[ellen324]

Hi,

My hot water oil furnace has been giving off really obnoxious fumes for 8 years. It's something I've had to learn to live with (coughing, watery eyes, etc) because my oil company can't find the cause. As the fumes aren't positive for CO, it's never been a big emergency to them.

The company that's been servicing the furnace and supplying oil is the same company that installed it new in October of 1997. The old one was one of those huge old iron ones from the early 1900's, and they didn't remove it, so they had to install all new water pipes to the new one.

When the fumes first began in 2001, they first told me I needed a chimney liner. So, $2500 later, when that made no difference, they told me that moisture was somehow getting into the furnace and creating massive amounts of scale, and that might be the problem. But no one could find the source of the moisture. I was put on 'special' service contract, where I paid an extra $100 per year to have a scaling/cleaning done every year instead of every 3 years.

This past year I did a great deal of traveling for work so wasn't ever around long enough to having a servicing done. It's now been well over a year since the last one.
Last week I went down into the basement and almost had a canary when I looked at the furnace. There's a water valve located directly above the furnace, and it was dripping - badly - directly down into the furnace. The valve is on the water pipe that comes out of the top of the furnace and extends out to the pipes upstairs. It had been dripping so long that it had burned a big hole in the flue pipe coming out of the top of the furnace.

My question is this: does it make any sense whatsoever to install a valve in a water pipe directly above the furnace? There was plenty of space elsewhere on the pipe that the valve could have been installed so if it did ever drip it would drip onto the floor. Is this improper installation? Could this be the reason for all the fumes?

[21boat]

The only valve that would or should drip is the pressure relief valve. That's a safety valve in case the boiler malfunctions and the pressure in the hot water lines gets to high and pops the valve. Here code is a Relief valve has to be piped so its below the unit or 2" off the floor.

Does this valve have a little metal tag on it and a flip lever?

Many valves are above or around a boiler. Can't avoid it at times.

Describe valve in detail. Its it out of the valve or where it connects to the pipe?

Is it like a big thick tee or a big 90 fitting Brass ? A flow control valve? Does it have an arrow on it?

Signed 21 Boat

If I Helped To Answer Your Question Please Rate My Answer

[hvac1000]

It makes no difference what kind of valve it is since the valve is causing a problem. Get it repaired or replaced pronto and have any damage flue pipe replaced (not patched or repaired). Escaping flue gas/CO can make you sick or in heavy enough consentrations kill you in your sleep.

Valves can be placed anywhere as long as they are not concealed in a wall space or covered over to prevent access with out a identified access plate.

While this could be the cause of the water problem I am sure it would have been noticed before by the service company or yourself. Not knowing the exact brand and model number of your boiler keeps me from looking it up to see if the manufacturer has posted a design flaw/recall for water leaks. Post the brand and Exact model number if you would like that info.

[ellen324]

Thank you both for your replies - I'm answering you both:

1. The pipe that the leaking lever is on might not be to the pipes upstairs - it might be the water intake pipe. There are 3 pipes coming out of the boiler: #1 from the lower front, which separates into 2 and has knobs and faucets (I'm assuming these go upstairs - I think they're purge faucets). 2 pipes come out of the top: #1 is capped off, and #2 is the pipe with the leaking valve. This one is also attached to a large round grey cylinder.

The leaking valve has no faucet or round knob (as the 'purge' ones do). It's just a long red plastic-covered lever that looks like it could be turned horizontally (I didn't want to try it). It's attached to a brass hexagonal nut which is attached to the pipe. It's unmarked - no tags. No arrows on it.

I can't tell where exactly the 'drip' is coming from. It's dripping down into the boiler from the hexagonal nut, but since the nut is the lowest point, it could be from the pipe and leaking down onto the nut.

2. The boiler is a Peerless Boiler Model No. WBV3 section complete (with no external hot water heat exchanger). Exact model number: WBV-03-085-W

When I discovered it, I patched the flue pipe with metal tape to cover the hole in the flue, and wrapped the leaking valve in a towel to absorb the water. My oil company is coming on Monday to repair & clean it.

