[Lilywhite]

Hi and a happy new year.

I´m in my late forties, divorced with two daughters. I´m single, but I don´t seem to have enough self-confidence to build up and maintain a good love relationship.

It´s a strange dilemma. On the other hand, career-wise, I have reached very high levels, money-wise as well. I´m proud of myself because I was a drug addict and a juvenile delinquent, but have been clean and sober with the help of AA and other self-help organization for 17 years. Although I come from a wealthy family, I almost ruined my life, but after I became clean I got myself through University and built up my career from then on. I work in the academic and cultural field, organizing cultural events on a big scale and publish books. I travel once or twice a year to exotic countries.

I wish my personal life was in such a good order. Although I do have a good social life and many close friends, I cannot seem to get over my commitment phobia when it comes to men. I seem to have an emotional life of a thirteen-year-old.

This is incredibly difficult to write, but here goes: When I meet new men I´m attractive to, I feel shy, I bite my nails, giggle and avoid them. I cannot face them. Next time I see them, I try to project the image of the successful and professional woman, because that´s all I feel I have. When they show interest, I withdraw. Then I try to seduce them with make-up and clothes. I was a model in my twenties, but couldn´t stand that world and thankfully left it. I learned however lots of beauty tricks and when I´m socializing with men, I feel I´m still stuck in that world. What I´m trying to say is that I feel empty and I think I have nothing to offer but the physical side of me, my mask.

Men get confused around me. That is to be expected. I have lately realized that men who are attracted to me block out my professional accomplishments. They just concentrate on my physical side, although they don´t seem to want to connect to me, not even on a sexual basis. I tend to attract men who have similar problems, so my love life has been going nowhere for years.

I´m completely lost. Years of therapy, more self-help groups than I can count, and I´m still stuck!

I really do hope some one can help or offer some insight. It means a lot to me.

Thanks,

Lily

[ordinaryguy]

Well, I like you, Lily, and I've never even seen your "physical side". What I like most is your courage and your willingness to be brutally honest with yourself. A lot of people flounder around for years without ever getting past the temptation to lie to themselves and make excuses and blame other people for their shortcomings and unhappiness. Being honest with yourself doesn't immediately solve all your problems, but without it, you can't even begin. So I salute your honesty and your courage, and I think you have come farther and may be closer to a breakthrough than you might imagine. Don't give up, don't sell yourself short, and don't hang out with people who put you down or disrespect you. Keep in touch. I'll cheer for you any time you need to hear it.

[Lilywhite]

Thank you so much for your answer, Ordinaryguy.

I really appreciate this. I decided to go to the book store and get a good book on fears of commitment and self-esteem. I´ts called in English "How to raise your self-esteem" by Nathaniel Branden. It´s here beside me as I work.

I also ordered two other books on Amazon.

What I find peculiar is that I have no fears when I need to teach, give lectures, talk in public or greet new people at a social gathering. It´s only when I meet someone I´m attracted to I regress and become a neurotic child.

Usually these things go together, according to the self-help books, but I have no problems in my professional or social capacity.

I´m now "observing" myself and how I interact with men, but the fears are so deep-rooted, I see only fog when I try to search my mind. It´s like the mind doesn´t want to think about it.

Any thoughts how to break through this fog?

Best regards,

Lily

[ordinaryguy]

What I find peculiar is that I have no fears when I need to teach, give lectures, talk in public or greet new people at a social gathering. It´s only when I meet someone I´m attracted to I regress and become a neurotic child.

I´m now "observing" myself and how I interact with men, but the fears are so deep-rooted, I see only fog when I try to search my mind. It´s like the mind doesn´t want to think about it.

Any thoughts how to break through this fog?

Well, normally I would suggest a professional counselor or therapist, but you've said in your other thread that you're going that route already, and have done it in the past as well. I should emphasize that I'm not a trained counselor, so take what I say with an appropriate degree of skepticism and test it against your other resources. As best I know, the mainstream psychological approach looks to your past experiences, especially childhood experiences, to uncover the roots of these fears and insecurities. Presumably you've been all through that already without any real breakthrough, is that right? If so, I doubt that anything we could do here would hit paydirt where you have already spent so much time digging, so let me take a slightly different tack.

