Okay this was brought up in another post by Wildcat. I didn’t want to take away from the original poster but this has been on my mind all day and I just want to get some other feedback on it. The OP was a mistress and as WC points out we’ve been seeing a lot of that here lately. Here’s what WC said..


How do so many women get mixed up wit hmarried men????

Not many guys get mixed up with married women - AND if they do they know it's just for sex.

I HAVEN'T READ ONE POST here about a guy who is mixed up mentally, confused because he is dating a MARRIED women.

EXACTLY! Wildcat is dead on correct. But my question is why? It almost seems like it should be the other way around.

I don’t think it’s any secret that women are better at reading, using, and applying emotions then men are. Women are emotional and use that to their advantage over men. This board is field with men who get caught up being played by women and there emotional games. I know I myself have been caught more than once. I am also a highly sensitive male.

Yet I would never get involved with a married woman. Even for me and some of the situations I’ve been in where I was thinking emotionally and not rationally I realize there is a limit. Marriage is a limit.

So I guess my question is how can such a large number of women who should be more emotionally aware of a married man’s intentions because of their higher acuteness to emotional games and situations get caught up in this problem?

Then on the flip side, why do men, quite honestly like myself very emotional, and some of the other posters here who are just not as emotional as me but still men. In other words they have no advantage over reading a woman emotionally like a woman can read a man. Why are men not caught up in this situation where the women is cheating and he is blinded so much he can’t see what’s going on. Because if you look at our male posters, many of them are blinded by a woman’s emotional games and even know she’s having relations with other guys but they act like the mistresses do. The only difference is their isn’t a marriage involved.

God I hope this makes some kind of sense. In my brain it makes perfect sense, or at least my question does but I’m not sure I’m translating it here well.

In short my question is why isn’t this the other way around, why do emotionally “scarce” men not fall for this and emotionally “intelligent” women do on such a great number?

Not sure I understand what you are getting at. But after my divorce in 1991, I went out with a married man for five years, he was separated from his wife. Then one day out of the blue he turned around and said they were getting back together! I didn't feel much of anything except a fool. I was so mad at him and at myself that I skipped the emotional woe-me stuff. I just accepted it, he was hers. I never got involved with another married man!

If you make your question clearer I might have a better answer. Lol

I think the reasons are far more subtle. I believe the men are far more connected to how wrong it is, partly because they know THEY are wrong. And like it or not, I think men are much better geared at avoiding being responsible for things that are wrong in a relationship. LOL They would not open themselves to the criticism as the women almost blindly do. Women are used to being criticised, we do it to each other as a normal part of daily discourse. Also, it may very well be that married women simply don't solicit affairs in the same fashion as married men do, as predominantly an ego boost and source for sex while holding out the lure of a real relationship to their lover. And to compound it, I don't think men and women view marriage the same as a general rule. The single man is not geared to plead for the married woman to leave her rotten spouse and marry him. Just typing it out here sounds strange, does it not? The statistics support those theories more than anything when you really look at it. I know when I was in a troubled marriage, the last thing I wanted was another complication and it was an open marriage too.

Good question Chuff! I look forward to what others may add too. Thanks.

I think it may be simpler that all that: women are looking for that knight in shining armour and men are looking for some sexual variety.

Actually... I think it's because guys aren't as catty and backstabbing as women are. If a girl belongs to another guy, he's just not going to bother, since there are other fish in the sea.

With women... if she's not our friend, sister, mother, daughter, or grandmother--we don't give a damn about her. She's *competition*! And obviously, (see the sarcasm dripping here?) since she couldn't hold her man, she doesn't deserve him.

Seriously... guys see it as poaching and women see it as if he's fair game if the other woman can't hold his attention, even if the other woman is his wife.

Women get caught in their feelings - they can't help it. Attraction isn't a choice.

People Want What They Can't Have - especially women. Many women LOVE the unavaiable man. Love it!!

Challenge.

Mysterious.

Sexy, forbidden love.

Sneaking around is not boring.

She wants to believe his lies... romance novel stuff.

He gives of the air of very confident, because HE knows it's just a game - he's married so if the gal doesn't fall for it - who cares - no importance into it.

IT'S ALSO VERY, VERY, VERY, UNHEALTHY FOR A WOMAN TO FALL FOR THIS!!

Hey I want sexy forbidden love too, and I'm a guy!
:)

Actually...I think it's because guys aren't as catty and backstabbing as women are. If a girl belongs to another guy, he's just not going to bother, since there are other fish in the sea.

With women...if she's not our friend, sister, mother, daughter, or grandmother--we don't give a damn about her. She's *competition*! And obviously, (see the sarcasm dripping here?) since she couldn't hold her man, she doesn't deserve him.

Seriously...guys see it as poaching and women see it as if he's fair game if the other woman can't hold his attention, even if the other woman is his wife.
You may be on to something here, Synnen. It also may be that men inherently fear the retaliation of another man more than women do with women?

One thing to bear in mind with this topic is the stats say that an almost equal percentage of each gender cheats on their marriage partner...

Actually...I think it's because guys aren't as catty and backstabbing as women are. If a girl belongs to another guy, he's just not going to bother, since there are other fish in the sea.

With women...if she's not our friend, sister, mother, daughter, or grandmother--we don't give a damn about her. She's *competition*! And obviously, (see the sarcasm dripping here?) since she couldn't hold her man, she doesn't deserve him.

Seriously...guys see it as poaching and women see it as if he's fair game if the other woman can't hold his attention, even if the other woman is his wife.


Synn, grrrrr had to spread it. But yes, all of which you are saying... Sad, but true.

Seriously, I put it all into perspective when someone said to me….. “If he can cheat on his wife, the mother of his children, what chance do you have?” For me that hit the nail on the head. Women will fall for it and men never say No. It takes something shocking and real to make us 'see' what we are doing to ourselves.

The first thing I notice when meeting a woman is her ring finger. What is or isn't there colors the entire relationship, and a large part of the difference in how the relationship progresses (whether it's something common like being coworkers or something more complicated like a friendship) is the perception of emotional availability. Accurate or not, the first impression defines in my mind how much emotion can be appropriately invested in the relationship, and no matter what, that initial amount is always there (although that is more of a guideline than a rule) somewhere in my mind. And for the most part, this limit in me is based on some perceived limit in the woman, which, again, may or may not even be accurate.

So what happens with the emotional games? Well, getting involved with a single woman puts no limits on the emotion allowed to be invested... there's nothing sitting in the back of my mind telling me that I'm too deeply involved. On the other hand, with the married woman, there's always that nagging feeling that maybe this is going too far, and I should be careful. In effect, I've created a limit on how far I could go with her, and that keeps me from getting sucked in.

As for the gender differences, I believe that women are more likely to develop an emotional attachment quickly than men are, and that they tend to have a more idealistic view of emotional attachments. Women are more likely to get caught up in something immediately, thinking that emotion is a pure thing that can't be wrong... men are more cynical and guarded, so we don't jump in as quickly. When we do, however, we're just as thoroughly invested as women are, and we have less experience dealing with the backlash from misplaced emotion because we get to that point in fewer relationships.

You know... I was discussing this with a friend, and I think I've come to a better conclusion.

Women end up with married men more often than men end up with married women simply because men are more likely to take off their wedding ring.

Women can't make that initial judgement that Nosnosna was talking about, because so many men don't wear rings.

Maybe so. But even when a woman isn't wearing a ring, the guy is much less likely to invest himself emotionally right off than a woman in the same situation... it's just not the way most of us are. Adultery happens both ways roughly equally... the difference in ring-based tomfoolery tells me that men are more likely to be fine with being the (hmm, what's the masculine form of mistress in this context? It's not master... ) than women.

