[excon]

Hello:

If you were an insurgent who wanted an invading army OUT of your country, what would piss you off the most?? I don't know about you, but at the top of my list would be the announcement by the president of the invading country, that they're going to stay in my backyard just as long as they've stayed in Korea. That's FIFTY YEARS.

George Bush just made such an announcement. I think it probably emboldened our enemy to fight harder. Wouldn't it you? I think Bush is really mixed up. Don't you?

excon

[Wondergirl]

I read just recently that the "insurgents" aren't hating us and wanting us out of Iraq because the U.S. is so wealthy and powerful, but because we are THERE, in their country, pushing on them our version of democracy and not empathizing with their mindset and worldview. The article went on to say that, once we leave, yes there will be infighting and people killed, but they will work it out a lot better and faster without U.S. military there (who are also being killed).

[tomder55]

I would like to refer you to an article in the LA Times Al Qaeda's new enemy -- Iraqis - Los Angeles Times Al Qaeda's new enemy -- Iraqis
...
LAST MONTH, the Associated Press reported that residents of Amariya, one of the bastions of Al Qaeda control in Baghdad, turned on the terrorists and, with U.S. help, killed their leader and many of his followers. The fight is emblematic of a larger trend in Iraq.

The Iraqi government has long declared its determination to root out terrorists in the country, and its security forces have been fighting Al Qaeda for months. But now, ordinary Iraqis, most significantly Sunni Arabs in Al Anbar province (until now the chief supporters of the terrorists), are putting their lives on the line against Al Qaeda as well.

The story of the "Anbar Awakening" — the uniting of the province's Sunni Arab tribes against Al Qaeda — is relatively well known. In mid-2006, a Marine intelligence officer in Al Anbar declared the situation hopeless and the province irretrievably lost. The Iraqi government was unable to recruit Anbaris into the local or national police or into the Iraqi army. But later that year, a combination of Al Qaeda atrocities and skillful counterinsurgency techniques by U.S. forces convinced Sunni tribal leaders that enough was enough.

Today, more than 12,500 Anbari recruits, the overwhelming majority of them Sunnis, are fighting or preparing to fight Al Qaeda despite ferocious counterattacks by the terrorists against them and their families. Tribal leaders are negotiating with the Iraqi government to rebuild their war-torn province. Violence in the provincial capital has dropped precipitately, from 108 deaths a week in mid-February to seven in the second week of May. Al Anbar has gone from hopeless to a beacon of hope and a signal of the turn of Iraq's Sunnis against their erstwhile terrorist allies.

Now the movement against Al Qaeda is spreading. "Salvation councils" similar to the Anbar Awakening have been formed in mostly Sunni Salahuddin province (north of Baghdad),Shiite-Sunni mixed Diyala province (northeast of the capital) and mostly Shiite Babil province (south of Baghdad). In some cases, their coming together coincides with cease-fires between U.S. forces and non-Al Qaeda insurgent groups. All are striving to reestablish normal relations with the Iraqi government.

Al Qaeda has responded in characteristic fashion — a campaign of atrocities designed to intimidate or kill its new antagonists. Such tactics were successful in the past. No longer. Today these atrocities only serve to remind the leaders of the salvation councils and their supporters that Al Qaeda is the real enemy. They have not deterred Anbaris from joining and integrating into the Iraqi government's security organs. They have not deterred leaders in other provinces from forming similar groups.

These movements show that success on the most important front in Iraq is possible, but they also are a reminder of how fragile the situation is. The Iraqi security forces are not yet strong enough to protect their leaders and followers from the terrorists. U.S. troops are vital in this task, something the tribal leaders constantly make clear, and they continue to be essential to suppressing Shiite death squad activity, which remains below 50% what it was before the surge began. A reduction of U.S. forces in the coming months would expose these Iraqis to horrific deaths and would turn what might be one of the most important victories we could win against Al Qaeda into an unnecessary defeat.

There are many problems in Iraq beyond Al Qaeda. Sectarianism within the government and the security forces continues to pose a significant challenge. Iranian influence is large and dangerous. Muqtada Sadr's return to public life adds more complexity to an already complex political situation. U.S. commanders and civilian leaders are working on these issues, but success cannot be guaranteed.

