Hello again, Rick:

Well, you asked about your Muslim friend who clams up. I just tried to explain why I thought he did.

It's true, I made an assumption. I based it on your faith. MOST Christians unabashedly support Israel. I coulda been wrong, of course. Am I?

excon

I wouldn't agree that "MOST Christians unabashedly support Israel".

No, I don't "unabashedly support Israel"... but to discuss that would be to hijack this thread.

That issue is nowhere close to the "Mosque at ground zero" issue. If you'd like to discuss it, start a new thread :)

That issue is nowhere close to the "Mosque at ground zero" issue. If you'd like to discuss it, start a new thread :)These Current Events threads get going in new directions all the time, no reason to stop now. :)

These Current Events threads get going in new directions all the time, no reason to stop now. :)
Don't tempt me. I've got a list.

Why do reputable TV and radio shows advertise "buy gold now" when buying gold now is so stupid?

Why do so many people fall for the "reduce your credit card debt" scams?

Why do governments continue to reward people on welfare for having more babies that they can't afford?

Why can't citizens in every state own and carry a firearm without ridiculous restrictions?

The list goes on and on... but here on this site we like to stick to the issue of the subject line. We offer unlimited space to ask or discuss anything, so all we ask is to stick to the subject. The same would be true in a normal conversation. If it gets off subject, one of the two (or group) discussing or debating the issue would be right to say "that's another issue". :)

Why do reputable tv and radio shows advertise "buy gold now" when buying gold now is so stupid?Pray on the ignorant.


Why do so many people fall for the "reduce your credit card debt" scams?Greed, laziness and lack of discipline to correct the situation properly.


Why do governments continue to reward people on welfare for having more babies that they can't affort?Don't know.


Why can't citizens in every state own and carry a firearm without ridiculous restrictions?Y'all can shoot yourselves silly, don't why they should stop you from doing that.


but here on this site we like to stick to the issue of the subject line. Not in these threads, they often end up talking about football or the weather or if it's a bunch of women as well it's often full of sexual innuendos.

Why do reputable tv and radio shows advertise "buy gold now" when buying gold now is so stupid?Hello Rick:

We've HANDLED the mosque. Besides, it's MY thread.

Gold and silver pretty much move in tandem. When I was a kid, you could buy a gallon of gasoline for a quarter. Today, you still can. The melt value for a silver quarter today, is $3.3375358040.

Now, if you think gasoline will go DOWN in price, then it would stupid to buy gold, but...

excon

The Muslims WILL call it the Mohammed ATTAH memorial Mosque... and it WILL be a pillgramage point for all radical Muslims if its #1 allowed to be built, and #2 nobody burns it down if it is.

And it IS and would be a in your FACE America swipe since so many in the Muslim world... INCLUDING the Palestinians that celebrated in the streets on 9/11. Many of us have not forgotten videos of those celebrations across the Muslim world that day.

What part of that the people who think it should be allowed do they not grasp?

Hello smoothy:

I agree that with all the hatred surrounding the mosque, some nut will try it. That's because some people, like the nut, will believe anything that's fed to them.

excon

The fact is that every construction /reconstruction project in the areas has been tied up in bureaucratic red tape for almost a decade. Yet the Cordoba project appears to be getting a fast track .

I wonder why that is ? A thorough investigation of the finances could provide answers I'd wager .

Hello smoothy:

I agree that with all the hatred surrounding the mosque, some nut will try it. That's because some people, like the nut, will believe anything that's fed to them.

excon

Any Mosque AT or NEAR ground Zero will be a defacto Terrorist Memorial to any and all Islamic radicals. Fact of life. Why else is a Mosque being built there by a known radical Immam? THere is no other reason. He wants a memorial to the dead terrorists right were it will be most in our faces.



NYC has plenty of other Mosques... they are not lacking for a place of whoreship in that town.

I suggest we allow that Mosque, right after the Cathedral is finished being built in Mecca. Quid pro Quo.

After All, how is that any different than NeoNazis erecting a shrine right next to any and all Holocaust memorials that exist... and why is that any different.

They do NOT have a right top put a Mosque wherever they want any more than anyone else has a right to put anything they want wherever they want. There is no constitutional provision giving them those rights nobody else has in the USA.

I suggest we allow that Mosque, right after the the Cathedral is finished being built in Mecca. Quid pro Quo.Hello again, smoothy:

I KNEW you tea partiers didn't really like the Constitution. You'd rather we ditch it and adopt the standards of Saudi Arabia. Why do you hate this country so?

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I KNEW you tea partiers didn't really like the Constitution. You'd rather we ditch it and adopt the standards of Saudi Arabia. Why do you hate this country so?

excon

Where in the Constitution does it say Muslims can plop a Mosque wherever they want, without public review and acceptance everyone else has to follow? I can't even put an addition onto my house without approval of the neighbors. THe Immam that want to build that Mosque thinks WE should adopt Sharia law... in violation of our constitution.

What about the rights of Americans to NOT be offended by a Memorial to the 9/11 terrorists Or subsidizing that memorial through tax exempt status.

You can't build a Church anywhere you want (public impact thing)... where do they get off doing that.

Hello smoothy:

Although I LOVE arguing with you, you showed up late to the party with old arguments. They've been disposed of.

excon

Hello smoothy:

Although I LOVE arguing with you, you showed up late to the party with old arguments. They've been disposed of.

excon

True... I've been busy with other things and didn't have the time until now.

Um, I haven't said anything about banning the mosque. But if Gutfeld would build it I just might donate to help build the gay bar next door as an outreach to gay Muslims. I hear there's been plenty of suggestions for naming the place.


Best one I've heard so far was Sheik Yourbooty.

As for me, I agree with some of what Smooty is saying and some of what Excon is saying.

Smoothy: Yes, it could end up being a Terrorist Memorial, but I'm not aware that it wants "to be built by a known radical"

Excon: You should not presume that Smoothy is someone who does not "like the Constitution".

Frankly, I "don't like" the Constitution in that it is so vague in many areas that radicals can make laws saying that some things that the founders believed in have been since deemed "Unconstitutional".

Probably means nothing here, but I just wanted to say it.

As for me, I agree with some of what Smooty is saying and some of what Excon is saying.

Smoothy: Yes, it could end up being a Terrorist Memorial, but I'm not aware that it wants "to be built by a known radical"

Excon: You should not presume that Smoothy is someone who does not "like the Constitution".

Frankly, I "don't like" the Constitution in that it is so vague in many areas that radicals can make laws saying that some things that the founders believed in have been since deemed "Unconstitutional".

Probably means nothing here, but I just wanted to say it.

The Immam that is collecting money and footing the drive to build this actually is known as a radical that days after 9/11 made disparaging remarks about the USA... so by definition he is a known radical. His actions and public statements back up that statement.

Pajamas Media Ground Zero Imam: 'I Don't Believe in Religious Dialogue' (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/ground-zero-imam-i-dont-believe-in-religious-dialogue/)

I have Muslim friends, they know better than push their religion on me, and I'm not one to push mine on them... but some things are just NOT open for discussion. Such as the IRA building a memorial to its dead right across from Buckingham Palace, A memorial to the Memory of Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City, etc... all intended to be an In-your-face reminder of what has happened in the past, and not in a good way.

On the lighter side... here is a list of proposed names for the Men only social club they claim they will have.



31. Infidel-ity
30. Honor Drillings
29. Jihard
28. Filthy Omar's Rusty Trombone
27. The Arabian Queen
26. Dune Biters
25. Goat's Night Off
24. The Pink Prophet
23. The Leather Burqa
22. Git Mo
21. Pig in a Poke
20. Sheiks & Freaks
19. Sodom and Gonorrhea
18. Osama Bin Dover
17. The Exploding Goat
16. Weapons of A*s Destruction
15. Alla Assbar
14. Anderson Cooper's Apartment
13. The Sticky Prophet
12. The Sphinxter
11. Grind Zero
10. Nuclear Fuel Rods
9. Hassan's TestostoRoom
8. Turbuns
7. Bunker Busters
6. The Tali-bone
5. Al-Jizzera
4. The Gaza Stripper
3. The Sandy Gerbil
2. The Camel's Hump
1. Hide the Minaret

The Immam that is collecting money and footing the drive to build this actually is known as a radical that days after 9/11 made disparaging remarks about the USA....so by definition he is a known radical. His actions and public statements back up that statement.

Pajamas Media Ground Zero Imam: 'I Don't Believe in Religious Dialogue' (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/ground-zero-imam-i-dont-believe-in-religious-dialogue/)

I have Muslim friends, they know better than push their religion on me, and I'm not one to push mine on them....but some things are just NOT open for discussion. Such as the IRA building a memorial to its dead right across from Buckingham Palace, A memorial to the Memory of Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City, etc... all intended to be an In-your-face reminder of what has happened in the past, and not in a good way.


I'm not sure how much credence I'll give "Pajama Media" but I'll certainly continue to watch the issue and see what the Immam is up to.

The Cordoba Initiative web site recently scrubbed a pix of Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf Iranian together with Mohammad Javad Larijani ,secretary-general of Iran's High Council for Human Rights; at an event that the Initiative sponsored in Malaysia in 2008.Larijani is sent by the Mahdi-Hatter to the UN to defend Iran's human rights record... You ,know stoning ,murder of protesters by the thousands ;religious persecution.

Meanwhile Rauf has disappeared since he began his "outreach" trip for the State Dept. Only one US Embassy in the ME will confirm they expect him to be there this month (the US embassy in Bahrain has confirmed he is expected on Aug. 19). His mission otherwise has been pretty hush hush . Is he collecting funds on the taxpayer's time ?

I'm not sure how much credence I'll give "Pajama Media" but I'll certainly continue to watch the issue and see what the Immam is up to.Well, its not just them... it was the easiest reference to find in a few minutes of looking. But all of that information has been announced in other sources... such as FOX news ETC. Just so you know its NOT obscure or little known. And its not a site I have even visted before... it just contained all the information I have heard on talk radio by others who have done in-depth research. So that's why I linked it.

I'm not sure how much credence I'll give "Pajama Media" but I'll certainly continue to watch the issue and see what the Immam is up to.

Pajama Media is generally pretty credible . However ,they are a better site when the host author is named.

Best one I've heard so far was Sheik Yourbooty.

Theme song by KC and the Sharia Band? Will they be dancing to "M-m-m-my Sharia?"

Excon: You should not presume that Smoothy is someone who does not "like the Constitution".Hello again, Rick:

Just for clarification sake, I DON'T, at all, think smoothy hates his country or dislikes his Constitution. I really said that tongue in cheek, cause I get accused of it all the time. When discussions get heated, it seems the other side resorts to that accusation. It's NOT one usually heard from my side. That's because, like I said, we don't believe it. I'm afraid, though, the other side really DOES believe that people like me, hate their country.

excon

Hello again, Rick:

Just for clarification sake, I DON'T, at all, think smoothy hates his country or dislikes his Constitution. I really said that tongue in cheek, cause I get accused of it all the time. When discussions get heated, it seems the other side resorts to that accusation. It's NOT one usually heard from my side. That's because, like I said, we don't believe it. I'm afraid, though, the other side really DOES believe that people like me, hate their country.

exconMore generalisations... from the left who wish to legislate their agenda from the Bench, since no laws exist or constitutional provisions support their agenda they wish to impose on everyone againsrt the wishes of the majority of the population.

Funny How the Obama administration is spending millions to rebuild Mosques around the world, yet not one dime is spent on decaying Christian Cathedrals. Funny how Chistians get no defense of their rights from the left... yet we hear about the RIGHTS Muslims have to build a Memorial to the 9/11 Terrorists near Ground Zero. And they Were Muslims... and their actions were applauded very vigorously in most of the Muslim world on and after 9/11.

I have yet to hear exactly where in the Constitution that Muslims have the Right to build any Memorial parading as a Mosque anywhere they want. Disragardign pubilic sentiment and laws to the contrary. Especially when Christians can't Celecbrate Christmas or have a group prayer at any event... or even place a Christmas Tree at christmas without a protest from the very same people that support the Manhattan Terrorist memorial.

Obama is a Muslim... and he said so in his own autobiography (thus his own words)even if he publicly claims otherwise for political expediency. No wonder Obama supports it.

Theme song by KC and the Sharia Band? Will they be dancing to "M-m-m-my Sharia?"

How about Donnie (bin) Iris Ah! Sharia!

Obama is a Muslim...and he said so in his own autobiography (thus his own words)even if he publically claims otherwise for political expediency. No wonder Obama supports it.Hello again, smoothy:

You forgot the most important one... He wasn't BORN here.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

You forgot the most important one... He wasn't BORN here.

excon

Did you or did you not read HIS Autobiography... I guess not, because OBAMA did made that statement (that he is a muslim) in his autobiography, which by definition, is about him, written by him or it wouldn't be an autobiography.

I have yet to hear exactly where in the Constitution that Muslims have the Right to build any Memorial parading as a Mosque anywhere they want.Hello again, smoothy:

Like I told Rick earlier, you like your Constitution. You just haven't read much of it. Take a look. The First Amendment should be enough. Here's the important part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

It's pretty straightforward to me. Please tell me why Muslims shouldn't have that right?

excon

Did you or did you not read HIS Autobiography.....I guess not, because OBAMA did made that statement (that he is a muslim) in his autobiography, which by definition, is about him, written by him or it wouldn't be an autobiography.
Please quote that part, or at least tell me the page number. And from Dreams or Audacity?

. Please tell me why Muslims shouldn't have that right?

excon

Hi, Ex.

Why don't Christians? Why don't Jews? Why can't I?

Simple answer: Frivolous lawsuits

Hello again, Cats:

I missed the part about Jews not being able to practice their religion freely. Christians either, and you too. Where am I wrong? Isn't this America?

Hell, you can even pray to JESUS on national TV at NASCAR races, and I'm the only one who complains about it. That sounds pretty free to me.

excon

Hello again, Cats:

I missed the part about Jews not being able to practice their religion freely. Christians either, and you too. Where am I wrong? Isn't this America?

Hell, you can even pray to JESUS on national TV at NASCAR races, and I'm the only one who complains about it. That sounds pretty free to me.

excon

But if a Christmas Scene or a Manora is visible from a public thoroughfare, the property owner can be sued and have it confiscated by the Sheriff. If I wished to draw a hex sign on my front lawn I can be committed, or at least detained for evaluation.

But if a Christmas Scene or a Manora is visible from a public thoroughfare the property owner can be sued and have it confiscated by the Sheriff. Hello again, Cats:

Not here in this country, Cats. You are allowed to put any religious scene on your own property in full view of ANY road. So can your neighbor, and so can I. If you have a sheriff who's doing that, sue him for violating your civil rights.

But, I don't think that happens in your town. Even dumb county sheriff's know about the First Amendment... Or, at least we HOPE they do.

excon

Please quote that part, or at least tell me the page number. And from Dreams or Audacity?I have an electronic version someplace... that does not always relate to a printed page as far as page numbers go. Being I have over 40 terrabytes of datat (yes TERRABYTES) on my home computer network... I don't know exactly where it is at this moment.

However he did also let it slip during a covered interview on Sept 7 2008.

Obama slips on TV: 'My Muslim faith' (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=74635) so its NOT just in print... as much as his minnions wish to bury the subject. Along with all his supposed College records... records as senator in Illinois etc... why he and his wife lost their law licenses etc.

Incidentally... name ANY other Christian that has attended a Madras... which is a Islamic Religious school, not open to infedels as they call the rest of us.

Barack Obama did not "lose" his law license. He voluntarily surrendered his law license back in 2008 because he wasn't using it, nor did he plan to use it in the near future. I did the same thing with my state teaching certificate. I no longer teach school and allowed it to expire. I'm a professional counselor but never took the test and paid the $150 for a state license. The counseling I do doesn't demand a license, nor do I receive payment from clients' insurance companies. I'm still a bona fide counselor but have no license, just as Barack Obama is a lawyer but has no license.

Barack Obama did not "lose" his law license after going to college so long and passing the bar evenually.. He voluntarily surrendered his law license back in 2008 because he wasn't using it, nor did he plan to use it in the near future. I did the same thing with my state teaching certificate. I no longer teach school and allowed it to expire. I'm a professional counselor but never took the test and paid the $150 for a state license. The counseling I do doesn't demand a license, nor do I receive payment from clients' insurance companies. I'm still a bona fide counselor but have no license, just as Barack Obama is a lawyer but has no license.You don't voluntarily "Surrender" a law license unless you are ready to get it suspended. And didn't want it to be able to be suspended. And he isn't a bona-fide lawyer... you can not practice law anywhere in the USA claiming to be a lawyer if you hold no license ot practice law. That's no different than a "Doctor" treating patients without a license to practice medicine.

And that a world of difference from counceling. You won't go to jail for doing what you do without it. Besides... what proof does Obama have he ever really practiced law... can anyone quote several cases he has ever presided over in front of a Judge? We all know the answer to that one... the answer is none. After all he got a free ride at taxpayer expense for having the right skin color. Not because he earned the privilege. After all, he practically failed out of College. Why else would he spend millions hiding all of his records from the public if it wasn't to hide something he didn't want public. Same with all the Messiahs other records. What's behind all the secrecy of his past... his records. What's he hiding from the public and why aren't the democrats up in arms over it. Or is it a double standard. I'd like to see every future republican candidate do the same and when liberal reporters cry about it... claim they were fine when Obama did it, so shut up and deal with it.

And incidentally why are the results of his BAR exams secret? Was it that it took the "Smartest President ever" over 10 tries to pass it? Or MORE?

You don't voluntarily "Surrender" a law license unless you are ready to get it suspended. and didn't want it to be able to be suspended. Well that's wrong. My wife is a lawyer. A few of her classmates got their degree, articled but never joined a law firm to practice law, It happens more often than you think. They then have no need to pay the license or insurance but you will always be a lawyer, just non-practicing. Should you wish to go back to practice you'll likely have to write the bar exam again.

Gettysburg PA is having a similar discussion about putting casinos near battlefields and burial grounds. I realize that there is no "Freedom of Casinos" in the constitution but Obama inadvertently raised a good point (inadvertently is about the only way he could raise a good point).
He said the constitution allowed it but he wouldn't comment on the wisdom of it. If the light turned green, would you Go--even if a tractor trailer was bearing down on you at 75mph? Why not--the law is on your side. We will continue to make fatal mistakes in the U.S. so long as we ignore common sense and wisdom because some genius interprets something enacted 234 years ago and assumes the writers could have anticipated the situations we encounter today. The bad guys are still laughing in the caves.

