[firmbeliever]

...how can you deny its importance?

As I am not a scholar,but a student of knowledge...
Here is an answer on Islams views on the Gospel/s.
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http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE

First of all, I would like to clear a misunderstanding among certain Muslims, which some Christian missionaries are trying to take undue advantage of: The Muslims do not believe that the Torah and Bible are lost, that they are completely lost. The Qur'anic position about the Torah and Bible is very clear. Here, I would like to point out that it is well attested by learned Christian scholars too. That is, the Books of God as revealed to Moses and Jesus do not exist now in the original form and language.

Many Muslims misunderstand that the Christian Old Testament is the Torah. This is not true. The first five books of the Old Testament, often called the Pentateuch (the Five Books), contain some of the ideas in the original Torah - that is all. The language of the original Torah was ancient Hebrew; now nobody speaks that language. The first five books of the Old Testament contain ideas from the original Torah and also stories, which could have never been part of the divinely revealed Book. So the Jewish or Christian Torah contains some parts of the Original Torah, as well as other things.

The same is the case of the Bible. It was revealed to Jesus by God, in Jesus' own language of Aramaic, which is a Semitic language, an eastern language similar to Hebrew and Arabic. The “original” extant copies of the gospels are in Greek, a western language. Now there are four gospels, supposed to have been written by four of the disciples of Jesus: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Was Jesus quoting, from these Greek books, written many years after his disappearance when he was addressing his people? Certainly not! He was quoting from the Book he received from God, which was the original Bible in the language of his own people. The argument that God revealed his Bible to Jesus in Greek is like saying that God revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad in English!

So the original Gospel was not in Greek, it was in the language Jesus and his people spoke and understood. We have no record or evidence to indicate that; this original Gospel was written down by scribes under Jesus' own supervision. I repeat: We have no original Gospel existing now as a single volume, in the original language. Every educated Christian must know this fact! (Those who are in doubt can go to the Jerome Biblical Commentary, or any authentic book by genuine scholars that deal with the subject. Nevertheless, missionaries give the impression that this is only a baseless charge by Muslims.

Instead of the original Gospel, we have four books written by persons who are supposed to have been Jesus' disciples. I say 'supposed', because modern scholars who have done research on the subject, question the claim that these were the disciples of Jesus, in the first place. These four books called the Gospels are placed at the beginning of some 27 books, bound together into one volume, called The New Testament. Out of these 27 books, thirteen were written by a man called St. Paul. This Paul was not a disciple of Jesus, nor has Jesus met him, as he himself testifies. Modern Christians are ardent followers of St. Paul, even in cases where Paul clearly contradicts Jesus!

The Islamic request to Christians is just this: Please follow Jesus, don't follow Paul, who preaches a different gospel! The Islamic belief about the present Book, which the Christians use as “the word of God”, called the New Testament is that it is not the Gospel of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an. Still, Muslims believe that the Gospels in the bible contain some teachings of Jesus, as well as the interpretations of the writers of those books, whoever they might have been. Also Muslims believe that in the words quoted from Jesus in these gospels, you come across certain ideas, which he received from God too. So the New Testament (particularly the Gospels) is valuable to the Muslims. It is valuable in that there is the “word of God” in it, exactly as the Old Testament (particularly the Pentateuch) is valuable to Muslims in that it contains also the “word of God” in it.

There is a couple of things that we must understand about God commanding Muslims to go to Christians or Jews and ask them about any particular point, to verify whether it is in their books.
God wants to make Muslims, as well as the People of the Book, understand the continuity of Divine Guidance.

He wants to encourage understanding and dialogue between Muslims and others, for Allah knows best.

The Qur'an does not say anywhere that the older scriptures remained pure and free from corruption. On the contrary, the Qur'an very clearly says that they have been corrupted. One of the functions of the Qur'an is to confirm the truth that is left in the older scriptures, even after many interpolations and revisions have affected substantial changes in them.