Besides, that test was marking the difference between a guy with a single woman and a guy with a married woman, not between a guy with an adulterous woman and a woman with an adulterous man. The latter is a totally different issue.

Artist: Kitty Wells Lyrics

Song: It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels Lyrics

As I sit here tonight the jukebox playin'
The tune about the wild side of life
As I listen to the words you are sayin'
It brings memories when I was a trusting wife

It wasn't God who made Honky Tonk angels
As you said in the words of your song
Too many times married men think they're still single
That has caused many a good girl to go wrong

It's a shame that all the blame is on us women
It's not true that only you men feel the same
From the start most every heart that's ever broken
Was because there always was a man to blame

It wasn't God who made Honky Tonk angels
As you said in the words of your song
Too many times married men think they're still single
That has caused many a good girl to go wrong

Not sure I understand what you are getting at. But after my divorce in 1991, I went out with a married man for five years, he was separated from his wife. Then one day out of the blue he turned around and said they were getting back together! I didn't feel much of anything except a fool. I was so mad at him and at myself that I skipped the emotional woe-me stuff. I just accepted it, he was hers. I never got involved with another married man!

If you make your question clearer I might have a better answer. lol

I guess what I'm saying is when it comes to emotions women are better at using them and understanding them then men are. Time and again we see men here on this site and even in life around us that get fixated on a girl and can't let it go. She can dump him and go out with another person and he'd still take her back in a heartbeat. She'd repeat the pattern and keep him always hanging on. Yet most of the time the woman is single.

However if that situation is reversed and the guy keeps the woman hanging on, many times the guy is married. In other words a woman won't necessarily let marriage stop her from getting involved or really what I mean is EMOTIONALLY wrapped up into him.

And my point is that despite what popular culture and many women might say about men, we do have feelings and we do get emotional and in reality we have a difficult time letting go or getting out of relationships. But those are primarily with single women. Married women don't give us the same emotional hangups that single women do. However, single women do get caught up by the married man. And since women are "emotionally smarter" then men, to me it would seem that they should not fall for a married mans lies and emotional games like guys would and indeed do with single women. Just not married women.

"Time and again we see men here on this site and even in life around us that get fixated on a girl and can't let it go. She can dump him and go out with another person and he'd still take her back in a heartbeat."

I think women do that too though. We all invest too much too soon and then wonder what the hell went wrong - or worse we wonder what we did wrong.

Welcome back. It’s good to have you back here.


I think the reasons are far more subtle. I believe the men are far more connected to how wrong it is, partly because they know THEY are wrong. And like it or not, I think men are much better geared at avoiding being responsible for things that are wrong in a relationship. LOL They would not open themselves to the criticism as the women almost blindly do.

I think your on to something there. I know this sounds funny as an adult but as a teenager, guys learn “guy code” which amongst other things teaches us that we never go after another man’s woman. “bros before ho’s” is something I still hear and have heard for probably 15 years. It’s ingrained into my head.

Of course not all guys follow guy code but I think a lot more do than don’t and when I’ve had girlfriends who were being hit on by guys in the past, and she would introduce me, men are very apologetic and even offer to buy you a round of drinks to make up for it. But if the situation is reversed that girl hits on the guy and he points out his girlfriend, some women make faces and cop an attitude immediately. That’s just at the meeting stage, not even in a relationship stage of knowing someone.

So I think your right when you say men are connected to how wrong it is, because we learn it from each other at a developing stage in life.


Women are used to being criticised, we do it to each other as a normal part of daily discourse. Also, it may very well be that married women simply don't solicit affairs in the same fashion as married men do, as predominantly an ego boost and source for sex while holding out the lure of a real relationship to their lover. And to compound it, I don't think men and women view marriage the same as a general rule. The single man is not geared to plead for the married woman to leave her rotten spouse and marry him. Just typing it out here sounds strange, does it not?

It does sound strange. But I think the single man sees her as a good time but without the headaches that she has at home. Where the single woman seeking a relationship with a married man is perhaps not seeking the headache but the drama that will come with breaking up a marriage.


The statistics support those theories more than anything when you really look at it. I know when I was in a troubled marriage, the last thing I wanted was another complication and it was an open marriage too.

Good question Chuff! I look forward to what others may add too. Thanks.

Thank you. I was thinking about it all day. After I saw it posted I thought a lot about it, because it just seemed strange to me that more emotional guys or guys in general don’t get caught up in this. Especially since we fall for emotional situations more than women do because they can judge emotions better.


Actually...I think it's because guys aren't as catty and backstabbing as women are. If a girl belongs to another guy, he's just not going to bother, since there are other fish in the sea.

I like this answer. I think this very true. Guys follow "guy code" and women follow... actually women don't any code. Guys are taught through their peers from an early age about "bros before ho's" and women are not taught through other women to stick together. In fact as you point out women are catty and backstabbing and actually enjoy it. It feeds a need for them.


With women...if she's not our friend, sister, mother, daughter, or grandmother--we don't give a damn about her. She's *competition*! And obviously, (see the sarcasm dripping here?) since she couldn't hold her man, she doesn't deserve him.

Sometimes she'll be catty and backstabbing if she is your friend or sister. I've never seen it with the mother or grandmother though. Thank God. But I've seen women turn on friends and sisters or put them down behind there backs. Guys don't do that. Even if I don't like another guy I just don't bring him up. I don't put hiim down, I just don't talk about him. But women will talk negatively about other women given the proper platform to do so.


Seriously...guys see it as poaching and women see it as if he's fair game if the other woman can't hold his attention, even if the other woman is his wife.

Wow. I've never looked at it like that but that's exactly what it is.


I think it may be simpler that all that: women are looking for that knight in shining armour and men are looking for some sexual variety.

But that same theory doesn't hold true of single men that don't want to and stuggle to let go of a woman who is seeing other guys. Many times a guy will be strung along for years by a woman who toys with his emotions.


You may be on to something here, Synnen. It also may be that men inherently fear the retaliation of another man more than women do with women?

It's funny I think some woman actually would like the retaliation of another woman. Brings her drama level up and gives her something to talk about.


One thing to bear in mind with this topic is the stats say that an almost equal percentage of each gender cheats on their marriage partner....

I should have included this in my original post.

Equal percentage of gender cheat but un unequal percentage of gender outside the marriage believes the lies coming from the married party.

And again, given the woman's abiltiy to read and manipulate emotions, and the man's abiltiy to fall for it you'd think the number would be flip flopped.


Seriously, I put it all into perspective when someone said to me….. “If he can cheat on his wife, the mother of his children, what chance do you have?” For me that hit the nail on the head. Women will fall for it and men never say No. It takes something shocking and real to make us ‘see’ what we are doing to ourselves.

But that happens to men too.

Just the man is involved with a single woman. A man will put up with a non married woman sleeping with other guys and stringing along, some times for years. But a man would never put up with that same situation with a married woman.

Yet women will put up with that from a married man. And women are emotionally more aware then men are, so they should be, in theory, the ones who don't fall for the emotional games of a married man.

Okay my cherubs, her's my thoughts on the topic of the day.
I agree with syn on the point that men are more likely to remove their wedding bands. (if any single girl is reading this my advice is to always look for a suntan where a wedding band ould be.) by the time they find out their lovebug is m arried, they are emotionally involved already. They find themselves in conflict with their heart and their head which is telling them to dump the knave.
There are women who go into relationships with married men. To them its physical attachment and sex. They thrive for the thrill of it. Then their conflict begins when they realize they love the guy. He's married, she wants to be with him and everyone knows he will not leave his wife.
Some see an affair with a married man/ woman as safe because they can count on them being discrete. And usually far away where there's very little chance they'll run into their extra curicular activity not get caught.
Women as a rule are more emotional where men can( I didn't say all men or "do") become emotionall detached. They stray because they aren't happy at home or want more than the wife can give. I honestly wonder why these men that stray feel they are the only ones not being satisfied.
That's what I think. Thank you for reading it.