How sure are you that the deeper issues involved are actually about commitment in emotional relationships after all? These areas of life get a lot of attention in the popular culture, but there's a lot more to health, happiness and a meaningful life than whether we have someone to cuddle with and tell us we're wonderful. Sometimes we allow relationships and their attendant maintenance costs to consume our entire emotional budget leaving nothing for more spiritual or idealistic aspirations and longings. Suppose you did have a nice, secure committed relationship with a wonderful considerate caring man. Are you really sure that would satisfy the thirst you're trying to quench?

[harlysdream66]

Hi and a happy new year.

I´m in my late forties, divorced with two daughters. I´m single, but I don´t seem to have enough self-confidence to build up and maintain a good love relationship.

It´s a strange dilemma. On the other hand, career-wise, I have reached very high levels, money-wise as well. I´m proud of myself because I was a drug addict and a juvenile delinquent, but have been clean and sober with the help of AA and other self-help organization for 17 years. Although I come from a wealthy family, I almost ruined my life, but after I became clean I got myself through University and built up my career from then on. I work in the academic and cultural field, organizing cultural events on a big scale and publish books. I travel once or twice a year to exotic countries.

I wish my personal life was in such a good order. Although I do have a good social life and many close friends, I cannot seem to get over my commitment phobia when it comes to men. I seem to have an emotional life of a thirteen-year-old.

This is incredibly difficult to write, but here goes: When I meet new men I´m attractive to, I feel shy, I bite my nails, giggle and avoid them. I cannot face them. Next time I see them, I try to project the image of the successful and professional woman, because that´s all I feel I have. When they show interest, I withdraw. Then I try to seduce them with make-up and clothes. I was a model in my twenties, but couldn´t stand that world and thankfully left it. I learned however lots of beauty tricks and when I´m socializing with men, I feel I´m still stuck in that world. What I´m trying to say is that I feel empty and I think I have nothing to offer but the physical side of me, my mask.

Men get confused around me. That is to be expected. I have lately realized that men who are attracted to me block out my professional accomplishments. They just concentrate on my physical side, although they don´t seem to want to connect to me, not even on a sexual basis. I tend to attract men who have similar problems, so my love life has been going nowhere for years.

I´m completely lost. Years of therapy, more self-help groups than I can count, and I´m still stuck!

I really do hope some one can help or offer some insight. It means a lot to me.

Thanks,

Lily

Your problem is two fold, you never have been yourself, ever , it a big cover up
And two , you don't try to be yourself... however, today is your day ,
First you need a plan , in your work , you can do wonders, you please people, because that's easy ? Correct me if I'm wrong , but really you need to please you , and only you
Us guys want the real you , yes we do, the tears, the giggles are fine, that s only you been a little uneasy... try this why you talk to men, think about your life,and ask yourself, how would they inprove yours , sex nah maken you coffee in bed Sunday morning , sounds better , we all want the same thing , to be normal, time to start to learn just to do that ,take off the make up . Just be you, and people will see you for yourself... and we all want that... don't we , just you...

[Lilywhite]

Ordinaryguy, thanks again for taking the time to look at my dilemma.

Therapy has been a blessing and helped me get on my feet to do what I always wanted: Work in the academic field, teach and share my knowledge with people. I reclaimed my self-respect, which I lost when I was doing drugs and getting into trouble... and got me out of that model business, which was a soul-destroying experience.

However, therapy has not yet helped me to get in touch with the emotional need to build up love relationships. I was raped and sexually abused since I was a child, but I don´t look at myself as a victim. I think it´s more important to look ahead than picking at old wounds. Therapy helped me to realize that, because for a long time I was in that victim mode and it didn´t get me anywhere.

I was raped mostly when I was doing drugs and hanging out with people on drugs, and that is something I have to take some responsibility for, although I am not justifying rapists, not at all! Rape is a horrible crime. I volunteer at a women´s crisis shelter, to help other women, and I give lectures regularly where I talk about the necessity to build up strength to meet adversity such as being a victim of a crime.

As for spirituality and ideologial aspiration, that is very important for me and always will be. I work on that regularly, but not enough at the moment.