The Qur'anic position about the previous scriptures is clarified in the following verse:

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Surah 5 Verse 48
This verse means that the Qur'an confirms the truth that remains in the former scriptures. The Arabic word translated, “Watcher over” is Muhaymin, which clearly indicates that the Qur'an confirms only the truth in the previous books. That the keepers of the previous books had distorted them is made clear in another verse:

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

Surah 2 Verse 79
From these two verses, it is quite clear that the Qur'an does not support the Christian claim that the Torah and the Bible remain uncorrupted all through history. What is more, this is not a claim they can maintain in the light of their own scripture:

“How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie” (Jeremiah 8:8, quoted from the New American Standard Bible).

Here the Prophet Jeremiah is scolding the Israelites that their corrupt scribes have made the Law of the Lord (that is the Torah) into a lie by their 'lying pen' (that is the pen they used to change the verses). This proof in the Book, the People of the Book are carrying, clearly establishes that their Book has been corrupted by their own scribes.

We have good evidence in the Gospels themselves that Jesus was using the original Bible for his preaching. He used to refer to it as The Gospel of the Kingdom:
“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.” (Matthew 4: 23)

Here it is said that Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. Ask those Christian disputants whether Jesus was preaching one of the four Canonical gospels included in the Bible in 325 C.E, written not in Jesus' own Aramaic language, but in the western language of Greek, at least thirty years after his alleged crucifixion. It is so obvious that no Christian scholar, worth his salt, can deny the fact that the present gospels contain the words of God, the words of Jesus and the words of the writer. That means that they are not fully God's word. The Islamic belief is also the same.

continued in next post
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[firmbeliever]

----------------
continued from above post

Now let us turn specifically to the Qur'anic verses you quoted:

First,
All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."
Surah 3 Verse 93

Second,
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
Surah 10 Verse 94

We must understand that these verses were originally addressed to the Prophet and his contemporaries. They had no means of knowing many of the ideas, which were being revealed to them by God. This is because there were so many things new to them, particularly about Jews and Christians, which were already really confusing to those polytheists or ex-polytheists of Mecca and Madinah. I believe (Allah knows best), it is to these people that the verses are primarily addressed.

"The truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt" - is clearly addressed to those who doubt, or to those who are likely to have some doubts. It is only natural for humans to have all kinds of doubts and questions, arising in the mind, especially in the light of so much of new material. It seems the Christian argument is that we are commanded not to doubt the Christian claims. However, as we have seen, this is not what the Qur'an commands us to do.

May Allah guide us to truth!

Mr. Lamaan Ball, editor of Ask About Islam, adds:

We are told in the Qur'an only to verify that what is in the Qur'an agrees with some extant verses of the Bible. The Muslims can quote the Bible, because they believe there is some truth in it. But we need to be clear: we understand that there is also falsehood there, which is wrongly presented as truth. By quoting the Bible we can show that the Qur'an confirms teachings already present in the earlier books. We must however always be clear that we are not asserting anything else about the remaining contents of those earlier books.
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[ordinaryguy]

Spirit is transcendent to the mind as the ionosphere is transcendent to the troposphere.

Language, especially written language, is a function of the intellect, i.e. the logical, rational mind.

Too often our preoccupation with words on paper so completely captures our attention that we fail to notice the present action of Spirit beyond the surface of our mind. This is the great danger of holy books, not that they are wrong or corrupted, but that they tempt us to stay safely in the mind and become deaf to the present workings of Spirit. Thus we are seduced into "bibliolatry"--making an idol of books, measuring all spiritual input against our previously established (mental, logical) interpretation of the holy book, effectively blocking further guidance and inspiration.

[Marily]

I don't know of any Muhammed in the bible =)

[Tj3]

Firmbeliever,

Your copy and paste response to my comment did not address the point that I made. It expressed many different opinions, attacked the Bible, but did not provide any validation for any of the points.

Please look at my message once again. I am looking to have a dicussion with you, not to trade copy and paste articles from the internet.

Tj3

[firmbeliever]

Firmbeliever,

Your copy and paste response to my comment did not address the point that I made. It expressed many different opinions, attacked the Bible, but did not provide any validation for any of the points.

Please look at my message once again. I am looking to have a dicussion with you, not to trade copy and paste articles from the internet.

Tj3

I do not believe in the current Bibles, if that was what you are asking.

I believe the original scriptures were revealed for that time and for certain people/nations.
The Quran I believe is the final revelation confirming all the truths that did exist in the original scriptures that were revealed before and the Quran is for all of mankind and jinn until the end of this world.

