what if person sin again after being saved?

In Christianity, the answer will depend on what part or group within Christianity they belong to.

Some groups teach that once you are saved, you are forgiven and if you error and sin again, you are still saved.
You may have lessor rewards in heaven but will be saved.

Others teach that depending on how serious the sin ( we all sin every day) do you speed when driving, do you get angry when someone cuts you off when driving. Are you tempted or day dream sexually when you see someone of the other sex slightly dressed.

So for some, you need to repent often and ask God to forgive you.

And for others, there is somewhere between, that unless you do a serious sin, and do it willfully, you are saved.

what if person sin again after being saved?

You question looks like a twofold one to me. You will only be saved if you gain Heaven when you die. That will be your reward for your earthen deeds and it will be eternal. So once you are saved you cannot possibly sin again, for you are already enjoying the view of God.
On the other hand, if by saved you mean to be forgiven in the act of confession, according to the RC Church, then if you sin again you will have to repent of your sin before your own conscience or confess again.
One of the things, however, that seem to become at present less mandatory in the RC Church is the Sacrament of Penance.
Therefore if your new sin is not too big and somber as long as you feel sincerely sorry for it chances are that your salvation will still be in force.
I put it like that, because in actual fact, NO ONE can be sure of his/her salvation till he/she faces the Supreme Judge!
Gromitt82

1 John 2

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
-----
Let's just go with what the BIBLE teaches us. Is this a credit card to do whatever we want? By all means NO... but it shows the love and mercy of our Lord and I thank God everyday for His grace. There is no sin that the blood of Jesus cannot wash away and if we confess our sin to Him, He is faithful to forgive us.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Blaine, being a Christian doesn't mean you now walk perfect everyday. It simply means we now have the grace to do what we weren't able to before salvation. Yes, there is a call to Holy living... and much needs to be said about that, but when we fall short... as we all do... God is there to uphold us by His might hand.

"Blaine, being a Christian doesn't mean you now walk perfect everyday"

very true.
salvation is a gift. No one doesn't NOT sin when they become christians, we're still human.

"Blaine, being a Christian doesn't mean you now walk perfect everyday"

very true.
salvation is a gift. no one doesnt NOT sin when they become christians, we're still human.

Agreed. Everybody sins. We don't "gain" heaven, it's given to us freely in spite of ourselves. If I couldn't do enough to merit gaining salvation in the first place, it doesn't make sense that I could do enough to merit losing it later on. That's not how a gift works. If I try to live in sin after being saved, I'll be about as happy as a pig skydiving, but I'll still be saved. Living for the Lord after being saved is for our benefit, not God's, because we're much happier that way. Seek the Lord, do your best, and ask him to forgive your failings. He will.

Agreed. Everybody sins. We don't "gain" heaven, it's given to us freely in spite of ourselves. If I couldn't do enough to merit gaining salvation in the first place, it doesn't make sense that I could do enough to merit losing it later on. That's not how a gift works. If I try to live in sin after being saved, I'll be about as happy as a pig skydiving, but I'll still be saved. Living for the Lord after being saved is for our benefit, not God's, because we're much happier that way. Seek the Lord, do your best, and ask him to forgive your failings. He will.

I suppose that when you use the word save you actually mean forgive, don't you?
On the other hand, to the best of my knowledge, only Catholic priests, through the Sacrament of Confession are able to forgive our sins. Other than that, we can, of course, repent of our sins, but we shall not know whether we have been forgiven until we take the oneway train that will take us before God...
Gromitt82

I suppose that when you use the word save you actually mean forgive, don't you?
On the other hand, to the best of my knowledge, only Catholic priests, through the Sacrament of Confession are able to forgive our sins. Other than that, we can, of course, repent of our sins, but we shall not know whether or not we have been forgiven until we take the oneway train that will take us before God...
Gromitt82

Excuse me, but no human can forgive my sins. Even the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day acknowledged that only God can forgive sins. That was why they got so upset when Jesus declared a man's sins forgiven. The New Testament repeatedly says that we are forgiven when we repent, so if your church teaches something else, then it's wrong.

Excuse me, but no human can forgive my sins. Even the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day acknowledged that only God can forgive sins. That was why they got so upset when Jesus declared a man's sins forgiven. The New Testament repeatedly says that we are forgiven when we repent, so if your church teaches something else, then it's wrong.







Excuse me, my dear Dwashbur, but I think that your knowledge of the New Testament leaves somewhat to be desired.

