[kp2171]

I skipped it first, then skimmed through and slowed at the interesting parts.

I'm an active perpetrator of run-ons and posts-without-end, so I can't really criticize anyone for longevity.

Thanks for the post.

[Retrotia]

Morganite,

Perhaps I gave an insufficient example of Scripture to support my belief in the original sin.
What do you say about this one?
Romans 5:12-14 DEATH THROUGH ADAM, LIFE THROUGH CHRIST- Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

I did like your posts on Baptism though!

[Morganite]

Morganite,

Perhaps I gave an insufficient example of Scripture to support my belief in the original sin.
What do you say about this one?
Romans 5:12-14 DEATH THROUGH ADAM, LIFE THROUGH CHRIST- Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

I did like your posts on Baptism though!

When Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden where he walked and talked with god, he entered a fallen world in which God was no longer visible, and he became mortal, subject to death. As children of God we obtain our eternal and everlasting spirit from God (Hebrews 12.9) and our mortality through the loins of father Adam.

Adam was the first nmortal (with Eve) and as his earthly descendants we inherit mortality from him. That is, we must all die. But the immortal spirit continues to live, as the Bible tells us, and will eventually be reunited with our bodies in the resurrection.

It can be said that one result of Adam's transgression in the Garden is mortality and that we inherit mortality from him because of the Fall of Adam. However, there is not one jot of scripture that says that we also inherit one scintillae of guilt because of what he did wrong.

Each person is born into the world with a tabula rasa, having neither guilt nor sin inside them. It is not until a person is able to differentiate between rioght and wriong and exercise moral choices that he is capable of sinning. When he is, and only when he is, then baptism becomes necessary to commence the cleansing process and make the person clean by removing from him the consequences of sin.

If I dash a teaopot to the floor, I am doing wrong. If a two year old causes one to crash to the floor with his fumblings on the table, it is not a wrong thing he has done, only a misfortune. Through Adam, mortality came into the world, and through Jesus Christ, mortality is overcome and changed into immortality.

Thus, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive!" This is the great undoing of our mortality, our need to die.

Through the atonement of Jesus Christ the consequences of our sins are remitted, and we stand clean, justified, sanctified, able to withstand the presence of God. This is the great undoing of our sinning.

That is why Jesus is the Saviour, because he saves men from sin even as they are sinners.

However, I repeat: There is no doctrine of Original Sin - that is the sin and guilt of Adam fashioned into every man born into the world, as Augustine had it - in the pages of the Bible. To believe that dogma one has to close the Bible and open the writings of Augustine who invented Original Sin in what you will call an uncanonised book to press his doctrine of Grace upon the church.

In doing so, Augustine created a monster that has blighted Christianity ever since, because it holds that mankind is totally depraved and evil, when all humanity is not so. Such a low concept of man has plagued generations of Christians and robbed millions of any hope of salvation, especially when seen through they eyes of such as Calvin who concocted the dogma that some are chosen to be saved and some are chosen to perish, regardless of what they do in life.

Such a teaching is antithetical to Christianity, unbiblical, and divisive, besides being untrue. Whosoever will may come!

BTW - your prooftext would be appropriate if after the birth of Jesus men were no longer capable of sinning. Since we know that is not the case, your text does not really serve the purpose for which you have presented it. What this passage does do is to confim the wrongness of baptising children for they cannot either sin nor can they repent, and, as Paul said, where there is no law there is no punishment.

Let me quickly add that although Adam's disobedience in the Garden was the first sin (unless you count Eve's sin as a prior offence), but if Adam's was the first, hence the original, that does not make it the origin of Original Sin, which is another matter entirely.

M:)RGANITE

[emosometimes]

I know that you didn't want exactly other people like teens to answer this question but I think it would be better coming from the point of view from some one who was baptized as a baby.

I personally think that you should wait till they get old enough to understand the true meaning of God and what He is. I wish that I had the opportunity to decide but I didn't and I think maybe that's why I don't believe in God right now. I also think that if you get them baptized when they are older then they actually might think differently about who and what God really is. I didn't get this chance.

Hope you choose the right decision for your child

[JoeCanada76]

Thank you for your answer. That is what I want to do is make a decision that is best for him.

Joe

[intendedsighs]

I'm not a parent yet, but I do know what I'm going to do when I have my own children. I wont have them baptised as a baby, because I was baptised when I was about 9 years old, and being older and knowing what I was doing was a whole lot more meaningful. I dont believe that babies are born sinful..it's how they are raised nd if as they get older they make the right decisions. So therefore, I do not think that being baptised to "cleanse the body and soul" is necessary at such a young age.