It's all swings and roundabouts. Some people, men and women, deliberately choose married people for whatever reason. Some get tricked, discovering later that the person is married. Some care and walk, and some don't care.

I think it says more about marriage than it does about the people involved. Marriage is dead.

The average marriage today is expected to last about ten years. Those married longer than that expect some kind of medal.

I think part of why guys don't fall so hard for married women is that a guy KNOWS he's crossing a line when he goes after her. So, immediately, a part of his guard is up and may well protect him from getting in too deep.

On the other hand, if the woman is unmarried, there's no line to be crossed and no reason to put his guard up. So, if things go badly, he's may well be DOA since there's no barriers put in up front.

Or, maybe we just fear getting our a**es kicked - that'll work too.

Okay. Kick this one around.

Are women more likely to go for a married man and not care because they do not fear the wife?

And do men hold back from becoming involved with a married woman because they are afraid of a run in with the husband?

Could it be something as simple as that?

Okay. Kick this one around.

Are women more likely to go for a married man and not care because they do not fear the wife?


I think that's very possible. Women in certain situations are more fearless than men. This is certainly one of those situations. Ironically enough the man fears both women in this situation though. He fears the mistress telling and his wife finding out.


And do men hold back from becoming involved with a married woman because they are afraid of a run in with the husband?

Could it be something as simple as that?

Perhaps, but that doesn't explain why single men get caught up waiting for a woman when she is openly telling him she is dating other people. The single guy waits for her if she's single with other guys, but not if she's married.

Well, I think sometimes a woman ends up dating a married man without realizing he's married. And by then emotions may be involved. I can honestly say if I found out I was the other woman, no matter what, I'd be like I'm out of here. (I truly believe once a cheater always a cheater!)

Anyway, I've said this a million times - I do not trust women. I trust my husband 100%, he knows better than to stray. But, at the same time I've VERY territorial. I see it as most men will only try to be with an attached woman if he really feels she's interested... he'll wait for a cue. However a lot of women won't... if there's a man she's interested in, she's going after him, attached or not. Women are completely vindictive. And not all women are looking for an emotional attachment either, some just want sex too! That is 1 misconception about women, everyone thinks they get deeply involved & I know of some who have had more than 1 or 2 one night stands.

Bottom line for me is marriage is sacred. When I took my vows I meant them therefore I would never cheat & I would never want to have an affair with a married man because I don't want anything to do with someone who doesn't have more respect for the woman he vowed to be faithful to.

I agree with what someone else said here. Women see other women as competition whereas most men would rather just play the field or move on to the next one. I am not speaking for myself or all men as not all us men are shallow but I do see a lot of shallowness in people. Women are very emotional creatures but then some men are too..

Here is a question though, not sure if it is relevant here but I will ask it anyway..

Is it so wrong for men to show their emotional side yet be judged as weak and inferior in terms of what society would deem as Masculine and attractive in the eyes of the opposite sex?

Is it so wrong for men to show their emotional side yet be judged as weak and inferior in terms of what society would deem as Masculine and attractive in the eyes of the opposite sex?


Hi Geoff,

If that does happen, that men are viewed as weak for showing emotion, then YES that is WRONG.

To me, it is far more weak to hide and conceal your emotions, then be strong enough and to have the courage to reveal truly how you feel. Far easier to hide, it takes great strength to be a real man and show his emotions.

And to me, nothing more attractive than a man who can show his emotions. Happy, upset, disappointed. And found the men who kept everything in, as not having the ability to open up and share what they were feeling. I felt kind of sad for them and it was hard to get to know them and trust them.

Sorry, you didn't ask for a book, :D - So to answer your question, Yes it is wrong ( In my opinion)

Hi Geoff,

If that does happen, that men are viewed as weak for showing emotion, then YES that is WRONG.

To me, it is far more weak to hide and conceal your emotions, then be strong enough and to have the courage to reveal truly how you feel. Far easier to hide, it takes great strenght to be a real man and show his emotions.

And to me, nothing more attractive than a man who can show his emotions. Happy, upset, disappointed. And found the men who kept everything in, as not having the ability to open up and share what they were feeling. I felt kind of sad for them and it was hard to get to know them and trust them.

Sorry, you didn't ask for a book, :D - So to answer your question, Yes it is wrong ( In my opinion)

Interesting... but did you always think that way or is that a result of your maturity? The reason I ask is that I think a lot of women, especially those women in their 20's see it as weakness and that is why they tend to go for the types that are really quite immature and unable to express themselves emotionally>>in essence, Jerks with a false sense of confidence.

LOL - Geoff you have the nicest way of calling me OLd - just kiddn. :)

Geoff, honestly, YUP, I always thought that way. And I saw those types of guys just like you described - "Jerks with a false sense of confidence". For that reason, I would just stand back and watch them and think, "oh my". But you are right, some of my girlfriends, would go for them and end up months later, crying on my shoulder. But there were also girls, my age, who thought the same as I did. So they are out there Geoff.

I stayed far away from those characters and tended to date older guys or just preferred not to date at all then to have to deal with the "circus act" as I referred to it. I was a bit quiet so I took a lot in. I did realize, when watching these guys, it was just a part of growing up for them, and I just hoped they would grow up in a real hurry, as I just didn't see much happiness waiting for them, nor for the person with them, if they continued like that.

That's nice of you to say, Allheart, but I've never seen a woman actually appreciate that in a man. In fact, and I know chuff will agree, most women (in my experience) appear to view emotional men as repulsive or contemptuous.

That's nice of you to say, Allheart, but I've never seen a woman actually appreciate that in a man. In fact, and I know chuff will agree, most women (in my experience) appear to view emotional men as repulsive or contemptuous.

But I think what people want changes with age. I think women appreciate these qualities as they get older and maybe have been burned by these shallow 'jerks' as we refer to them which makes an emotional man more appealing.

Then again I may be wrong and I am certainly not speaking about all women.

Hi LBP,

I am so sorry that has been your experience. Honest I am. That just stinks. Guess what, if I was a guy, I wouldn't want a "women" who thought a man was repulsive for having and showing emotions. Perhaps, these women have something lacking in them, that they are not able to deal with viewing emotions from a man.

LBP, I am not just saying these things. I honestly believe them. My father was a big strong macho man. Big guy. Funniest man on this earth. But he also had a serious side, I guess you would call it macho. A man's man. Hubby was a little leary of him in the beginning and hubby is no wallflower.

But I tell you what, my Father expressed every emotion he felt. No, he didn't walk around blubbering. But if he was happy, we knew it, if he was upset, we knew it. And if something touched his heart, we knew it. That to me is a man. The most most precious memory I have of my Father, is when us girls chipped in to by him a rocking chair for Christmas. He loved to rock in his chair. LBP, what I saw was a real man. Tears stinging his eyes, his heart just filled with joy, and he was speechless for minutes. I cherish that memory and always will. My Father didn't have much, and getting that chair from his girls meant the world to him, and you know what, we all knew it, because he was a man, a real man that expressed emotions.

I honestly, and please forgive me I do not mean to put anyone down, but I find it troubling, when a man can not express himself.

Not just words LBP, I honestly believe them and I am not alone.

Hmm

I kind of have a different view on how guys are...

I see the adultery issues everywhere. I feel like it is a shoe-in with the military lifestyle. Being over here, I have told my coworkers (Men)I am just going to wear a ring, or tell any guy who hits on me that I have a boyfriend. But then my coworkers joked saying, haha that's not going to help, that will just make things worse- they will want you even more if they can't have you.