In John 20:23, according to the New Int.l Version, you can read: If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

In Mt 16:19, after the same version, you can read:
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

In Mt 18:18, Jesus adds: "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven”

In Revelation 1:18, John says: “I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades”.

In Revelation 3:7, John continues: “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open”

In Mk 11:26, the Evangelist writes: “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."

I have been quoting the Bible of the New In.l Version to simplify but in all the other versions I have, including the KJV, there can be found the same text with little variations.

The point, however, is that, obviously, all the above reflect the way the Evangelist translate what Jesus said, which in fact, boils down to the institution of the Sacrament of Penance or Confession by Jesus, himself.

It is true that this institution has been debated ever since the Council of Trent, but it is also no less true that, in 1907, Pius X, clearly declared the relevance of the Gospel of John 20:22-23 (above mentioned), in his Encyclical Lamentabili Sane Exitu, thus, overriding all previous statements.

Notwithstanding the above, an interesting point to ponder is that already in the O.T. Isaiah 22:22, already predicts: “I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” Which tantamounts to the same.

As you can, therefore, see some Humans are “officially” authorized by the “Big Boss”, himself, (with all due respect) to forgive man’s sins. A different thing altogether is that you DO NOT like to confess your sins to some priest you do not even know.

In fact, I don’t either.

And I must add that the RCC lately has become very lenient about the need to confess before taking the Communion, as long as one feels SINCERELY SORRY AND REPENTS FOR HIS/HER SINS.

Still, the Sacrament is ALWAYS in force!!

On the other hand, using your own argument, I must conclude that when you were talking of being saved you were speaking only of repentance. And then you are also wrong, because NOBODY can guarantee that this type of personal repentance implies GOD’s forgiveness.

Best regards
Gromitt82

Ummm...

Romans 6:23 "... the FREE gift of god is eternal life through Jesus christ our lord"

Romans 10:9: "If you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ephesians 2:8/9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

ummm....

Romans 6:23 "... the FREE gift of god is eternal life through Jesus christ our lord"

Romans 10:9: "If you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ephesians 2:8/9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

And..?
None of these quotes reject the institution of the Sacrament of Penance and certainly, as they refer to several letters Paul of Tarsus wrote to the Ephesians and to the Romans, they only emphasize what Saint Paul -and most Christians- believe.
As for the quote of 1 John 1:9, he actually mentions "if we confess our sins". He cannot refer to God, for there is no need to confess our sins to God, who is perfectly aware of whatever we do or of how we behave.
He is therefore referring to someone down here, i.e. a priest!
Gromitt82

No no no, God KNOWS we've sinned but he wants us to ADMIT it and come in humility.

In 1 john 1:9 it does not refer to a Priest. From 1:5 to 1:10 it is all refferenced to God.

In john 20:23 doesn't mean "man can forgive sins" it means you can go to someone and say to them: "if you receive jesus you are forgiven"


I think your totally missing the point in romans 10:9 too. It doesn't say "if you go to a priest" it says "if you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart, you will be saved"

As for the quote of 1 John 1:9, he actually mentions "if we confess our sins". He cannot refer to God, for there is no need to confess our sins to God, who is perfectly aware of whatever we do or of how we behave.
He is therefore referring to someone down here, i.e. a priest!
Gromitt82

I hope this is a joke. If you're serious, then you seem to know very little about the Bible. David confessed his sins to God numerous times in the Psalms. Plenty of others confessed their sins to God throughout the Bible. Of course God knows what we've done; confession is for our benefit, not His. We confess to god to come clean. It's for clearing the conscience. But our willingness to come to God and say "I was wrong" is the basis of His forgiveness. Why? Because we won't accept forgiveness until we know we need it. He offers, but until we admit it's needed, we won't take it. It's perfectly simple: go to God in humility and say "I sinned." He says "I forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness." No need for any earthly person.

If you want to cram a priest into this verse, you're going to need a bigger shoehorn, because there was no such thing when John wrote that sentence. According to 1 Peter 2:9, we're all priests, in fact we're a royal priesthood. The kind of priest that the RCC has came along later, and is contrary to what the Bible actually says.

I'll try to address your other verses later on; at the moment I have to get ready to go to a service at Joe's Church and Vacuum Cleaner Repair.

a... confess doesn't mean awareness it's admission... u admit 2 God that you have sinned and you humble yourself to Him for forgiveness.. and of course Riot is right, it refers to God alone, kindly read the whole chapter for you to understand

Excuse me, but no human can forgive my sins. Even the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day acknowledged that only God can forgive sins. That was why they got so upset when Jesus declared a man's sins forgiven. The New Testament repeatedly says that we are forgiven when we repent, so if your church teaches something else, then it's wrong.

