are establishing Sanctuary Cities to protect criminals and MS-13 gang Members... that's NOT a Republican thing..

That's your twisted version of the truth. Sanctuary Cities protect the ordinary people who are NOT criminals and gangsters from the right wing loonies and inhuman policies.

Laws are ALREADY on the books.. and besides... Criminals don't NEED guns to kill people... that's been abundantly clear to most of the planet since 9/11. Recent news Truscks, knives, cars, etc... improvised explosives a 10 year old can make...

Should the law include protection against crazy homicidal maniacs? Why are YOU protecting THEM?

We can't even keep most of the known mentally ill off the streets since the Democrats worked to turn them loose back in the 70's.

Republicans control ALL branches of government NOW!! What's the SOLUTION?

Can blame that on guns.. but you can blame that on people who otherwise should #1. Not be in this country, or #2 Should have been in a mental health facility, or #3 Should have still been in jail for other crimes they have committed.

Can't lay blame on the NRA... those are almost all part and parcel to Democrats policy and agenda for a long time.

Republicans control ALL branches of government NOW!! What's the SOLUTION?

All the Needed laws are already on the books.. its the retards in Democratically controlled areas that are choosing to NOT enforce existing laws.

First off you CAN'T commit someone against their will unless it can be PROVEN they pose a threat to themselves and others.. legal precident on that practically REQUIRES they have done something before that can be established. Liberals feel the criminally insane have a greater right to freedom than the law abiding public has to be protected from them... one of those you can't have it both ways situations.

Every Illegal has already broken laws to get here, if they were working, add a few more laws they broke, if they weren't working they were stealing money making even more laws they were breaking... that makes them a criminal. Many if not most MS-13 gang member are illegals.. and even ones that did immigrate broke laws and can have that citizenship revoked, or green cards revoked. But Liberals are protecting them. That's a fact.. and no twisting anything.


Chicago... More people get killed in any given week than happened in Las Vegas... Liberals are happy about that because they don't get upset about it. THey have unconstitutional draconian gun laws there... lot of good that does anyone there... the law abiding citizens effectively aren'y allowed to legally protect themselves and their families from the thugs. Another fact that doesn't require twisting...

So you have NO solution for the homicidal loony with a gun.

So you have NO solution for the homicidal loony with a gun. do you have any for the homicidal looney in a truck, in a car, with a knife... mixing up chemicals?

If there was National Reciprocity laws for Conceal carry under the SAME pretext other states have to recognize Drivers license, School transcripts etc...many if not most can be severely limited....but you will never stop every loon out there. A baseball bat, shovel, 2x4 almost anything can become a weapon.

I'll take my chances with guy wielding a bat or shovel or 2x4. Especially if he's on the 32nd floor of a hotel. Or if I'm in a crowd of 22,000 people.

I'll take my chances with guy wielding a bat or shovel or 2x4. Especially if he's on the 32nd floor of a hotel. Or if I'm in a crowd of 22,000 people. Good luck if you are in a crowd on the ground.. you won't even see him coming with the truck until its too late. Ask the people in Madrid, France or London.

Good luck if you are in a crowd on the ground.. you won't even see him coming with the truck until its too late. Ask the people in Madrid, France or London.
My chances are better with a truck plowing through than bullets spraying.

That dodge doesn't work since a vast majority of Americans AND NRA members support common sense solutions to the problem of mass murders in this country. The constitution also calls for a well REGULATED militia,.

Yes it is very clear that part of the Constitution is forgotten, the Constitution didn't call for an ill trained and ill disciplined rabble rampaging through the land. It seems to me that if guns owners are not formed into a well regulated militia then what they do is outside their Constitutional rights. People love to isolate certain words and forget others but what is said must be taken as a whole.

Now what purpose would a well regulated militia have? External defense, certainly, but also the keeping of order since in the founders view a police force did not exist, therefore this militia should exist to facilitate public order and any person who possesses a weapon for other purposes is outside the Constitution. But I know logic doesn't prevail

We have a right to bear arms in our constitution Clete, but no where is there a right to SELL arms and while sellers are already heavily regulated, there is a wide latitude what they sell, and to whom they sell it to, and no laws apply to private sellers at gun shows of which are numerous, at least none that can be enforced.