I have not tested this theory, but it makes sense to me. The things is when I think about any of the guys here wanting to get with a married or 'taken' woman it is because they don't want the emotional attachment. They just want sex. The fact that the woman is already emotionally attached to another man means she shouldn't get attached to a sexual affair.

On the other hand, if a woman knowingly gets with a married man, its more of she thinks that this man has lost his emotional attachment to the wife, and she may have a chance to 'catch' this man. Or maybe some women think like men in the retrospect that the man is already attached and she won't have to worry about him having true feelings for her.

In the end I feel as though most women just have a more emotional attachment to men- whether they want to or not. Men seem to know how to avoid and block those attachments.

Ok I just lost my train of thought... arrg.

I think many of you have hit it on some very good points on how each of the sexes view relationships and marriage and feelings. I think women tend to follow emotion more than mind, and men tend to follow mind over emotion.
(Though don't get me wrong, I know many many stories that contradict this idea)

Geoff,

I'm not in my twenties. Lol

But I was born and brought up in Glasgow, Scotland, "where men were men." lol

I have to confess to being one of those people who thought for a long time that it was a sign of weakness to see a man cry.

You're correct when you say it is something we come to understand as we get older. My grown sons have been through some stuff and have often come to me for a little comfort. I never once thought of my sons as being soft or weak. I believe understanding them helped me to understand the 'emotional' side of men.

Five or six years after my divorce my ex and I went out together for a year. Then we had 'The Talk', we said sorry for all the troubles in the marriage, we cried and we cuddled, and then we decided to leave things as they were. And I never felt closer to him in my whole life than I felt at that moment - during our 'Talk'.

I can see your point BlueRose.

I guess because I am such the emotional type, I feel everything, I never understood those that didn't, at least to some degree. I would tend to get my feelings hurt when they wouldn't express themselves, so I just steared clear. I often wondered "is anyone home in there???". Perhaps that's just my way of thinking though. But I did feel this way in my 20s as well, no different. But guys in their 20s, when I was in my 20s, were on a totatlly different path then I was.

Anyway, that's just my view.

I agree with what some others have said here already. Women tend to get attached easier and romanticize things more (yes, even if you get involved with a married man), whereas men may be able to walk away easier and look at things more logically. Women release a bonding hormone after sex called oxytocin. Men do too, but their higher levels of testosterone overrule it, so to speak, therefore they don't get the "warm fuzzies" like we ladies do after sexual involvement. Our emotions take over our logical thoughts.

This is going to sound really daft now but sometimes I wish I did not care so much and I did not have my emotional self awareness so as to avoid getting hurt. Yet I am proud of this because deep down I know that this is a really good thing. You should never change anything like that, neither could you..

Its all about being true to yourself and others!

Sorry for being random again.. LOL>>need a coffee:)

Geoff,

That is what makes YOU so special. The key is, what will stop the hurt, is when you do find that someone, who is special enough, to not only recognize that quality about you, but who will truly appreciate it.

So, don't try and fight it Geoff. You shouldn't!! What I have learned, as I got older, is the circle of those who have a place in my heart, got smaller, but much more meaningful.

The key is, what will stop the hurt, is when you do find that someone, who is special enough, to not only recognize that quality about you, but who will truly appreciate it.

Thanks Allheart, I've got to try and keep remembering that one.:)

Cheaters be they man or woman are so selfish about their own needs and wants that they don't care about crossing boundaries or hurting feelings to get what they want. That will lie to everyone even themselves in an effort to justify what they do and why they do it. They will take willing to take outlandish chances to get what they want because that's their priority, what they want over anyone else's needs. They can be the nicest people in the world as long as their wants are met and the most devious and deceptive to get what they want. There are probably as many females as males who fall in this category but I think it's the female who is most willing to discuss it publicly as you never see a guy coming to this forum anyway, and having problems with his married mistress. I think men are more undercover and private about what they do than are women. Just my 2 cents after one cup of coffee.

Is it so wrong for men to show their emotional side yet be judged as weak and inferior in terms of what society would deem as Masculine and attractive in the eyes of the opposite sex?

I don't know if it's wrong. I do know it doesn't work. I also know I really hate it when I hear women say "we just want a man who can express himself emotionally" when the masses of them don't respond to those men.

Being a emotional guy I wish it were seen differently. I don't hide behind anything and I am who I am. I think most guys don't even know who they are and they hide behind layers of emotions which I guess is the mystery women love. But in my logical male mind it seems like someone would rather be with someone who trully knows themselves. But I don't know if women look at it like that.

I also know the best success I've had with women is blowing them off. If a guy gets turned away he generally leaves. But I've had some women who I wasn't interested in pursue me for months. Even if I wasn't interested in them at first. I showed them no emotion. In fact I guess I showed them a lack of emotion. Yet they perceived it as strong or masculine. As I look back now and realize that when I opened up to women on a emotional level, it was usually about the time the relationship started heading south. So I agree that it's wrong, but I also know, at least from my own experiences and those I've seen, that it doesn't seem to work in real life.

That's nice of you to say, Allheart, but I've never seen a woman actually appreciate that in a man. In fact, and I know chuff will agree, most women (in my experience) appear to view emotional men as repulsive or contemptuous.

I do agree. 100%. What's worse is women as a group say they "want a man that can express himself and his emotions" and yet they don't respond in real life to those men. I work in a bar and I see this pattern of behavior repeated time and again. So it's a catch 22 for emotional guys. Be emotional like women say and get ignored or be a jerk which goes against our grain and get attention.

Chuff,

Feels odd for me to say I disagree with you about your own experiences. That doesn't seem quite right does it? Now, if you dated 150 woman (you haven't have you? :) ). And this was your overall take, I would not even form a word to disagree with you.

I will assume you have not dated 150 women. Chuff, could it be, possible, when dating, or when you are interested in a women, it is a certain type of women, that catches your eye? Perhaps you are not finding or gravitating to the type of women that does indeed like a sensitive caring guy.

I have 4 sisters and each of us just loved that type of guy and really did not like the standoffish type at all. How can you hold a conversation with someone who is standoffish.

Chuff, is it possible you gravitate to the types of girls who do not like the sensitive type. Or am I way off base here?

Chuff,

Feels odd for me to say I disagree with you about your own experiences. That doesn't seem quite right does it? Now, if you dated 150 woman (you haven't have you? :) ). And this was your overall take, I would not even form a word to disagree with you.

I will assume you have not dated 150 women. Chuff, could it be, possible, when dating, or when you are interested in a women, it is a certain type of women, that catches your eye? Perhaps you are not finding or gravitating to the type of women that does indeed like a sensitive caring guy.

I have 4 sisters and each of us just loved that type of guy and really did not like the standoffish type at all. How can you hold a conversation with someone who is standoffish.

Chuff, is it possible you gravitate to the types of girls who do not like the sensitive type. Or am I way off base here?


Well the problem with that is I am not just describing myself but what I have seen with my friends both male and female. Because I'm a big guy I've been working in clubs before I could legally do it and now manage a bar and I see it repeated all the time. Now granted the people I see for the most part not church goers but I constantly hear from women, "I want a nice guy that is in touch with his emotions." Yet I see who they go out with and I know they are going to wind up used in the end but they don't seem to see it. And I always think to myself, "Who you say you want, and who you go for are two seperate people." The funny thing is no matter how much a guy is known as a jerk or has a reputation as someone that can't be trusted around women, there is always a large number of them that flock to him.

This is going to sound really daft now but sometimes I wish I did not care so much and I did not have my emotional self awareness so as to avoid getting hurt. Yet I am proud of this because deep down I know that this is a really good thing. You should never change anything like that, neither could you..

Its all about being true to yourself and others!