The smell in this house is horrendous -- but again, my CO detectors are detecting nothing. The fumes aren't constant, but when they arrive, they're really nauseating. Aside from making me sick, I haven't been able to have people in for the past 8 years for fear of making them sick too. I hope one - or both! - of you can help...

[hvac1000]

CO is not the only nasty particulate that oil burners create and CO detectors will not go off unless it is a CO problem.
Improperly running or vented oil burner units can cause watery eyes and many other symptoms with out a CO reading.
The file below will tell the service people Exactly how to tune and set your boilers oil burner depending upon the type installed during manufacturer. Have them check there work and nozzle size etc during there visit.

To cool of a return water temperature can and will cause condensation in that old boiler. You need to know the return water temperature. Anything under 140 degrees is a warning point with 130 degrees being a true condensation point that can and will cause boiler problems. (note this temp can vary from install to install but not by much) This is the problem I believe you might have.

So here is what you need to post
The type of radiant devices you have or how the heat comes out in your home.
Baseboard,cast iron radiators,fan coils,or in floor heat are a few posibilitys so post the type you have.

Next we need the return water temperature taken after the boiler has been running for at least 5 minutes with all zones flowing.
Finally is this a close picture of the boiler you have?
And here is a service set up list for your boiler with the different style burners. Have the service men check the specs against what you boiler is adjusted to and nozzle size.

[ellen324]

You're right about the fumes - they really are obnoxious, even though apparently they don't contain CO. I'm coughing and my eyes water constantly...

I'll give the service people the sheet you sent me. This has been an ongoing problem for 8 years though, so I know they've experimented with different nozzle sizes to see if it would help - it hasn't - and the draft in my chimney (where the boiler vents) has always been right where it should be.

I have 1 zone only and it's all baseboard heating.

I assume the 'water return temp' is what's on the gauge on the front of my boiler. Anyway, after the boiler ran for 5 minutes the psi was just under 20 and the water temp was 180.

Yes, the photo you attached looks like the same type boiler - I've attached photos of mine, as well as one of the valve that's dripping.

[hvac1000]

Do you have a gas water heater? It looks like it in the picture and it also looks like both units boiler and water heater use the same flue? Not good since one is a powered burner (oil boiler) and the other is gravity.

First picture shows water/condensation marks on the flue pipe. The water temp reading you are giving is the temp of the water in the boiler. To measure return temp it is the pipe on the right side with the pump on it should be the return.


Second picture looks like condensation (liquid) has been running down the outside of the pipe and if that is so then it is also running down the inside of the pipe.

Third pic is of a standard ball valve. It is a bit unusual for those to leak at the stem but I have seen it before

[ellen324]

I do have a gas water heater, and yes, both the water heater and the boiler vent into the same chimney liner in the chimney. I've never been told by anyone (the oil company or my plumber) that venting these together into the same liner could be a problem. If the draft reading is where it should be, is this still something they should look into?

Should there be a gauge to measure the return water temp? The only gauge on the boiler is the one on the front. How do I measure the return water temp?

The water/condensation marks shown on the flue pipe are very likely from the dripping water coming from the ball valve (pictured) directly over it. The metal tape covering a large part of the flue pipe was put on by me to cover the hole in it created by the dripping water. When I spoke to the head of servicing yesterday, he told me that any water dripping down from that valve into the boiler would burn off before it reached the boiler so it wouldn't be a problem. Is that true?

If that ball valve has been dripping - very slowly (no one seems to have noticed it before, but it's dripping excessively now) - into the boiler for a long time, could that possibly be the reason for the excessive scaling in the boiler and the fumes?

[hvac1000]

The venting of both oil and gas appliances into the same chimney is allowed as long as there calculations said the chimney flue area is of sufficient size and a liner is installed if necessary. Seems like you are covered from what your previous post said.