I hope that clears what you were asking about.

[Tj3]

I do not believe in the current Bibles, if that was what you are asking.

The Bible has not changed. We have plenty of evidence of the accuracy of the gospel that we have today is the same as when Mohammed was alive, so if he was pointing you to the gospel, then why do you reject it?

If you believe that the Bible has chnagedm bring forward your evidence.

I believe the original scriptures were revealed for that time and for certain people/nations.

Even that passage that I quoted from the Koran disagrees with you on that point.

[firmbeliever]

The Bible have not changed. We have plenty of evidence of the accuracy of the gospel that we have today is the same as when Mohammed was alive, so if he was pointing you to the gospel, then why do you reject it?

If you believe that the Bible has chnagedm bring forward your evidence.



Even that passage that I quoted from the Koran disagrees with you on that point.

The Quran is not talking about the Bible that existed during Muhammad's(pbuh) time,because the original books had already been changed long before that.
It is about the original revelations during the time of Jesus(alaihi salaam).

Another thing is Muhammad(pbuh) is not the one writing the Quran, he is an iliterate person and it was revelation from the Almighty that Muhammad(pbuh)passed down to those who memorised it and wrote it all down.

And do bear in mind that whatever you tell me otherwise, my mind will not change about accepting the scriptures that exist today,
Because I believe even if it contains some of the truths from the time they were revealed,I do not accept all of what exists today as the truth.

As the Quran already has the truths that was in the previous scriptures, I do not need to accept and believe in the current Bible/s.I just need to follow the Quran and the Sunnah(way of conduct) of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

[Tj3]

The Quran is not talking about the Bible that existed during Muhammad's(pbuh) time,because the original books had already been changed long before that.

Please post your proof of this claim. I ask because I am sure that you know that we now have many very ancient manuscripts. Further, if it had aleready changed before Mohammeds time, why did he say nothing about that? Why did he tell people to go to the gospel and the Torah? That would make no sense if the right gospel and Torah were not longer available.

Another thing is Muhammad(pbuh) is not the one writing the Quran, he is an iliterate person and it was revelation from the Almighty that Muhammad(pbuh)passed down to those who memorised it and wrote it all down.

That is a claim, and many such claims are made by many people who claim to be prophets, but the test is in examining their works, which is what we are doing right now.

And do bear in mind that whatever you tell me otherwise, my mind will not change about accepting the scriptures that exist today,
Because I believe even if it contains some of the truths from the time they were revealed,I do not accept all of what exists today as the truth.

I am not asking you to change your mind. I am asking you to discuss the topic with me, and to provide the evidence for your claims. I am sure that, like me, you want the truth - isn't that right? And the evidence should support the truth. If you are right, the evidence should only strengthen your claim.

[firmbeliever]

Please post your proof of this claim. I ask because I am sure that you know that we now have many very ancient manuscripts. Further, if it had aleready changed before Mohammeds time, why did he say nothing about that? Why did he tell people to go to the gospel and the Torah? That would make no sense if the right gospel and Torah were not longer available.

That is a claim, and many such claims are made by many people who claim to be prophets, but the test is in examining their works, which is what we are doing right now.

I am not asking you to change your mind. I am asking you to discuss the topic with me, and to provide the evidence for your claims. I am sure that, like me, you want the truth - isn't that right? And the evidence should support the truth. If you are right, the evidence should only strengthen your claim.

I think I would like to refrain from this discussion as it would get me or you nowhere, because I believe what I believe with or without proof.

About claims of Muhammad(pbuh)being the last and final messenger from the Almighty, I believe it without a doubt even if I cannot convince you or others of this.

As a firmbeliever in Islam,I do not need confirmation from books other than the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet(pbuh) to live my life as a good muslim.

I did not start this thread to find out if I was following the truth(I already believe I am) or to confirm the Quran.
My question was asked because I read an article that said the Bible mentions an unlettered Prophet in a chapter/verse called Isaiah.I just wanted to know if this was true and if this was in reference to Muhammad(pbuh).And this question has already been answered.