We have a right to bear arms in our constitution Clete,


There is a COLLECTIVE right to bear arms - i.e., as part of a militia. There is no INDIVIDUAL right to bear arms - i.e., outside of a militia. That is what the amendment's language reads. The language is very clear.

However, in the late 18th century, hunting was a common and necessary activity. Militia membership was not a requirement to hunt.

The hallowed founders screwed that one up big time. So that 200+ years later, there is still no consensus on what the amendment means.

There is a COLLECTIVE right to bear arms - i.e., as part of a militia. There is no INDIVIDUAL right to bear arms - i.e., outside of a militia. That is what the amendment's language reads. The language is very clear.

However, in the late 18th century, hunting was a common and necessary activity. Militia membership was not a requirement to hunt.

The hallowed founders screwed that one up big time. So that 200+ years later, there is still no consensus on what the amendment means.

Bovine excrement, where exactly does it say that anyplace. So apparently there is no individual freedom of speech or any other individual freedoms either by that same perverted extreme left wing perspective of the Bill of rights.

This IS the second amendment of the Constitution of the US:


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed (https://usconstitution.net/glossary.html#INFRINGE).

https://usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html


The trick is finding that balance between freedom and reasonable regulation, between unreasonable unfettered ownership and unreasonable prior restraint. Gun ownership is indeed a right — but it is also a grand responsibility. With responsibility comes the interests of society to ensure that guns are used safely and are used by those with proper training and licensing. If we can agree on this simple premise, it should not be too difficult to work out the details and find a proper compromise.

You can interpret the Constitution any way you want but states make their own rules within this framework. Maybe someday the state of Virginia will come for Smoothys arsenal and shoot his a$$ for resisting, but until then we can still apply some common sense restrictions for the public safety can't we?

Like a database for all 50 states of gun applicants for background checks. One of the things that came out of Vegas was the shooter was taking meds.

Las Vegas shooter had a diazepam prescription ? here's what that means - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/las-vegas-shooter-had-a-diazepam-prescription-heres-what-that-means-2017-10)

And he was a drinker when he wasn't gambling. Not saying meds and alcohol is the only factor here, but clearly we need to look at mental and emotional health of ANYONE we give the responsibility of gun ownership to. Common sense? It's a standard that law enforcement and the military applies to applicants.

Oh the lefties WANT a 50 state registry so they know who has exactly WHAT so they can come after everyone's guns when they decide to overthrow the government when they can't steal any more elections.

We already have more "common sense" laws than we need... and consider what side is harping the loudest.. the ones who think every Muslim that wants to come here should be allowed in.. without any waiting in line or applications everyone else has to do... yet want to take away the rights of actual Americans on some false promise of "security".

Chicago, and to lesser degrees NYC, and Baltimore (and the state of MD)... all have repressive gun laws... from unconstitutionally Draconian to ones that just make no sense (like MD where almost the only people carrying a gun you will meet is either a cop or criminal)... if you are in a restaurant in any of those and some thug comes in gunning up the place... you aren't going to have any law abiding people with a CC permit that can do something... so you wait 20 minutes for the cops to show up and blame everyone but the people responsible for that situation... like liberals do. All three of those places are among the HIGHEST crime rates in the country. And the left sees no correlation there.

Crime statistics are drastically different from one side of the Potomac river to the other... in VA we have open carry, and it's a SHALL issue state... a criminal never knows who will shoot back.. and our crime rates are significantly lower than across the river in MD where they can be assured... if there is no cop around... nobody can stop them. Exact same thing holds true for the border between DC and VA...(the same river)

I thought Obama got all the guns already.

I thought Obama got all the guns already. Oh its clear he WANTED to... and if he had any clue who had exactly what and where, he would have tried. He also had the common sense to know that would have ended very badly for him and anyone who would have been his flunky running house to house trying.

After all Chicago is such a shining beacon of safe neighborhoods and friendly neighbors because of decades of Democrat control. Hell its a virtual Utiopia, or did I get it backwards using "it's" in place of "is"


Funny thing is..as much as Owebummer hated guns in the hands of the public......he ended up being the greatest gun salesman in recent times.

Obama had NO interest in taking away guns owned by sane, legitimate gun owners.