Quote: 2006 INTERNATIONAL FUEL GAS CODE® CHIMNEYS AND VENTS -
"503.5.7.4 Combination gas- and oil fuel-burning appliances. A listed combination gas- and oil fuel-burning appliance shall be permitted to be connected to a single chimney flue. The chimney flue shall be sized to properly vent the appliance."

When the boiler is not running both in the winter and especially in the summer the water dripping can accumulate in and around the boiler and when the boiler fires the water will turn to steam and evaporate. It is possible some of this water is finding its way into the burner chamber area and the scaling could be caused by that. Also basements always have moisture in them and that can also be part of the problem.

The return water line does not have a temperature gauge on it and the temperature has to be taken with a water temp meter or gauge attached to the pipe for accuracy. Have them check the temperature for you when they arrive as part of there service.
The leaking valve could be part of the problem but that remains to be seen. Post back after your service is performed and post what they have done to eliminate not only the water drip problem but also your complaint about the fumes you smell and the problems they cause.(coughing, watery eyes, etc)

[Mikie D]

Number one I would put a chimney cap on ,that's a ton of condensation comind down that flue and are you sure they used flue pipe not light gage duct pipe and the front of the boiler is all burn't I'd like to know the flue temp below the damper seeing all that condesation and there saying there is a negative .01 over the fire and -.03 in the breach I'd like to see those readings and what does the combustion analyzer read that will tell you the story. Mikie D.

[ellen324]

Hi HVAC1000,

The serviceman came yesterday and spent 4 hours cleaning & repairing. He replaced the flue pipe, the smoke hood, the fittings on all the faucets & levers around the boiler, the filter, etc etc. He purged the pipes too.

He agreed that a too cold water return temp could cause condensation in the boiler, but the only way to measure the return water temp would be to add a gauge onto the return pipe. It wasn't covered under my service contract so I'd have to pay for it. He said there might be other ways to measure it, but they didn't have those 'electronic gadgets' available to them. Another way would be to take the temp of the water coming out of the purge spigots, but that temp wouldn't be accurate. Anyway because of the amount of time he's been doing this, he just 'knew' the return temp wasn't too cold because the water in the boiler didn't take that long to heat up.

He said the way to heat up the return water temp is to have the water circulate through the system faster. He said there was no 'downside' to having this done, so I asked him to just do it. I asked him about this soon after he arrived, so he said he wanted to take a look at the boiler first - there might be something else wrong. He never did end up doing it. He told me I'd have to speak to the service manager about it (i.e. it probably isn't covered under my service contract)

Well, there wasn't anything else wrong - I got exactly the same assessment that I have each time they've been here over the past 8 years - it's been cleaned and now I should have no problems. But I could already smell the fumes and told him so. He said HE couldn't smell anything (then admitted that since he was smelling oil and fumes all day he probably wouldn't smell it), and then said that "some people are just more sensitive to the smell than others". So for the first 16 years I was in this house I smelled nothing, and have never smelled it anywhere else, but since I've been smelling it in my house for the past 8 years I must be overly sensitive? And what about other people who've been in here and are sickened by it?

He also told me that he'd fixed the leaking ball valve over the boiler for nothing, but that it shouldn't have been included in my coverage because the pipe it was on was over 1" in diameter and their service contract now only included coverage on max 3/4" pipes. But THEY had installed those water pipes when they installed the boiler/burner in 1997! So, I asked him, if the pipes YOU installed burst and ruin my boiler, I'm not covered? You are not, he told me.

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a reason for a service contract & boiler coverage other than to make the oil company some more money...



And to MikieD - I apologize for not answering sooner, but I wasn't notified that you'd answered! I have a chimney cap, and I have no idea of what kind of piping they used - how can I tell the difference? Yes, the front of the boiler is all burned and it looks like it's 80 years old (and has looked this way since it was 4 years old). Who's saying there's a negative .01 over the fire and -.03 in the breach? Please explain what you need me to get for you? Thanks.

