[Emily94]

Your feeling is not unique, see Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's good to know there is other people who think the same as I do! Definantly reassuring that whatever happens after life, I'm not alone :)

[ScottGem]

"I'd rather live my whole life believing there is a god, and die and find out there is not, then live my whole life believing there is not a god, and die and find out there is"

They say there are no atheists in foxholes. ;)

I partially agree with your quote there. But my belief is simply in doing good. I believe that if I live a life that is ethical and moral. If I follow the "Golden rule" and if I help people and do good works, then if there is a god and an afterlife, I will be rewarded for having lead a good life. I do not believe that there is a god that requires you to worship him (her?) in any specific way. I especially do not believe in a god that will punish people simply because you didn't subscribe to the "right" religion or any religion at all. That's why I do not believe in organized religions. To me its all about how one lives their life, not how one follows a religion.

[paraclete]

They believe in nothing. It is the ultimate negative position, everything is meaningless, I'm just a pond scum a few million years advanced, what a negative position and the reality is we still have pond scum. Or alternatively I'm an advanced monkey, an ape with a brain, and yet we still have apes in their natural state. I have news for them I don't have an opposable thumb on my foot. I find such beliefs beyond reason and I know some very advanced thinkers do also.
''ok God created us, what is so difficult about there being a creator? A being who is greater than us. We are greater than the ant, We are greater than a microbe, so big in fact the microbe probably doesn't know we exist. How is it difficult to understand that God can exist in a similar relationship?

[TUT317]

They believe in nothing. It is the ultimate negative position, everything is meaningless, I'm just a pond scum a few million years advanced, what a negative position and the reality is we still have pond scum. or alternatively I'm an advanced monkey, an ape with a brain, and yet we still have apes in their natural state. I have news for them I don't have an opposable thumb on my foot. I find such beliefs beyond reason and I know some very advanced thinkers do also.
''ok God created us, what is so difficult about there being a creator? A being who is greater than us. We are greater than the ant, We are greater than a microbe, so big in fact the microbe probally doesn't know we exist. How is it difficult to understand that God can exist in a similar relationship?

It is interesting how close ScottGem has come to pointing out some important features of Kantian ethics. I was particularly interested in his idea of following the 'Golden Rule'. Scott goes on to say,"if I help people and do good works, then there is a God and an after life".

Interestingly enough this is Kant's position. The moral law (Golden Rule) requires people to be rewarded proportionately to their virtue. In day to day life people who are not virtuous may be happier than those who are. It is obvious to Kant and many other people that there are many things in this world which are unjust. It is equally obvious that many good people in this world are not rewarded for the efforts.

Kant therefore infers there must be another existence where these people can be rewarded. In other words, Kant's conclusion is that there must be a God and an eternal life.

The reason I have used paraclete's quote is to ask two questions.

Firstly, how does this show that Deists believe in nothing?

Secondly, what does Deism have to do with evolution?

Regards

Tut

[hheath541]

I don't believe in a god, persay. What I believe is that there is a cosmic energy, that I choose to call 'the universe,' behind everything. I don't, necessarily, believe that it's sentient, or cares what goes on here on earth. I don't worship it. Sometimes, when I feel the need or desire, I will ask it for help or thank it for helping me.

Do I believe it hears me every time? no. do I believe it can hear me? Yes. Do I believe it cares? Sometimes.

Now, I'm not sure what I believe for the afterlife. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I also don't believe that death is the end. I sit somewhere between reincarnation and the concept of nirvana (where your soul's energy joins the great cosmic energy and 'self' ceases to be).

[NeedKarma]

They believe in nothing. It is the ultimate negative position, everything is meaningless,

I'm sorry to hear that if you didn't believe in your god then you think your life is meaningless. I guess you have a vested interest in having faith.

[ScottGem]

They believe in nothing. It is the ultimate negative position, everything is meaningless,

That, to me is a very negative outlook. Personally, I don't believe in nothing, nor do I feel I am being negative. I do believe that that doing good has its own rewards. I do not need the belief in a god or a nirvana to inspire me to do good. I take pleasure in knowing I have done good.

it is interesting how close ScottGem has come to pointing out some important features of Kantian ethics. I was particularly interested in his idea of following the 'Golden Rule'. Scott goes on to say,"if I help people and do good works, then there is a God and an after life".

I don't know if this was a typo or whether you were citing Kantian ethics. But you left out a very important word in your quote of what I said. I actually said "If I help...then IF there is a God". That IF is central to my belief because I will only find out after I die. Ergo, I go the opposite to Kant. Because I believe that evil sometimes goes unpunished and good sometimes goes unrewarded, that infers to me that there is no God, at least not one that is watching over things gently guiding what happens in this plane of existence.

[TUT317]

I don't know if this was a typo or whether you were citing Kantian ethics. But you left out a very important word in your quote of what I said. I actually said "If I help...then IF there is a God". That IF is central to my belief because I will only find out after I die. Ergo, I go the opposite to Kant. Because I believe that evil sometimes goes unpunished and good sometimes goes unrewarded, that infers to me that there is no God, at least not one that is watching over things gently guiding what happens in this plane of existence.

Hi Scott,

Sorry for the misquote. You know what you believe better than anyone else.

I could see an interesting parallel when I read about the 'Golden Rule'.
Kant would call this rule the categorical imperative.