Oh the lefties WANT a 50 state registry so they know who has exactly WHAT so they can come after everyone's guns when they decide to overthrow the government when they can't steal any more elections.

Right wing paranoia fueled lunacy! Hardly common sense since we probably have as many guns as you do!

We already have more "common sense" laws than we need... and consider what side is harping the loudest.. the ones who think every Muslim that wants to come here should be allowed in.. Without any waiting in line or applications everyone else has to do... yet want to take away the rights of actual Americans on some false promise of "security".

The average wait time under Obama was two years! Again common sense has to be based on facts and not just paranoia!

Chicago, and to lesser degrees NYC, and Baltimore (and the state of MD)... all have repressive gun laws... from unconstitutionally Draconian to ones that just make no sense (like MD where almost the only people carrying a gun you will meet is either a cop or criminal)... if you are in a restaurant in any of those and some thug comes in gunning up the place... you aren't going to have any law abiding people with a CC permit that can do something... so you wait 20 minutes for the cops to show up and blame everyone but the people responsible for that situation... like liberals do. All three of those places are among the HIGHEST crime rates in the country. And the left sees no correlation there.

And of course you have FACTS and not just speculation to go along with your absurd narrow claim. Fact is a lunatic can walk in a church, restaurant, mall, or beauty shop ANYWHERE in America and smoke a bunch of people including the state of Texas where I am and CC is a matter of fact as is open carry, and matters little what the crime rate is

Crime statistics are drastically different from one side of the Potomac river to the other... in VA we have open carry, and it's a SHALL issue state... a criminal never knows who will shoot back.. and our crime rates are significantly lower than across the river in MD where they can be assured... if there is no cop around... nobody can stop them. Same thing holds true for the border between DC and VA... (the same river)

Densely populated areas (URBAN) have higher crimes than less dense areas (RURAL) so what's your point? Nothing that makes common sense I suspect since you broad brush everything into neat little nonsense categories. Let take your example of Chicago for instance that has areas of blight, high unemployment, and no economic development, with very high rates of violence and crimes, and entirely crime free areas where the money flows like a river. This is a direct result of generations, and DECADES (More than a century in the case of Chicago specifically) of public policy design to keep power in the hands of a few brokers and oppress the majority of others.

Look up the history of Chicago and get the FACTS, and then look up any city and get the facts instead of making up nonsense to fit your own LUNACY!

The Second Amendment clearly identifies right as belonging to ‘the people.’ It is sheer nonsense to argue that the intent of the framers was to give the power to state run militias only . They all mistrusted government and thought that the preservation of liberty rested in the people being properly armed. No where else in the constitution does the use of the words 'the people ' mean a state controlled subset . The people are individuals when rights are mentioned .


I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788


Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence George Washington .

The Second Amendment clearly identifies right as belonging to ‘the people.’
Will my rights as a citizen be protected when "the people" are armed as they are now? Will "the people" gather into a cohesive body, guns at the ready?

The right to bear arms has never been an issue with me, but given the advancement in technology, can't we at least DEMAND responsibility, and SAFETY to go along with ACCOUNTABILITY?

That's asking too much?

The right to bear arms has never been an issue with me, but given the advancement in technology, can't we at least DEMAND responsibility, and SAFETY to go along with ACCOUNTABILITY?

That's asking too much?

Apparently it is Tal, you are abridging an absolute right of the people apparently

Sorry Tal and Clete and WG . None of your controls would've prevented Las Vegas . Stephen Paddock passed all the background checks when he purchased weapons. You know and I know that what the left wants in this country is a repeal of the 2nd amendment and enact laws that mimic Australia's restrictions and confiscations .All of the “common sense” laws for which liberals advocate are designed to hinder legal firearms purchases, not criminal gun violence.

Sorry Tal and Clete and WG . None of your controls would've prevented Las Vegas . Stephen Paddock passed all the background checks when he purchased weapons. You know and I know that what the left wants in this country is a repeal of the 2nd amendment and enact laws that mimic Australia's restrictions and confiscations .All of the “common sense” laws for which liberals advocate are designed to hinder legal firearms purchases, not criminal gun violence.