[hvac1000]

Not much I can add here it seems the service man did his job. I know I would have a hard time putting up with a odor I could not stand but it looks like there is nothing much you can do since the service man did not find anything that helped you.

It muight be that you are oversensitive to the smell. Do visitors to your home smell anything?

[ellen324]

He was here for a LONG time and did an excellent job of replacing & cleaning everything. They always do - the oil company I use is generally very thorough & competent. Much better than most I know of.

Yes, other people I've had in have smelled it, and have the same response I do: watery eyes, coughing & sneezing. That's why I'm hesitant about having anyone come in who doesn't know about it already - it's embarrassing.

So you agree with what he said about the probable temp of the return water?

[hvac1000]

So you agree with what he said about the probable temp of the return water?

It might be true of what he said and the style of caseboard heaters usually will not pull off so much heat as to cause a to low of a return temp. It is a shame they do not equip there service meant with a temperature indicator that would have at least been able to tell you the return temp.

At this point I have no more to add since I cannot be there to smell or see what could be causing the smell. I can tell you it is not normal but you already new that.

Is this smell all over the home or just located in one room or two?

[ellen324]

You can smell it all over the house, but it's worse in rooms on both the 1st & 2nd floors with direct/open access to the main staircase. Interestingly, it's not heavy in the basement or on the basement stairs.

I thought there might be a hole in the chimney liner, but yesterday he said that the draft was really good, and with a hole in the liner, the draft would be way off.

[Mikie D]

Hi HVAC1000,

The serviceman came yesterday and spent 4 hours cleaning & repairing. He replaced the flue pipe, the smoke hood, the fittings on all the faucets & levers around the boiler, the filter, etc etc. He purged the pipes too.

He agreed that a too cold water return temp could cause condensation in the boiler, but the only way to measure the return water temp would be to add a gauge onto the return pipe. It wasn't covered under my service contract so I'd have to pay for it. He said there might be other ways to measure it, but they didn't have those 'electronic gadgets' available to them. Another way would be to take the temp of the water coming out of the purge spigots, but that temp wouldn't be accurate. Anyway because of the amount of time he's been doing this, he just 'knew' the return temp wasn't too cold because the water in the boiler didn't take that long to heat up.

He said the way to heat up the return water temp is to have the water circulate through the system faster. He said there was no 'downside' to having this done, so I asked him to just do it. I asked him about this soon after he arrived, so he said he wanted to take a look at the boiler first - there might be something else wrong. He never did end up doing it. He told me I'd have to speak to the service manager about it (i.e., it probably isn't covered under my service contract)

Well, there wasn't anything else wrong - I got exactly the same assessment that I have each time they've been here over the past 8 years - it's been cleaned and now I should have no problems. But I could already smell the fumes and told him so. He said HE couldn't smell anything (then admitted that since he was smelling oil and fumes all day he probably wouldn't smell it), and then said that "some people are just more sensitive to the smell than others". So for the first 16 years I was in this house I smelled nothing, and have never smelled it anywhere else, but since I've been smelling it in my house for the past 8 years I must be overly sensitive?? And what about other people who've been in here and are sickened by it?

He also told me that he'd fixed the leaking ball valve over the boiler for nothing, but that it shouldn't have been included in my coverage because the pipe it was on was over 1" in diameter and their service contract now only included coverage on max 3/4" pipes. But THEY had installed those water pipes when they installed the boiler/burner in 1997! So, I asked him, if the pipes YOU installed burst and ruin my boiler, I'm not covered? You are not, he told me.

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a reason for a service contract & boiler coverage other than to make the oil company some more money....



And to MikieD - I apologize for not answering sooner, but I wasn't notified that you'd answered! I have a chimney cap, and I have no idea of what kind of piping they used - how can I tell the difference? Yes, the front of the boiler is all burned and it looks like it's 80 years old (and has looked this way since it was 4 years old). Who's saying there's a negative .01 over the fire and -.03 in the breach? Please explain what you need me to get for you? Thanks.