You don't voluntarily "Surrender" a law license unless you are ready to get it suspended. and didn't want it to be able to be suspended. And he isn't a bona-fide lawyer
Of course, he's a bona fide lawyer. He is as much a lawyer as I'm a teacher. We both went to college to learn how to be something, and we both graduated and are entitled to call ourselves lawyer or teacher.

because some genius interprets something enacted 234 years ago and assumes the writers could have anticipated the situations we encounter today. The bad guys are still laughing in the caves.Hello smear:

You think religious discrimination is new? You think the founders didn't understand it? You think they didn't experience it? You think it's different today than it was then?

Think again.

excon

PS> What amazes me throughout this entire discussion, is how quickly Americans will throw their Constitution overboard.

we ignore common sense and wisdom because some genius interprets something enacted 234 years ago and assumes the writers could have anticipated the situations we encounter today. The bad guys are still laughing in the caves.
Sort of like with the Bible, written so long ago. The writers didn't have a clue what the world would be like in 2010, so we don't have to give it much credence, right?

The thing is that the FoundingFathers referenced Islam specifically when they were talking about religious freedoms. It is easily referenced .
But smearcase' and the President's point (after he flipped on the issue) about the wisdom of building the mosque there cannot be dismissed as throwing the Constitution overboard.
There is a BIG difference between the right to build ,and should it happen .It is the difference between Obama the professor making a debating point in law school or Obama the President . On Friday he tried to make it a "teachable moment "... on Saturday ,after realizing he made a blunder by not making the distinction,he corrected himself.

There is a lot of posturing going on .The only leadership I've seen is from Governor Patterson.

The big losers so far are the President ,Mayor Bloomy ,and Harry Reid... who threw the President under the bus after the President recently went out of his way to attend a Nevada fundraiser for Reid.

There is a BIG difference between the right to build ,and should it happen Hello again, tom:

If given the choice between criticizing a citizen for seeking his rights, or supporting the Constitution that grants them, I'll pick the Constitution every time. In this great democracy of ours, it is NEVER wrong for a citizen to seek to be free.

That idea is what this country is founded upon. It's a fragile idea. It's like a candle in the wind. Don't let it go out.

excon

Well that's wrong. My wife is a lawyer. A few of her classmates got their degree, articled but never joined a law firm to practice law, It happens more often than you think. They then have no need to pay the license or insurance but you will always be a lawyer, just non-practicing. Should you wish to go back to practice you'll likely have to write the bar exam again.

So. Lawyers in your area are so underpaid they can't afford to maintain their law license that would require taking a BAR exam AGAIN to get back? I think its time you move here, they are overpaid around this area. That's is no minor thing. Its Akin to taking and passing a First Class Radiotelepone License. Or an Electricaian turning his license in because he took a different job temporarily. No small thing to pass, and if you are not either fresh out of college or working heavily in that field something you would not pass down the road.

Have you ever turned in your Drivers License because you didn't have a car for a short period?

That's a real lame excuse to defend Obama and his actions. And we all know you are one of his supporters. In fact I talked to one of the Lawyers I know locally at a dinner about that a month or so ago on that topic... they said why would or should they turn in their license, it doesn't cost much to maintain and its hard to get back.

I just heard the actual story on this on the radio this morning and thought I'd chime in.

The Anti-Defamation League also made a similar comment that building the mosque may be legal but extremely insensitive to do so.
This is the kind of stuff I heard on the radio, and I have to say that it's just as insensitive to prevent the mosque from ever being built. I really am sick of hearing the terms sensitivity and tolerance.

I believe that the non-Muslims (gentiles?) protesting the construction in this case secretly don't support the construction of any mosque, but given this circumstance, it gives people a really good reason to vocalize their opposition to Islam and still act as if they're "tolerant". It'd be nice if people stopped repressing their emotions and just pick a side; you support all religious freedom or stand firmly against all of it. Or in this case, you stand against Islam or be on board with it 100% of the time.

One thing is for damn sure, once that mosque is built it's going to be a target for "hate cimes" by the folks who are pissed off by this. And it should be expected that NYPD officers who lost buddies in 9/11 to look the other way should this mosque ever take a hit. Ethically, this has bad news written all over it, but legally, they got a right and that can't be argued.

Well you have to consider they might have a legal right to build it only if the following conditions are met... #1 Zoning... they would have to have the Zoning changed, #2 Tax exemption on the property... they aren't automatically entitled to get off scott free if its not approved for local government reasons. And #3 Building Permits... those are not a legal right, and have to pass muster in most communities before they would be granted, and most cases they are subject to community review and need approval of surrounding landowners and residents. And #4, New York is a heavily Union area... this HAS to be build by Union Labor who may refuse to do the work for very valid reasons... and we are talking multiple Unions.

While everyone might have a legal right to have a CHANCE to build something... there is no legal right to actually do it. Everyone INCLUDING Muslims have to follow the same approval processes everyone else has to deal with. And in many cases request are denied for any number of reasons.

Why are Muslims exempt from this? What makes them special and above the law. You can't plop a Church just anyplace you want without jumping a lot of hurdles. Why should they be able to do that with a Mosque that's not even being paid for by Americans, and incidentally WHO is paying for this anyway? Osama Bin Laden? I haven't seen any investigation into if this money is coming from Heroin producers, terrorists, North Korea, or by any legitimate sources.

I believe that the non-Muslims (gentiles?) protesting the construction in this case secretly don't support the construction of any mosque, but given this circumstance, it gives people a really good reason to vocalize their opposition to Islam and still act as if they're "tolerant".

Can't speak for all. But I for one have no problems with a mosque being built almost anywhere else. In fact ,I would've objected even less to this one if the proposal hadn't given away their motivation in the name they initially gave it .

The people like Mayor Bloomy who profess tolerance are in denial about political Islamism/jihadism .The construction of a mosque at the site of a victory is a political act and not a religious one .


One thing is for damn sure, once that mosque is built it's going to be a target for "hate cimes" by the folks who are pissed off by this. And it should be expected that NYPD officers who lost buddies in 9/11 to look the other way should this mosque ever take a hit.

I disagree totally with this statement . The NYC police and fire depts will do their job as required in a professional manner.

However, given the fact that they are expected to protect the site ;as with every other project in the area ,they have and should have input. Given the fact that all the other projects in the area have been tied up for most of a decade over various red tape issues ,I find it curious that this one appears to be on a fast track.

If you think us non-Muslims should lose our 1st Amendment rights to protest ;perhaps the words of a patriotic Muslim should be considered .


For Muslims, Ramadan is a spiritual month of fasting, prayer and self-reflection. It is an intense mental and physical experience that is a symbolic equalizer of every part of humanity, rich and poor, educated and uneducated.

We embark on this year's fast during increasingly challenging and divisive times.

Since last Ramadan, Nidal Hasan is accused of massacring 13 at Fort Hood and Umar Abdulmutallab is accused of trying to blow up a plane on Christmas Day. Faisal Shahzad is accused of terrorizing Times Square only to later tell America that he was a proud "Muslim soldier." And now, President Obama has weighed in, or not, on the growing controversy over the proposed mosque and Islamic center near Ground Zero.

The president has fundamentally misunderstood the stakes and the sentiments of the American people. Opposition to a mammoth Islamic center near Ground Zero is not about religious freedom, it is about the significance of Ground Zero to the American psyche.

The president's admonishment on religious freedom will play on Islamist media as a lecture to the American people. With almost 70 percent of Americans opposing this center, his focus has directly fed the false Islamist narrative that most Americans want a war against Islam and Muslims.

The reality is that the impression many leading American Muslim groups leave of Islam can only be described as narcissistic spirituality. They obsess about what "we need," "I want," or what "you are doing to us." It's about what others should do for them, underlined by a demand for political correctness.

They seem to be indifferent to the feelings and needs of the majority of America, Muslim or non-Muslim.

The president is just parroting that rather than leading.

Many major Muslim groups deny any responsibility for the reforms needed to stop radicals. Instead, they obsess on victimization, make belligerent demands, and wrap themselves in the First Amendment.

This $100 million political structure is a demand that is wrong in many ways, but especially for Muslims in America.

Our spiritual journey of Ramadan is about admitting that we want equality, not special privileges. It is now that we refocus our children on what it means to put our needs a distant third to God and to those who need us, like our nation.

Our priorities need to be self-repair and humble spirituality. Introspection and humility are the only way to treat America's perception of Islam.

Islam taught me to focus on "my responsibilities," "my role as an American" and "my moral and Islamic obligations to reform" and separate mosque and state.

Denial is the tool of the narcissist. Islamists insist that they are misunderstood. But it is they who misunderstand America and ignore the pre-modern ideologies that permeate many interpretations of Islam.

So this Ramadan, I propose we focus on some core humanitarian values. Let us spend a week on each. First, we need to lift the principles of the U.S. Constitution and its Establishment Clause over any other legal system, including Shariah.

Second, we need to celebrate our devotion to American nationalism and its universal equality "under God."

Third, let us celebrate modernity and the Enlightenment and the hard work we have yet to do to bring Islamic thought into this era.

Last, let us focus on Quranic scripture and realize passages that need reinterpretation.

Our major holiday at the end of Ramadan will fall the day before the ninth anniversary of 9/11. May the lessons of Ramadan this year end with every imam asking Muslims to step away from tribal whims and demands and step towards genuine reform and the separation of mosque and state.

M. Zuhdi Jasser is founder and president of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy based in Phoenix. Reach him at [email protected].

Divisive debate on Ground Zero (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2010/08/17/20100817jasser17.html#ixzz0wxiyD300)

Hello again, smoothy:

Like I told Rick earlier, you like your Constitution. You just haven't read much of it. Take a look. The First Amendment should be enough. Here's the important part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

It's pretty straightforward to me. Please tell me why Muslims shouldn't have that right?

excon

Congress cannot make a law, but apparently local governments can.
Pro-lifers to Challenge Prayer Ban on Walkway in Front of Planned Parenthood (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/aug/10080301.html)

Activists Score Major First Amendment and Pro-Life Victory in Washington, D.C. - Christian Newswire (http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/4751814681.html)

If you think us non-Muslims should lose our 1st Amendment rights to protest ;perhaps the words of a patriotic Muslim should be considered .Hello again, tom:

This is the THIRD time, by my count, that you have accused those of us, who support the imam, as people who ALSO support the LOSS of your First Amendment rights to protest against it. Where in the hell are you getting that from? The same place smoothy gets his facts?? Dude!

excon

Sounds to me like it's time for those of us in this thread to sit in the shade with a few cold ones, avoid discussion of politics or religion and just have a good time.

Your place or mine? :)

Hello again, tom:

This is the THIRD time, by my count, that you have accused those of us, who support the imam, as people who ALSO support the LOSS of your First Amendment rights to protest against it. Where in the hell are you getting that from? The same place smoothy gets his facts???? Dude!

excon

And I have been accused more than once of being against the 1st amendment for protesting the placement of the mosque. Where do you get that from ?

Congress cannot make a law, but apparently local governments can. Hello again, Rick:

NO, they can't. But, it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that GOVERNMENT thinks it CAN. That's why we have to be diligent against them, and not give them an INCH. I APPLAUD your pro lifers for seeking THEIR First Amendment rights, just like I applaud ANYONE who does that. Dissent is very patriotic.

No, I don't agree with their motives... What the HELL do motives have to do with Constitutional rights? That IS the central theme in this thread, isn't it? You should have Constitutional rights UNLESS I don't agree with your motives?? That ain't the way we do things here.

excon

I'm in full agreement with you. I was just pointing out that the Constitution only says that Congress cannot make a law. It does not prohibit local governments from making laws.

We've all seen the Constitution interpreted in many different ways over the years. I love that we have it, but I hate that it is so open to the interpretations of whoever is in power at the time.

The founding fathers had slaves but now we say slavery is not legal.

The founding fathers did not agree with abortion on demand for any reason but now it's OK.

The founding fathers knew the value of carrying a loaded weapon but now that right has been severely limited and even prohibited in some states.

The list goes on and on.

@smoothy
You're getting into local law, I don't know jack about that, New York is the most litigious state in the nation, no doubt they'll have to do the red-tape dance to even start planning for this mosque. When I said they had the right, I meant freedom of religion. But, I'll stop arguing the legal battle because it's bound to get confusing.

@tom
You can protest, I never said you can't.

All I really wanted to say was my theory that this is just an opportunistic and acceptable way to vocalize opposition to Islam that everyone had but kept quiet about. It's like the surgeon who chose that career because he's actually sadist and loves to cut people.

and I have been accused more than once of being against the 1st amendment for protesting the placement of the mosque. Where do you get that from ?Hello again, tom:

It's quite simple. I've been saying it from the start. Everyone on your side says this: "I agree with their right to build it, BUT....."

If you EMBRACE the Constitution, there are NO buts. If you BELIEVE in the concepts outlined the Constitution, there are no buts. If you understand the reasons for our founding, there are no buts. If you believe that freedom is for EVERYBODY, there are no buts. And, there are especially, no lists.

As simple as I think it is, you don't. I haven't convinced you in ten years of the rightness of my ways, and I don't think I ever will.

excon

I'm in full agreement with you. I was just pointing out that the Constitution only says that Congress cannot make a law. It does not prohibit local governments from making laws.Hello Rick:

Yes it does. You're right, though, in that the Bill of Rights all by itself, only prohibits the FEDS from preying on its citizens. But, the Fourteenth Amendment took care of that bit of housecleaning...

Here's what it says: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

That clause, basically tells the states that the Bill of Rights applies to them too.

excon

I haven't convinced you in ten years of the rightness of my ways, and I don't think I ever will
Correct you won't . Because it is not simply a matter of they have a right to build it therefore it should be built. The right to build has not been in dispute .

All I really wanted to say was my theory that this is just an opportunistic and acceptable way to vocalize opposition to Islam that everyone had but kept quiet about.
Stick around ;I have hardly been quite on the subject.
You said that you suspect that I oppose the building of all mosques ;and that is simply not the case .Then you implied that my opposition to it implicates me of being intolerant .

There is a continuous over the top theme in this thread (and also the arguments of Bloomberg and the President before he revised his comments ) that those who oppose it are against 1st amendment religious freedoms. It is not true ;an unfounded smear.

Hello Rick:

Yes it does. You're right, though, in that the Bill of Rights all by itself, only prohibits the FEDS from preying on its citizens. But, the Fourteenth Amendment took care of that bit of housecleaning...

Here's what it says: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

That clause, basically tells the states that the Bill of Rights applies to them too.

excon

But that does not cover cities or townships or municipalities or even homeowner associations, right?

But that does not cover cities or townships or municipalities or even homeowner associations, right?Hello again, Rick:

Yes, it does. It covers EVERY government agency. Even HOA's, in some jurisdictions, have been declared quasi-governmental agencies (which they are), and have been ordered to follow "due process" of law.

excon

@smoothy
You're getting into local law, I don't know jack about that, New York is the most litigious state in the nation, no doubt they'll have to do the red-tape dance to even start planning for this mosque. When I said they had the right, I meant freedom of religion. But, I'll stop arguing the legal battle because it's bound to get confusing.



I'm not very familiar with New York City law either, only to a small degree... and you are correct. I've heard getting anything actually done there takes major amounts of patience and perseverance.

But we can argue against it being built. It IS our constitutional right under the First amendment. And there is no exemption for Muslims or Mosques anywhere in the Constitution. And as I did mention. Construction can be blocked for anything without a need for anything to be against the law or code, just objections from neighbors. Remember the NIMBY acronym.

Hello again, Rick:

Yes, it does. It covers EVERY government agency. Even HOA's, in some jurisdictions, have been declared quasi-governmental agencies (which they are), and have been ordered to follow "due process" of law.

excon

That is your interpretation. And I wish it were true but clearly it is not. It says Congress in one place and States in another... but it does not say cities, townships, etc... so we just have to live with that and fight it when local governments and agencies try to make laws that we believe are unconstitutional.

The right to build has not been in dispute . Hello again, tom:

What IS in dispute then. Should this ONE guy NOT do what the Constitution says he can do? No?? And, he shouldn't do it because YOU don't think he should? He shouldn't do it because MOST people don't think he should?? Really??

Do you view YOUR Constitutional rights the same way?? Are you are THAT cavalier about them?? Nahhh. You ain't.

I don't think you should own a gun. I think it's HIGHLY insensitive that you do. I'll bet I can find a MAJORITY of Americans who agree with me too. You going to throw out your guns?? HELL no you're not! Who're you trying to kid?

excon

Hello again, tom:

What IS in dispute then. Should this ONE guy NOT do what the Constitution says he can do? No??? And, he shouldn't do it because YOU don't think he should? He shouldn't do it because MOST people don't think he should???? Really???

Do you view YOUR Constitutional rights the same way???? Are you are THAT cavalier about them??? Nahhh. You ain't.

I don't think you should own a gun. I think it's HIGHLY insensitive that you do. I'll bet I can find a MAJORITY of Americans who agree with me too. You gonna throw out your guns???? HELL no you're not! Who're you trying to kid?

excon

Hypothetically lets say legally someone could open a gay bar on the lot next to your house... Or a Dirty book store that's open 24 hours and did plan to do it.

Do you have the right to object to it? And why is that any different?

Assume You are say, a black Church... and the KKK wants to open a club next door to you. Flags, gas fired cross and all, do they have the right do do it? A Mosque next to ground zero is NO different that that would be.

Hypothetically lets say legally someone could open a gay bar on the lot next to your house....Or a Dirty book store thats open 24 hours and did plan to do it.

Do you have the right to object to it? And why is that any different?

Yes we have the right to object. This is often how local zoning and licensing laws change in many areas.

Yes we have the right to object. This is often how local zoning and licensing laws change in many areas.

And that is the point I was making. We DO have the right to block anything being built. Dirty book store or Mosque... even a Church which is frequently the case.

I'll bet I can find a MAJORITY of Americans who agree with me too.


Hi, Ex.

I'll take 20 bucks of that action. A majority of Americans disapprove of gun ownership? Doubtful.

Hi, Ex.

I'll take 20 bucks of that action. A majority of Americans disapprove of gun ownership? Doubtful.

Exactly, only a majority of Democrats that think criminals have a constitutional right to not be shot and killed during a home robbery seem to believe that way.

I know Washington DC was one place that did and has charged homeowners with attempted murder for shooting and armed robber INSIDE their own home. But the criminal with a gun they legally could not own as a convicted felon was charged with a misdemeaner.

Luckily in most cases the Jury saw it differently.


Just one of many reasons you could not pay me to live in DC.

As a Virginian, I have the right to open carry a handgun or apply for a permit for Concieled carry (and get it) and even gasp... shoot and kill any sob that I catch breaking into my house... and not get charged with it.