Sometimes I think you want to force a reply. There are no confiscations here, Tom, unless illegal activity forces a search, there have been amnesties where citizens voluntarily hand in unregistered weapons. Our laws were put in place to counter gun violence of the very type that manifested itself in LV, and they have been successful, much to the chagrin of the US gun lobby. What we have demonstrated is a democracy can exist and be refreshed at the ballot box without the citizens resorting to violence or assassinating the leaders

Sorry Tal and Clete and WG . None of your controls would've prevented Las Vegas .
Huh? I didn't suggest a control. I wondered if the gun-carrying rabble will protect me when the government comes along to strip me of my rights. (P.S. They're already planning to strip me of SS and Medicare and my elderly mother of Medicaid.)

WG
knowing that ;why would you accept a social contract where the only way to protect your rights is from the same government that would strip you of what you are entitled to ? The gun toting "rabble " you speak of is the government that can ,will and has imposed it's will on the people by the force of arms many times .

The facts are clear . There are over 300 million guns in the country and record numbers of Americans applying for gun permits .Do you really believe those gun owners are a 'gun-carrying rabble ' ? The only noticeable achievement of all these so called "common sense " measures is the increase in sales of guns. Despite the sensationalization of well publicized mass shootings ;the truth is that there is more than a 20 year decline in gun violence in the country .(even as places with strict gun laws like Chi -town are the wild wild west some weekends ). 2/3 of the gun violence in the country is self inflicted suicide or accident .

WG
knowing that ;why would you accept a social contract where the only way to protect your rights is from the same government that would strip you of what you are entitled to ? The gun toting "rabble " you speak of is the government that can ,will and has imposed it's will on the people by the force of arms many times .
The gun-toting rabble are all the NRA members (those open- and concealed-carry dudes). Will they connect with each other to form a militia and protect me against the government's tanks and cannons?

The gun toting "rabble " you speak of is the government that can ,will and has imposed it's will on the people by the force of arms many times .

Care to expand on that.

Care to expand on that.

Do you think he needs too? Too many examples of cops, etc breaking up peaceful demonstrations


The gun-toting rabble are all the NRA members (those open- and concealed-carry dudes). Will they connect with each other to form a militia and protect me against the government's tanks and cannons?

Gotcha

Local or state COPS policing demonstrations is not the same as the government knocking on doors for the purpose confiscating the legal guns of law abiding citizens like the right wing is afraid of.

you think those are the only instances where the government imposed it's will by force on the people ? Let me ask you something ; why does the IRS have an arsenal that many 3rd world nations would envy. What we really need is back round checks of the IRS employees . The number of non-military federal officers with firearm authority (200,000+) now exceeds the number of U.S. Marines (182,000)....and that does not include TSA , FBI , and Homeland Security . Spending on guns, ammo and military-style equipment at 67 federal agencies;including 53 regulatory, administrative agencies amounted to $1.48 billion between 2006-2014.The IRS stockpile alone includes pump action and semi-automatic shotguns ; and semi-automatic AR-15 rifles (S&W M&P 15) and military style H&K 416 rifles.Health and Human Services (HHS) has it's own arsenal and has their own “National Training Operations Center” .The FDA, Small Business Administration (SBA), Smithsonian Institution, Social Security Administration, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, United States Mint, Department of Education, Bureau of Engraving and Printing, National Institute of Standards and Technology all have been armed .

So everybody and his mama in America has a gun. Are government workers Americans covered under the second amendment? Okay show me where they have imposed their will by gunpoint.

you think those are the only instances where the government imposed it's will by force on the people.


Government, by definition, ALWAYS imposes its will on the people by force or threat of force. It's the nature of the beast.

you think those are the only instances where the government imposed it's will by force on the people ? Let me ask you something ; why does the IRS have an arsenal that many 3rd world nations would envy. What we really need is back round checks of the IRS employees . The number of non-military federal officers with firearm authority (200,000+) now exceeds the number of U.S. Marines (182,000)....and that does not include TSA , FBI , and Homeland Security . Spending on guns, ammo and military-style equipment at 67 federal agencies;including 53 regulatory, administrative agencies amounted to $1.48 billion between 2006-2014.The IRS stockpile alone includes pump action and semi-automatic shotguns ; and semi-automatic AR-15 rifles (S&W M&P 15) and military style H&K 416 rifles.Health and Human Services (HHS) has it's own arsenal and has their own “National Training Operations Center” .The FDA, Small Business Administration (SBA), Smithsonian Institution, Social Security Administration, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, United States Mint, Department of Education, Bureau of Engraving and Printing, National Institute of Standards and Technology all have been armed .