It´s an interesting thought, and I want to think about it some more. I do not think it is likely to meet an ideal man, not because I´m bitter, but I think it would be possible to meet someone who could be a good friend and a lover. I´m not looking to get remarried. I have my own property, children and a career, so I´m all settled there. I just think it would be a challenge for me at this stage to change a vicious cycle of meeting unavailable and uncaring men. I want to be able to trust again.

Thanks Harlysdream, for your honest answer. I often think I don´t know who I am, but I´m learning and willing to go for the challenge of getting more in touch with myself.

Thanks again for great inputs.

Love,
Lily

[ordinaryguy]

I was raped and sexually abused since I was a child

How old were you the first time it happened, and who did it? Was it somebody you knew and trusted?

but I don´t look at myself as a victim. I think it´s more important to look ahead than picking at old wounds. Therapy helped me to realize that, because for a long time I was in that victim mode and it didn´t get me anywhere.

I agree that it's easy to overdo dwelling on the past. Still, certain deep betrayals, especially in childhood, can leave scars that interfere with healthy adult relationships in ways that aren't immediately obvious, and may take a lot of time and attention to truly understand and transcend.

As for spirituality and ideologial aspiration, that is very important for me and always will be. I work on that regularly, but not enough at the moment.

It´s an interesting thought, and I want to think about it some more.

It just comes down to putting first things first and keeping your real priorities clearly in mind. Waiting to follow your spiritual path until you can satisfy your emotional needs may result in doing neither satisfactorily. But if you focus on fulfilling your higher purposes first, the more mundane dimensions of life may fall into place without much conscious effort at all. To an extent this may have already happened with your education, career and so on.

I think it would be possible to meet someone who could be a good friend and a lover. I´m not looking to get remarried. I have my own property, children and a career, so I´m all settled there. I just think it would be a challenge for me at this stage to change a vicious cycle of meeting unavailable and uncaring men. I want to be able to trust again.

I think it's not only possible, but likely. The outer world surely and faithfully reflects our inner state of being, and you seem well along in the work of healing, inner harmony and self respect. Be gentle and patient with yourself. There really is no hurry.

[George_1950]

I recall the name, Nathanial Branden, from some reading I did years ago. I read a book by him, but do not think it made much of an impact. I am curious about your assessment of his writing. I would think you should date lots of different guys, from different jobs and professions. These dates should be on a 'superficial' basis, with you not looking for anything longterm.
You wrote: "Men get confused around me. That is to be expected." May I ask, why and how do you know these men are confused? And, why is it to be expected? I got lost right there.

"I have lately realized that men who are attracted to me block out my professional accomplishments. They just concentrate on my physical side, although they don´t seem to want to connect to me, not even on a sexual basis." Again, I am having some difficulty; if a man is attracted to you, why would he block out your professional accomplishments? And if a guy is concentrating on your physical side, how would he not be interested in you sexually?


"I tend to attract men who have similar problems, so my love life has been going nowhere for years." So much for 'opposites attract'. I am having trouble with the assertion that you are attracting men who have similar problems; it sounds as though you are dating men in a small group, rather than fellows from a larger community.

What might help me would be if you could get away from sweeping generalities and isolate an instance of where you have questions about something that happened in the past. I hope I didn't confuse you with this.

[Lilywhite]

Ordinaryguy,

How old were you the first time it happened, and who did it? Was it somebody you knew and trusted?

I was six year old and it was an elderly neighbor who would babysit me sometimes. I liked him so I kept seeing him. The abuse stopped when he died. I was nine. I talked it over with my mother when I was older and it was good for both of us.

Nothing good comes out of digging into the past, I find. The most important thing is to build a good life, concentrate on reaching your goals and the rest will follow. You´re absolutely right - thanks again for being so thoughtful.

George,

I will try to be clearer. I am just beginning to work on this issue, so I´m probably very unclear. Sorry about the confusion.

"Men get confused around me. That is to be expected." May I ask, why and how do you know these men are confused? And, why is it to be expected? I got lost right there.

The men I´ve known have told me they get confused around me. They say they don´t understand what I want from them or what to expect from me. They say I attract them, then I withdraw from them.