Here you are allowed to defend yourself, your property and your family from criminals.

And nobody is "Alledgedly" robbing your house at 2 am. If I didn't invite them in... they are guilty of doing it and I can take any and all steps I deam necessary to defend myself, my property and my family. Up to and including lethal force.

A dead robber never repeats his crime again and never comes back for vengeance.

Hypothetically lets say legally someone could open a gay bar on the lot next to your house....Or a Dirty book store thats open 24 hours and did plan to do it.

Do you have the right to object to it? And why is that any different?Hello again, smoothy:

Assuming they met local zoning and building codes, I could certainly object, as you have here. Nobody suggested you didn't have a voice. But a voice is all it is. An opinion. You're welcome to it. But, as you said, it's LEGAL. Government ISN'T going to DO a thing about it. Nor should they?

Aren't you for a free market? If I didn't like the peep show next door, I could move. I don't want the government to solve all my problems... You don't, do you, as a small government tea partier, want the government to intrude on gay bars and dirty book stores??

excon

Exactly, only a majority of Democrats that think criminals have a constitutional right to not be shot and killed during a home robbery seem to believe that way.Hello again, smoothy and you too Cats:

You miss the point. A majority of people liking it, or not, DOESN'T change your right to own a gun. You HAVE that right. You HAVE it because you're a sovereign citizen of these United States. NOBODY can take it away from you. NOBODY. There's NO DOUBT that you believe it, too. You believe it, because it's TRUE. You don't CARE if it's insensitive, either. In fact, you're clearly PROUD that it IS. I don't blame you. That's FINE with me. You don't have to make excuses to ANYBODY about your motives for seeking your RIGHTS.

excon

Hello again, smoothy and you too Cats:

You miss the point. A majority of people liking it, or not, DOESN'T change your right to own a gun. You HAVE that right. You HAVE it because you're a soverign citizen of these United States. NOBODY can take it away from you. NOBODY. There's NO DOUBT that you believe it, too. You believe it, because it's TRUE. You don't CARE if it's insensitive, either. In fact, you're clearly PROUD that it IS. I don't blame you. That's FINE with me. You don't have to make excuses to ANYBODY about your motives for seeking your RIGHTS.

excon

Enjoy them while you can, Ex. If your guy Barry (can't say boy in this case) gets re-elected, odds are you won't have as many, such as what to buy with your own money.

The Muslims WILL call it the Mohammed ATTAH memorial Mosque....and it WILL be a pillgramage point for all radical Muslims if its #1 allowed to be built, and #2 nobody burns it down if it is.

And it IS and would be a in your FACE America swipe since so many in the Muslim world...INCLUDING the Palestinians that celebrated in the streets on 9/11. Many of us have not forgotten videos of those celebrations across the Muslim world that day.

What part of that the people who think it should be allowed do they not grasp?

believe me we the muslims also feel sad for 9/11.we are against who is responsible for this act.they will pay for theis sin inshAllah

What part of that the people who think it should be allowed do they not grasp?
Certainly not the Constitution of the United States.

What a fantastic country we are that we can rise above pettiness and stay true to our Constitution!

believe me we the muslims also feel sad for 9/11.we are against who is responsible for this act.they will pay for theis sin inshAllah

Salaam Alaykum, Mehreen. It is nice to hear from a Muslim in this thread.

Hello again, smoothy:

Assuming they met local zoning and building codes, I could certainly object, as you have here. Nobody suggested you didn't have a voice. But a voice is all it is. An opinion. You're welcome to it. But, as you said, it's LEGAL. Government ISN'T going to DO a thing about it. Nor should they?

Aren't you for a free market? If I didn't like the peep show next door, I could move. I don't want the government to solve all my problems... You don't, do you, as a small government tea partier, want the government to intrude on gay bars and dirty book stores???

excon

As a home owner I have the right to have a say in what goes into my neighborhood. EVEN IF Zoneing etc would otherwise allow the business. Doesn't matter WHAT it is... if it is disruptive to the morals of the commumnity they have a right to block it. Even IF the legal right exists for it to exist technically. Porn store, Mosque, Church or Doctors Office... doesn't matter.

Why is this as-yet-unbuilt building called a mosque? It won't look like a mosque with turrets and domes; it will look like most of the buildings in NYC. It will be open to the community as a meeting place, as a gym, as an activity center. In fact, it will be a healthy replacement for a derelict, unoccupied building in an area of such buildings, therefore a rejuvenation of the neighborhood.

believe me we the muslims also feel sad for 9/11.we are against who is responsible for this act.they will pay for theis sin inshAllah

And hopefully they will. I know not all Muslims (and maybe not even most) were Cheering that day... but there were far too many that were, and did so on Television. The criticism of them (the people celibrating in the streets) by their Fellow muslims was very sadly absent for a very long time.

How would Muslims feel if we built a Church in Medina, or Mecca... and why? 9/11 was committed by Islamic Extremists, and there are a lot of those in the world. A Mosque built THERE would automatically be a memorial to those terrorists as much as many Muslims would wish it wasn't.

It's a Symbol and it would be a symbol right next to a location of a terrorist act. Those can not be changed. New York City has many Mosques... Mecca and Medina have how many? How about any number of cities in Muslim nations for example.

Its not about the Only Mosque in New York City being blocked from being built. Its just this one and just at this location. There are many others that have no issues.

And the fact that the Imam wanting to do this making Anti-American claims that we in any way shared blame for 9/11 does not help things at all.

Hitlers Grave is unmarked so NeoNazis could not use it as a symbol of their movement.

The Islamic Extremeists would use that Mosque if its ever built as a rallying point and a point of pride for their actions.

Some things are just simply a bad idea.

Also notice... I do differentiate between Muslims and Islamic Extreemists. Even though Both are the same faith.

The Islamic Extremeists would use that Mosque is its ever built as a rallying point and a point of pride for their actions.
They will? Mosque? It will be a tall building like many of the buildings in NYC.

The very fact that we are a free nation and allow such a thing says reams about us as a people.

Why is this as-yet-unbuilt building called a mosque? It won't look like a mosque with turrets and domes; it will look like most of the buildings in NYC. It will be open to the community as a meeting place, as a gym, as an activity center. In fact, it will be a healthy replacement for a derelict, unoccupied building in an area of such buildings, therefore a rejuvenation of the neighborhood.

A church doesn''t have to be a classic Cathedral... and a Mosque doesn't have to have all those items either.

They are simply places of worship... some more garish than others. And in the right place a symbol of Memorial to Terrorits that accomplished their task such as this one.

A church doesn''t have to be a classic Cathedral....and a Mosque doesn't have to have all those items either.

They are simply places of worship....some more garish than others. And in the right place a symbol of Memorial to Terrorits that accomplished their task such as this one.
Its primary purpose is not as a mosque. If it is, then you believe the mosque in the Pentagon should be relocated?

It is not a memorial to terrorists.

They will? Mosque? It will be a tall building like many of the buildings in NYC.

The very fact that we are a free nation and allow such a thing says reams about us as a people.

A Mosque at ground Zero erected by Muslims WILL be a memorial to the Muslims (technically Islamic Extremeists) that Killed thousands on 9/11.

That is a swipe at all Americans... and a tribute towards the 9/11 terrorists. Sorry but that says nothing good about anyone that suggests it be allowed.


What next... Do you support a Memorial to Timothy McViegh across the street from the building he blew up in Oklahoma?

How about NeoNazis building a tribute to Adolph Hitler next to the Holocaust Museum in DC? That would be different exactly how?


Like they say in Realestate... its not WHAT you build... its all about WHERE you build it.

Its primary purpose is not as a mosque. If it is, then you believe the mosque in the Pentagon should be relocated?

It is not a memorial to terrorists.

Really you can prove this how... you can guarantee what radical Islamiists do across the world how.

It WILL be a memorial to the 9/11 terrorists, and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do or say that will change that.

THere is a doctorine is Islam that calls for them to build Mosques at the sites of conquest or victory. That is exactly what this is.

A Mosque at ground Zero erected by Muslims WILL be a memorial to the Muslims (technically Islamic Extremeists) that Killed thousands on 9/11.
That's in YOUR mind.

That is a swipe at all Americans... and a tribute towards the 9/11 terrorists. Sorry but that says nothing good about anyone that suggests it be allowed.
So you are saying I am a bad person for saying it should be allowed.

What next... Do you support a Memorial to Timothy McViegh across the street from the building he blew up in Oklahoma?
How about NeoNazis building a tribute to Adolph Hitler next to the Holocaust Museum in DC?
Are these proposed? By whom?

That would be different exactly how?
What about the Japanese Cultural Center in Hawaii? No one is objecting to that.

So... a Christian church in the South is now a memorial to the KKK members who committed atrocities against blacks?

Or a Christian church at Auschwitz is a memorial to Nazis, not those that suffered under the Nazi Christian regime?

Blaming ALL Muslims for the events of 9/11 is like blaming ALL Christians for the atrocities of the Holocaust, the KKK, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades and the witch burnings.

Please--get real.

I'd love to see the entire perimeter of Ground Zero surrounded with religious buildings, to every religion you could think of--INCLUDING Islam.

Freedom of Religion is the freedom of ALL religions, not just those you agree with.

Its primary purpose is not as a mosque. If it is, then you believe the mosque in the Pentagon should be relocated?

It is not a memorial to terrorists.THis is a Mosque. THe Imam want to build it says it's a Mosque... the people fighting for it calls it a mosque... the people fighting against it call it a Mosque. You alone are arguing a Islamic Place of worship ISN'T called a Mosque.

That's in YOUR mind.

So you are saying I am a bad person for saying it should be allowed.

Are these proposed? By whom?

What about the Japanese Cultural Center in Hawaii? No one is objecting to that.

Answers to the above comments..

#1 It clear to most people but you.

#2 If the shoe fits... but those were your words, not mine.

#3 Those are examples that you should be supporting should someone propose them.

#4 SO there is a memorial to the Japanese soldiers killed at Pearl harbor is located exactly WHERE in Pearl Harbor?


Incidentally... I can gather that you were nowhere near any of the terrorist targets that day much less inside one when it happened or shortly before.

You see... I was.

Ex, Many of the founders also had some strong feelings against certain religious groups in England. Would they have permitted the Church of England to take a strong presenece and establish power in the colonies or the newly formed government. You think they were talking about allowing new religious freedoms. I am a Christian but I think the fathers were also talking about safeguarding against religions having power over the citizens as had occurred in England, and religion causing destruction of democracy. I believe the muslims have a goal of destruction of democracy and have very openly stated it. The fathers went to war to prevent that essentially. They used "Common Sense". We use "Non-Sense"! Tolerance might be mistaken for cowardice in some instances. Here are the synonyms of tolerance:
Tolerance Synonyms, Tolerance Antonyms | Thesaurus.com (http://thesaurus.com/browse/tolerance)
Were we afforded any tolerance on 9/11?

A Mosque at ground Zero erected by Muslims
Wait a minute. Now you have the "mosque" AT Ground Zero? When did it get moved?

#1 It clear to most people but you.
I am not the only one.

#2 If the shoe fits... but those were your words, not mine.
I'm German-American. Are you going to blame me for WWII?

Incidentally... I can gather that you were nowhere near any of the terrorist targets that day much less inside one when it happened or shortly before.
And that has what to do with this discussion? You have absolutely NO idea of my connections with any of the targets, so you have no right to disrespect me with that comment.

Wait a minute. Now you have the "mosque" AT Ground Zero? When did it get moved?Bill Clinton is out of office. Nearby is close enough.

Bill Clinton is out of office. Nearby is close enough.
So better to put it three blocks away? In New Jersey? In Canada?

I am not the only one.

I'm German-American. Are you going to blame me for WWII?

And that has what to do with this discussion? You have absolutely NO idea of my connections with any of the targets, so you have no right to disrespect me with that comment.



I'm Half German too... and it's the Grandparents that came over before WW2. But it wasn't Budists that were responsible for 9/11 or most other terrorism.

Hey... YOU made the comment to start with... MOST people that are appologetic to the Terrorists are people that were NOT in Manhattan much less the Towers or even the Pentagon. We all know those on the Jet with the last one all died before that one could complete his task.

I am the one who has good reason to be offended. If it wasn't for an unusual gut feeling that I had to get out of there (not a remonition but I did want nothing more than to get out of there)... I would likely not be here holding this discussion with you now. I was IN the Pentagon that night, all night, and left not long before the area I was working was hit and burned. Some of the people I worked with died.

So unless you were actually INSIDE one of those three places yourself as I was... your connections are not quite as strong.

Hey... YOU made the comment to start with... MOST people that are appologetic to the Terrorists
Where do you read that I'm apologizing for the terrorists?

So unless you were actually INSIDE one of those three places yourself as I was... your connections are not quite as strong.
So unless I was in the Towers or the Pentagon at the time of the attack, I have nothing worthwhile to say?

How ecumenical ! I bet there will be all types of people from all religions in pick up basketball games and singing kum bay you in the cafateria afterwards! And Islamberg is a peaceful mountain community in the Catskill Mountain .

Every major news source is calling it a mosque .None dispute it will be anything else .Yes it is understood that in addition to a mosque they intend to have some kind of community center .
Mosques are located all over the world . Some have minarets and domes ,some are in apartment complexes... any edifice will do. When the call for prayer booms out of loudspeakers 6 times a day the people in the area will know that it's a mosque.

Where do you read that I'm apologizing for the terrorists?

So unless I was in the Towers or the Pentagon at the time of the attack, I have nothing worthwhile to say?

You are defending a Mosque that WILL be a defacto memorial for the 9/11 terrorists. There really isn't any middle ground. And if there is, it would literally fit IN the eye of a needle.

If you were not inside one of the three... you can't be lecturing someone that was about what they should think or feel. Its hard to put into words... but you have to actually have BEEN in that situation to understand it.

Soldiers with Combat experience know it all too well, victims of violent crime do too. It's a life altering experience. You will never view things exactly the same again.

You never saw unedited filmn from the attacks did you. They edited out the bodies of people jumping and falling. I kow somebody very well that was literally like two blocks away at that in the upper levels of building he was in, looking at it when it happened... he hasn't been able to work since after seening hundreds, not dozens of people fall to their death, some on fire many not.

And you can't fathom how sensitive I am about that topic. Actually in my line of work, my life essentually revolved around that for weeks afterwards as well. So there is a double whammy. Almost die... then have to deal with fixing the problems due to that event.

Smoothy, I just want to say that I'm so very sorry that you had to experience that. I can't imagine. Just the images on the news that day, and weeks later, made me sick, made me weep, broke my heart. If I had been there I would probably be in a padded cell sucking my thumb to this day.

I don't know much about Mosque's or what they represent, nor do I now a lot about the Muslim religion, so I cannot comment on Exy's topic.

If someone could explain, in a nutshell, what a mosque is, why it's erected, than perhaps I'll have something to contribute to this conversation. :)

Smoothy, I just want to say that I'm so very sorry that you had to experience that. I can't imagine. Just the images on the news that day, and weeks later, made me sick, made me weep, broke my heart. If I had been there I would probably be in a padded cell sucking my thumb to this day.

I don't know much about Mosque's or what they represent, nor do I now a lot about the Muslim religion, so I cannot comment on Exy's topic.

If someone could explain, in a nutshell, what a mosque is, why it's erected, than perhaps I'll have something to contribute to this conversation. :)

Completely changed the way I view everything. I was a LOT more happy go lucky before... I'm a whole lot more serious now just for starters. Nothing like almost dying to make you really serious about certain things.

Consider that a Mosque to a Muslim is as a Church to a christian, or a Temple to a Jewish person. The are essentully the same thing but to different religions. In Islam a Mosque is also used as a symbal of conquest historically... Mosques are and have been contructed FIRST on any conquered land at prominent inportant locations historically. Think back to when the whole region including Turkey was Christian... first think Muslims did was take all symbals of Christianity and convert them into Mosques not only destroying Christianity but rubbing it into everyone's faces... not to mention what was historically done to the people... convert or die. True we are talking a long time ago... but how is that essentually any different from what Christians and Jews experience in many Muslim nations today. There is a term for it in Islam, and its right on the tip of my toungue.

But Islam is far more than JUST a religion... its a dictated way of life... government control etc... and that's WHY its so dangerous.

The Idiot Cleric that is trying to build this Mosque has openly called for America to become Sharia Compliant... which would trample the constitutional rights of everyone here.

You never saw unedited filmn from the attacks did you. They edited out the bodies of people jumping and falling.
I saw the bodies falling, and I heard the splats [this word doesn't do it -- the awful sound when their bodies hit the pavement -- a sound I never want to hear again, the sound my elderly neighbor's head made when he fell off his porch onto his sidewalk]. I saw the rescue workers wincing and turning away. I too winced and turned away -- and cried.

You are defending a Mosque that WILL be a defacto memorial for the 9/11 terrorists.
No. I am defending their right to build this building.

I too have seen the elephant, Smoothy. I saw him in '78. I have no problem, as I said before, with building a mosque wherever an Imam wants to build a mosque. My problem is that the plans for the "community center" have six entire floors left blank. Can you say madrassa?

I too have seen the elephant, Smoothy. I saw him in '78. I have no problem, as I said before, with building a mosque whereever an Imam wants to build a mosque. My problem is that the plans for the "community center" have six entire floors left blank. Can you say madrassa?
So? There's a Muslim center and school (call it madrassa, if you wish) three blocks from me. It used to be a large public school, but enrollment declined and it had to close. It sat empty and became derelict and an eyesore. Muslims bought the property and restored the building, cut the grass, filled the holes in the parking lot, and have been good neighbors. There is also a Lutheran school and a Catholic one within four blocks. Oh, and a public middle school across from the madrassa.

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. ~Thomas Jefferson

Completely changed the way I view everything. I was a LOT more happy go lucky before....I'm a whole lot more serious now just for starters. Nothing like almost dying to make you really serious about certain things.

Consider that a Mosque to a Muslim is as a Church to a christian, or a Temple to a Jewish person. The are essentully the same thing but to different religions. In Islam a Mosque is also used as a symbal of conquest historically.....Mosques are and have been contructed FIRST on any conquered land at prominant inportant locations historically. Think back to when the whole region including Turkey was Christian....first think Muslims did was take all symbals of Christianity and convert them into Mosques not only destroying Christianity but rubbing it into everyones faces...not to mention what was historically done to the people...convert or die. True we are talking a long time ago...but how is that essentually any different from what Christians and Jews experience in many Muslim nations today. There is a term for it in Islam, and its right on the tip of my toungue.

But Islam is far more than JUST a religion...its a dictated way of life...government control etc....and thats WHY its so dangerous.