And please do not tell me that you need to see proof of my claims just to know the truth.Your mind is already made up that Islam and the Quran and Muhammad(pbuh) is just a manmade religion with a man calling people to it with a book composed by man and you wish to prove to me that yours is the true faith.

Another thing is that I am only a muslim, not a scholar to pull up proofs of everything I say regarding my faith.I am still learning and will be learning until I die.
I do not wish to discuss things when I have limited knowledge of it and you already said not to post articles from others(scholars or otherwise) in answer to your questions.
I do not like writing about or talking about matters I am not 100% sure of, which is why I give reference to different articles which does show my views with a better explanation.

[Tj3]

I think I would like to refrain from this discussion as it would get me or you nowhere, because I believe what I believe with or without proof.

About claims of Muhammad(pbuh)being the last and final messenger from the Almighty, I believe it without a doubt even if I cannot convince you or others of this.

As a firmbeliever in Islam,I do not need confirmation from books other than the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet(pbuh) to live my life as a good muslim.

I did not start this thread to find out if I was following the truth(I already believe I am) or to confirm the Quran.

I did not ask you that, but since you raised the topic, it seemed like a good time to examine the evidence for the truth of the Koran. You may believe and you may be convinced, but without evidence, no one else is going to believe it to be true. Indeed, I just asked you some questions and you then made claims challenging my belief.

And please do not tell me that you need to see proof of my claims just to know the truth.Your mind is already made up that Islam and the Quran and Muhammad(pbuh) is just a manmade religion with a man calling people to it with a book composed by man and you wish to prove to me that yours is the true faith.

I am always prepared to allow my faith to be challenged because I want to follow the truth wherever it may lead. I think that if all people took this approach that it would go a long way to ending battles between religions, because we would no longer hold to a religion, right or wrong, but we would follow truth.

Another thing is that I am only a muslim, not a scholar to pull up proofs of everything I say regarding my faith.I am still learning and will be learning until I die.

I do not like writing about or talking about matters I am not 100% sure of, which is why I give reference to different articles which does show my views with a better explanation.

Why do you believe then if you do not have proof that it is true or are not 100% sure of?

I find that if I allow my faith to be challenged, one of two things happens. Either I find that I am right, and now I can better defend my faith - or I am wrong in which case I have come closer to the full truth. Either way I win. Consider.

[ordinaryguy]

The Quran I believe is the final revelation

Well, that certainly does simplify things for you, I can see that.

[firmbeliever]

I did not ask you that, but since you raised the topic, it seemed like a good time to examine the evidence for the truth of the Koran. You may believe and you may be convinced, but without evidence, no one else is going to believe it to be true. Indeed, i just asked you some questions and you then made claims challenging my belief.

I am always prepared to allow my faith to be challenged because I want to follow the truth wherever it may lead. I think that if all people took this approach that it would go a long way to ending battles between religions, because we would no longer hold to a religion, right or wrong, but we would follow truth.

Why do you believe then if you do not have proof that it is true or are not 100% sure of?

I find that if I allow my faith to be challenged, one of two things happens. Either I find that I am right, and now I can better defend my faith - or I am wrong in which case i have come closer to the full truth. Either way I win. Consider.

Being 100% sure of my beliefs is very different from being able to explain and show proof 100% to another.
I am 100% sure of my own beliefs,but I am not 100% sure of being able to show proof and convince a sceptic that what I believe is the truth.

I do not have to defend my belief to anyone, I am answerable only to the Almighty.

So if I already believe I follow the truth whatever others might say to the contrary,I do not have to change my views just to please others or to convince others of my belief.

When I know I follow the truth,why would I need to accept or change my views just because someone else thinks it is not the truth.

If you are unsure of your faith, then I think it is your choice to look for answers elsewhere in other religions.I am sure of my faith and I do not need to look elsewhere.

You can challenge Islam all your like,but I am not the person to take up challenges when I know I have limited knowledge to counteract your arguments.

[Tj3]

Being 100% sure of my beliefs is very different from being able to explain and show proof 100% to another.
I am 100% sure of my own beliefs,but I am not 100% sure of being able to show proof and convince a sceptic that what I believe is the truth.

So if I already believe I follow the truth whatever others might say to the contrary,I do not have to change my views just to please others or to convince others of my belief.