Sounds like a bad case of paranoia, is someone afraid guns will suddenly disappear?

Seems LOGICAL that if all the loonies, criminals, and every other citizen had a gun, then maybe government should have them too, you know for protection against overthrow. LOL, we sell things that go boom all over the WORLD! Even to Aussies at a discount, and can make more on demand!

They will NEVER EVER disappear!

Seems LOGICAL that if all the loonies, criminals, and every other citizen had a gun, then maybe government should have them too, you know for protection against overthrow. LOL, we sell things that go boom all over the WORLD! Even to Aussies at a discount, and can make more on demand!

They will NEVER EVER disappear!

Yes you sell us some weapons, but our military don't use your guns, they prefer a weapon with more killing power

We got those too at a discount for allies.

We got those too at a discount for allies.

Despite the rhetoric we are not signed on to making america great, but you could give us a discount on the flying brick

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Fo1VL5sbSSCkkdinKN2CrgEsEo&pid=15.1&P=0&w=184&h=182

Smoothy while it may be true that repressive regimes may remove guns from the individual not all regimes that control firearms are repressive, this sort of thing is the rubbish thinking that is associated with the firearms lobby in the US and it is pure commercial interest, they have no concern for the loss of innocent life associated with firearms. A well ordered society doesn't need to rely on firearms, and the persistent lie that is the idea that only the individual can protect themselves is ridiculous

LOL, I can understand Smoothy's feeling of protecting himself against The Dufus and his administration. There is no greater threat to freedom than him or his policies. Having a well regulated militia (National Guard and COPS) are not enough sometimes, but a gun driven fueled paranoid fool is a scary proposition, but just as the loony right clings to its guns, the loony left forgets just how dangerous life can be even in the seemingly safest of places.

Not everybody who wants a gun should have them, certainly not criminals and lunatics, and I don't care about what RIGHTS you think you have. I reject totally the premise of armed resistance to OUR government, as sheer LUNACY though, while respecting that some have experiences that makes then afraid to be disarmed. Seems a reasonable first step is accounting for who has what guns, and if you are a criminal, OR LUNATIC, or just irresponsible. Sadly though it's hard to diagnose LUNATICS or irresponsible citizens.

The Australian model looks better all the time.

An interesting read

More Americans Are Carrying Handguns Than Ever Before – Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/10/more-americans-are-carrying-handguns-than-ever-before/)

In full disclosure I live in a state with Conceal and carry laws and they hand them out like candy. Gun shows are EVERYWHERE and cash and carry is good to go. Then you have this crap.

https://www.concealedonline.com/start/coursebing65.php?AFFID=BING_ELITE&C1=Search_All&C2=Broad&C3=concealedandcarrylicense&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=NB%7CConcealed%20-%20License%7CUSA%7CBroad&utm_term=concealed%20and%20carry%20license&utm_content=A1%20-%20License

https://www.concealedonline.com/start/coursebing65.php?AFFID=BING_ELITE&C1=Search_All&C2=Broad&C3=concealedandcarrylicense&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=NB%7CConcealed%20-%20License%7CUSA%7CBroad&utm_term=concealed%20and%20carry%20license&utm_content=A1%20-%20License
Yup, I break into a cold sweat every time I leave the house and go grocery shopping, sure that a murderer is out there somewhere, lurking in the shadows. (And he's probably an NRA member, the "good guy with a gun," like that dude in Las Vegas.)

LOL, I can understand Smoothy's feeling of protecting himself against The Dufus and his administration. There is no greater threat to freedom than him or his policies. Having a well regulated militia (National Guard and COPS) are not enough sometimes, but a gun driven fueled paranoid fool is a scary proposition, but just as the loony right clings to its guns, the loony left forgets just how dangerous life can be even in the seemingly safest of places.