The Idiot Cleric that is trying to build this Mosque has openly called for America to become Sharia Compliant....which would trample the constitutional rights of everyone here.


Wait--how is that different AT ALL from Christianity for thousands of years?

How is it essentially different from Christianity today? The cover-ups with the priests sexually exploiting children, the suppression of women, blacks, and gays for centuries--even now, many Christian churches do not allow women to serve other than as nuns and exclude gays entirely--and until 50 years ago, excluded blacks from white churches.

How is taking over the world in the name of religion ANY different than what Christianity does? Have you forgotten the Crusades, the witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisition and the missionaries to the New World?

Switch the word "Moslim" to Christian in the paragraph I quoted from you, and you will still have an essentially correct paragraph.

If you don't believe me, try being a witch (pagan) or gay in the Bible Belt sometime.

If you don't believe me, try being a witch (pagan) or gay in the Bible Belt sometime.
I remember growing up in NC and the "Negro-only" drinking fountains and bathrooms.

Hmmm, my Christian church told me that, because I have the wrong plumbing, there are several things it will not permit me to do.

The Idiot Cleric that is trying to build this Mosque has openly called for America to become Sharia Compliant....which would trample the constitutional rights of everyone here.
All 300+ million of us? With guns? Good luck with that.

Hello again,

I wonder if there are any Christian church's that would like to turn this country into a theocracy, thereby destroying the Constitution. Nahh. Whoever heard of such a thing?

But, if we DID find one, should we root 'em out? Or, is one within his constitutional rights to openly call for Christian law (or maybe Sharia)?

excon

That is your interpretation. And I wish it were true but clearly it is not. It says Congress in one place and States in another... but it does not say cities, townships, etc...Hello again, Rick:

Not really. Read the words again. "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

City's county's, townships, and even HOA's ARE within the states jurisdiction. That, of course, doesn't mean that city's or county's are automatically going to guard everybody's rights. They don't. Certainly no more than the federal government does. If your city is violating ANY of your rights listed in the Bill of Rights, I believe you can sue, and I believe you can WIN.

excon

No. I am defending their right to build this building.

Exactly WHERE is it Defined anyone has the right to build anything they want, anyplace they want without being subject to any retrictions or approvals (town, County, State and local residents)?

Have you ever tried to have something built, or even added to in a substantual way? I don't think you ever have based on that answer.

Because Non-muslims in the USA don't have that right anyplace. Why do Muslims think they are exempt.

I OWN my house... do I have the RIGHT to build anything I want on my Property? NO. I have a whole long list of things that HAVE to be complied with, including a percentage rule where my property can not excede a certain percentage of non permiable surfaces... and that is concrete, blacktop, pavers or structures. And EVERYTHING is subject to local citizen review... meaning even if I make it through all the zoneing, and other legal hurdles... it can still be shot down by my neighbors. And for the Record. There is no homeowners assiociation in the area I live.

All 300+ million of us? with guns? Good luck with that.

And I agree, but I also think he shouldn't be allowed to even get his foot in the door.

Off topic... but MOST and not just a simple majority of the United States wants nothing to do with Obama care... But they are ramming that down our throats. Think about it.

If the Democrats ever had their way... they would take away those guns from everyone. Then what would stand in their way.

Hello again,

I wonder if there are any Christian church's that would like to turn this country into a theocracy, thereby destroying the Constitution. Nahh. Whoever heard of such a thing?

But, if we DID find one, should we root 'em out? Or, is one within his constitutional rights to openly call for Christian law (or maybe Sharia)?

excon

Christian Chruches are refused to be allowed to build at certain locations all the time... there has been well publicized cases in Washington DC I know of, why are Muslim Mosques above the same laws, rules and review?

How is it essentially different from Christianity today? The cover-ups with the priests sexually exploiting children, the suppression of women, blacks, and gays for centuries--even now, many Christian churches do not allow women to serve other than as nuns and exclude gays entirely--and until 50 years ago, excluded blacks from white churches.

The priest thing has been covered in this thread. Allowing women to serve in the church at all is probably much more than you'll get out of Islam. We don't afford them a lesser status, don't allow marriage to a child, force them to wear a hijab and veil and don't participate in honor killings.


How is taking over the world in the name of religion ANY different than what Christianity does?

OK I admit it, Christianity wants to convert the world. Voluntarily, entirely of your own free will and if you don't convert, I promise not to cut your head off... just be who you are.


Have you forgotten the Crusades, the witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisition and the missionaries to the New World?

I never knew them so I have nothing to forget.


If you don't believe me, try being a witch (pagan) or gay in the Bible Belt sometime.

I will have lived in the bible belt for 50 years next week and I've never seen any heretics burned at the stake. In fact, I think they meet at Memorial Park every Sunday, weather permitting.

Hello again,

I wonder if there are any Christian church's that would like to turn this country into a theocracy, thereby destroying the Constitution. Nahh. Whoever heard of such a thing?

Who? In several decades of church life I have been taught to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, but I don't recall anyone in the church ever calling for a theocracy.

But the Christians in this country DO want a theocracy---they just don't call it that. Think of all the different ways religion influences law in this country. Running late this morning, so don't have time to get into examples--but I'm sure you can think of a few places where the "morals" that laws are built on come from the Christian morals.

And really--that was my point, speechlesstx, about the Crusades and witch burnings and all that--you DIDN'T know them. Neither do most Muslims know about what the terrorists are doing and planning. Looking at history--the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity have been as bad or worse than the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. But because YOU, personally, weren't a part of them, you refuse to acknowledge the point that the religion you belong to was behind them. Again--my point was ONLY that blaming ALL Muslims for the atrocities committed by some is like blaming ALL Christians for the atrocities committed by SOME. Or, if you like, that all blacks are bad because ONE of them stole from you. Or that all teenagers are bad and evil because you saw ONE of them on drugs. Please--accept an example for an example, already.

And having BEEN the witch in the Bible belt--burnings aren't always in the park at the stake. Egging my house, graffiti on my car, and discrimination in my workplace and other places, such as being asked to remove jewelry with pentacles on it or refusal to allow me to have my holy days off from work in exchange for working a different holiday. When's the last time you had to take Christmas or Easter off from work, and when have you EVER heard of someone being asked to remove a cross because someone found it offensive?

Either way--I see ALL of the objections to the new Mosque as religious discrimination unless you ask every church in the same area to please move away from a public/government remembrance site.

Synnen, I think we've been over this before. If some moron 'Christians' egg your house and all that other stuff they're just that, morons. There is nothing in Christianity that teaches, allows, endorses that kind of behavior. There may be sects, just as with Islam, that pervert the faith but we have nothing in our bible or doctrine that can be used to justify it. If you were my neighbor you'd be my neighbor and hopefully a friend.

As for being asked to remove stuff or whatever, I don't know of any instances personally. I do know one of wife's employers made everyone cover their tattoos, but it was applied fairly to all as it should be.

As far as encoding morals into law, that works on all sides... doesn't make us a theocracy for trying to protect unborn babies or allowing kids to pray.

Hello again,

Let's cut to the chase. YOU say, he has the RIGHT, but he SHOULDN'T build it...

Do you LIKE that right?? Would you change it if you could?

excon

Hello again,

Let's cut to the chase. YOU say, he has the RIGHT, but he SHOULDN'T build it....

Do you LIKE that right??? Would you change it if you could?

excon

Should the Aryan Brotherhood have the right to build anything they want next to the NAACP headquarters?

And that particular Imam is no better than they are.

Been there, done that multiple times ex. Yes, I like his right to build and I like my right to object.

Should the Aryan Brotherhood have the right to build anything they want next to the NAACP headquarters?Hello again, smoothy:

The question is simple and straightforward. Do you LIKE the First Amendment, or do you want to CHANGE it? Yes, or no is all that's required.

excon

Yes, I like his right to build and I like my right to object.Hello again, Steve:

You don't see ANY conflict in the above?? I'm not really sure what you mean... If you LIKE the amendment, it would seem that you wouldn't object when somebody takes advantage of it... Or is it just the WORDS that you like?

Please explain. Do you LIKE it when somebody takes advantage of his rights, or do you not?

excon

I don't know what there is to explain, ex. They have the right to build it, I have the right to object. You recall the first amendment don't you? Does their right to build trump my right to object? Or, since you already know where I stand are you just waiting for me to endorse/bless/raise funds for the mosque? I think that's what you want.

Hello again, Steve:

THIS is a DIFFERENT question. I KNOW you don't want to answer, because it makes you THINK. Most wingers don't want to DO that.

Would you CHANGE the First Amendment if you COULD?

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

The question is simple and straightforward. Do you LIKE the First Amendment, or do you want to CHANGE it? Yes, or no is all that's required.

excon

What does the first amendment have to do with a Terrorist Memorial at or near ground Zero?

And even IF it did... why are Muslims Above having to meet every restriction and law that applies to everyone else.

Hello again, Steve:

THIS is a DIFFERENT question. I KNOW you don't want to answer, because it makes you THINK. Most wingers don't wanna DO that.

Would you CHANGE the First Amendment if you COULD?

exconIt's the Liberals that want to shut down Talk radio and every form of media they don't have essential domination over like they do in Newspapers and the TV media. Where the DNC dictates what information they will keep from the public and what they will avoid talking about. Such as Obamas records and avoiding any hard questions at press conferences to him that they love to throw at republicans and have..

If it was BUSH that has spent MILLIONS keeping all his records secret from the public that's ALL we would ever hear about... but for Lord Obama the Messiah, not a word.

Don't try laying THAT trip on republicans when it's the Dems that have been actively trying to silence anyone that disagrees with the Messiah (Obama) or their agenda in general.

Just one example... "The Fairness Docterine" which is anything but fair where they would by force get 50% of the radio airtime, but it would not apply to the already Lefty dominated TV news or Newspapers.

Liberals in general believe in ONLY their own free speech... but not anyone else's.

Hello again, smoothy:

I could call a monkey a cigarette, but it would still BE a monkey. You can spew all the words you like, but it won't change a mosque into ________.

You either don't KNOW the First Amendment (which is MY pick), or you do and you just want to deflect the conversation because you don't want to THINK about legal stuff like that.

But, I want to talk about legal stuff like that. If you don't want to address it, don't. But, I ain't going to respond to made up words.

excon

Its the Liberals that want to shut down Talk radioHello again, smoothy:

If you want to engage me, you're going to have to learn to debate. You don't debate. You throw out slogans and talking points. That ain't interesting, and I quickly grow tired of it.

I think we're done here.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

If you want to engage me, you're going to have to learn to debate. You don't debate. You throw out slogans and talking points. That ain't interesting, and I quickly grow tired of it.

I think we're done here.

excon

Really, YOU can throw out talking points and slogans but I can't?

Hello again, smoothy:

I could call a monkey a cigarette, but it would still BE a monkey. You can spew all the words you like, but it won't change a mosque into ________.

You either don't KNOW the First Amendment (which is MY pick), or you do and you just want to deflect the conversation because you don't want to THINK about legal stuff like that.

But, I want to talk about legal stuff like that. If you don't want to address it, don't. But, I ain't gonna respond to made up words.

exconYou know, I've actually read the first amendment, as well as the second. And Nowhere in it and under any wording are Muslims exempt from every thing that can prevent them from erecting a terrorist memorial on American soil.

You can't Erect a Christmas Tree or Mention Christmas in schools... but Muslims are allowed to do anything they want, anywhere they want. I want to see how Muslims are granted rights Christians don't have in the Constitution. Since I can't find it myself can you please point it out.

THIS is a DIFFERENT question.

Sure it is when you change the question.


I KNOW you don't want to answer, because it makes you THINK. Most wingers don't want to DO that.

I love to think, I'm just very tired.


Would you CHANGE the First Amendment if you COULD?

No.

Really, YOU can throw out talking points and slogans but I can't?Hello again, smoothy:

THAT is the problem we have. You can't tell the difference between slogans and debate. I'm sorry, Dude. I like you, but this ain't working for either of us. I'm breaking up. Don't call.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

THAT is the problem we have. You can't tell the difference between slogans and debate. I'm sorry, Dude. I like you, but this ain't working for either of us. I'm breaking up. Don't call.

exconSo... YOU can accuse Republicans of being anti-first amendment because the Left is above ever even being questioned. But actual attempts by the left to actually restrict the first amendment can not be mentioned..


Come on now... unless you can produce in specific wording where Muslims OUTSIDE THE USA can build a Terrorist memorial on OUR SOIL and be above any criticism then I think its you who is using talking points and diversion, not me. And Nobody has yet proven WHERE that money is actually coming from... for all anyone knows it can be Ossama Bin Laden or his buddies in Suadi Arabia financing it. NOT Americans. THe Imam being a straw man in the whole thing.

You can't Erect a Christmas Tree or Mention Christmas in schools....but Muslims are allowed to do anything they want, anywhere they want. I want to see how Muslims are granted rights Christians don't have in the Constitution. Since I can't find it myself can you please point it out.
I see you changed this from what I first read.

What rights are Muslims granted that Christians don't have? There are four Christian churches (built on property legally purchased) within easy walking distance of my house and only one madrassa (built on property legally purchased). The only mosque in the area (built on property legally purchased) is in the next suburb over.

I see you changed this from what I first read.

What rights are Muslims granted that Christians don't have? There are four Christian churches (built on property legally purchased) within easy walking distance of my house and only one madrassa (built on property legally purchased). The only mosque in the area (built on property legally purchased) is in the next suburb over.

Yeah.. you may have read it the moment I posted it but I edited it because I saw something I didn't like the wording spelling etc.

And every one of those when they were built had to follow the same rules, laws and restrictions that any other business would have to follow... including local review by the residents. And you didn't answer any question with that response. There are far more christians in this nation than Muslims... its not surprising there are more churches.

How many people live in that part of Manhattan, what "Community" are they claiming to serve. That's in the middle of a Business district... not a residential zone.

Democrats have fought to keep any symbol of Chirstian Observance of Chrisrtmas and easter as two examples out of schools and public places... yet they are defending the construction of a Memorial to Muslim Terrorists near a site where thousands of Americans, mostly NON-Muslim were Killed at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

How many people live in that part of Manhattan, what "Community" are they claiming to serve. That's in the middle of a Business district... not a residential zone.
It will be a business, not a residence.

Democrats have fought to keep any symbol of Chirstian Observance of Chrisrtmas and easter as two examples out of schools and public places... yet they are defending the construction of a Memorial to Muslim Terrorists near a site where thousands of Americans, mostly NON-Muslim were Killed at the hands of Islamic terrorists.
I'm not Democrat; I'm a Republican and a Christian who believes Christian observances have no business in public schools and public places. Thus, I sent both of my children to parochial schools.

You certainly know how to ratchet things up by calling it a "Memorial to Muslim Terrorists"!

There is one politician running here who says he will use eminent domain to declare the building public property ;part of the 9-11 memorial .

Once it is public property I'm sure the Dems will then invoke the establishment clause ,as is their typical won't, to prevent the use of public property for religious purposes... right ?

I don't endorse that strategery because I don't approve of SCOTUS' definition of the 'Taking Clause' .But ;in this case at least the property would be reserved for public use and not for private renovation like what is happening all over the country after the Kelo decision.

But ;in this case at least the property would be reserved for public use and not for private renovation Hello again, tom:

No, it wouldn't. Eminent domain cannot be used to mask religious discrimination. That's exactly what this will be. Do you think everybody will just go along and wink at each other? Dude! Like it or not, people ARE allowed to practice their religion in this country, freely. It's a RIGHT that cannot be taken away.

What blows me away, is that I'm arguing this with someone who has STAUNCHLY stood by this individuals RIGHT to build, but is willing to cave on it now... Wow! What kind of RIGHT'S do you think we have in this country if one stinkin politician or city can deny them to you??

I ask you again, would you be so cavalier about your gun rights?

I suggest you did NOT support his right to build, and you were LOOKING for reasons to stop it. It appears that you do not understand what, primarily, is the BASIS for this country's founding. Oh, you'll protest and say you do, but your post is evidence that you do not.

excon

It will be a business, not a residence.

I'm not Democrat; I'm a Republican and a Christian who believes Christian observances have no business in public schools and public places. Thus, I sent both of my children to parochial schools.

You certainly know how to ratchet things up by calling it a "Memorial to Muslim Terrorists"!

So a Mosque supports the Business Community just how. A Mosque is primarily a place a worship for a non-existant residential community.

It IS a memorial to Muslim Terrorists... there is no other possible explanation for why a Mosque HAS to go that close to ground Zero were there is essentually NO residents in the general area.

Is it being funded exclusively by Manhattan Muslims in THAT area? Nope... who is funding it? Don't know? Ever wonder WHY that's a great secret... The Imam is ON a trip to the middle east to get money for it from supporters of Radical Islam. Thus its Being built by the very same people who anyone who watched TV after 9/11 that were celibrating the Great Victory of the Terrorists. Are you aware its been a doctrine in Islam to build a Mosque at the site of victories over Christians for the last 1300 years?

And incidentally I do question if you really are a republican... and surprised you would pay to send your kids to a parochial school but deny others who were not catholic the right to celibrate Christian holidays with their friends.

And yes... in many places Protestants who surprise, surprise are also Christian are not allowed the possibility of enrolling their kids in a Catholic school at any price, and that is the only alternative to public school for many people. I grew up in such an area.

Hello again, tom:

No, it wouldn't. Eminent domain cannot be used to mask religious discrimination. That's exactly what this will be. Do you think everybody will just go along and wink at each other? Dude! Like it or not, people ARE allowed to practice their religion in this country, freely. It's a RIGHT that cannot be taken away.

What blows me away, is that I'm arguing this with someone who has STAUNCHLY stood by this individuals RIGHT to build, but is willing to cave on it now... Wow! What kind of RIGHT'S do you think we have in this country if one stinkin politician or city can deny them to you???

I ask you again, would you be so cavalier about your gun rights?

I suggest you did NOT support his right to build, and you were LOOKING for reasons to stop it. It appears that you do not understand what, primarily, is the BASIS for this country's founding. Oh, you'll protest and say you do, but your post is evidence that you do not.

excon

Dodging the question are we... exactly where does a Muslim Imam with secret foreign funding Have a RIGHT to build anything anyplace he wants?

I am American Born citizen and I don't have that right... and neither do you. Otherwize Zoneing laws... local ordinaces homeowners associations, etc... would all not exist and would have been declaired unconstitutional... and Porn shops would exist next to public schools and so would halfway houses for drug abusers.

What blows me away, is that I'm arguing this with someone who has STAUNCHLY stood by this individuals RIGHT to build, but is willing to cave on it now

What part of I don't endorse that strategery don't you understand ?