Sorry for being random again..LOL>>need a coffee:)

Well I probably sound daft because I don't know what daft mean! LOL.

As an emotional male I understand 100% completely what you mean. But at the end of the day I think (at least I want to think) it does mean we are more in touch with who we really are as opposed to others who are not sure what to feel.

Chuff,

I'm not saying your wrong because, of course you are not. You have seen it. But look where. A bar. Sad to say, but sometimes, that goes hand in hand. Don't you think?

I am sure you have seen it outside the bar atmosphere as well, but yes, it will be all over the bar scene.

And you are right, if there is one creep, there are 20 girls who are after him. Don't ask me why that is. But I was never one of the 20. Nor where a lot of other girls. Just don't get discouraged or change who you are, you either Geoff, and Chuff, I doubt you will and your friends shouldn't either. There are incredible girls out there, that value the very things you fine gentlemen have. That's the Allheart truth.

You just have to keep those eyes open and really listen to what they are saying. Not so much what they are looking for in a guy, but other parts of their conversation can be very telling. Is it always something that centers around them??

The bar scene, can be a lot of fun and a place to really unwind, but it should only be a small contributing factor to how you view the mindset of women and men.

Chuff,

I'm not saying your wrong becuase, of course you are not. You have seen it. But look where. A bar. Sad to say, but sometimes, that goes hand in hand. Don't you think?

I am sure you have seen it outside the bar atmosphere as well, but yes, it will be all over the bar scene.

But that's just it. I saw this in college. I see this with my friends who don't work in a bar. I see this in my with my hotel empolyees. I've seen this with other jobs I've held. I've seen this in society. I see it with celebrities. I see it in the news. I see this everywhere.

But that's just it. I saw this in college. I see this with my friends who don't work in a bar. I see this in my with my hotel empolyees. I've seen this with other jobs I've held. I've seen this in society. I see it with celebrities. I see it in the news. I see this everywhere.


And I believe you Chuff, I truly do. Perhaps I have been out of that part of the world for so long, I truly have lost touched. That is very sad and these girls need to wake up. Times must have really changed. I wouldn't go by the celebrity thing though, that's just a shallow life style anyway. There's nothing to real about there to begin with. Six month relationships in Hollywood is an eternity.

I honestly don't know what to say. For all the tears I saw shed from my sisters, to my friends, and to think someone would turn away from a caring guy, is hard for me to understand. In my sisters case and friends case, we thought they WERE a good guy, only to find out just the opposite. The guys would come off as caring, loving, sensitive and attentive and then BAM, the other and real side would come out. That is mostly what I would see.

Let's hope for better days ahead.

I've never cheated on or lied to a woman. I've never done anything other than be myself. I'm a good looking, driven, confident and charming person. I am also passionate and, for the most part, emotionally available. I've got a lot of pride in myself, but it's tempered by self-awareness... I try not to become too wrapped in myself and always leave my thoughts open to the influence of others.

I've never been dumped for acting like a jerk, though heck knows that I do that from time to time. I have, however, been dumped for giving a girl what she wants and supporting her through the tought times. I remember my ex, as a matter of fact, in citing our problems as saying that 'we're probably too honest with each other.'

Honest to goodness quote. I've heard women say the same thing you're saying, Allheart, and the difference between you and them is that where you would appear to have acted on your thoughts, when put on the spot, the women I'm talking about CANNOT COME UP WITH A SINGLE INSTANCE WHERE THEY WENT AFTER AND WERE SATISFIED BY THE EMOTIONAL GUY. It's amazing. Not one damn time.

Why is this? Women really want this alleged 'available man' yet can't seem to come across one in the enteriety of existence? I know they exist. This board is full of them! And what's our uniting characteristic? We all got DUMPED.

I want to give women the love and respect they deserve. I really do. It makes me sick to my stomach to see men do what they to women. But maybe those guys just know something I don't. Certainly gets them to second base a lot more often.

LBP are you Geoff, and I triplets separated at birth? This is exactly what I'm thinking and your quote was so close to home.


I've never cheated on or lied to a woman. I've never done anything other than be myself. I'm a good looking, driven, confident and charming person. I am also passionate and, for the most part, emotionally available. I've got a lot of pride in myself, but it's tempered by self-awareness... I try not to become too wrapped in myself and always leave my thoughts open to the influence of others.

I've never been dumped for acting like a jerk, though heck knows that I do that from time to time. I have, however, been dumped for giving a girl what she wants and supporting her through the tought times.

Exactly. I've been there. You help them through a tough time and then you find yourself kicked to the curb. I guess that's what being a doormat is but as a male we would think that a woman would like a guy that can help them through emotional times as opposed to just say "leave me alone, I don't have time for you."


I remember my ex, as a matter of fact, in citing our problems as saying that 'we're probably too honest with each other.'

This is so unbelievable. I'm almost at a loss. Because believe it or not I actually heard something very similar once. The quote I was given was "We probably got too close to each other and if we hadn't things would have worked out." I was shocked when I heard that. That makes no sense.

I will admit looking back that there was not an arua of mystery but I guess when you don't hide who you are you expect to be appreciated for your honesty and not scolded for it. When I read you quote LBP that sent me back years to her saying that.


Honest to goodness quote. I've heard women say the exact same thing you're saying, Allheart, and the difference between you and them is that where you would appear to have acted on your thoughts, when put on the spot, the women I'm talking about CANNOT COME UP WITH A SINGLE INSTANCE WHERE THEY WENT AFTER AND WERE SATISFIED BY THE EMOTIONAL GUY.

Exactly. They say it verbally but they don't back it up with action.


It's amazing. Not one damn time.

Why is this? Women really want this alleged 'available man' yet can't seem to come across one in the enteriety of existance? I know they exist. This board is full of them!

It is. And you see it all the time from guys that get dumped by a woman who leaves him for another guy that is a complete self obsessed a**hole. Then 6 month later those same woman complain that guys just want one thing and can't be trusted. That's true of some guys yes, but I'm going to go on record and say that is not of MOST men.


And what's our uniting characteristic? We all got DUMPED.

And in some cases such as myself spent a lifetime getting dumped for the most part. I've end some relationships but not because I found someone else.


I want to give women the love and respect they deserve. I really do. It makes me sick to my stomach to see men do what they to women. But maybe those guys just know something I don't. Certainly gets them to second base a lot more often.

Even after the girls get abused and used by these guys they hate all men but if the guy calls them back up many women will they jump right back in. That's not to say guys won't either, but they won't do it with a married woman like a woman would with a married man.

I have been giving this more thought too as its really an intriguing question. Since married men and women cheat at about the same percentages, do the women tend to cheat with married men more and do the men tend to cheat with single women more? I wonder...

I know that while I have never cheated, wouldn't even entertain the idea for three seconds--- the only time I was involved with a married man was when it had begun before he told me he was married. A ring on his hand would have helped, as someone pointed out earlier.

As for the emotional man thing, I have to say that I think we (men and women) are not so different save what is put on us culturlally. Oh yeah there are some minor but significant biological differences I know, and I won't go into them now LOL. But the idea that a man can't be emotional is just hogwash! And the girls who support that profile are immature and worse, shallow.

Since I have never been one to buy into the conventional notion of anything, it moved me greatly the first time (of quite a few times now) that I saw my strong, very masculine partner cry. He is as emotional as I am rational -- we both blew up conventional roles like that a long time ago. We made mincement out of that "Men are from Mars and women are from Venus" book and loved doing it LOL. But it took me a long time to find my match in this culture and we both had to fail at first marriages too. So maybe its more a matter of how much does one buy into the prescribed notions of who you are "supposed" to be according to the culture... shrugs?