Not everybody who wants a gun should have them, certainly not criminals and lunatics, and I don't care about what RIGHTS you think you have. I reject totally the premise of armed resistance to OUR government, as sheer LUNACY though, while respecting that some have experiences that makes then afraid to be disarmed. Seems a reasonable first step is accounting for who has what guns, and if you are a criminal, OR LUNATIC, or just irresponsible. Sadly though it's hard to diagnose LUNATICS or irresponsible citizens.

The Australian model looks better all the time.

Don't let the NRA hear you say that. In reality a very high percentage of the population are unreliable, not only are there lunatics, but drug users and a great deal of unhappy people, like preppers, who cannot be considered to have a firm grip on reality. I see you realise that a well ordered militia, such as army and police, might actually be the correct reading of the Constitution, so let's get real and deputise all those gun owners then you will have a well regulated militia

Some humans are more flawed than others and half have selfish bad intent and don't care. So what?


let's get real and deputise all those gun owners then you will have a well regulated militia

And corrupt the system with their BS? No way. They can volunteer and see if they QUALIFY. Regardless of the outcome we all are accountable for our own actions. Collectively, or as individuals.

Until Scotty can beam me up, looks like I'm stuck here with the rest of you flawed humans. The problem is the evil humans look exactly like the good ones. Sometimes there is no difference. Scary? Naw! Been this way for a long time. Human ignorance is not new.

Naw look in their eyes

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/10/19/america-packing-research-estimates-million-adult-gun-owners-carry-their-guns-every-day/oij3tPXXflq9iADXYBdQPL/story.html

Why are you posting media promos Tom?

Same as my link Clete, but a different source. You probably need a prescription to read it.

More Americans Are Carrying Handguns Than Ever Before – Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/10/more-americans-are-carrying-handguns-than-ever-before/)

Just the facts Clete . 3 million legal gun carriers . Are they all mass murderers ? Mother Jones is goofy wrong . Gun violence is in the decline .
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/weve-had-a-massive-decline-in-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/?utm_term=.eccdf6322fb6

Just the facts Clete . 3 million legal gun carriers . Are they all mass murderers ? Mother Jones is goofy wrong . Gun violence is in the decline .
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/weve-had-a-massive-decline-in-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/?utm_term=.eccdf6322fb6

So you think the more guns in possession of citizens the less gun violence? But our experience demonstrates the opposite, so we have to look elsewhere for answers. Could it be your rate of detention has something to do with it, less violent criminals on the streets? On perhaps it is a better educated society, but then it could just be statistical error, or dilution due to population growth, perhaps you passed out of the era where there was more mental illness due to PTSD arising from war, you could also corralate it with the war on drugs

This is why you have effective gun laws

Tamim Khaja pleads guilty to planning Sydney 'mass murder' terror attack - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-30/sydney-man-pleads-guilty-for-planning-mass-murder-terror-attack/9099894)

I think this was more about effective law enforcement than anything to do with gun control.

I think this was more about effective law enforcement than anything to do with gun control.

No you miss it, he was impeded in his plan because he couldn't just walk into a store and buy a gun. Was he smart? Probably not, I don't think most of these jihadist types are smart. I don't doubt there were some in muslim community who could have provided him a weapon, but he can't be as open about it here as he could be in your society. Our law enforcement look for signs of radicalisation. When I was his age I owned a gun, long rifle, that wouldn't be permitted today

Your link and the links in the story were unclear. We have established already that a lot of guns can be bought in your country. Your NSA was tipped off about this loony. Would anyone walking into a gun store to buy a gun be turned into the NSA as he was?

Your link and the links in the story were unclear. We have established already that a lot of guns can be bought in your country. Your NSA was tipped off about this loony. Would anyone walking into a gun store to buy a gun be turned into the NSA as he was?


Possibly, the gun store owner might do some profiling of his own, there are a lot less of them here, and no gun shows to speak of. To buy a gun you have to go through police checks and have a good reason and be able to demonstrate you have a safe place to store it

The damn fool should have gotten hooked up with the black market like any self respecting nefarious loony.

The damn fool should have gotten hooked up with the black market like any self respecting nefarious loony.

Yes but our black market isn't as well developed, he probably would have needed to get involved with muslim bikies and they are more interested in drugs than jihad