I'm just amused at the lefts sudden appreciation of the 'free exercise clause'.


suggest you did NOT support his right to build, and you were LOOKING for reasons to stop it. It appears that you do not understand what, primarily, is the BASIS for this country's founding. Oh, you'll protest and say you do, but your post is evidence that you do not.

I ,like Pelosi think this is a zoning issue . I like Howard Dean and Harry Reid think that there is more to this issue than the right to build because of the free exercise clause. I like Governor Patterson think it is reasonable to compromise on this issue .

How many people live in that part of Manhattan, what "Community" are they claiming to serve. Thats in the middle of a Business district....not a residential zone.

Democrats have fought to keep any symbol of Chirstian Observance of Chrisrtmas and easter as two examples out of schools and public places....yet they are defending the construction of a Memorial to Muslim Terrorists near a site where thousands of Americans, mostly NON-Muslim were Killed at the hands of Islamic terrorists.


How many times do we have to emphasize that a church is NOT a memorial to terrorism?

You are blaming an entire RELIGION for the actions of what? 10-20 people?

Let's ban Roman Catholicism because a bunch of priests molested children! (It's the same thing you're doing, Smoothy!)

And how many CHURCHES are within that same area? I know of at least 3 within the SAME DISTANCE as the proposed Mosque. There are at least SIX within a 10 block area. What "communities" are THEY serving, Smoothy? They're in the middle of a business district too.

All I see here is blocking freedom of religion and discrimination against an entire religion for the actions of a few extremists. That's like blaming every German for the Nazis, or every American for the bomb at Hiroshima.

Sounds to me like you can't and won't see that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the terrorists are NOT what every Muslim out there is like.

And if you want to talk about religion trying to push government around, let's talk about DOMA, and about the Pledge of Allegiance, and about "In God We Trust" on our money.

And incidently I do question if you really are a republican....and suprised you would pay to send your kids to a parochial school but deny others who were not catholic the right to celibrate Christian holidays with their friends.
I am a registered Republican (have been since I could register to vote) living in an Illinois county that is Republican and am also Missouri-Synod Lutheran minister's daughter who was a Lutheran elementary school teacher.

I don't understand your sentence about Catholics and the right to "celibrate" Christian holidays.

How many times do we have to emphasize that a church is NOT a memorial to terrorism?

You are blaming an entire RELIGION for the actions of what? 10-20 people?

Let's ban Roman Catholicism because a bunch of priests molested children! (It's the same thing you're doing, Smoothy!)

And how many CHURCHES are within that same area? I know of at least 3 within the SAME DISTANCE as the proposed Mosque. There are at least SIX within a 10 block area. What "communities" are THEY serving, Smoothy? They're in the middle of a business district too.

All I see here is blocking freedom of religion and discrimination against an entire religion for the actions of a few extremists. That's like blaming every German for the Nazis, or every American for the bomb at Hiroshima.

Sounds to me like you can't and won't see that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the terrorists are NOT what every Muslim out there is like.

And if you want to talk about religion trying to push government around, let's talk about DOMA, and about the Pledge of Allegiance, and about "In God We Trust" on our money.

It IS a memorial to terrorists. Where is the "Underserved" muslim Community in an area of Manhattan with NO residential Apartments... thus no residents to serve.

WHY is it so important to put a Mosque right there under so much protest if their intent isn't to get in the face of most americans to rub 9/11 in. Over 70% of the American Population sees that for what it is... a Memorial to the Terrorists... and an anti-american swipe just like the terrorists did on 9/11.

I certain hope that it gets burned down or blown up if its ever allowed to be built there, nope I won't be the one to do it... but there are millions in line that will.. I don't care if its across town... just not right there. I don't support other Mosques getting torched... but for that one particular one ever gets built AND torched... I'm throwing a Bar-B-Que party in honor of it.

ANd your analogy isn't correct. IF the Priest that molested the kids set up a house with a sign across the street from the home of one of his victims saying "what a sweet butt he has"... now that's a better analogy.

Incidentally I'm a protestant and don't support Catholic Docterine... and certainy didn't support their handling of that matter.

What part of I don't endorse that strategery don't you understand ?Hello again, tom:

Let's not kid ourselves. You don't endorse it because you don't endorse eminent domain - not because you thought it wouldn't work. You though it would work, all right - hence, your willingness to cave.

If you BELIEVE in the First Amendment, there's no caving, there's no but's, and there's no lists.

excon

Synn .
Unfortunately history is not on your side. Political Islam has always constructed Mosques on the sites of their victories.
In Cordoba the Califate built a Mosque on a razed Cathedral . In Jerusalem they built one on the ruins of the Temple .The Mosque of Amr (Mosque of Amr ibn al-As) was built to commemorate the conquest of Egypt.

There is no coincidence in the siting of this proposed Mosque .To the jihadists the WTC was the symbol of American economic might. To them it was a secular cathedral . KSM and his nephew Ramsi Yousef made it their decade long mission to bring them down.

The symbolism of a mosque towering over the site will certainly not be lost in the Ummah. Too bad PC 'head in the sand' politicians like Mayor Bloomberg and President Obama cannot make the distinction between their sudden discovery of an 'absolute' right to the free exercise of religion (they never seemed concerned about it before ) ;and the real question of if it SHOULD be built .

From a cuny.edu site --

From its earliest days of European settlement, when members of the Dutch West India Company landed on the southern tip of the island of Manahata, there were Muslims in New Amsterdam. As the seventeenth century wore on into the eighteenth, African slaves and sailors who practiced the Muslim faith were among many who helped to transform a tiny commercial outpost into the growing port city of New York.

How many times do we have to emphasize that a church is NOT a memorial to terrorism?

A church is not. This church may well be. The entire project still is titled "The Cordoba Initiative." Newt was a little over the top calling it a deliberate insult to the west, but the name is significant. Victor Davis Hansen calls it "cynically brilliant."

Victor Davis Hanson: The Cynical Brilliance of Imam Rauf - There are thousands of sites where... (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2573461/posts)

Well done VDH !

from a cuny.edu site --

From its earliest days of European settlement, when members of the Dutch West India Company landed on the southern tip of the island of Manahata, there were Muslims in New Amsterdam. As the seventeenth century wore on into the eighteenth, African slaves and sailors who practiced the Muslim faith were among many who helped to transform a tiny commercial outpost into the growing port city of New York.

NYC already has over 200 registed Mosques . Lower Manhattan already has a few .

Apparently, the damaged building that will be torn down, a four-story Burlington Coat Factory, is already being used as a mosque by local Muslims. (That building, along with others in the area, was damaged on 9/11.)

and the real question of if it SHOULD be built .Hello again, tom:

Assuming you meant to say, the real question is, SHOULD it be built, I'll handle that one. It's easy. I also agree, that THAT is the central question.

Should an American citizen build what he wants to build on his own property, assuming of course, that he's met all local zoning and building codes? Of course he should.

Should it matter whether I like it or not? No.

excon

NYC already has over 200 registed Mosques . Lower Manhattan already has a few .
So? This will revitalize a broken, even derelict, area of Manhattan.

A terrorist Memorial will revitalize it how? Home base for terrorists to plan more future "revitalizations" projects. Like at the site of the Empire State building? Or the CHrysler Building? How about muslim revitalization of Grand Central Station. THey think THOSE are prime places for a Mosque too for all the Muslim residents of Central Park.

Should it matter whether I like it or not? No.

Reminds me of my neighborhood that used to be a quiet street lined with trees and solid, two- or three-bedroom homes on large lots. Then the teardowns began back about ten years ago. McMansions were built, and occupants ended up with postage-stamp-sized yards. The beautiful park-like corner lot next door to me was divided into three lots. (Special permission had to be gotten from the village.) The neighbor children now beg to play in my huge back yard, since they have none. (I have to say no for liability's sake.) I'm so glad I didn't sell the builder a twenty-five foot piece of my property; otherwise, the neighbors' driveway basketball games would be right outside my bedroom window.

Do I like this? No. But the builder followed all the rules and had a right to subdivide and build like he did.

So? This will revitalize a broken, even derelict, area of Manhattan

Clearly you have not visited lower Manhattan recently . Despite the hammering that Wall Street has taken in recent years the area is hardly what you would call derelict.Actually the WTC site had become a tourist destination . It is a short walk from there to many other places in the area a tourist might want to see. You can easily spend a long weekend just in the lower Manhattan area and still not see all there is to offer .

A terrorist Memorial will revitalize it how? Home base for terrorists to plan more future "revitalizations" projects. Like at the site of the Empire State building? or the CHrysler Building?
I'm sure you will be welcomed warmly when you go there to visit and check up on them. Be sure to ask for some baklava with your coffee.

clearly you have not visited lower Manhattan recently . Despite the hammering that Wall Street has taken in recent years the area is hardly what you would call derelict.Actually the WTC site had become a tourist destination . It is a short walk from there to many other places in the area a tourist might want to see. You can easily spend a long weekend just in the lower Manhattan area and still not see all there is to offer .
So all the buildings damaged on 9/11 have been repaired and are inhabited now? Oh, and what has been built on Ground Zero during the past nine years?

I'm sure you will be welcomed warmly when you go there to visit and check up on them. Be sure to ask for some baklava with your coffee.

Personally... I hate New York City. In more ways than one. I hate anyplace that requires a drive of several miles to see more than a square yard of grass. And particularly anyplace where there is more concrete than trees, flowers and grass.

It isn't natural for people to cram together that tightly.

And yet---no one has answered the question about what "community" is using the 6 Christian churches in this "commercial and not residential" area around Ground Zero.

Community is NOT just where people LIVE, you know.

What this comes down to is that I'm not willing to give up freedoms for safety. None of you should be willing to do so, either.

So all the buildings damaged on 9/11 have been repaired and are inhabited now? Oh, and what has been built on Ground Zero during the past nine years?

You are talking about the WTC's and a couple adjacent buildings .But you called the couple of blocks a "derelict area" .

There are hundreds of construction jobs ongoing at any given time in Manhattan ,even in this economic climate. The area around the WTC is largely back in business. The Liberty Tower and memorial are finally under construction . I fail to see where building the mosque would have any positive or negative impact on the economy of lower Manhattan.

Now if you really wanted a positive economic impact on the area ;cut Capital Gains taxes to a level the rest of the Western world enjoys. Only Japan is more punitive on businesses.

And yet---no one has answered the question about what "community" is using the 6 Christian churches in this "commercial and not residential" area around Ground Zero.

Community is NOT just where people LIVE, you know.

What this comes down to is that I'm not willing to give up freedoms for safety. None of you should be willing to do so, either.

And as I have asked ExCon... exactly where in the constitution are Muslims alone granted the right to do anything they want, anywhere they want without being subject to anything to stop them?

There is no constitutional right to build anything you want, anywhere you want. Otherwise every Zoning, local ordanence, Homeowners association and any law or regualtion attached to structures in the country would have been declared unconstitutional... because any and every one can prevent you from exercising this "Right" that apparently only the Muslims have. Since nobody else has it.

I can't build a garage in my back yard without zoneing approval... town approval. Approval of all my surrounding neighers (neighborhood review), no homeowners associtation where I live, not to mention permits, etc... if it was my RIGHT to do what I want on my property. And if it totals more than 24% coverage of my property... I'm sh*t out of luck because it WILL be refused. And Constitutional rights can't be trumped by Federal much less state or local ordinaces.

And as I have asked ExCon... exactly where in the constitution are Muslims alone granted the right to do anything they want, anywhere they want without being subject to anything to stop them?
They aren't. They are following the same rules Christians must follow.

There is no constitutional right to build anything you want, anywhere you want. Otherwise every Zoning, local ordanence, Homeowners association and any law or regualtion attached to structures in the country would have been declared unconstitutional... because any and every one can prevent you from exercising this "Right" that apparently only the Muslims have. Since nobody else has it.
Huh? What about my Italian neighbors in their McMansion that now overshadows my one-story house and blocks my view of the setting sun? This was mostly a German and Polish block before they moved on to it. How dare they! And they can look down into my house from their second story windows. Now I got to pull down my shades. Geez.

and your remedy before they were built was to petition the town ,ask for zoning changes ,petition with your neighbors to prevent it ,threaten to boycott any company involved in the construction (libs utilize boycotts often as I recall).. any number of steps that would've been a legitimate expression of your 1st amendment rights.
Exercising your rights would not mean by extension that you were denying the owner their rights.

The argument that Excon is making on this op is what Howard Dean correctly called "absolutism" .

and your remedy before they were built was to petition the town ,ask for zoning changes ,petition with your neighbors to prevent it ,threaten to boycott any company involved in the construction (libs utilize boycotts often as I recall) ..any number of steps that would've been a legitimate expression of your 1st amendment rights.
Exercising your rights would not mean by extention that you were denying the owner their rights.
They won; our neighborhood lost.

They aren't. They are following the same rules Christians must follow.

Huh? What about my Italian neighbors in their McMansion that now overshadows my one-story house and blocks my view of the setting sun? This was mostly a German and Polish block before they moved on to it. How dare they! And they can look down into my house from their second story windows. Now I gotta pull down my shades. Geez.

Are you even really a christian... seriously. YOu know darn well Christians have to follow the same laws every other American has to follow... Churches included, but you are arguing Muslims are somehow exempt and have special rights the rest of us don't have.

Hey... about the McMansion thing... thank your local elected officials. They allowed it to be buiilt They didn't have to. They could have legally rejected the permits... and if it was built without permits can have it torn down at the owners expense. Happens around here every couple years.

I can understand your point on the McMansion. We have codes and laws that apply to what can be built and how big in existing neighborhoods. They are there to Prevent the very thing you describe.

I suggest getting together with your neighbors and making it an issue long before the next election in your area. It can be stopped.

They won; our neighborhood lost.

Again.. a grass roots campaign before the next election can put an end to that in the future if you can get enough people on board. Under the table bribes won't help an official that out of his job get anything done.

Those are elected positions in most places... actions will effect elections. No politition is ENTITLED to a job for life. Contrary to what many believe.

Are you even really a christian... seriously. YOu know darn well Christians have to follow the same laws every other American has to follow... Churches included, but you are arguing Muslims are somehow exempt and have special rights the rest of us don't have.
Where did I argue Muslims are exempt?

I suggest getting together with your neighbors and making it an issue long before the next election in your area. It can be stopped.
The slowdown in the economy stopped the teardowns, and the McMansion phase seems to be over now that conspicuous consumption isn't a priority.

Sorry about that WG . I had a different experience after a multi-year battle. I ultimately won by becoming politically active and help replace the board at the polls .


Howard Dean is spending his day defending his comments from irate former relativists from his side.
Here are his latest comments :

Here is my case.

First, no one who understands the American Constitution can reasonably doubt the right of the builders to build.
Secondly, the building site is very close to the site of a violent tragedy that seared the soul of every American including Muslim Americans.
Thirdly, the builders of the proposed Islamic Center say they want to help heal the nation and there is a preponderance of evidence that that is true, based not least on the fact that the last administration viewed the leadership of this group as a. pro American bridge to the Muslim world.

Fourth, there are many Americans, about 65 or 70 percent, including many family members of the victims, who have very strong emotional resistance to building on this site. Some of them may have other feelings such as hate, fear, etc. but the vast majority of these people are not right wing hate mongers.

My argument is simple. This Center may be intended as a bridge or a healing gesture but it will not be perceived that way unless a dialogue with a real attempt to understand each other happens. That means the builders have to be willing to go beyond what is their right and be willing to talk about feelings whether the feelings are "justified" or not. No doubt the Republic will survive if this center is built on its current site or not. But I think this is a missed opportunity to try to have an open discussion about why this is a big deal because it is a big deal to a lot of Americans who are not just right wing politicians pushing the hate button again. I think those people need to be heard respectfully whether they are right or whether they are wrong.

This has nothing to do with the right to build and unlike same sex marriage or the civil rights movement it is not about equal protection under the law. The rights of the builders are not in dispute. This is about ending the poisonous atmosphere engendered by fear and hate, and in order to do that there has to be genuine listening, hearing and willingness to compromise on both sides I personally believe that there are other possible solutions that could result from such a process and that a genuine exploration of those possibilities is something we ought to try.

Again..a grass roots campaign before the next election can put an end to that in the future if you can get enough people on board.
Not to worry. We're on top of that.

Where did I argue Muslims are exempt?

The slowdown in the economy stopped the teardowns, and the McMansion phase seems to be over now that conspicuous consumption isn't a priority.

Well, arguing they have a right to that Mosque at that site basically is.

No Christian has a right to build a church at just any location they wish, simply because they want to.

Then now is a good time to get it codified into something perminant... before the money starts lining pockets again and they are less receptive. ANd eventually that will happen... sometime after the current idiot is replaced and the next guy fixes all the screwups of the last two years. And if THAT never happens then heaven help us all.

"at that site"??

"at that site"???

Again... Islamic Tradition is to build Mosques at the site of victorious battles... has been their policy for over 1,300 years.

Islamic Terrorists crashed planes into the Trade center towers... they succeeded in bring them down... and it wasn't their first attempt.

Next a Radical Imam want to build a Mosque damn close to Ground Zero... with funding from unknown sources in the Middle ast where they were Cheering the terrorists that day. Not US muslims... Middle eastern anti-american muslims... only one possible reason, and none of them are either helpful to americans or endearing to the american public.

That's preciesely akin to the Japanese erecting a memorial outside the entrance to the USS ARizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor to the Japanese Pilots killed by Americans during that attack.


Or the Germans Erecting a memorial outside Auchwitz to honor the Nazi soldiers that died from diseases caught from the concentration camp prisoners.

But it's not at Ground Zero and won't even be able to be seen from Ground Zero.

But it's not at Ground Zero and won't even be able to be seen from Ground Zero.Ummm where do you think they plan to build this... Long Island?

At least a block away (maybe two blocks?) from Ground Zero, in the middle of the block, behind some other buildings that prevent it from viewing the actual site.

I haven't done a lot of research on this, but I knew that much.

Ummm where do you think they plan to build this....Long Island?
Two blocks away and around a corner, from Vesey to Park Pl. -- and won't overshadow or even overlook Ground Zero.

Hello ladies:

You're not going to let him get away with making ALL Muslims guilty for a few. I certainly HOPE not, but that's what he's doing. I'd tell him he's full of it, but we broke up. Besides, I wouldn't know where to start or where to stop. He chooses his facts like his underwear.

excon

He doesn't appear to know where they are going to build it, so he certainly doesn't know WHO is going to build it.

It must be awful to live in such a scary world.

He doesn't appear to know where they are going to build it, so he certainly doesn't know WHO is going to build it.