I think a lot of what you are talking about Chuff has to do with age and maturity. Women in their 20's are very different than women in their 30's as are women in their 40's and so on. I don't think, at least in the US, that many women are very emotionally mature as adults but this goes to how the culture has rather supported that too. Too much "Paris Hilton" allure has allowed too many girls to hang onto the shallow bratty side of adolescence well into adulthood, ugh!

Kudos to you, Valinor - you seem like a very together person. But consider - would so many of us men have so many similar stories if there weren't a little truth to it? I mean, it's almost comical how our experiences mirror each other's!

LBP are you Geoff, and I triplets seperated at birth? This is exactly what what I'm thinking and your quote was so close to home.

Perhaps Quadruplets because we forgot Skell.


I have been giving this more thought too as its really an intriguing question. Since married men and women cheat at about the same percentages, do the women tend to cheat with married men more and do the men tend to cheat with single women more? I wonder...

If I had to place a bet on it, then I would place it on the Married men cheating with single women more rather than the married woman cheating with the single man but then I really don't know.

I do agree with something Wildcat quite often says and that is, people want what they can't have.

And I also agree with what val says about men and women not being that much different emotional creatures. I just think that women are usually better at dealing with and expressing their emotions than men are yet I also believe that it has a lot to do with age too.

Kudos to you, Valinor - you seem like a very together person. But consider - would so many of us men have so many similar stories if there weren't a little truth to it? I mean, it's almost comical how our experiences mirror each other's!
Oh no, I was agreeing with you more than it may have sounded like. Its just, I think its source is more cultural than biological, that's all. There is a lot of common ground -- look at the opera Carmen (about a manipulative girl who takes a love-struck man down the proverbial path to tragedy).

LBP and Chuff and Geoff,

I have to say the one thing that just blew me away on this site was, just what you are saying, seeing the amount of guys on here who are truly hurting over a girl ending the relationship. I still am in amazement. LBP, tell me she really didn't say that. You are too honest with each other?? I can see your frustration.

I don't know what to say to the 3 of you. Each of you deserve the greatest of girls, who can truly appreciate the men that you truly are. Please don't change who you are, because of past and current hurts or those of your friends.

I will tell you this, the more the guy would open up to me, the closer I felt to him and in my hubby's case, the more I found myself falling in love with him and it showed that he truly trusted me.

There has got to be girls out there, who not only say they want a sensitive caring guy, but actually proves it in her actions. There just has to be.

This feels to me like a rehash of the old "Why do girls only date the jerks and not the nice guys?" discussion.

Women out there do appreciate the emotionally available men. Not all of them, of course, but a lot do. One thing you have to remember, though, is that 'emotionally available' means different things to different people... some women may simply want empathy, while others may want a fully open and (if you'll pardon the expression) 'womanish' emotional awareness in their men. If your definition and theirs are too different, then she'll see you as either a wuss or a jerk, and you'll see her as a hypocrite or unreasonable, when it really just comes down to a simple misunderstanding.

Success in a relationship includes tempering yourself for the needs of your partner... simply being emotionally available isn't enough if it's not the right kind of emotionally available.

In 1970's, when I first encountered Women's Liberation I wrote an essay article about how, if we don't correspondingly raise the conscienceness of men, we will only compound our troubles by widening the gap between the genders, that men have equally as restraining conditions being put on them. And it was sadly too radical of a view for even the underground paper on campus, sheesh! I know I sound like an aging hippy but that's because I am, dammit Janet! LOL

I may make my "liberated" sisters annoyed with this remark but... the number of children being raised by single mothers is making it very difficult, I think. Single mothers aren't as capable of raising boys to men like men are. And where you really see the damage is correspondingly, the girls have expectations about guys that are out of line with reality. So here we are now in a culture where we are encouraged to distance ourselves from our emotions as much as possible, and at such an expense too, oy!

I think society is changing and it is becoming more socially acceptable to express oneself.

Or is that just my idealist side surfacing? Yet it seems many people feel an obligation to project themselves in a way that is socially acceptable when common sense would say that just being yourself is the best thing that you could be.

Allow me to illustrate my point.

I live with three room mates, all men. We get along because we're of a similar sort of temperament. We're all honest, sensitive, caring guys who are for the most part physically attractive. Not one of us would ever cheat on a woman or lie to her. Out of these four men, we've had maybe a dozen dates over the course of college (most of them by me). I had my girlfriend and another has a girl at the moment (his first in his entire college career) who is over decade older than he is (Geoff, you may be on to something).

A group of friends live down the way - they, like us, are a group of four men living together. They are not so different from us. Same age, similar education choices. The difference is that these guys could give a crap about what a woman thinks or feels. One has had a girlfriend for four years of college and has cheated on her more times than I can count. She has always come back. Another has dated two women at the same time, on more than one occasion! In fact, all four of them have indiscriminently and with abandon treated women like objects designed for their pleasure. They even joke about it. Needless to say, these men blow me and my roomies utterly out of the water in terms of getting women. What am I suppose to learn from this?

I mean, you can say that it isn't so as often as you want! You can even say it's cliché to point it out. But I can only judge the world as I see it.

Are you aware LBP, that the very same thing could be said from the woman's point of view? The moral of the story seems to be more a case of if you are willing to be a user about it, you'll hook up easier, doesn't matter what gender you are. But if you are going for quality stuff, well, that takes effort... no?

There are good girls and bad...

There are good guys and bad...

And the bad ones always make the good ones doubt themselves, until one gets enough perspective (usually from time passing by) to see how it really works. Sadly by then some of the good and bad will have married and had kids.

What am I suppose to learn from this?

You can learn that you are a better human being than they probably ever will be and you should be proud of what you are, which I suspect you do.

I understand that resentment and I see it a lot too..

Another point is that a lot of younger women in their 20's think that is what they want, only to realise later on in life that really, they want the opposite. I have heard that said a lot by women in their 30's upwards both here and in my own life. In fact, one woman I used to work with was in her early 30's... She told me that she spent all her 20's seeing those types who cheated and lied to her. She even said she had a child with one of them and he did the same. Now she has met a nice, genuine man and married him... She said she has never been happier yet she said rewind her life 10 years or so and she would never have even thought twice about seeing someone like him..

Allow me to illustrate my point.

I live with three room mates, all men. We get along because we're of a similar sort of temperment. We're all honest, sensitive, caring guys who are for the most part physically attractive. Not one of us would ever cheat on a woman or lie to her. Out of these four men, we've had maybe a dozen dates over the course of college (most of them by me). I had my girlfriend and another has a girl at the moment (his first in his entire college career) who is over decade older than he is (Geoff, you may be on to something).

A group of friends live down the way - they, like us, are a group of four men living together. They are not so different from us. Same age, similar education choices. The difference is that these guys could give a crap about what a woman thinks or feels. One has had a girlfriend for four years of college and has cheated on her more times than I can count. She has always come back. Another has dated two women at the same time, on more than one occasion! In fact, all four of them have indiscriminently and with abandon treated women like objects designed for their pleasure. They even joke about it. Needless to say, these men blow me and my roomies utterly out of the water in terms of getting women. What am I suppose to learn from this?

I mean, you can say that it isn't so as often as you want! You can even say it's cliche to point it out. But I can only judge the world as I see it.

And you envy their success* with women. Would you be happy nailing every piece of tail that you could con back to your place? Probably not. Since you wouldn't be happy doing that, it doesn't make any sense to compare your dating life to one based on doing that. So long as you equate their numbers with success, you've already lost, because you couldn't possibly be happy doing what they're doing. One girl for you is going to be more satisfying than twenty, because you're not just going to hit it and quit it.