"Again, I am having some difficulty; if a man is attracted to you, why would he block out your professional accomplishments? And if a guy is concentrating on your physical side, how would he not be interested in you sexually?"

The men who are attracted to me never mention my professional accomplishments. They avoid talking about my symposiums, the books and articles I´ve written, the events I organize. They just flirt with me. They talk at length about their own works and publications and when I mention my own work, they nod and say "of course", but then they change the subject and start flirting again.

"What might help me would be if you could get away from sweeping generalities and isolate an instance of where you have questions about something that happened in the past. I hope I didn't confuse you with this."

Here is an example: Once I was organizing a big cultural event and worked with a man I was attracted to. He seemed to feel the same way. We had dinner together and he told me he was married but looking for a divorce. He said he would contact me when he would be free.

I didn´t take him seriously and soon forgot about him. Two years later we met when we were working together again. He told me he was free and had divorced his wife. We started an affair that lasted four months. The coming Christmas we were supposed to meet in my home town, Paris. I was in Nice with my family. I came to Paris like an idiot, but he was not there. I phoned him and he told me he had been called to Hungary for some event. Anyway, he kept wanting to meet me and then not showing for some time. I kept asking him for the real reason and it finally came out.

His wife was pregnant when we started our affair and that Christmas, he was at the birth!

He still calls and sends presents. I send them back and hang up when he calls.

Then I had eight similar experiences in a row, all ending with finding the men in bed with the former wife or former girlfriend, or the "ex-wife" was giving birth, in two cases due to In Vitro Fertilization programme.

This has hurt like hell, but I will overcome this. That is why I´m so grateful for your replies. Thanks again.

Lily

[ordinaryguy]

I was six year old and it was an elderly neighbor who would babysit me sometimes. I liked him so I kept seeing him. The abuse stopped when he died. I was nine.

Those years are some of the most formative and important in coming to an awareness of one's emotional identity. I can't imagine that this experience is anything less than hugely important in laying down subconscious and probably largely unconscious patterns in your psyche.

I talked it over with my mother when I was older and it was good for both of us.

How old were you when you discussed it with her? Why was it good for her to talk about it? Did she have any idea it had happened? What did she have to say about it? What about your dad? When did he find out about it and what was his reaction? You mentioned that he died recently. What was your relationship with him like as a child, and how did it change after you became an adult?

A lot of questions, I know, and if you don't feel comfortable going into it, I certainly respect that. Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not discuss it "publicly" (even if it is anonymous), or ignore them altogether. I won't take offense, I promise. As I said, I'm not a trained therapist and I'm not trying to play one, but this just seems like such a major thing that I can't help but wonder how you've dealt with it. If you tell me that you haven't really examined it, but it isn't a big deal and has nothing to do with your fears of intimacy and commitment, I'll be pretty skeptical.

Nothing good comes out of digging into the past, I find.

How much digging have you done on this particular experience and time? Have you discussed it in depth and over a period with a therapist? If you haven't already spent a considerable amount of time and attention on it, I'm going to have to disagree that nothing good can come of digging into it. I suspect that this is a major source of the "mind fog" you mentioned earlier:

I´m now "observing" myself and how I interact with men, but the fears are so deep-rooted, I see only fog when I try to search my mind. It´s like the mind doesn´t want to think about it.

What was/is your relationship with your ex-husband like? Did you have commitment fears going into that marriage? How long were you married? Why did you get a divorce?

The most important thing is to build a good life, concentrate on reaching your goals and the rest will follow.

Building a good life, setting and reaching goals, these are good things, of course, but they are outward-directed activities and don't necessarily to heal your inner child and allay the awful fears of betrayal and abandonment that can be so damaging to intimate adult relationships.

Then I had eight similar experiences in a row, all ending with finding the men in bed with the former wife or former girlfriend, or the "ex-wife" was giving birth, in two cases due to In Vitro Fertilization programme.

Wow. Eight in a row. That might be some kind of record.

The more often a theme is replayed in our outer experience, the more likely it is that the real cause if it is within ourselves. Until that cause is uncovered and understood, the pattern keeps repeating. It's time, don't you think?