This also brings to light something I have not thought of in the past. That is, to what extend could we say that Kant was a Deist?

Regards
Tut

[inthebox]

This concept of doing good and not doing bad, of right and wrong, is universal. Where does it come from? Who determines what is good or bad? Or the degree of goodness or badness? How much goodness do you have to do to outweigh the bad? What is the point of all this "morality" if this is it. You live you die. You decompose just like an ant or a dog etc. There is no God. What if what you or what we thought of as good, is really bad by God's standard? How do you know what God has planned for you if you were good or bad? What if there is an afterlife, but what is heaven for you is hell for me?

Agree with the OP.


G&P

[hheath541]

What if there is an afterlife, but what is heaven for you is hell for me?

If there is a heaven, then I think it would different for everyone. In order for it to truly BE heaven, it would have to be somewhere you would love to spend the rest of eternity. Since not everyone could ever possibly agree on something like that, it would have to be different for everyone.

One person may see rolling fields and hills and woodlands as far as the eye can see. Another may see disney land. Another may be on a boat in the middle of the ocean. Another could be at the top of a mountain looking down on the clouds. Another may be in a nightclub hosting an eternal orgy.

[paraclete]

ocean. another could be at the top of a mountain looking down on the clouds. another may be in a nightclub hosting an eternal orgy.

You have just described a vision of hell because if that is what you think is heaven then you ain't going

[Alty]

You have just described a vision of hell becuase if that is what you think is heaven then you ain't goin

Thankfully that's not your decision to make. :)

I'm a Deist but I have an open mind.

As for what I believe, I believe in myself, my family, the love in people, the goodness in the world. I have very strong beliefs, they just aren't the same as a Christians belief. That doesn't mean that my life has no meaning or purpose, in fact it's quite the opposite.

[TUT317]

This concept of doing good and not doing bad, of right and wrong, is universal. Where does it come from? Who determines what is good or bad? or the degree of goodness or badness? How much goodness do you have to do to outweigh the bad? What is the point of all this "morality" if this is it. You live you die. You decompose just like an ant or a dog etc. There is no God. What if what you or what we thought of as good, is really bad by God's standard? How do you know what God has planned for you if you were good or bad? What if there is an afterlife, but what is heaven for you is hell for me?

Agree with the OP.


G&P

Hi inthebox,

A very good question. Is it possible to have a theory of morality which is universal without it being imposed from an outside agency. Kant would say that we can.

The key question for Kant is what is the difference between a person who acts morally and a person who does not? The answer for Kant lay in distinguishing between acts done from impulse and acts done from a sense of duty. Only acts done from impulse( inclination) and acts done from a sense of duty indicate that a person is a free agent.

By this Kant means that if we are forced to act in a moral way because of punishment in this life or the next then we are not a free agent.

Hheath's example of the nightclub is an interesting one. Someone who goes to a nightclub for a 'fun time' has the choice of going or not going. If they decide to go even though they feel it is morally wrong they have at least made a decision. The question then becomes, is this choice moral or immoral? No doubt some people would say that there is nothing immoral about this sort of activity.

How can we make a decision about this type of activity? Is it universally right or wrong? It is not good saying that it is good for some and bad for others.

Kant would put this to the test by saying that every action must be judged in light of how it be if it were to become a UNIVERSAL CODE OF BEHAVIOUR.

[excon]

If people don't believe in God or a God what do they believe in?

hello e:

Why do I have to believe in anything? Oh, I believe some stuff - like when it's dark I believe the sun is going to come up.

excon

[NeedKarma]

You have just described a vision of hell becuase if that is what you think is heaven then you ain't goin

I think that's an example of the attitude that keeps people away from churches and religion.

[Alty]

I think that's an example of the attitude that keeps people away from churches and religion.

Exactly! The whole fire and brimstone thing isn't very appealing. ;)

[spitvenom]

I believe in myself. I went to catholic school for 9 years (K through 8) and the one thing I learned was these people are full of it. Plus I punched a priest and have never been and will never be sorry for doing it. So I guess that (plus many many other things I will not discuss) rules me out of heaven since I gave one of god's boys a bloody lip.

[mugger]

why do people need justification in something like this. Religion = politics. Always has, always will. Politics is a system of beliefs and ideals- oh wait, that's what religion is. How much more simple can it get?
I like spitvenom's post. "I believe in myself".
why people need to debate over whether santa claus exists is beyond me. Sorry if I offend, but that's my stance.

[hheath541]

You have just described a vision of hell becuase if that is what you think is heaven then you ain't goin

If you reread my post, you'll see that I was giving examples of what people might see as heavenly (ie. Somewhere they would like to spend eternity).

If you go back and read my original post in this thread, you'll see that I don't believe in heaven at all. I have no desire to go to heaven. I find the typical christian view of heaven boring and suffocatingly fake. When I said as much in church when I was about 13-14, it did not go over well.

[shazamataz]

I don't believe in God.
I believe in science and evolution.

I do not know how life started exactly... no-one does, but I don't think it was created by some all-powerful being.

I respect that people do believe that, but to be honest, it just sounds silly to me how some people devote their entire lives to something that may or may not exist.

And if there is a God, (for those who believe) who created God?
He couldn't have just appeared one day.