As for me, I've been on all sides of the dating fence... I've been the cheating boyfriend. I've been the one cheated on. I've had purely physical relationships. I've been the one to add emotion to what was supposed to be a purely physical relationship. I've been the nice guy lamenting that all the girls date jerks. I've been the jerk getting too many girls. I've had sex with someone whose last name I still don't know. I've been a borderline stalker. I've been obsessed, and obsessed over.

Currently, I'm single, and have been for two years... I've had one pseudo-date and one sexual encounter with a friend in that time, and you know what? I'm happy with that. The biggest thing I've learned from all the stuff I've done is that the only person who has anything to do with me being happy is me... I don't need to live up to what anybody else is doing in their life, and I don't have to worry about any standards other than my own. Comparing yourself to someone else's standards is just going to make you miserable, because you're simply not them.

* - Success on their terms anyway, and since it's an issue for you, it seems that you see some value in that measure of success

This is what I think successful growing up into some healthy emotional maturity sounds like:

"I don't need to live up to what anybody else is doing in their life, and I don't have to worry about any standards other than my own."

I'd lay some brownie (or perhaps greenie) points on you but I got the gull derned spread message again, Nos.

This is what I think successful growing up into some healthy emotional maturity sounds like:

"I don't need to live up to what anybody else is doing in their life, and I don't have to worry about any standards other than my own."

I'd lay some brownie (or perhaps greenie) points on you but I got the gull derned spread message again, Nos.

I guess I should wait longer between posting useful messages :D

It always feels strange to respond to the same post twice, but it's for a different reason this time.


Allow me to illustrate my point.

I live with three room mates, all men. We get along because we're of a similar sort of temperment. We're all honest, sensitive, caring guys who are for the most part physically attractive. Not one of us would ever cheat on a woman or lie to her. Out of these four men, we've had maybe a dozen dates over the course of college (most of them by me). I had my girlfriend and another has a girl at the moment (his first in his entire college career) who is over decade older than he is (Geoff, you may be on to something).

A group of friends live down the way - they, like us, are a group of four men living together. They are not so different from us. Same age, similar education choices. The difference is that these guys could give a crap about what a woman thinks or feels. One has had a girlfriend for four years of college and has cheated on her more times than I can count. She has always come back. Another has dated two women at the same time, on more than one occasion! In fact, all four of them have indiscriminently and with abandon treated women like objects designed for their pleasure. They even joke about it. Needless to say, these men blow me and my roomies utterly out of the water in terms of getting women. What am I suppose to learn from this?

I mean, you can say that it isn't so as often as you want! You can even say it's cliche to point it out. But I can only judge the world as I see it.

"Spreading it around" brought to mind a couple of thoughts on some advice for the immediate situation, namely... spread yourselves around a bit.

Engage in a bit of 'disposable dating.' (a terrible sounding term, but disturbingly apt) Go out with a girl, any girl, without any thoughts of a next date or what might/will happen in the future. Have fun with it (not at her expense, obviously), and if no second date materializes, don't worry about it... that wasn't the point of the exercise. This will get you an appreciation for another side of dating than the one you see now... remember that there's no approach to dating that is completely 100% wrong, and that there's always something that you can use to help your normal approach.

This will also help counter a couple of the tendencies that I know I had when I was where you are now:
1) Becoming emotionally invested in a relationship immediately, rather than having it develop over time. This issue leads to being overly bitter about the end of a short relationship.
2) Becoming emotionally invested while working up the nerve to ask a girl out, also known as falling in love with the idea of a girl rather than the girl herself. This leads to obsession, and increased difficulty in getting up the nerve to ask her out for fear of rejection, and soon you're in a really bad place.

I hear what you're saying and I know I'm living in extremes at the moment. It just seems like there's this wall of deception out there that no matter how much you don't like it you'll have to work with in order to make things work. Like the social gaming that I mentioned before.

I like your points, Nosnosna. But it does happen, to both men and women, that a partner will encourage you to invest yourself emotionally and then do a complete 180. The ex I'm referring to, for example, even went so far as to talk to me about apartments where we might live in New York City, told me that I was her other half, etc etc. I'm sure you know the sort of thing I'm talking about. Then, nothing! I mean, what do you do when that happens?

Not let it get to that point, I suppose. Hold yourself in reserve. I thought a matter of months would be suffecient, but I think a year or more sounds far more appropriate. Well, in any event, I've really enjoyed this discussion and it's certainly given me a lot to think about if nothing else. Thanks a lot, all of you!

Engage in a bit of 'disposable dating.' (a terrible sounding term, but disturbingly apt) Go out with a girl, any girl, without any thoughts of a next date or what might/will happen in the future. Have fun with it (not at her expense, obviously), and if no second date materializes, don't worry about it... that wasn't the point of the exercise.
I really like this idea even if I am not sure I like the terms used LOL. In fact, I use this very same approach when looking for a job. I apply at places I have very little intention of hiring into so I can get in some "practice" interviewing. It really helps me polish up my approach. Life does allow a little "dress rehersal" if you are creative enough! :p

I do hear LBP's legit complaint. The lines between fantasy and reality have been seriously blurred and culturally we have justified more and more selfishness and dishonesty. When enough people begin to operate out of a kind of jadedness and defend themselves by putting on an act (which is essentially lying), the genuine and nice people feel like they get left holding the bag. I grew up in a seriously dysfunctional family of amazing liars who don't really know they lie LOL. They taught me to develop discernment with people, among other things. My brother has been married seven times, I am not kidding -- he and his ex's could easily be several Oprah or Dr Phil shows in themselves! So I know, for me, how to be much slower to believe everything people say. I like to let time, their actions and their friends/family confirm how truthful they are being with me.

These days, too many people are in denial too (denial = don't even notice I am lying). I like to think I have a kind of healthy skepticism without cynicism to it. I know I am genuine but the rest of you will just have to prove it. Its called the "we'll see" approach and I recommend it to anyone, especially those who are dating. S-l-o-o-o-o-o-o-w down.. . Because lies do not endure the test of time!

And you're welcome LBP, it was a good question!

I hear what you're saying and I know I'm living in extremes at the moment. It just seems like there's this wall of deception out there that no matter how much you don't like it you'll have to work with in order to make things work. Like the social gaming that I mentioned before.

I like your points, Nosnosna. But it does happen, to both men and women, that a partner will encourage you to invest yourself emotionally and then do a complete 180. The ex I'm refering to, for example, even went so far as to talk to me about apartments where we might live in New York City, told me that I was her other half, etc etc. I'm sure you know the sort of thing I'm talking about. Then, nothing! I mean, what do you do when that happens?

Not let it get to that point, I suppose. Hold yourself in reserve. I thought a matter of months would be suffecient, but I think a year or more sounds far more appropiate. Well, in any event, I've really enjoyed this discussion and it's certainly given me a lot to think about if nothing else. Thanks a lot, all of you!

Oh, I've been there, absolutely.

What do you do when that happens? You get bitter, you doubt yourself, and you hate her. And then after a while you get over it... took me the better part of a year on the big one, and that included a couple of short-term relationships that suffered because they were still in the fallout. Turns out the girl who did that is one of my closest friends now.

You don't gain anything by holding yourself in reserve... sure, it keeps you from getting hurt, but it also ends up hurting the people you date from then on. You learn from it, absolutely, and you get better at reading signs. Most ugly breakups happen because one person has a gradual cooling of their side of the relationship, which goes unmentioned by them and unnoticed by their partner until it gets to be too extreme to be dealt with rationally. With one of these under your belt (and, more importantly, time to look back nostalgically at the relationship once you've gotten over most of the bitter), you'll be able to better see it coming in the future, and be able to mitigate it somewhat when it does happen.

...

And then you have some partners who are actually manipulative psychos. Unfortunately, no amount of experience will keep you from ever meeting one of them :)

This is a very interesting thread, Like allheart I am AMAZED to see the amount of nice guys on this board and every day a new one coming with the "i need space" question...