Firmbeliever, what I was showing you came from the Koran. If you believe that the Koran is 100% right, then surely you must agree that what I quoted must also be right when it tells you that the Christian gospel was given for your salvation and guidance. What I do not understand is that you are getting defensive about your beliefs, however all I did was go to your scripture and point out what it said.

It was you who started challenging my beliefs. Surely if you choose to challenge the beliefs of another, you must expect that you will be asked to validate your claims.

[firmbeliever]

firmbeliever, what I was showing you came from the Koran. If you believe that the Koran is 100% right, then surely you must agree that what I quoted must also be right when it tells you that the Christian gospel was given for your salvation and guidance. What I do not understand is that you are getting defensive about your beliefs, however all I did was go to your scripture and point out what it said.

It was you who started challenging my beliefs. Surely if you choose to challenge the beliefs of another, you must expect that you will be asked to validate your claims.

The article I presented was not as a challenge to anyone, it just explained the Islamic view(I apologise if it seemed like a challenge).
And the question I originally asked has been answered.

Sorry, but I am not going to get into this discussion as I already told you.

Such a discussion will get you and I nowhere,because I believe I am on the truth and you believe otherwise.

I am not going to take the risk of getting into a discussion where I might unknowingly say some of the truths/words of the Almighty in the Bible/s is not the truth,because I am not sure which are from the original revelation revealed to Jesus(alaihi salaam) and which were added later.

I hope you do find someone knowledgeable enough on both the Gospels and the Quran to present you with the discussion you wish to have.:)

[Tj3]

The article I presented was not as a challenge to anyone, it just explained the Islamic view(I apologise if it seemed like a challenge).
And the question I originally asked has been answered.

I do not know how you could have said it was not a challenge. It was attacking the essentials of the Christian faith. All I did was quote the Koran.

Such a discussion will get you and I nowhere,because I believe I am on the truth and you believe otherwise.

I fully accept your right to believe as you wish, and truts that you accept my right to believe as I wish. The question that I have is why we cannot discuss our respect beliefs?

I am not going to take the risk of getting into a discussion where I might unknowingly say some of the truths/words of the Almighty in the Bible/s is not the truth,because I am not sure which are from the original revelation revealed to Jesus(alaihi salaam) and which were added later.

Then why don't we look at the evidence that there is from the ancient texts which demonstrate the accuracy of the whole Bible? That way you do not have to worry.

[carbonite]

Well just a quick question.

Where in the Bible does Jesus claim to be God?

This is the largest difference between the Islam and Christianity.

[firmbeliever]

....Then why don't we look at the evidence that there is from the ancient texts which demonstrate the accuracy of the whole Bible? That way you do not have to worry.

I am not worried, because I am already on the right path!

[Tj3]

I am not worried, because I am already on the right path!

How do you know? You have no proof - it is blind faith.

[Tj3]

Well just a quick question.

Where in the Bible does Jesus claim to be God?

This is the largest difference between the Islam and Christianity.

The differences between Christianity and Islam are huge. This is only one of the major differences.

Also, Why limit it to where Jesus Himself says that He is God. Why not expand it to the whole Bible, because examples of scriptures testifying to that reality are found throughout the Bible (OT and NT). But to answer your specific question, we have a few examples where Jesus acknowledges or states that He is God. Here are a couple:

Rev 1:8
8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
NKJV

Rev 22:13-17
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."
NKJV

The Alpha and Omega are identified elsewhere in scripture, such as Rev 1:8 quoted above. Note also that the reference above to the "First and the Last" is a reference to God. See this passage from the OT which indicates that to be the case:

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV

Note also in Is 44:6, that God calls Himself the Redeemer, another term for Jesus.

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
NKJV

In this passage, Jesus not only claims the attribute of God of being outside of time, but also calls Himself "I AM", which is a title of God. The Jews recognized what he was saying and considered it blasphemy to call Himself God and took up stones as a result.

John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
NKJV

Note that Jesus acknowledges that what Thomas is saying about Jesus being God is true. We could also look at a multitude of other verses which clearly identify Jesus as God, for example:

John 1
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NKJV

And

Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
NKJV

And there are many more references that I could give, but for the sake of brevity, I will stop here.