[Lilywhite]

Ordinaryguy, thanks.

Well, I asked for help, input and feedback, and you´re right, this must be dealt with. I have a lot on my plate right now, and need help in another department, so I will answer few of the questions now, the rest tomorrow.

I must say I really appreciate your feedback and interest in this problem. It´s very valuable to me.

"I can't imagine that this experience is anything less than hugely important in laying down subconscious and probably largely unconscious patterns in your psyche."

For sure. The influence of this will be with me all my life. This man robbed me of my innocence and made me sexually active much too soon. He damaged me more than I would have thought, but I was also raped many times in my teens. I managed to fight some of the rapists off and I learned self-defense, which was empowering.

I have been in therapy all my life in one way or another because of the abuse and all the rapes. At first I was in denial and did drugs. When I got sober, I didn´t want to think about it, but I had all this rage inside of me. I then started AA and therapy and it has been ongoing since 1992.

"How old were you when you discussed it with her? Why was it good for her to talk about it? Did she have any idea it had happened? What did she have to say about it? What about your dad? When did he find out about it and what was his reaction? You mentioned that he died recently. What was your relationship with him like as a child, and how did it change after you became an adult?"

I told my mother what had happened when I was in my thirties. She didn´t know about it and was deeply shocked. She decided to go into therapy for two years to deal with it and it turned out to be very beneficial for herself. Her life developed in a way she hadn´t dreamed of and it healed our relationship. After it happened, I never trusted her. I felt she allowed it to happen because the mother is somewhat omnipotent in the mind of a child.

My father never knew. We discussed other issues, like his irresponsible lifestyle when I was growing up, and how distant he was, how he travelled whenever he wanted without thinking of us, had mistresses and so on. When he died, we separated as friends. Now I want to think of the good memories from my childhood, when he took me with him on his travels, how wonderful he could be and how much he loved me. despite everything.
"How much digging have you done on this particular experience and time period? Have you discussed it in depth and over a period of time with a therapist? If you haven't already spent a considerable amount of time and attention on it, I'm going to have to disagree that nothing good can come of digging into it. I suspect that this is a major source of the "mind fog" you mentioned earlier:"

I feel I have done as much digging as possible. I was even psychoanalyzed, but that didn´t help. I was in anger management, had hypnosis, Cognitive Behavior Therapy - which benefitted me the most, I think. I faced my anger at the perpetrators, broke through my denial, started to build up trust issues, but that hasn´t been possible and that´s where I am right now.

If it needs more digging, I´m not sure I´m up for it. The deep depression that comes with the digging was bad enough to get over. But obviously it is there, always there in my subconscious mind. That is why I have commitment phobia, but I am realizing with age that you´ve got to start trusting again. I just don´t want to pick the same kind of irresponsible man again and again.

I was in Bosnia before and after the war and I´ve worked in women´s shelters to share my experience with rape victims. Some women dig forever. It becomes their life, or their excuse for an unhappy life. There is life after rape, but only if you let it happen. Sometimes you have to let go of the hatred and the shame and leave it behind in the past where it belongs and keep going.

I stopped seeing men for a long while. It all became to painful and I took a long break from it all to build up my career. There is a danger involved, though. I became too comfortable being single and started to become really scared of involvement. I felt there was something missing in my life and I felt optimistic, as I was welcoming life again.

I will now address the other matter which is on my mind and answer the remaining questions tomorrow.

Again, thanks for being thoughtful and interested. It means a lot to me and feel free to ask me what you like on this issue.

Lily

[harlysdream66]

Oh my I keep reading this ,and it getting very sad to listen to your plight,
I would suggest a clean slate, wipe out the past , start a new, with people you can trust
Then look for the right guy... we do select the wrong people its happens, and to the wrung people, that get hurt by they actions... I ve been there before ,I'm sure we all have been... my question is do we set our self up to fail... I would guess we do
But thu all your pain your doing really well. Please stay strong john

[George_1950]

Evidently, you do not lack for self-confidence in your professional life. You wrote: "Then I had eight similar experiences in a row, all ending with finding the men in bed with the former wife or former girlfriend, or the "ex-wife" was giving birth." Doesn't this indicate that you are meeting men, but they are in some kind of a relationship? You are having difficulty finding what would be called "qualified" men. I did some checking and found one resource; I expect you are over my head in this area, however. Check this: Low self esteem and Self Respect. Learning to love ourselves.