[JoeCanada76]

I'm not a parent yet, but I do know what I'm going to do when I have my own children. I wont have them baptised as a baby, because I was baptised when I was about 9 years old, and being older and knowing what I was doing was a whole lot more meaningful. I dont believe that babies are born sinful..it's how they are raised nd if as they get older they make the right decisions. So therefore, I do not think that being baptised to "cleanse the body and soul" is necessary at such a young age.

Thank you for your answer. Much appreciated. Our son is 6 months old right now. Baptism is the last things on our minds right now. There are more important things to think about. Like you said as well, it is important to let the child make their own choice.

Joe

[Jeff Logan]

I don't like anyone making up my mind for me at any age. Parents should wait for their babies to grow up and decide on their own. :)

[JoeCanada76]

Thank you, I have been questioning my choice lately. My baby is almost a year old, but traditionally babies in my denomination get baptised as soon as possible.

Joe

[Retrotia]

I am not addressing infant baptism. I know some denominations go through sacraments.
I am addressing the" older" person's baptism.
While it shows identification with Christ, & I do recommend it, my non-denomination does not believe that baptism is necessary for salvation.
Getting Saved is not Just an Emotional Moment but a Life-Changing Experience

There are other denominations that believe this also.
BTW- did u ever hear Joel Osteen say at the end of his program, My friends if you said that prayer , we believe you are born-again, get yourself into a good Bible based church........AND HURRY UP & GET BAPTIZED BC YOUR SALVATION ISN'T COMPLETE WITHOUT IT!

[ActionJackson]

i know that you didn't want exactly other people like teens to answer this question but i think it would be better coming from the point of view from some one who was baptized as a baby.

i personally think that you should wait till they get old enough to understand the true meaning of God and what He is. i wish that i had the opportunity to decide but i didn't and i think maybe thats why i don't believe in God right now. i also think that if you get them baptized when they are older then they actually might think differently about who and what God really is. i didnt get this chance.

hope you choose the right decision for your child

I happen to love the idea that teens use their minds for things other than video games or drugs. I totally welcome your comments and opinions any time you feel lead to do so.

Secondly, let me commend you for having enough common sense to recognize the obvious. I asked someone who believes in infant baptism awhile back if it would be appropriate to baptize a drunk man who we might find in a gutter. Would it be appropriate to dunk him in water, say a few holy words over him, and celebrate that we just baptized someone who had no idea that he had just been baptized. The person I asked was offended by my question but failed to answer. Baptizing a baby is exactly the same thing. Baptism is a personal choice that is made by someone who has willingly and knowingly accepted Christ on his or her own. Nobody and I mean NOBODY can make that choice for you.

It's not too late for you to believe in God. I ask that you pray for truth, knowledge, and wisdom concerning this issue. God most certainly does exist and the fact that you are even in this thread discussing these things means that you have a little spark inside you that's burning just enough to make you wonder. Keep wondering and keep seeking.

I loved your post and you are welcome to return any time you like. If someone tries to push you around... let me know and I'll twist their ears.

[Hope12]

Hello Joe.

How are you doing?

This is a great question and very controversial in today society. Remember please this is my opinion according to what I understand the scriptures to say.

The apostle Paul foretold that a general “apostasy” from Bible Christianity would occur after the death of the twelve apostles. 2 Thess. 2:3, 6-12.

At 1 Timothy 4:1 Paul wrote: “The spirit says expressly that in after times some will desert from the faith and give their minds to subversive doctrines.”
How did “subversive doctrines” appear with regard to baptism? It was due to the adoption of beliefs from pagan Greek religion (Hellenism). The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says of the period following the death of the apostles:
“Alien elements came in from the outside world. Hitherto these had been carefully held in check by the filter of prophetic and New Testament religion. But now, using external agreement as a channel, they came in full flood. Baptism became a syncretistic mystery.”

As a result, early in the second century C.E. the pagan idea that baptism washes away sins and brings about “regeneration” crept into the Christian congregation. Illustrating this are the comments of Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E. concerning candidates for baptism: “They are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated.” “We may . . . obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed.”
To what did this blending of pagan beliefs with the Bible’s teaching about baptism lead? Greek scholar A. T. Robertson explains:
“Out of this perversion of the symbolism of baptism grew both pouring as an ordinance and infant baptism. If baptism is necessary to salvation or the means of regeneration, then the sick, the dying, infants, must be baptized.”

By the third century C.E. infant baptism had become a general church practice. Origen, in the third century, wrote: “Because by baptism native pollution is taken away, therefore infants are baptized.” Origen even claimed, incorrectly, that baptizing babies was “a tradition from the apostles.”