I am one of those girls who dated jerks throughout most of the 20s..
After having had a serious relationship from 18-21 (when I look back now he was possibly the most husband material of the whole lot but I was young then so did not know it! ) ,
Ive been doing a lot of reflecting recently and wondering why I dated so many jerks and actually believed they would lead to a long lasting relationship..!

In fact I believe its because I was unready to commit myself that unsubconsiously I chose guys who I knew were not ready to commit either..

So guys maybe this is the whole problem... what kind of girls are you choosing?

In the late 20s I decided it was time to find a more serious ,Sensitive type of guy.When he told me he loved me after 1 month I nearly fell down as I had not heard that line for more than 8 years!

Now another thing I've seen recently is that all my female friends are with younger guys. Ive about 5 friends going out with guys up to a decade younger... is this because younger guys want to find a girl to commit and these are the girls who are 30 or more?
Are younger girls just not ready to commit and that is why they are choosing jerks?

Okay this was brought up in another post by Wildcat. I didn't want to take away from the original poster but this has been on my mind all day and I just want to get some other feedback on it. The OP was a mistress and as WC points out we've been seeing a lot of that here lately. Here's what WC said..



EXACTLY! Wildcat is dead on correct. But my question is why? It almost seems like it should be the other way around.

I don't think it's any secret that women are better at reading, using, and applying emotions then men are. Women are emotional and use that to their advantage over men. This board is field with men who get caught up being played by women and there emotional games. I know I myself have been caught more than once. I am also a highly sensitive male.

Yet I would never get involved with a married woman. Even for me and some of the situations I've been in where I was thinking emotionally and not rationally I realize there is a limit. Marriage is a limit.

So I guess my question is how can such a large number of women who should be more emotionally aware of a married man's intentions because of their higher acuteness to emotional games and situations get caught up in this problem?

Then on the flip side, why do men, quite honestly like myself very emotional, and some of the other posters here who are just not as emotional as me but still men. In other words they have no advantage over reading a woman emotionally like a woman can read a man. Why are men not caught up in this situation where the women is cheating and he is blinded so much he can't see what's going on. Because if you look at our male posters, many of them are blinded by a woman's emotional games and even know she's having relations with other guys but they act like the mistresses do. The only difference is their isn't a marriage involved.

God I hope this makes some kind of sense. In my brain it makes perfect sense, or at least my question does but I'm not sure I'm translating it here well.

In short my question is why isn't this the other way around, why do emotionally “scarce” men not fall for this and emotionally “intelligent” women do on such a great number?

U know I'm 17 years old and comeing from me may not mean anything to you but I may be able to answer this one. My mom a few years ago meat some guy over the internet and my mom and dad wear marryed. So I busted my mom and my dad didn't want to beleave me because comeing from a 10 year old doesn't mean nothen so I got into her computer and showed my dad everything because ownestlly I don't like females not because of what my mom did to us. The guy told her he was getting 6 million dollors because he got a one little peace taken out of his finger from work little does the stooped knows its 1 thous for every nuckle well any way It some times happens like that or marryed women are eather not happy with there husbans they could be getting abused or something for men the way I beleave they look at it. They want something new so they cheat or the women is a compleat CRAZY and daserves it. Yea its hard to find someone because I see a few people myself go thew it I'm sorry I can't help with that but. Just stay away from marryed people makes to meny PROBLEMS and you don't want that. AND the thing you ask because GUYS FIND IT SEXY AS THEY WOULD SAY and its kind of odd how that happens. I guess it just they way we are :confused: And its OK to be emoc yourself because it just shows you have a heart and for the women who play good men NEED A NEW BRAIN or something because it makes not sents why should they do it they wouldn't like it done to them. " THERE IMMATURE " they don't know what they want. But for some reson good men finish last I know that sucks but it seems to be the truth

So guys maybe this is the whole problem...what kind of girls are you choosing?I dated a lot before getting married at 35. ALL of the women I dated were intelligent and kind. I could not stand dating an airhead who thought her makeup/shoes/purse/cellphone were important status symbols or who want a guy who has the fancy car (my car doesn't define who I am). Plus she had to be kind: kind to others, empathetic, not-self-centered. But above all I can't stand any game-playing as I do not do it to them. In my view the game-playing reveals immaturity.

At the end of it all I have a great wife, 2 great kids and a nice life. I am putting my wilder side (French Canadian 'joie-de-vivre':)) on hold for a while for the sake of raising our kids.

Are younger girls just not ready to commit and that is why they are choosing jerks?

I think so... My ex told her family who were upset about the breakup that she was too young to be tied down, that she wished she met me later on in life, that she was too young... Which she was.

This suggests to me that she knew I was ready for commitment, that I was husband material or at the very least serious relationship material but she was just not ready for all that and neither was I at her age. I think I chose the wrong woman? But maybe not, maybe the right woman at the wrong time. Perhaps it is a question of timing.

Yeah I think its all just a question of timing and maturity...
Your ex reminds me a bit of myself at that age... just not ready, I'm sure she will go from jerk to jerk now and in the 30s wake up wondering how did I get here...

yeah i think its all just a question of timing and maturity...
Your ex reminds me a bit of myself at that age...just not ready, im sure she will go from jerk to jerk now and in the 30s wake up wondering how did i get here.....

Perhaps young women in their early 20's need to go through some toads to either meet their prince or realise what a prince is...

I just hope I was not one of the toads>>>LOL

That's it!
Eventually she will look back and realise it, but she will also know that she was not ready at that time.

I guess what I'm saying is when it comes to emotions women are better at using them and understanding them then men are. Time and again we see men here on this site and even in life around us that get fixated on a girl and can't let it go. She can dump him and go out with another person and he'd still take her back in a heartbeat. She'd repeat the pattern and keep him always hanging on. Yet most of the time the woman is single.

However if that situation is reversed and the guy keeps the woman hanging on, many times the guy is married. In other words a woman won't necessarily let marriage stop her from getting involved or really what I mean is EMOTIONALLY wrapped up into him.

And my point is that despite what popular culture and many women might say about men, we do have feelings and we do get emotional and in reality we have a difficult time letting go or getting out of relationships. But those are primarily with single women. Married women don't give us the same emotional hangups that single women do. However, single women do get caught up by the married man. And since women are "emotionally smarter" then men, to me it would seem that they should not fall for a married mans lies and emotional games like guys would and indeed do with single women.
Just not married women.

Speak for yourslef, I think a married women can and do string single guys along all the time, especially when it started as just sex but the guy starts falling in love and the women will say anything to make sure the sex doesn't stop. I'm actually going to start a post on that topic.

Speak for yourslef, I think a married women can and do string single guys along all the time, especially when it started off as just sex but the guy starts falling in love and the women will say anything to make sure the sex doesn't stop. I'm actually going to start a post on that topic.

I never said they couldn't. I think if you reread what I wrote you'll see I was speaking for the majority of cases, not every case. The majority of the time that is what takes place. Just because you as a male participated in an affair in which you became emotionally attached doesn't make it "common" or as common as a single woman getting attached to a married man. That is common in society and is a common issue here at this board.

I never said they couldn't. I think if you reread what I wrote you'll see I was speaking for the majority of cases, not every case. The majority of the time that is what takes place. Just because you as a male participated in an affair in which you became emotionally attached doesn't make it "common" or as common as a single woman getting attached to a married man. That is common in society and is a common issue here at this board.

Guess I was just looking to get into the mindset of a married women who does this to a single guy, sorry if I came across as lashing out at you.

Guess I was just looking to get into the mindset of a married women who does this to a single guy, sorry if I came across as lashing out at you.

Amazingly, you are not the first to lash out at my unique perspective.