Ooooooh, we disagree my buddy ol pal. The gospel of grace says we are forgiven/saved after we BELIEVE. We are either covered under the blood or we aren't. It doesn't need to be applied by repenting over and over every time we mess up. Now, do I really think we disagree? NOPE but I thought I'd get something started... for grins. :D but who knows you can be a bit screwy sometimes... maybe you will fight me on it. Ha.

ooooooh, we disagree my buddy ol pal. The gospel of grace says we are forgiven/saved after we BELIEVE. We are either covered under the blood or we aren't. It doesn't need to be applied by repenting over and over everytime we mess up. Now, do I really think we disagree? NOPE but i thought I'd get something started...for grins. :D but who knows you can be a bit screwy sometimes...maybe you will fight me on it. ha.

If you want to fight with Dwashbur it is up to you, though I feel sorry for you. At any rate, I will not enter any debate with you re. what you say... but also just for grins :D you just wait, coronel Higgings, you just wait... and you will see..
Gromitt82

It doesn't need to be applied by repenting over and over everytime we mess up.
We daily sin and we daily repent and ask for forgiveness.

Of course, if you don't sin any longer, there's no problem.

We daily sin and we daily repent and ask for forgiveness.

Of course, if you don't sin any longer, there's no problem.

Of course, if she does not sin, no problem whatsoever... But does not she?
Gromitt82:D

Of course, if she does not sin, no problem whatsoever... But does not she?
I'm looking forward to her response.

I'm looking forward to her response.

Good luck!
Gromitt82:confused:

She's a "once saved, always saved" believer, so I guess I am not surprised about the forgiveness belief.

Martin Luther:

What does such baptizing with water signify?

It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.

ooooooh, we disagree my buddy ol pal. The gospel of grace says we are forgiven/saved after we BELIEVE. We are either covered under the blood or we aren't. It doesn't need to be applied by repenting over and over everytime we mess up. Now, do I really think we disagree? NOPE but i thought I'd get something started...for grins. :D but who knows you can be a bit screwy sometimes...maybe you will fight me on it. ha.

Actually, we agree. The problem is that I was vague. I referred to repentance in the Acts 2:38 sense. I agree with the others that daily confession and forgiveness is a must, a la 1 John 1:9, but thanks for pointing out my little slip of the keyboard :D

We daily sin and we daily repent and ask for forgiveness.

Of course, if you don't sin any longer, there's no problem.

WG,

I am a sinner. I sin and probably daily. Sometimes I don't even KNOW I have sinned. How can I confess what I do not recognize as sin or even FORGET to confess. There is no way everyone confesses everything as hard as they might try. It is just another work that the finished work of Christ already paid in full. I confess and talk to the Lord concerning my sins for my relationship with him. But like I said, sometimes I don't even remember. He has me covered. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin. I choose to be Christ conscience rather than sin conscience.

WG,

I am a sinner. I sin and probably daily. Sometimes I don't even KNOW i have sinned. How can I confess what I do not recognize as sin or even FORGET to confess.
It's not the point of confession to remember every single sin. With your reasoning, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

WG,
No I'm not! Look if confession is really required than it is REALLY required. You can't have it both ways. That's my take. We confess for our relationship with Him not at all to maintain our salvation. No way... no how. :)

WG,
No I'm not! Look if confession is really required than it is REALLY required. You can't have it both ways. thats my take. We confess for our relationship with Him not at all to maintain our salvation. no way....no how. :)
Read the stories of all those Bible people who confessed their sin on a regular, even daily, basis. I'm not having anything both ways.

I never said a word about using daily confession to maintain our salvation.

Read the stories of all those Bible people who confessed their sin on a regular, even daily, basis. I'm not having anything both ways.

I never said a word about using daily confession to maintain our salvation.

For both ClassyT and WG

I do not see the point in debating over the subject of confession. I guess it is a matter of personal convictions. Even in the RCC, right now, lots of people take the Communion at the Mass without having previously received the official forgiveness of their sins (which only 40 years ago was mandatory) and it is left to each one to repent of his/her sins WITHOUT CONFESSING. By the same token, many are confessing every week while at the Mass.

Only one thing is certain. Confession or NO confession, we shall ALL, one day, face the Great Confessor who will determine the degree of penance we must undergo.