[Lilywhite]

Thanks for the replies.

Harlysdream, I´m trying to start a new life, that´s exactly what I will do. I´ll stay strong.

George, thanks for the link.

Yes, after my divorce I met men who led me to believe they were unmarried or free, but they were not. I have never really understood why this happened. I stopped seeing them as soon as I found out they had lied to me.

One friend pointed out to me that I should have asked more questions in the beginning. I did ask them in the beginning and they lied to me, or at the time they were contemplating divorce or had moved out for a while.

To answer your question: I did meet men, but they were in a relationship they hid from me. I don´t see men who are married or otherwise engaged. I wonder what I could have done differently as everything should be a learning experience.

Ordinaryguy, I continue my answers to your questions:

"What was/is your relationship with your ex-husband like? Did you have commitment fears going into that marriage? How long were you married? Why did you get a divorce?"

I was married for seven years. I did marry my ex-husband on the rebound from another relationship. I was about to get married to a man I loved very much, but he left me just before the wedding ceremony. My ex-husband helped me a lot; his ex-wife had left him and their child as well, so we tried to build up a new life together. He didn´t want me to build up a career, however, and our marriage failed mainly because of this. But he was loyal and loving, so I am very sorry our marriage failed.

I answered the last question first about the men I met. I do realize they were not quality men - far from it. That´s why I stopped altogether to meet men and decided to work on it, but I didn´t. I just avoided men and devoted myself to my career.

Thanks again. I look forward to hear your input.

Lily

[ordinaryguy]

I must say I really appreciate your feedback and interest in this problem. It´s very valuable to me.

Thank you for saying so. The fact that you find it valuable is all the encouragement I need to keep at it.

This man robbed me of my innocence and made me sexually active much too soon. He damaged me more than I would have thought, but I was also raped many times in my teens.

But I'll bet you would have taken far fewer risks, sexual and otherwise, as a teenager if you hadn't been abused as a child.

I have been in therapy all my life in one way or another because of the abuse and all the rapes. At first I was in denial and did drugs. When I got sober, I didn´t want to think about it, but I had all this rage inside of me. I then started AA and therapy and it has been ongoing since 1992.

I have to confess to being somewhat in awe of and humbled by people like you, who are dealt this really crappy hand as a child, but somehow manage to survive and cope and live and love and succeed and transcend, and help others transcend, that huge and completely undeserved deficit that a betrayal of childhood innocence imposes.

I was an only child of parents who adored me, an incalculable advantage in life, and yet, at 61 years of age I sometimes wonder if I've used that advantage as well as I might have. People like you remind me that even though life is not fair, that fact in no way inhibits the choice or freedom of our creative inner being.

I feel I have done as much digging as possible.
....

If it needs more digging, I´m not sure I´m up for it.
....

Some women dig forever. It becomes their life, or their excuse for an unhappy life. There is life after rape, but only if you let it happen. Sometimes you have to let go of the hatred and the shame and leave it behind in the past where it belongs and keep going.

Yes, having cast out the demons, it's tempting to want to keep them nearby to remind yourself (and others) of how valiant you were in confronting them.

I'm prepared to believe that you've got about as much juice out of your past as can be safely extracted by the psychological medical pharmaceutical industrial squeezing apparatus. Helping other women who have suffered similar outrages and indignities is a good way to make lemonade out of the lemons you were dealt. I salute you for that.

I stopped seeing men for a long while. It all became to painful and I took a long break from it all to build up my career. There is a danger involved, though. I became too comfortable being single and started to become really scared of involvement. I felt there was something missing in my life and I felt optimistic, as I was welcoming life again.

I think you were right to give up romantic emotional relationships for several years. A lifetime can contain many experiences, but not always simultaneously, so there's no blame in setting aside one thing in order to focus on something else for a time. Now, you have accomplished what you needed to do in the career and motherhood departments, the wheel has turned, and it's time to refocus on your own emotional and (I suspect) spiritual growth again.