Highlights of the History of Infant Baptism
Date (C.E.) Event
c. 193 . Tertullian argues for adult baptism
253 . Council of Carthage declares that ‘babies
Should be baptized immediately’
412-417 . Debate between Pelagius and Augustine
Regarding ‘original sin’
417 . Council of Carthage condemns Pelagian view
As heresy. Infant baptism becomes a fixture
In Catholicism
1201, 1208 . Pope Innocent III writes in favor of
Infant baptism
1545-1563 . Council of Trent pronounces “anathema”
Upon anyone denying infant baptism
1794 . Papal bull Auctorem Fidei condemns
Jansenist Synod, which called limbo a
Heresy
1951 . Pope Pius XII stresses necessity of infant
Baptism by encouraging midwives to
Perform the rite in emergencies
1958 . Vatican decrees ‘infants are to be
Baptized as soon as possible’
1963-1965 . Second Vatican Council decrees salvation
Possible without baptism. Orders infant
Baptism rite revised
1980 . Vatican reinforces custom of infant
Baptism, saying it ‘knows no other way for
Children to enter eternal happiness’

So again the question comes to the surface, “should a Christian Baptize their infant son or daughter?

While the Bible does not allow for baptizing babies, it does show what parents must do to help their children to meet God’s approval. The Bible, at Proverbs 22:6, exhorts parents: “Train up a boy according to the way for him; even when he grows old he will not turn aside from it.”

The most important aspect of this training process is found in the apostle Paul’s words to parents at Ephesians 6:4: “Do not be irritating your children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah.” That means that parents must acquaint their children with the Holy Scriptures, which set forth Jehovah’s mind on matters.—1 Cor. 2:16.

Infant baptism is not taught in the Bible. It stems from the pagan superstition that baptism “regenerates” a person and cleanses him from past sin. However, the Bible teaches that it is, not baptism, but ‘the blood of Jesus, God’s Son, that cleanses us from all sin.’ 1 John 1:7; Acts 22:16

Also, it is not baptism, but “the discipline and mental-regulating of God” that qualifies a child to meet God’s approval.
Eph. 6:4
If you are a parent, will you make sure that your child receives that training?

If a Christian’s child should die before baptism, parents need not fear that he burns in hell or lingers in limbo. The Bible teaches that the dead are unconscious.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10: New King James Version (NKJV)
5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

Parents can thus take comfort in Jesus’ promise that “the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out” with the prospect of life in a restored Paradise.

John 5:28-29 (New King James Version)
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Infants fall under the protection of their parents. God has granted parents the fruitage of the belly, Children. Parents are responsible for their children spirituality until the child is old enough to be responsible enough to decide what they believe or disbelieve. Not one of us can save our child who is old enough to know right from wrong. Once a child can understand right from wrong, God hold them responsible for themselves. Notice these scriptures:

(Ezekiel 18:20) The soul that is sinning—it itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.

*** w53 11/1 p. 670 Questions From Readers ***
Shows that each individual, after reaching an age of responsibility, is judged on the basis of his own attitude and conduct. Early training and family environment can be a big help or hindrance to the offspring, and as a general rule children continue in the behavior patterns established during their formative years. (Prov. 22:6) Yet it is not always or invariably so, and upon reaching an age of responsibility the offspring acts on his own choices, regardless of how little or how much such decisions may be influenced by early training and environment. He adopts a certain course in life, and he is judged according to his own deeds. “God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap.” “He will render to each one according to his works.” Jesus showed that families would be divided over him, some choosing to follow him in Jehovah’s service and others of the family opposing: “I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother.” The Christian son of an opposing father would not bear the iniquity of his father, but would be favorably judged on the basis of his own Christian works

(Galatians 6:7) Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap;

(Romans 2:6) And he will render to each one according to his works:

Very young children who have not reached the age of responsibility are almost altogether the product of their parents through inheritance, with, additionally, the training and environment provided by the parents. Accordingly, God holds the parents responsible until the child reaches the age of responsibility for his own decisions and acts.

What the parents do as to their relationship with God therefore affects the entire family. Just as the law of men calls the parents to account for the acts of their minor children, so does God. If a child commits a crime, damaging property, the father can expect the police to be knocking on his door to bring charges against him and require that he pay for the damage.

Parents need to take their responsibility given to them by God very seriously. If a child is baptized as an infant, have they taken their stand on God’s side? Of course not, they are infants. Yet, the parent protects that child from harm and is responsible for their material and physical and emotional needs. How much more so would God not hold those parents responsible to protect their infants spiritual needs. Parents do this by acting spiritually wise in making their choices in life so as to be pleasing to God.

Thank you for reading this.

Take care,
Hope12
:)

[NeedKarma]

Anyone who has children knows that they have no spiritual needs whatsoever. They need love and nurturing and time spent with parents. But they are blissfully unaware of things spiritual and, in my opinion, they seem to be better off for it if they have proper loving parenting. If they believe that they require a religious aspect to their lives they may make that decision later in life when then can understand such matters.