In the midst of the doubt and fear that grips the United States about Iraq today, however, it's critically important to recognize the positive trends. Iraq's Sunni Arabs, once one of the most supportive communities of Al Qaeda, are now among the most hostile, repudiating their alliance of convenience with the terrorists and risking their lives to fight with us against our worst enemies. This is a trend worth fighting to continue, and Iraqis who now stand with us at their own peril are people worth fighting for.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is indicative of the same story I have heard from Iraq and what I have been arguing for some time now ;that much if not most of the insurgency is being generated by external forces hell bent to see a free Iraq fail . I could also produce a ton of evidence of Iranian interference . But I think most of all this is proof of the trend that Iraqi people are beginning to trust the US motives and have turned on the insurgency .

The question is ;will the US pull out before all gains are solidified ? Probably we will.

[Fr_Chuck]

There is a difference between the legal nation of Iraq and the terrorists who are fighting against both their legal nation and the US troops helping to keep the peace there.

And in general one just has to look at the radical muslim teachings of the insurgants to know they hate anyone who is not muslim, and even the muslims who do not believe their way. This is and has been for years a religious war, they want only their religion to rule the entire world.
Not a loved truth, and not the press does not feel good about saying.

[kindj]

I read just recently that the "insurgents" aren't hating us and wanting us out of Iraq because the U.S. is so wealthy and powerful, but because we are THERE, in their country, pushing on them our version of democracy and not empathizing with their mindset and worldview. The article went on to say that, once we leave, yes there will be infighting and people killed, but they will work it out a lot better and faster without U.S. military there (who are also being killed).

Which in all likelihood means that the "insurgents" (read: "terrorists") will set up a regime in the fashion of their benefactors, such as Iran, Syria, Lebanon, etc... In which case there WILL be fighting and death, and the only reason it will "work out" better and faster without US involvement is because there will be literally NOTHING and NO ONE to stop the biggest kid on the block (Iran, at the moment) from just rolling in, uniforms and all. THEN what?

I make it a personal point of policy to not pay too much attention to terrorists. If they can be trusted, then why are they hiding in caves, doing hit 'n runs? If they are legitimate, then why not a publicly known base of operations? If they "speak for the Iraqis," then why are so many of them Iranian and Jordanian, and why do the real Iraqis denounce them?

Sorry, I don't buy it. Fortunately, neither do the Iraqis.

DK

[Fr_Chuck]

I am sorry wondergirl, you can call them any nice sounding name you want but the Iraq "insurgents are just terrorists, they are not obeying the lawful orders of their own nation, and are killing more people in their own nation, than americans. They only want to destroy, not build up their nation unless it can be done under their terms.

[Wondergirl]

I'm referring to the insurgent Iraqis who want us out of Iraq, not the fundamentalist Muslim terrorists who come from other countries to kill our troops.

[excon]

Hello again:

I think we've pointed out another obvious problem over there. Nobody knows who the enemy is.

excon

[Wondergirl]

My guess is that we are.

[Wondergirl]

Yep, excon. We're the ones wearing all the heavy clothes and packs in the 120-degree desert heat and the ones who talk funny (and don't speak the native language) and the ones armed to the teeth. We're easy to pick out in a crowd.

[kindj]

"By insurgents I mean the Iraqis who are killing us (and yes, they are!). The terrorists are another breed altogether and not part of my response."

However, the Iraqis who are "killing us" are--at this time--a tiny minority of that romanticized group the MSM calls "insurgents." The vast majority of them are the imports that I referred to.

Those who ARE genuine Iraqis are the handful of Saddam loyalists that are left over. And their number diminishes by the day.

[Wondergirl]

Boy, that minority sure gets around!

[kindj]

Ex:

My comments had nothing to do with "winning" or "losing." Oh, OK, the line about "fewer everyday.."

Well, every time we kill one, there's one fewer, ain't there?

However, my point was to clarify that we're not JUST fighting Iraqi terrorists. We're fighting terrorists from all over the world, but especially the more virulant strain that grows in the Middle East. They're attracted to the conflict like moths to a flame. And with the same result, more often than not. We've got a LOT of guys seeing repeat action. Can't say the same for the bad guys.

DK

[Wondergirl]

Every time they kill 13 (or more) of us with an IED, there are 13 (or more) fewer.

[ETWolverine]

Excon,

Islamic terrorism has absolutely nothing to do with our being in Iraq. 9/11 happened before we were in Iraq. The first WTC bombing happened before we were in Iraq. The bombing of the USS Cole happened before we were in Iraq. The bombing of the Marine Barracks happened before we were in Iraq. Trying to link the rise of terrorist activity to our presence in Iraq is historically and factually wrong.

If you want to know the reasons for the rise of Islamic terrorism, look at the words of the terrorists themselves.

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

World Islamic Front Statement - 23 February 1998

We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson. The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.

--- Fatwa of Osama bin Laden, 1998.