First of all lets start with is this a damp and uninsulated cellar, and if you have a lot of cold water pipes condensating you can go to home depot and buy pipe insullation very inexspensive with tape for the joints. You said you have a chimney cap ,good but did anybody look at the chimney to see if it the joints were cracked or the flashing is bad water should not be coming in between the flue pipe and staining the pipes and the boiler, if the flue temp is up about 500-600 degrees that should kill any condensation in the chimney as long as its not full around the new chimney liner, and you stated you had this problem before the liner, so one other question do you have well water with a high sulfur content, that will give a terrible smell dripping on the boiler or any hot pipes. Remember if your cellar is really damp rent a dehumidifier and try it for a week or two. Let me know ,but I don't think the company yout using are using a combustion analyzer because they should showed you what readings are and proved they set the boiler up properly or maybe they did look on your bill and see if they recorded the readings draft -.01 over the fire what the co readind is and what the o2 reading is I wouldn't use the old bacarach testers the new electronis equipment is far superior and if I was to have someone set up my boiler I would ask a service man if he used that type of equipment before he stepped in my house especially with your problems.Let me know Mike D

[EPMiller]

I am not a certified oil burner tech, but I know a bit about them and I am getting bad vibes here. First off, in defense of the service man, are you certain your health symptoms are on account of the OIL BURNER? The gas water heater could be a cause of your problems too. Is it clean and burning correctly? Also mold, mildew, formaldehyde or the like (think new carpet, furniture, cabinets, etc) can give you the symptoms you describe. If the burner company hasn't found a cause for it in eight years, it might be time to have some other house analysis done.

Or my second suggestion, call another reputable burner service company. I personally think I would start with a video inspection of the inside of the chimney, a careful visual inspection of any chimney parts outside the house and a recalculation of the suitability of the chimney for venting those two devices through it. Something is wrong here and by the looks of the burner smoke pipe I question the chimney.

EPM

[ellen324]

Mike D-

The pipes weren't condensating water - they were dripping water. The water drippings you see on the flue pipe are from the ball valve located directly above the boiler - see photos. It was leaking badly. The service guy repaired that and all dripping purge faucets around the boiler with new valves and fittings. My basement is sometimes damp because of humidity in the summer, but it's not damp at any other time of the year.

I don't have well water, no, and there's definitely no sulfur smell - it smells like I'm standing behind a city bus.

There are readings on the paper he gave me. Here they are:

Smoke: 0
CO2: 11 (looks like 11)
Stack: 400
Dr & Fire: -03
Dr/Breach: -06
WIX: 7 (looks like 7)
Efficiency: 834 (or 854?)
Safety: 15

-Ellen


And to EPMiller - Yes, I thought the gas heater might be the problem too, so I had a new one installed in 2005. It made no difference.

The symptoms I'm describing are from the SMELL in the house. It smells exactly like standing behind a bus in New York City and trying to breath. I have never smelled anything like this in any other home or in any other place for that matter, and as I've said, other people have been in here and smelled it too, so I'm not insane or imagining things.

The house is 108 years old and everything has been venting through the chimney for probably at least 70 years. The chimney was replaced in 1995. The new boiler/burner was installed in 1997, and I had no problems with these fumes until 2001. The stainless liner was added in 2001, at which time the chimney was also inspected and passed. Once again, the serviceman told me on Monday that the draft was right where it should be, so how could it be the chimney?

-Ellen

[Mikie D]

The readings look good and that's 83.4% and that's good all the figures look good . Did any one put antifreeze in the system or any alkali based cleaners or did you have hot water off the boiler that was cleaned out with acid that wasn't cleaned out or did the hot water coil every give out and then you installed the separate hot water heater, I just find it hard to believe that no one can see anything other than exhaust as clean as its burning is getting through the liner and through the inside clay tiles in chimney, burning eyes indicate exhaust of some type,or something in the water burning, you might want to have the water tested or takes some water off the boiler drain and pour it on your grill outside and see if you get the same effect. Let me know I'm interested Mikie D.