It must be awful to live in such a scary world.Well you think its halfway across town. You are aware THAT building they plan to tear down was damaged by the landing gear from one of the Planes that hit the tower AFTER they passed through the tower. That's pretty damn close to Ground zero. So before you get snippy, you can walk that distance in only a couple minutes and by that I mean about 3 minutes IF you don't have a red light, You can jog it in a hell of a lot less, its not a 5 minute cab ride with green lights and no traffic..

But clearly... with that snotty attitude, you clearly had ZERO connections ot those Terrorist acts... and probibly were not even any where near any of them.

Don't forget I was INSIDE the freaking Pentagon, and if it wasn't for a really odd bit of anxiety and impatience where I really wanted to get out of there... I would have still been there. So before you make any cocky comments about what its like to live in a scarey world... you had better think long and hard.

Maybe if you are ever a victim of a violent crime where you Seriously almost die at the hands of some idiots... THEN, and Only THEN will you have any place to make a crack like that without someone taking a serious offense at it.

And yeah... I'm being serious, I think that remark was really out of line. That's far beyond a debate... thats a personal jab at someone who was there... got any other smart comments to direct for people that got out of the Towers too? Since obviously anyone who was there that day and managed to walk away by sheer luck by your definition are being totally unreasonible for being upset at those terrorists and anyone who wants to erect a memorial to them.

Yeah I'm pis*ed off right now... in a VERY big way. And I don't get this way easy.


You know what... if you got robbed a gunpoint next week, how would YOU feel if I said get over it... that they were nowhere near killing you after all...

Bet you wouldn't think it was very nice.

I feel sick every time I see any article or anything about the Mosque being built near ground zero, but I'm always tempted to put my two cents in mainly because my family is Muslim.

Although I don't follow the religion, I know that all Muslims are not terrorists. It makes me sick to think that people would call my parents or my family terrorists. I think that people who are intolerant of all muslims are just close-minded. They don't know that America isn't the only country that has been attacked by terrorists. The Taliban has also killed people in their own countries. My family is Pakistani and are Ahmadi Muslims. Ahmadis and several other sects are persecuted in Pakistan and are not considered Islamic by some fundamentalists. Recently, one of the mosques in my parents' old hometown was shot down by terrorists and a lot of people including children were killed. Most of my family lives in America because of the fact that Ahmadis are persecuted in Pakistan. My uncle actually helped many families in Pakistan come to America in the 70s.

Anyway, the reason why I'm telling everyone about my family and their religion is to show how most muslims come to America to have a better life, not to kill Americans. How would it make you feel if you came to a country to get away from people that hated you for no reason and everyone in that new country still hated you? After 9/11 many people have become prejudiced against all Muslims. I was 10 when the attacks happened and the next day I when I went to school, my own teacher lectured about how all muslims are terrorists and bad people. Can you imagine how a kid would feel if you told them that everyone in their family is a terrorist? On top of that, after 9/11, people- including children threw rocks at our mosque in NYC.

Overall, I obviously think that the mosque should be built next to ground zero- even if people throw rocks at it, protest in front of it, and kill the people in it because it is the only way, people will be able to look back and relize that it was wrong for being intolerant.

Hello ladies:

You're not going to let him get away with making ALL Muslims guilty for a few. I certainly HOPE not, but that's what he's doing. I'd tell him he's full of it, but we broke up. Besides, I wouldn't know where to start or where to stop. He chooses his facts like his underwear.

excon

I'm really ticked off at wondergirls personal attack... and I'm letting loose.

You know what... screw you too, I suppose you contribute to the Terrorists. You know... too damn bad YOU weren't in the tower or the Pentagon... too bad one of YOUR faminly even wasn't... because in case you are totally unaware.. the Terrorists WERE Muslim... and while not ALL muslims were guilty of supporting them (YOUR comment NOT mine, and if you insist prove otherwise... I'm not a moderator and I can't edit my own threads after they lock)... a VERY high percentage were.

Believe any damn thing you want... but anyone who defends the terrorists as YOU are doing and attacking people who actually WERE there, unlike you really goes a long way to showing which side you are on. ANd you really don't care about the rights of real Americans... after all, you also think the entire population of latin America has a constitutional right to cross our borders illegally.

Clearly you don't live on the east coast so why should you care.

I really hope the next terrorist attack is on the Golden Gate Bridge, the Space needle and any damn thing else that passes as a landmark on the WEST Coast... maybe that is what it will take to get the lefties over there to grasp that the enemy is the terrorists and even more so the silent radical element that infests far too many Mosques around the world... not the republicans.

Anfd if that freaking Mosque is ever built... I am throwing a Bar-B-Que party in honor of whoever pulls it off burning it down.

Because It's a HUGE offense to the American population by the Muslims and latest pols show 73 percent of the American Public is against it. I'm far from being alone.

THe Muslims don't get it... fine. Let us build a HUGE Christian Cathedral in both Mecca AND Medina. Maybe that's something they can understand after all its our right.. lets see how far the Muslims allow that to go. Not this far I'll put good money on.

You know what...screw you too, I suppose you contribute to the Terrorists. You know...too damn bad YOU weren't in the tower or the Pentagon...too.Hello again, smoothy:

Because you were there doesn't give you license to make up facts. You did. I called you on it. You didn't like it. Goodby.

excon

I'm really ticked off at wondergirls personal attack....and I'm letting loose.

You know what...screw you too, I suppose you contribute to the Terrorists. You know...too damn bad YOU weren't in the tower or the Pentagon...too bad one of YOUR faminly even wasn't....because in case you are totally unaware..the Terrorists WERE Muslim...and while not ALL muslims were guilty of supporting them (YOUR comment NOT mine, and if you insist prove otherwise...I'm not a moderator and I can't edit my own threads after they lock)...a VERY high percentage were.

Believe any damn thing you want.....but anyone who defends the terrorists as YOU are doing and attacking people who actually WERE there, unlike you really goes a long way to showing which side you are on. ANd you really don't care about the rights of real Americans....after all, you also think the entire population of latin America has a constitutional right to cross our borders illegally.

Clearly you don't live on the east coast so why should you care.

I really hope the next terrorist attack is on the Golden Gate Bridge, the Space needle and any damn thing else that passes as a landmark on the WEST Coast....maybe that is what it will take to get the lefties over there to grasp that the enemy is the terrorists and even more so the silent radical element that infests far too many Mosques around the world....not the republicans.

Anfd if that freaking Mosque is ever built...I am throwing a Bar-B-Que party in honor of whoever pulls it off burning it down.

Because Its a HUGE offense to the American population by the Muslims and latest pols show 73 percent of the American Public is against it. I'm far from being alone.

THe Muslims don't get it...fine. Let us build a HUGE Christian Cathedral in both Mecca AND Medina. Maybe thats something they can understand after all its our right.. lets see how far the Muslims allow that to go. Not this far I'll put good money on.


Smoothy, if you think that not muslims are gulity of supporting terrorists, why would you assume that the muslims that want to build the mosque near ground zero are an offense to the American population? On top of that do you assume that that all of those Muslims aren't American.. I'm sure a lot of them are American.

So before you make any cocky comments about what its like to live in a scarey world... you had better think long and hard.
I lived in that world for 45 years. I managed to find my way out finally.

Maybe if you are ever a victim of a violent crime where you Seriously almost die at the hands of some idiots... THEN, and Only THEN will you have any place to make a crack like that without someone taking a serious offense at it.
So ALL Muslims are idiots and are worthy of your disrespect?

anyone who wants to erect a memorial to them.
That's not true.

Hello again, smoothy:

Because you were there doesn't give you license to make up facts. You did. I called you on it. You didn't like it. Goodby.

exconBullsh1t... you pulled something out of your butt, prove it... link ot a thread where I have said that. Otherwise you are no different than Obama whoes entire life is a lie which is why nearly ALL of his records are being kept secret from the public.

Smoothy--Nope, I wasn't there.

I WAS in Seattle during the WTO riots, though--and during the lockdown at New Year's from 1999-2000 because of the terrorist threats to the Space Needle. I was living on the west coast when they caught a man coming in from Canada with a bomb, and when they started searching for his confederates.

No, not ALL Muslims are terrorists. Not even MOST of them are. A small percentage ARE--just like a small percentage of any OTHER religion are evil.

You will never see how holding an entire religion accountable for the actions of a few is making a Nazi of you. Your idea is to persecute and treat as secondary citizens ALL Muslims, even though there are quite a few Muslims who are American. How is that different from stopping Jews from having the same rights in 1930s Germany as other German citizens?

I don't care WHAT happened to you. You have a scary mind when it comes to Muslims, because you don't operate on FACTS--just on your beliefs that they're ALL to blame for 9/11.

I hope that they DO build the Mosque there, and that you someday get to visit it to see that your fears are false.

Bullsh1t...you pulled something out of your butt, prove it...link ot a thread where I have said that. Otherwise you are no different than Obama whoes entire life is a lie which is why nearly ALL of his records are being kept secret from the public.

This is off-topic, but his records aren't being kept any more secret than your own are. The public doesn't have a right to see his personal records any more than the public has a right to see yours.

Smoothy, if you think that not muslims are gulity of supporting terrorists, why would you assume that the muslims that want to build the mosque near ground zero are an offense to the American population? On top of that do you assume that that all of those Muslims aren't American..I'm sure a lot of them are American.

Because #1... its a sybol of Islam very near to a major act of Islamic Terrorism. MOST americans view this as a VERY offensive action by Muslims with absolutely NO concern about the sensitivities and feeling of the entire American Nation, and an act of total Disrespect to this country and its people as a whoile. Most Americans DO feel that way... recent Polls in the last two days shows roughly 73% (with a small margin of error as no poll is 100% accurate) of the American public is very much against that Mosque.

Let me toss this out as an example. Say a ticked off Christian flew a plan into Mecca during the Pilgramage... kills a bunch of people... in a few years WE pay to build a HUGE Catholic Church near the site... how would Muslims view that. I bet you would have thousands blowing themselves up to take it down. Of course there would be a few Muslims that might be fine with a church there... but if they said it in public they would be persecuted in their own land.


Now that's hypothetical since CHristians aren't allowed in Mecca or Medina, much less allowed to build a church there... so much for repsect for other religions by Islam.

This is off-topic, but his records aren't being kept any more secret than your own are. The public doesn't have a right to see his personal records any more than the public has a right to see yours.

Actually in the case of a President the public does have a right to know. Otherwise using your logic the president could evade laws simply by refusing to comply. It's a different standard then your average citizen.

Smoothy, if you think that not muslims are gulity of supporting terrorists, why would you assume that the muslims that want to build the mosque near ground zero are an offense to the American population? On top of that do you assume that that all of those Muslims aren't American..I'm sure a lot of them are American.

Do you not read any threads...

For the last 1,300 years Islam Doctrine has mandated they build a Mosque on the prime site of any and every conquest over Jews or Christians... I know its inconvienient to the left, but History has proven that time and time again... examples were given earlier in this thread by someone else.

I lived in that world for 45 years. I managed to find my way out finally.

So ALL Muslims are idiots and are worthy of your disrespect?

That's not true.

Well you clearly have been living a sheltered life, because your lack of comprehension of having someone try to kill you and almost succede is very telling.

Pray tell, to you think rape victims had it coming and the rapist simply misunderstood her actions as an advance?

Then exactly why do you think I should forget that brainwashed Islamic Zealots tried to kill me and I'm walking the earth today over what is nothing more than a very strange premonition of sorts. Because I've never before or to this day bailed out on a customer before they sorted out a problem... ONLY that one day I HAD to get out of there. Didn't feel like something bad was going to happen, just an overwhelming desire to get out of there and go to my office nearby.

You saw it on TV... its NOT the same thing at all, and anyone that got out of the Towers that day or were nearby will tell you the same thing.

You know and oddly enough nobody from my employer was in there that morning which was very odd since we had a LOT of customers in there and there was always several people in there on any given day.

I am not building a Church in Mecca or Medina... do you think THAT would be well received my most muslims? I think not.

Do I think all muslims are bad? No... but let me tell you I believe most do harbor anti American and anti Christian as well as anti Jewish sentiments... I also do not associate with or trust any Mslim that wears a Head Scarf or wears a Burqa. Because my Muslim friends who were Afghan Born and immigrated and also devout... say there is nothing that directs them to wear those coverings, and I consider them among my best friends. It's the foolish rants of the many misguided religious leaders of that faith that say you have to cover your hair... or the real whackos that call for burqas. And Besides... this is America... we don't like masks or people hiding behind things... people covering themselves up from view are hiding something. What that stuff, move to Saudi Arabia or Iran where nobody has rights.

Do you not read any threads....

for the last 1,300 years Islam Doctrine has mandated they build a Mosque on the prime site of any and every conquest over Jews or Christians....I know its inconvienient to the left, but History has proven that time and time again....examples were given earlier in this thread by someone else.

Ref:

Destruction of Hindu Temples by Aurangzeb (http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/temple_aurangzeb.html)

Smoothy--Nope, I wasn't there.

I WAS in Seattle during the WTO riots, though--and during the lockdown at New Year's from 1999-2000 because of the terrorist threats to the Space Needle. I was living on the west coast when they caught a man coming in from Canada with a bomb, and when they started searching for his confederates.

No, not ALL Muslims are terrorists. Not even MOST of them are. A small percentage ARE--just like a small percentage of any OTHER religion are evil.

You will never see how holding an entire religion accountable for the actions of a few is making a Nazi of you. Your idea is to persecute and treat as secondary citizens ALL Muslims, even though there are quite a few Muslims who are American. How is that different from stopping Jews from having the same rights in 1930s Germany as other German citizens?

I don't care WHAT happened to you. You have a scary mind when it comes to Muslims, because you don't operate on FACTS--just on your beliefs that they're ALL to blame for 9/11.

I hope that they DO build the Mosque there, and that you someday get to visit it to see that your fears are false.

You know... not all Nazis were bad... nor are all White Supremacists either... or Militias...

But everyone says they are just like Timothy McVeigh...

Nobody has proven most Muslims don't support the radical element in some way. You have seen the Studies in the UK on the topic in the last year or so, right... backs up what I said.

Do you support a Militia headquarters across the Street from the building in Oklahoma City that was bombed... after all they aren't all bad people and it's their right. Never mind what the people of Oklahoma City think.


A mosque there is a major act of disrespect to Americans... and check the news recent pols back that up.

Most Americans including myself don't give a damn if they build a mosquew ot two... just not anywhere close to a site of Islamic Terrorism on our soil. There is a HUGE difference there I'm sure you can see. Its not a preexisting Mosque... there is no need or want of a new one there. It's a symbolic assult on America.

The WTO riots were chump change... windows were getting broken... people weren't getting killed in large numbers. ANd yes... I was near the same riots in Washington DC, true they were not as bad... but those idiot nutcases did cause a lot of damage and trouble here too. I was just as far from those at my office as the Mohammed Attah memorial Mosque will be from the WTC site if its ever built.

THese guys were Muslims.. they were acting on Behalf of Islam... maybe not with the support of all Muslims... but the Pope doesn't have the full support of ALL catholics either. Yet many people hold the Church responsible for the acts of a few priests acting on their own.

If you want to look at it, Hitler did a lot of good things... however they did plenty of bad things too and you don't hear,"well not all Nazis were killing Jews", not all Germans in Germany supported Hitler either... but they were all held accountible just the same.

And I'm not arguing that they should have been off the hook either... but there is a big double standard here, Belong to the KKK or (fill in the blank) you are all considered bad... Belong to the religion that's responsible for most of the worlds terrorism... and heven forbid you consider them Muslim when that's exactly what they were... they did not act alone... they had LOTS of help from Muslim Imams and places Like Saudi Arabia.

Well, I do agree the Wahabi (likely misspelled) flavor has the biggest percentage of whack jobs... and no doubt not ALL muslims may feel that way, but take an honest look how Christinas, Jews, even Budists and whatever other faith you chose to select are treat in ANY Muslim majority nation. None of them are models of tollerance.

Try as a non-muslim to enter Mecca or Medina... two examples... you aren't going to be able to... and if you try they will arrest you.

Examples of the wonderful tollerance practiced by Islam. I bet they aren't barred from Visiting the Vatican, or even Jerusalem, much less arrested for trying.

What that stuff, move to Saudi Arabia or Iran where nobody has rights.
Doesn't sound like you want certain people to have any here either.

This is off-topic, but his records aren't being kept any more secret than your own are. The public doesn't have a right to see his personal records any more than the public has a right to see yours.

Funny, it seems that has ONLY applied to Obama... I seem to remember an uproar when George Bush didn't release his records fast enough.

Every other previous President not only was expected to... but did.

Besides, most of these records are not greatly private... College transcrips, Voting records... etc when he was in Illinoise... all of these SHOULD be public information. But of Course the Messiah is special and has something to hide NO other prior president had to hide. Not even the King of word Parsing Bill Clinton.

And Sorry... private citizens might have that right... not public officials in elected office.

Because #1...its a sybol of Islam very near to a major act of Islamic Terrorism. MOST americans view this as a VERY offensive action by Muslims with absolutely NO concern about the sensitivities and feeling of the entire American Nation, and an act of total Disrespect to this country and its people as a whoile. Most Americans DO feel that way...recent Polls in the last two days shows roughly 73% (with a small margin of error as no poll is 100% accurate) of the American public is very much against that Mosque.

Let me toss this out as an example. Say a ticked off Christian flew a plan into Mecca during the Pilgramage...kills a bunch of people...in a few years WE pay to build a HUGE Catholic Church near the site.....how would Muslims view that. I bet you would have thousands blowing themselves up to take it down. Of course there would be a few Muslims that might be fine with a church there....but if they said it in public they would be persecuted in their own land.


Now thats hypothetical since CHristians aren't allowed in Mecca or Medina, much less allowed to build a church there.....so much for repsect for other religions by Islam.

Not only Christains aren't allowed in Mecca, a lot of Muslims aren't either. Either way, America is supposed to be a symbol of freedom of religion. We are a melting pot nation that doesn't exclude others and we should know better than not to exclude other religions from our community. Also, not all Muslims are unaccepting of others- especially American Muslims. You are making generalizations of the whole religion by saying that Islam is unaccepting of others. The mosque my family belongs to allows anyone to come in- Christians, Jews, Hindus etc- and they even hold peace conferences. Obviously they want to be a part of the community and accept the majority of the nation especially if they are raising American-born children.

Also, just because the 9/11 attacks were committed by Islamists doesn't mean that the Muslims building the mosque are extremists. The trade center attacks were done by fundamentalist Muslims, not by Muslims who are trying to be part of a community.