Gromitt82:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Only one thing is certain. Confession or NO confession, we shall ALL, one day, face the Great Confessor who will determine the degree of penance we must undergo.
Jesus made the complete sacrifice, so when this life ends, there will no longer be a need to repent.

Jesus made the complete sacrifice, so when this life ends, there will no longer be a need to repent.

If you think so hAKUNA MATATA AND GOOD LUCK TO YOU!
Gromitt82:o:o

She's a "once saved, always saved" believer, so I guess I am not surprised about the forgiveness belief.[/I]

True, I believe if you are truly saved you can't lose it. How could you? I couldn'[t renounce Jesus today and be done with him because I'm sealed with the Holy Spirit for he has promised to NEVER leave me or forsake me ;anymore than a unbeliever who doesn't believe in Satan can renounce satan and be done with him. Just because a person doesn't believe in Satan doesn't make him NOT under his control. I can't sin my way out either because where sin abounds grace much MORE abounds.

I couldn'[t renounce Jesus today and be done with him
But some have renounced Him. Vehemently so. And never changed their minds.

WG,

And IF they were REALLY saved (not just head knowledge) they are STILL in Christ. I imagine most that give him up never had him in the first place. Remember the parable of the sower...

WG,

and IF they were REALLY saved (not just head knowledge) they are STILL in Christ. I imagine most that give him up never had him in the first place. Remember the parable of the sower...
It was more than head knowledge, but bad things happened to them or to loved ones, and they cursed God, vehemently rejected Him. Others acquired higher education and rejected their Christian beliefs in favor of common sense and advanced understanding of how the world works.

It was more than head knowledge, but bad things happened to them or to loved ones, and they cursed God, vehemently rejected Him. Others acquired higher education and rejected their Christian beliefs in favor of common sense and advanced understanding of how the world works.

I've been through this with one of my daughters. She once told me she didn't believe in God any more. I simply replied, that's okay, God still believes in you. It took several years but she's slowly making her way back. With some people that happens, with others it doesn't. I don't even pretend to understand it all.

It was more than head knowledge, but bad things happened to them or to loved ones, and they cursed God, vehemently rejected Him. Others acquired higher education and rejected their Christian beliefs in favor of common sense and advanced understanding of how the world works.

How do you know it was more than head knowledge? How can anyone be sure?

I completely reject the notion that someone was really saved but because they got a higher education and advanced understanding of how the world works they gave up Christ. They never had HIM. They had a "religion". How are you going to read the Bible and have any wisdom whatsoever of it and give it up? How are you going to have a REAL relationship with the Lord and turn to "advanced understanding". I don't believe Judas was ever REAL either by the way... there are plenty of people who say they are saved but they just aren't. The first new thing out there they are on it. I know someone like that.

How do you know it was more than head knowledge? How can anyone be sure?

I completely reject the notion that someone was really saved but because they got a higher education and advanced understanding of how the world works they gave up Christ. They never had HIM. They had a "religion". How are you going to read the Bible and have any wisdom whatsoever of it and give it up? How are you going to have a REAL relationship with the Lord and turn to "advanced understanding". I don't believe Judas was ever REAL either btw...there are plenty of people who say they are saved but they just aren't. The first new thing out there they are on it. I know someone like that.


Just a short reminder of the passage of Matthew's Gospel.

."..while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..." (Matthew 8:12)

Many of these sons of the kingdom are convinced they deserve the Salvation. What a big dissapointmet they may have... and n othing left for them but "the weeping and gnashing of teeth..."
Gromitt82

Grom,

Thanks for the reminder but I haven't forgotten the passage. I do not believe the Lord Jesus is referring to blood bought believers. It is a very sobering verse though.

I've been through this with one of my daughters. She once told me she didn't believe in God any more. I simply replied, that's okay, God still believes in you. It took several years but she's slowly making her way back. With some people that happens, with others it doesn't. I don't even pretend to understand it all.

Dave,

Here it the thing. I personally never stopped believing in God. BUT... I have lived like He didn't matter. So which is worse? Did I lose my salvation? Did she? Because your daughter has questions or is skeptical.. does that mean she isn't saved? I don't think so.. I saw my niece go through the same thing... she is right where she needs to be. She always was... the Lord showed himself to be true. He never left her even in all her doubt. He is called the ROCK. We are called sheep. I think that says it all.

We are called sheep. I think that says it all.
Sheep wander away from the flock and are eaten by wolves or coyotes.