If a Christain group had bombed the World Trade Center and if some other group of Christians wanted to build a church near there, no one would stop them because everyone would know that not all Christains are terriorists because they make up a large part of the world. The same should go for Muslims; Islam is the 2nd biggest world religion and there are mosques in every state in America. Plus there are probably more mosques in NY than in any other state. It shouldn't make too much of a difference if there's one down the street from ground zero.

Doesn't sound like you want certain people to have any here either.

Really... examples please... Foriegn Terrorism supporters have a "RIGHT" to build a Memorial to terrorists a stones thro=w from a site of Terrorism... but nobody has a right to protest against it.

After all where do you thing they are getting that 100 million dollars anyway?

Exactly where in the constitution does the left have exclusive rights to protest, and where are Conservatives disallowed the right to protest.

After all 8 years of BS from the left during Bushes terms seemed fine to you. Not to mention Obamas been in office tshy of 2 years and still accepts responsibility for nothing that has happened in that time. And the left believes nothing is his fault either.

Typical lefts double standards...

Illegals and foreign governments have more rights than any consrvative Americans have in their minds.

Not only Christains aren't allowed in Mecca, a lot of Muslims aren't either. Either way, America is supposed to be a symbol of freedom of religion. We are a melting pot nation that doesn't exclude others and we should know better than not to exclude other religions from our community. Also, not all Muslims are unexepting of others- especially American Muslims. You are making generalizations of the whole religion by saying that Islam is unexcepting of others. The mosque my family belongs to allows anyone to come in- Christians, Jews, Hindus etc- and they even hold peace conferences. Obviously they want to be a part of the community and except the majority of the nation especially if they are raising American-born children.

Also, just because the 9/11 attacks were committed by Islamists doesn't mean that the Muslims building the mosque are extremists. The trade center attacks were done by fundamentalist Muslims, not by Muslims who are trying to be part of a community.

If a Christain group had bombed the World Trade Center and if some other group of Christians wanted to build a church near there, no one would stop them because everyone would know that not all Christains are terriorists because they make up a large part of the world. The same should go for Muslims; Islam is the 2nd biggest world religion and there are mosques in every state in America. Plus there are probably more mosques in NY than in any other state. It shouldn't make too much of a difference if there's one down the street from ground zero.

An Islamic symbal to remind every breathing American that 9/11 was done by Muslims... every day.

And you can't see what a slap pin the face THAT is to almost every American.

Not only Christains aren't allowed in Mecca, a lot of Muslims aren't either. Either way, America is supposed to be a symbol of freedom of religion. We are a melting pot nation that doesn't exclude others and we should know better than not to exclude other religions from our community. Also, not all Muslims are unexepting of others- especially American Muslims. You are making generalizations of the whole religion by saying that Islam is unexcepting of others. The mosque my family belongs to allows anyone to come in- Christians, Jews, Hindus etc- and they even hold peace conferences. Obviously they want to be a part of the community and except the majority of the nation especially if they are raising American-born children.

Also, just because the 9/11 attacks were committed by Islamists doesn't mean that the Muslims building the mosque are extremists. The trade center attacks were done by fundamentalist Muslims, not by Muslims who are trying to be part of a community.

If a Christain group had bombed the World Trade Center and if some other group of Christians wanted to build a church near there, no one would stop them because everyone would know that not all Christains are terriorists because they make up a large part of the world. The same should go for Muslims; Islam is the 2nd biggest world religion and there are mosques in every state in America. Plus there are probably more mosques in NY than in any other state. It shouldn't make too much of a difference if there's one down the street from ground zero.

For one thing you're a confused person if you think that its freedom of religion when its about a zoning issue. The imam that wants to build the mosque already has one near that area already. Another thing is since your on this mode of thinking then why stop at any group wanting to build near ground zero right?? Well they have a pre existing greek orthodox church that was destroyed in the attatck and they wish to rebuild and are being prevented from doing so by being buried in red tape. Yet not a peep. Isn't that a bit discriminatory ?

Ref:

Greek Orthodox Church or Mosque: Ground Zero | WorldWideGreeks.com (http://www.greekboston.com/wordpress/2010/08/greek-orthodox-church-or-mosque-ground-zero/)

Really.....examples please....Foriegn Terrorism supporters have a "RIGHT" to build a Memorial to terrorists a stones thro=w from a site of Terrorism....but nobody has a right to protest against it.
They have a right to build, and you have a right to protest. Isn't that what you are doing right now? We aren't stopping you; we are simply disagreeing with you.

The imam that wants to build the mosque already has one near that area already.
How close by is that mosque?

How close by is that mosque?

Rauf already has a mosque in lower Manhattan. Masjid al-Farah is about 12 blocks from ground zero,

Ref:

Imam Behind NYC Islamic Center Absent Amid Debate : NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129304390&ft=1&f=1003)

An Islamic symbal to remind every breathing American that 9/11 was done by Muslims.....every day.

And you can't see what a slap pin the face THAT is to almost every American.

Still, the trade attacks are not an Islamic symbol as a whole. The Taliban is like a fudamentalist cult; it's not like any other Islamic sect. I guess you would have personally know a Muslim to know that.
It's like if The People's Temple blew up a building and a Catholic Church was built in place of it. I mean know one would have a problem with that.

Rauf already has a mosque in lower Manhattan. Masjid al-Farah is about 12 blocks from ground zero
How many Catholic churches are there within 12 blocks of Ground Zero?

An Islamic symbal to remind every breathing American that 9/11 was done by Muslims
No, not "Muslims" -- fundamentalist Muslims. It's like comparing snakehandlers in the NC mountains to mainstream Baptists.

How many Catholic churches are there within 12 blocks of Ground Zero?

Looks like at most 2 but the one is an offshoort of the other. One is a church and the other a chapel. Which may be for outreach to homeless etc.

Not sure on that. It says in the shadows of the towers so that's a pretty big radius.



Ref:

St. Peter's Parish: Death and Resurrection at Ground Zero - September 2003 Issue of St. Anthony Messenger Magazine Online (http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Sep2003/Feature2.asp)

They have a right to build, and you have a right to protest. Isn't that what you are doing right now? We aren't stopping you; we are simply disagreeing with you.

You fail to see that the difference between a right and a privlege is...

They DON'T have a RIGHT to build there. A constitutional right can't be infringed upon casually and the that happens at ever step of the way in building anything... and the people building it are the people paying for it... and exactly who is couching up $100 million dollars has been kept secret thus far.

The "Right" to build something is no different than your "RIGHT" to drive a car. A priveledge is not a right... there are in reality two very different things.

So sorry, Iran doesn't have the right to build a terrorist memorial in Manhattan, neither Does saudi Arabia. And its Certainly NOT being paid for by Americans for all anyone can prove... Osama Bin Laden is paying for it. After all... prove its not him by disclosing the full list of where that money is really coming from.

No, not "Muslims" -- fundamentalist Muslims. It's like comparing snakehandlers in the NC mountains to mainstream Baptists.

Muslims... they weren't Jews... they Weren't Christians... they weren't agnostics or Aetheists, they weren't Wicca... they were Muslim.

You fail to see that the difference between a right and a privlege is... The "Right" to build something is no different than your "RIGHT" to drive a car. A priveledge is not a right... there are in reality two very different things.
The U.S. Constitution says they have a right to build it there. They have met all local zoning regulations and will conform to applicable building codes. Smoothy and Emily Post may not like it, but they do have the right. My neighbors built their McMansion next to my driveway. They followed all the zoning ordinances and building codes. I don't like it, but it was their right to build it. We could have bought the corner lot, but my husband said no.

A constitutional right can't be infringed upon casually
Thank you!

And its Certainly NOT being paid for by americansm for all anyone can prove
But you don't know who is paying for it.

Osama Bin Laden is paying for it.
I can see now why excon said goodbye.

Besides, most of these records are not greatly private... College transcrips, Voting records...etc when he was in Illinoise...all of these SHOULD be public information. But of Course the Messiah is special and has something to hide NO other prior president had to hide. Not even the King of word Parsing Bill Clinton.

And Sorry...private citizens might have that right....not public officals in elected office.

I print college transcripts every day. EVERY day. Actually, I wish more people knew about the laws surrounding transcripts, because then I wouldn't get so many idiots yelling at me because I can't immediately email them their transcripts because they called me on the phone and asked me to.

Transcripts are VERY private. They are protected at LEAST as well as medical records, even if they are used for more things than medical records are.

Voting records ARE private--as they should be! I absolutely would NOT want someone to know how I have voted on anything. As a matter of fact, I don't tell people who I have voted for, or what propositions I have voted for, or who I am thinking about voting for. I will talk about issues I support, but my actual vote is PRIVATE, and I expect it to remain so.

And what basis do his transcripts or birth certificate or voting records have to do with anything? Anything he did as a private citizen SHOULD remain his own choice to reveal. Degrees, citizenship, and the fact that he is a registered voter can all be confirmed without violating his privacy. His votes AS a public official should be (and ARE) public. By this I mean if he voted as a representative of others, how he voted is public record. But his own private choices are HIS--and if we don't respect that in a president, how the HELL can you seriously expect it to be respected for anyone else?

PS--I don't like Obama as president at ALL. Every freaking thing the man has done has affected me, and usually for the worse. I hate the health care thing, I hate the flavored cigarettes thing, I hate how the economy has been handled. I still respect his rights as a citizen of this country, though.

How many Catholic churches are there within 12 blocks of Ground Zero?

Six that I could find.

Plus a Baptist? Church. Not sure of the denomination on the last one I found.

Six that I could find.

Plus a Baptist? church. Not sure of the denomination on the last one I found.
So one mosque that's already there is more than enough, apparently.

Still, the trade attacks are not an Islamic symbol as a whole. The Taliban is like a fudamentalist cult; it's not like any other Islamic sect. I guess you would have personally know a Muslim to know that.
It's like if The People's Temple blew up a building and a Catholic Church was built in place of it. I mean know one would have a problem with that.

The semantics doesn't matter to anyone... the fact is, THEY represented themselves as Muslims, THEY killed a over 3,000 people most of whom were not muslim. A new mosque anywhere near the Trade centers IS and will be viewed as a major Disrespect to all Americans by Muslims yet again. THere is no possible excuse for it that will be graciously accepted by MOST Americans... You want to fan the flames of hatered of Islam by Americans... by all means build it... thats exactly what you are going to get from that insult to Americans... it IS a recurring Symbol of the 9/11 attacks and its not even built yet... you think Islam is going to accomplish anything positive by plopping a victory symbol right next to a site where thousands of Americans and more than a few forigners were killed by Muslims.


And the fact remains however much you may dislike it... just because they didn't have 100% support... doesn't get them off the hook, there is never 100% support for any action ever taken that involves a large enough group... and historically that was NEVER a valid excuse...

Not all Nazi's committed Genocide or even liked Hitler... Not all Japanese supported or believed the Emporer, and so on throughout history.

And sorry but how ISLAM treats people of other faith world wide proves its not just a select few... but is common. Certainly not everyone is... but only a sucker or a fool blindly ignores reality... or History.

And after all, I have the right to determine what offends me... and a Mosque anywhere NEAR ground zero is offensive.

But you know what... unlike many of your Muslim brothers... we haven't decided to kill every Muslim involved.

But time and time again... let someone make a cartoon about Mohammed and the killing starts...

Not saying YOU supported them... in fact I'm willing to accept your statement you weren't, at face value. What I won't accept is apologies for the intent of the people insisting on building that Mosque and their motives behind it.

Smoothy--I'm going to start calling Catholic churches "terrorist memorials", in your honor.

So when almighty God has led you to the most reverend man our brother Bishop Augustine, tell him what I have long gone over in my mind concerning the matter of the English: that is, that the shrines of idols amongst that people should be destroyed as little as possible, but that the idols themselves that are inside them should be destroyed. Let blessed water be made and sprinkled in these shrines, let altars be constructed and relics placed there: since if the shrines are well built it is necessary that they should be converted from the worship of demons to the service of the true God, so that as long as that people do not see their very shrines being destroyed they may put out error from their hearts and in knowledge and adoration of the true God they may gather at their accustomed places more readily. Pope Gregory I

I realize that Wikipedia isn't the best source in the world, but it DOES give a good list in this case:

Christianised sites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianised_sites)

Don't talk to me about how they're building a "terrorist memorial". Christians stole pagan holidays, pagan holy sites and burned sacred groves and followers of pagan religions.

And by YOUR token---ALL Christians are responsible for these massacres and thefts and their churches (many built 1500 years ago) should all be pulled down because they are nothing but a memorial to the terror that they instigated in the people they conquered in the name of religion.

And funny--I don't feel one bit conquered by Islam. Maybe because I'm not living up to the fundamentalist's ideas of a hating, arrogant American.

So one mosque that's already there is more than enough, apparently.

You just don't get it, for the Muslim there must be a mosque nearby so they can go and pray, In a muslim country you will find a mosque in service stations, etc. they don't think about it as the Christian might, so they would expect to have them all over. We Christians think about our buildings as large structures just as we think about our churches as large organisations, but that is rarer among muslims

you just don't get it, for the Muslim there must be a mosque nearby so they can go and pray
I don't get what?

All they need is a space in which to pray. My living room can be a mosque. It can also be a church. A public school classroom can be a place to pray too.

The semantics doesn't matter to anyone...the fact is, THEY represented themselves as Muslims, THEY killed a over 3,000 people most of whom were not muslim. A new mosque anywhere near the Trade centers IS and will be viewed as a major Disrespect to all Americans by Muslims yet again. THere is no possible excuse for it that will be graciously accepted by MOST Americans....You want to fan hte flames of hatered of Islam by Americans...by all means build it...thats exactly what you are going to get from that insult to Americans...it IS a recuring Symbol of the 9/11 attacks and its not even built yet...you think Islam is going to accomplish anything positive by plopping a victory symbol right next to a site where thousands of Americans and more than a few forigners were killed by Muslims.


And the fact remains however much you may dislike it....just because they didn't have 100% support...doesn't get them off the hook, there is never 100% support for any action ever taken that involves a large enough group...and historically that was NEVER a valid excuse....

Not all Nazi's committed Genocide or even liked Hitler...Not all Japanese supported or believed the Emporer, and so on throughout history.

And sorry but how ISLAM treats people of other faith world wide proves its not just a select few...but is common. Certainly not everyone is...but only a sucker or a fool blindly ignores reality...or History.

And after all, I have the right to determine what offends me...and a Mosque anywhere NEAR ground zero is offensive.

But you know what....unlike many of your Muslim brothers...we haven't decided to kill every Muslim involved.

But time and time again....let someone make a cartoon about Mohammed and the killing starts...

Not saying YOU supported them...in fact I'm willing to accept your statement you weren't, at face value. What I won't accept is appologies for the intent of the people insisting on building that Mosque and their motives behind it.

First off, I have no clue what you mean by my "Muslim brothers"...
Also, you are again making generalizations of Islam as a whole. I agree with you that it "is common" for Muslims to treat other religions unfairly-but only in some countries; I don't think it is common in America for Muslims to hate Americans and if it was, I'm sure there would be a lot more attacks than there were. Most of the Muslims that come here are here for a better life and are not fundamentalists. I'm sure there are some, but I honestly don't think terrorists or anyone who hated America would want to come build a mosque here and raise American children.

I still can't see why people who came here for a better life or are American can't build a place of worship. Those people had nothing to do with 9/11. Just because the terrorists were Muslim and a completely different group of Muslims want to build a mosque there doesn't rule the idea as a disgrace; now it would be if the actual Taliban wanted to build a mosque there. I think that a lot of people are completely unaware of the drastic differences between Muslim sects and groups. I find the type of Muslim members of the Taliban to be the complete opposite, practically a different religion from other sects.

I'm sure building a mosque by ground zero will build hatred as you said, but I'm sure overtime, people will come to realize that it's no different from any other mosque and the whole issue is really pettily. Honestly, if it were up to me, I would never propose the idea of building a mosque there only because I already know that there are a lot of close-minded people out there, but if other people wanted it, I wouldn't turn against it or see it as a disgrace.

Answer already given by someone else

Hello again,

We invented religious liberty. That's WHY people come here. That's what makes this country great. Take away our freedoms, and Osama Bin Laden wins.

excon

Smoothy--I'm going to start calling Catholic churches "terrorist memorials", in your honor.

So when almighty God has led you to the most reverend man our brother Bishop Augustine, tell him what I have long gone over in my mind concerning the matter of the English: that is, that the shrines of idols amongst that people should be destroyed as little as possible, but that the idols themselves that are inside them should be destroyed. Let blessed water be made and sprinkled in these shrines, let altars be constructed and relics placed there: since if the shrines are well built it is necessary that they should be converted from the worship of demons to the service of the true God, so that as long as that people do not see their very shrines being destroyed they may put out error from their hearts and in knowledge and adoration of the true God they may gather at their accustomed places more readily. Pope Gregory I

I realize that Wikipedia isn't the best source in the world, but it DOES give a good list in this case:

Christianised sites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianised_sites)

Don't talk to me about how they're building a "terrorist memorial". Christians stole pagan holidays, pagan holy sites and burned sacred groves and followers of pagan religions.

And by YOUR token---ALL Christians are responsible for these massacres and thefts and their churches (many built 1500 years ago) should all be pulled down because they are nothing but a memorial to the terror that they instigated in the people they conquered in the name of religion.

And funny--I don't feel one bit conquered by Islam. Maybe because I'm not living up to the fundamentalist's ideas of a hating, arrogant American.So.. exactly WHEN was the last Catholic led Crusade? Islam is STILL doing exactly that, TODAY. Show me a Muslim majority nation anywhere in the world where they don't persecute non-muslims NOW? And in any case... the Crusades were in response to Islamic aggression of taking historically Christian lands by force and forcing its people to convert or die, Christianity was not the aggressor there.

No explanation or justification for the Spanish Inquisition however.

Remember Catholicism is not my religion. I'm Protestant and we don't answer to the Pope. The Pope isn't the leader of Christianity and Catholics don't hold the monopoly either. Christianity is fairly diverse.

And IF Islam is such a peaceful Religion and the so called Radicals don't represent most muslims... then exactly WHY don't they take care of them the same with the same vigor as they go after anyone who draws a cartoon of Mohammed or writes a book exposing them for who they really are like Salimon Rushdi?

If the Catholic Church ordered hits on any artist that did they same you would never hear the end of it. When Islam does it... the excuses start... its only individuals... its not all muslims even when Muslims brutally kill Christian missionaries with great regularity...

Its about damn time Islam is held accountible.

We can't celebrat Lee Jackson day in the south because Blacks are offended. But they and you are demanding we not only accept a Muslim Built Terrorist Memorial literally two blocks from ground Zero... and We don't have the right to object or be seriously offended.


Strange, but please show me exactly where in the Bill of rights that Muslims have greater rights than white conservative Christians do?

I for one am damn sick and tired of the left argueing Latinos have a RIGHT to violate our borders and ignore immigration law, I am sicjk and tired of being hearing excusing from blacks about slavery that not a single on of them or their parents, grandparents or even great grandparents were subject to... and not one solitart ancestor of mine was involved in either, I am sick and tired of having the CHristmas Holiday being destroyed by people that insist on NOT hearing about any Christian fascit of the holiday... and I am damn sick and tired about Muslims telling me what I can and can't be offended by.

You bring up the actions of a few priests... well, fine they aren't above being prosecurted... but while the Catholic church was forced to pay millions to those victims... Islam was never held to that same standard... exactly HOW MUCH money was paid by Muslims to the Victims families of 9/11 and to those who were not killed just because things didn't collapse as fast as they hoped.


I'll tell you, not one dollar was paid by muslims... nothing, nada, zip, niente. And now they need a New Memorial to Mohammed Attah... why? There is an existing Mosque in manhattan two blocks away, they can't argue there are NO mosques in that area... because there are. They can not justify a new one THERE...

And you know what... as far as you or anyone else can prove... its being Funded by Osama Bin Laden, and Iran. They haven't released where this money is coming from to anyone outside of their tiny circle.

After all... this whole topic is about Islam led disrespect of the United States and its citizens.

Religious liberty works both ways-Citizens are protected from the influence of religion on their liberty, like having to endure descecration of a monument that many Americans may choose to visit. This particular religion has a goal of destroying American freedom and has done a pretty good job so far. The line is drawn. This is a Joe Biden issue (a bfd!).

This particular religion has a goal of destroying American freedom and has done a pretty good job so far.Hello again, smear:

Let me see... You are AGAINST this American citizen exercising his Constitutional rights. He should be PREVENTED from building a mosque. Your JUSTIFICATION for DENYING him this freedom, is that his religion will destroy our freedoms.

Do I have that right?

excon

We don't have the right to object or be seriously offended.
You and some others seem to be doing just fine exercising your right to express your displeasure and be offended.

Strange, but please show me exactly where in the Bill of rights that Muslims have greater rights than white conservative Christians do?
Both groups have the same rights. Where do you see greater ones exercised by Muslims? Why do you wish to limit their rights? Because you don't LIKE them?

Protestant missionaries all over the world are telling people of other faiths and religions and with no religion that their beliefs/thinking is wrong and that they must change. If they don't change, they are harangued and vilified and ostracized.

You and some others seem to be doing just fine exercising your right to express your displeasure and be offended.

Both groups have the same rights. Where do you see greater ones exercised by Muslims? Why do you wish to limit their rights? because you don't LIKE them?

Protestant missionaries all over the world are telling people of other faiths and religions and with no religion that their beliefs/thinking is wrong and that they must change. If they don't change, they are harangued and vilified and ostracized.

You ARE giving greater rights to Muslims than to the rest.

Southerners are not allowed to fly anything resembling a Confederate Flag... because some people are offended. Mostly northern liberals and some blacks.

Well you know what MOST Americans are offended that Muslims insist on building a Memorial to Mohammed Attah two blocks from where he along with others killed over 3000 americans. And its not Americans paying to build it... Its Iran, Osama Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia. THEY have no rights.

You know what... why do you and a minority of Terrorist Memorial Defenders think Muslims have a special right that Americans seem to lack in theior own land.

And NO cHRISTIAN WOULD MAKE A WISECRACK LIKE THAT... exactly what in the hell do you think Muslims do? The differences is they kill you if you don't convert. Real friendly and nice religion that is... convert or die. Yeah, Islam the peaceful religion.

You know, we hear so much propaganda from Muslims about how peaceful their religion is...

So, why don't they go after and kill the extremeists among them with the gusto they seem to go after women for "Honor" killings
Or stoning a soman to death for talking with a man that not her husband or family...

How many Muslim Extremeists are stoned to death... I'd like to see links to stories.

How many Imamas that preach hatred are stonesd to death?

Or is it just that I'm correct... in that these extremist and Hatred preaching Imams are really revered as heroes? As so many thousands proved on TV in numerous muslim nations ON CAMERA on and after 9/11 in open CELIBRATION of the attacks..

I don't doubt that SOME muslims did not agree, I personally know some... I want to know that if THEY are in the majority, why have they not taken action to eliminate them like they seem top enjoy doing to women in such brutal ways under SHARIA law... which is Islamic Law.

Islam is not simply a religion... its a complete system of domination and subjegation of everyone in its path. Its far more than simply a religon.

Religons don't lay down LAWS, Religons don't tell you how to do business. Religions don't force you to live your life as they dictate or be mutilated or killed in the name of that religion. Islam does however. Yopu don't have civil rights under Islam... women in fact are not mens equals under Islam. THousands of women are mutilated and killed every year in the name of Islam, in most cases without proof and just the word of a paranoid and jealous husband.

And many Muslims intend to force that upon us slowly, like a frog in a pan of cool water slowly brought to a boil, before it relizes the danger its in, its too late.

Southerners are not allowed to fly anything resembling a Confederate Flag... because some people are offended. Mostly northern liberals and some blacks.Confederate Flag Controversy (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html#axzz0xACt7PV1)

The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.

You ARE giving greater rights to Muslims than to the rest.
How?


Confederate flag
What does this flag mean to you, smoothy?

"The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols." (infoplease.com)

"A Flag should be a symbol that everyone looks upon with the same stirring feelings of shared beliefs and shared commitment.

The American Flag which represents the phrase "All Men are Created equal" does that.

But, clearly, not all Americans can look upon the Confederate Flag with the same shared feelings.

To fly that flag on US Government property, is to endorse the government it stood for--a political counter-revolution to democracy--which sought to build a nation on the cornerstone of slavery." (ontheissues.org)

You can fly a Confederate flag on your own private property.

Confederate Flag Controversy (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html#axzz0xACt7PV1)

So what? Muslims have the right according to the left to offend the majority of americans with the Terrorist Memorial... but heaven forbid a few people be offended by the confederate flag which IS a sybol that is heald in high regard by southerners.

Incidentally... I'm a Yankee by birth... but I understand how southerners view the Confederate flag (I've lived down here long enough to "Get it")... not the BS created by Northerners who can't get over the fact they won the Civil war and continue to degrade the southerners as somehow Inferiour to the great Liberal intellect that is about as fictitious as Superman.

How?


What does this flag mean to you, smoothy?

"The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols." (infoplease.com)

"A Flag should be a symbol that everyone looks upon with the same stirring feelings of shared beliefs and shared commitment.

The American Flag which represents the phrase "All Men are Created equal" does that.

But, clearly, not all Americans can look upon the Confederate Flag with the same shared feelings.

To fly that flag on US Government property, is to endorse the government it stood for--a political counter-revolution to democracy--which sought to build a nation on the cornerstone of slavery." (ontheissues.org)

You can fly a Confederate flag on your own private property.

You spew the same liberal talking points that puts down anything they don't personally understand or like... YOU don't live in the south, so YOU don't get it. Funny how southerners are Sterotyped as dumb and slow... "we gotta take their flags from then or they may cecede again". What a crock.

I have to tell you that you find more good old fashioned common sense in one southern town than you find in entire regions elsewhere in the country.

And this is coming from a transplanted Yankee.


You ask "HOW?" You refuse to read threads do you.

Its NOT being Paid for by Americans... Its being Financed by "secret" overseas investors... which can only mean Iran, Saudi Arabia, Osama Bin Laden, and possibly drug money from the Taliban.

But THEY DON'T have the "Right" to build that memorial... and the left refuses to point out exactly WHERE in the Bill of Rights that anyone has the RIGHT to build anything, anyplace without opposition or being subject to anything.

And nobody answered what is the Difference between a right and a privilege. Since the left constantly talks about "RIGHTS" where no legal rights exist.

And the left loves to parse words... so... I want them to define what legally constitutes a RIGHT, vs a privilege.

I don't think Smoothy with his William T Sherman avitar can be accused of being too sympathetic to the southern cause.

YOU don't live in the south, so YOU don't get it.
No, I was just born and raised there (in the hills with the hillbillies, spitting out watermelon seeds and eating fried chicken with flour weevils on it). I'm a Tar Heel.

Funny how southerners are Sterotyped as dumb and slow...
This Tar Heel happens to be a member of Mensa. Do you know what that is? She spells words correctly too.

Its NOT being Paid for by Americans... Its being Financed by "secret" overseas investors
You do not know that. That has not been confirmed in any way, shape, or form.

But THEY have the "Right" to build that memorial... and the left refuses to point out exactly WHERE in the Bill of Rights that anyone has the RIGHT to build anything, anyplace without opposition or being subject to anything.
You're opposing it. Looks like you have rights.

The neo-Nazis have paraded in the Chicago heavily-Jewish suburb of Skokie. Those neo-Nazis have rights. The Jews protested but didn't stop them.

President Bush, less than a week after 9/11, visited the Washington mosque and declared that Islam is a religion of peace.

How many innocent Muslims have we killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? Oh, yes. We are bring freedom and democracy to them, so it's okay then.

There is a mosque less than 80 feet from where the plane flew into the Pentagon.

nobody answered what is the Difference between a right and a privilege.
Excon did, pages ago.

I'm a Yankee by birth
So what?

No, I was just born and raised there (in the hills with the hillbillies, spitting out watermelon seeds and eating fried chicken with flour weevils on it). I'm a Tar Heel.

This Tar Heel happens to be a member of Mensa. Do you know what that is? She spells words correctly too.

You do not know that. That has not been confirmed in any way, shape, or form.

You're opposing it. Looks like you have rights.

The neo-Nazis have paraded in the Chicago heavily-Jewish suburb of Skokie. Those neo-Nazis have rights. The Jews protested but didn't stop them.

President Bush, less than a week after 9/11, visited the Washington mosque and declared that Islam is a religion of peace.

There is a mosque less than 80 feet from where the plane flew into the Pentagon.

excon did, pages ago.

So freaking what... can you NOT read english or can you simply not understand it.

The ONLY legitimate excuse for a NEW mosque is as as a VICTORY symbol honoring the Terrorists. THey have an old masque two blocks from that one... are Muslims to damn stupid to find it? I don't think so... It will be erected in Honor of Mohammed Attah and his band of terrorists... and they have suckered a small group of Americans into believing that is a great Idea.

Really, 80 feet... Bullsh*t. I know what is in the area the Plane hit on the various levels, and the functions performed there did not include a Mosque a Chapel, restaurant or a nudie bar, that is elsehere in the Pentagon. And it isn't a mosque... Its a multi-denomination Chapel. Different religions have services on different days and times... in the same space.

So, the lefties will drop their Protests to using the Cionfederate flag on the state flags and locally.

I'll be waiting to hear them bring court cases to reverse their previous fights to deny the southerners the right to their Heritage, symbolised in that flag. But I'm not going to hold my breath... the left lies about everything, they believe anything they are told to believe, much like a majority of the Muslims... why would their leaders lie to them...

And after all, as long as Iran is funding Obamas Agenda, ever wonder where he got his MILLIONS, Illinoise Senate doesn't pay that kind of money and he didn't inherit it... and he certainly didn't EARN it, a democrat would defend the right of Muslims to impose Sharia on the USA for a buck and fight anyone that stood up for American values.

So freaking what....can you NOT read english or can you simply not understand it.You have very little respect for others than yourself, this much is obvious.


The ONLY legitimate excuse for a NEW mosque is as as a VICTORY symbol honoring the Terrorists. It's not a mosque, it's more akin to a YMCA. BTW your writing is atrocious.

The neo-Nazis have paraded in the Chicago heavily-Jewish suburb of Skokie. Those neo-Nazis have rights. The Jews protested but didn't stop them.

No they did not... I commented on that way back on comment #53 (page 6 )

Now for the record ,because some people may not be aware of the case , the Skokie, Ill. March did not actually happen in Skokie .The Nazis wanted to march there because there were a lot of holocost survivors in the town . SCOTUS ruled in favor of the Nazis.

But public pressure effectively applied ; the Nazi instead held 3 marches (poorly attended ) in the Chicago area and did not march in the area where it would've been most offensive.

There is a mosque less than 80 feet from where the plane flew into the Pentagon.

Nope . As Smoothy pointed out it is a room set aside for prayers. Anyone assigned to the Pentagon can use it ;including the Muslim members of the military .But it is not set aside exclusively for any religion.

the left lies about everything, they believe anything they are told to believe, Hello kettle:

Now, THAT'S funny.

Pot

So freaking what... can you NOT read english or can you simply not understand it.
You didn't apologize. You continue to disrespect me and put me down.

The ONLY legitimate excuse for a NEW mosque is as as a VICTORY symbol honoring the Terrorists.
Can't have a new mosque? This location on Park Pl. is already being used as a mosque, overflow from another one farther away.

My town of 50,000 has three Catholic churches and maybe 15 (or more -- didn't Google for a list) Protestant ones. Too many?

Really, 80 feet...
It's a mosque when Muslims use it, which they do frequently. Do you how often they pray?

You have very little respect for others than yourself, this much is obvious.

It's not a mosque, it's more akin to a YMCA. BTW your writing is atrocious.

Big damn deal.. The lefties show no respect to others... and never have.

We saw the lefts respect the last 8 years when Dan Rather was caught fabricating a story to bash Bush... that many lefties refuse to beive he did. Typical lefty actions... they never let facts get in the way of Party propaganda.

Hell the dumb SOB in the White house after almost TWO years still blames everyone else for everything HE is Presidentm has been for almost 2 years... the Democrats have been in the Majority in Congress for the last 4 years. If the left had any brains they would remind dumbo ears he is president... this is HIS watchm, and HIS responsibility... NOT somebody that's been in TX retired for almost two years now.

So? I'm not an English Major... did I ever make the claim that I was at any point since I joined this site 5 years ago? I'm an Engineer not a writer or english teacher.

What they Plan to Build is a Mosque... just because they plan to put something else in it as well doesn't change its Main Purpose, a Memorial Mosque honoring the 9/11 terrorists. There is an Existing Mosque two blocks away... they HAVE an existing place of worship.


And Besides, who would a YMCA even it it were if it were a YMCA in an area with NO residential Housing nearby?

YMCAs are only near residential housing developments? I didn't know that! LOL!

YMCA near New York, NY, United States - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=YMCA+near+New+York,+NY,+United+States&sll=45.954364,-66.645619&sspn=0.358508,0.891953&ie=UTF8&hq=YMCA&hnear=New+York&t=h&z=12)

Nope . As Smoothy pointed out it is a room set aside for prayers. Anyone assigned to the Pentagon can use it ;including the Muslim members of the military .But it is not set aside exclusively for any religion.
When Muslims pray, as smoothy said, a space is a mosque. Therefore, when this room is used as a place of prayer (how many times a day?), the space is a mosque.

When Muslims pray, as smoothy said, a space is a mosque. Therefore, when this room is used as a place of prayer (how many times a day?), the space is a mosque.Really, More lefty claims... You said its 80 fweet from where the Plane hit the Pentagon... right smack in the middle of an area where OTHER offices are located and have been, no figure out WHAT offices they are, I'm not telling you. Its NOT a publicly accessible area where you claim it was. Must be Invisible... or like the Tardis.

Do you think that the Pentagon is the Size of a Walmart or a little larger?

When it towers 15 stories over the site of the attack and is funded in an opaque manner by foreign sources ,then I'll be concerned about a triumphant mosque at the Pentagon.

YMCAs are only near residential housing developments? I didn't know that! LOL!

YMCA near New York, NY, United States - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=YMCA+near+New+York,+NY,+United+States&sll=45.954364,-66.645619&sspn=0.358508,0.891953&ie=UTF8&hq=YMCA&hnear=New+York&t=h&z=12)

Huge need for a YMCA near Office Building in a HIGH rent district... yeah, Manhattan needs another one of those.

The Mohammed Attah Memorial Mosque and YMCA. With a Dedication Plaque in the Lobby showing Paid for by Osama Bin Laden.

Really, More lefty claims.....You said its 80 fweet from where the Plane hit the Pentagon
"fweet"?

I'm a Republican.

Time for lunch. Bye for now.

"fweet"?

I'm a Republican.

Time for lunch. Bye for now.You know what... THAT will be VERY hard to prove... Unless you are a well known and ranking member in the Republican party aparatus. Because you have done nothing but bash the right and justify everything the left dreams up.

Not everyone is a fanatical extremist as it concerns politics. Some are more in the middle.

You know what....THAT will be VERY hard to prove......Unless you are a well known and ranking member in the Republican party aparatus. Because you have done nothing but bash the right and justify everything the left dreams up.
My word isn't good enough for you? I do not lie. I am a registered Republican and have never been anything else.

I haven't bashed anyone. (The eggs for egg salad are cooking.)

My word isn't good enough for you? I do not lie. I am a registered Republican and have never been anything else.

I haven't bashed anyone. (The eggs for egg salad are cooking.)

Well being this is online... we only have what we say. And you are entitled to and should maintain your anonymity. Basically, I'm NOT asking or wanting you to fax me a copy of it.

Maybe the intent wasn't bashing... but it did certainly come across that way.

Not everyone is a fanatical extremist as it concerns politics. Some are more in the middle.

Far more are ideologs (many aren't radicals... just gullible) who believe only what they are told to believe, usually by people who have an agenda and are less than truthful . Like any religious radical those people are dangerous.

There is a term for them... I think it was Stalin that coined it... "Usefull Idiots".

And Besides, who would a YMCA even it it were if it were a YMCA in an area with NO residential Housing nearby?

The people who understand that sometimes it's easier to go on lunch, or on your break from work. The same people that know sometimes there ISN'T enough people in a residential area who need a YMCA--but PLENTY of people will stop on their way home from work.

I think you're forgetting that people WORK in this area--and many people (like me) won't go back out to work out, or get involved, or whatever, if we go home first. Once I'm home, I'm home--but stopping to work out on the way home (and psst--my YWCA is in a business district) is MORE than feasible, it's desirable. If my lunch were a little longer, I'd go on my lunch every day instead of on the way home.

It doesn't need to be in a residential area to be used. Just ask the members of the many churches ALREADY in the vicinity of Ground Zero.

Jefferson had a hand in the constitution I believe and he recognized that the rights of all citizens must be considered, law or no law. I'll take him at what he said, not what others guess he might have been thinking, 200+ years ago.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
Thomas Jefferson