WG,

That is why Jesus is called the good shepherd. I'm not too worried about wolves or coyotes because I'm under HIS care. :)

WG,

That is why Jesus is called the good shepherd. I'm not too worried about wolves or coyotes because i'm under HIS care. :)
And the sheep that wander away are not?

WG.

Last time I checked my Bible... the good shepherd left his 99 sheep to go find the stupid one that wandered off. When you are in his fold... you are in his fold. He will NEVER leave... no not EVER leave , nor forsake the sheep.

Dave,

here it the thing. I personally never stopped believing in God. BUT.... I have lived like He didn't matter. So which is worse? Did I lose my salvation? Did she? Because your daughter has questions or is skeptical..does that mean she isn't saved? I don't think so..i saw my neice go thru the same thing...she is right where she needs to be. She always was...the Lord showed himself to be true. He never left her even in all her doubt. He is called the ROCK. We are called sheep. I think that says it all.

I'm inclined to agree; I believe in eternal security myself. At the same time, I really don't know what to think about those who truly seem to fall away. I've come within inches of it myself, and for many of the reasons WG mentioned earlier in this thread. I reached a point where I seriously wondered whether the God I knew was Jehovah, or Zeus; loving shepherd watching over his sheep, or raving lunatic whimsically tossing lightning bolts at random people just for the fun of it. I came through that crisis, but it sure wasn't easy. I can understand why some people just give up, though I'm glad I didn't.

Hebrews 12:5-10 (King James Version)


5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth , and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth . 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence : shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live ? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure ; but he for our profit , that we might be partakers of his holiness.


Why do we need to be chastened? Well,we still engage in sinful acts of the flesh. God's word is very clear here.

Galatians 6:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


This does not mean we are damned to hell all over again. Jesus died for all sin,past present and future. His promise is that we will not come into condemnation.

John 5:24
King James Version (KJV)
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

this does not mean we are damned to hell all over again. Jesus died for all sin,past present and future. His promise is that we will not come into condemnation.

Right, its about jesus' crusifiction

And Jesus the good Shepherd left the 99 to find the one. But it appears the one wanted to be found and was willing to go back.

Many of the sheep today, run away, hide and refuse to go back

In my faith, Roman Catholic, you may go to confession and confess your sins to a priest. This is also called reconcilliation as you are reconciling with your faith and God. Even priests confess their sins. We are imperfect, we all sin.

The idea is not to continue to repeat the same sins - there is an expectation of true understanding and admission of the sin, acceptance we have done and the expectation we will try not to repeat the sin moving forward. It's not like you can plan to sin with the follow up plan of "I'll confess it later" - that is not the intention. What does your church teach about sin and forgiveness?

And Jesus the good Shepherd left the 99 to find the one. But it appears the one wanted to be found and was willing to go back.

Many of the sheep today, run away, hide and refuse to go back

I don't often disagree with Fr Chuck, but in this case I have to ask: where do you get the idea that the sheep in the story wanted to be found? And as far as being "willing" to go back, there's nothing like that in the story either. From what we know of middle eastern shepherding of the time, the sheep wouldn't have had much to say about it, because if necessary the shepherd would sling the animal across his shoulders and carry it back.

So I'm afraid I can't buy your scenario.

Aren't sheep stupid?

I remember teaching third graders during two weeks of Vacation Bible School one summer. Our theme was "Jesus, the Good Shepherd." We colored pictures of sheep and shepherds, created flocks and shepherds with modeling clay, made banners with sheep and a shepherd on them, made up stories about sheep and shepherds. On the fourth day, the children were becoming restless despite the thrilling sheep-shepherd activity we had planned for them. One little boy piped up, "Can we get past this sheep and shepherds thing and onto something else?"

Aren't sheep stupid?

Ridiculously so. That's why the idea that the one in the story wanted to be found doesn't track; they don't have sense enough to realize they're lost. One will wander over to a stream, then lie down in the water and drown for no reason. There's a reason why they need a strict and attentive shepherd, because only God knows how the species survived before they were domesticated.

Ridiculously so. That's why the idea that the one in the story wanted to be found doesn't track
Like us -- God comes to us where we are and drags us kicking and screaming to His bosom.

Like the bumper sticker: "I found God." No, you didn't find Him; He found YOU!

Like us -- God comes to us where we are and drags us kicking and screaming to His bosom.

Like the bumper sticker: "I found God." No, you didn't find Him; He found YOU!

Exactly!

And to illustrate the point, my oldest daughter has a bumper sticker on her car that says "I found Jesus! He was behind the couch the whole time."