The International Islamic Front for Jihad against the U.S. and Israel has issued a crystal-clear fatwa calling on the Islamic nation to carry on jihad aimed at liberating holy sites. The nation of Muhammad has responded to this appeal. If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans in order to liberate Al-Aksa Mosque and the Holy Ka'aba Islamic shrines in the Middle East is considered a crime, then let history be a witness that I am a criminal.

- Newsweek minterview with OBL, 1/11/99.

Those youth who conducted the operations did not accept any fiqh in the popular terms, but they accepted the fiqh that the prophet Muhammad brought. Those young men (... inaudible... ) said in deeds, in New York and Washington, speeches that overshadowed all other speeches made everywhere else in the world. The speeches are understood by both Arabs and non-Arabs-even by Chinese. It is above all the media said. Some of them said that in Holland, at one of the centers, the number of people who accepted Islam during the days that followed the operations were more than the people who accepted Islam in the last eleven years. I heard someone on Islamic radio who owns a school in America say: "We don't have time to keep up with the demands of those who are asking about Islamic books to learn about Islam." This event made people think (about true Islam) which benefited Islam greatly.

-Transcript of Osama bin Laden videotape, December 13, 2001

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.

In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

And that day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy, while resistance is terrorism and intolerance.

This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions as Bush Sr did in Iraq in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known, and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children - also in Iraq - as Bush Jr did, in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages.

So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs, should a man be blamed for defending his sanctuary?

--Transcript of Osama bin Laden videotape, November 2 2004.

We should not wait until US, British, French, Jewish, South Korean, Hungarian or Polish forces enter Egypt, the Arabian Peninsula, Yemen and Algeria before we resist. Let us start resisting now. The interests of America, Britain, Australia, France, Poland, Norway, South Korea and Japan are spread everywhere. They all took part in the invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq or Chechnya or enabled Israel to survive.

We can't wait or we will be eaten up country by country. People of knowledge and experience should organise their efforts and form a leadership for the resistance to combat the crusaders.

---Transcript of tape by Ayman al-Zawahiri, October 1, 2004

Our terrorism against the United States is worthy of praise to deter the oppressor so that America stop its support for Israel, which is killing our children...

--Transcript of Osama bin Laden videotape, December 26, 2001.

Our presence in Iraq is not the cause of terrorism. It is not the cause of 9/11. The idea that WE are 'emboldening' the terrorists is a crock of crap, Excon. The terrorists themselves explain why the terrorism is taking place:

1) The USA exists and is not Muslim,
2) Israel exists,
3) The USA supports Israel,
4) The USA is involved in international relations in the Middle East,
5) The USA and Israel are richer and more successful than their Arab counterparts and their citizens have greater freedoms than their Arab counterparts.

That's it. It's that simple. And their own words support that analysis.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

I don't know about you, but at the top of my list would be the announcement by the president of the invading country, that they're going to stay in my backyard just as long as they've stayed in Korea.

Isn't that exactly the opposite of what they've said about us, that we have "no stomach" for such a battle, that we're cowards and don't have the will? Yeah, such an announcement would probably piss them off... but what else is new for adherents to the religion of perpetual hatred?

All the more reason to get in their face and stick around if you ask me, especially considering who is waiting to come in once we leave. You know Ex, if the American people understood what kind of people we're talking about I think their attitude would be different. But the longer we're in denial over who and what they are and their goals the worse it's going to get. Now THAT should make you worry about your kids and grandchildren.

Steve

[excon]

Hello again, its: (can I call you its?)

No no, Steve, these are BAD guys. I never said they weren't.

But I don't buy the, "they're waiting for us to leave so they can come over here" scenario. That's more Bush propaganda. If I was them, I'd rather come over here NOW and blow up a bridge instead of facing our troops over there. Wouldn't you?

If we're going to be vulnerable to them then, aren't we vulnerable to them now?

excon

[ETWolverine]

Excon,

Nahhh, the terrorists ain't good guys. But they weren't in Iraq before we got there, therefore our very PRESENCE emboldens them. We never should have strayed from Afghanistan..

You are wrong about that, ex. They were indeed there before we were. They were in Salman Pak, training in terrorism. Salman_Pak

OBL's flunkies were meeting with Saddam and his flunkies before we were there. They were being supported by Saddam with cash before we were there. Saddam's own records prove that. To say that WE caused the terrorists to be there ignores historical fact.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

Good try, Steve, but no cigar.

Well what would I do with a cigar anyway - that's worse than crack don't you know? Those anti-smoking zealots are a very intolerant bunch.

But I don't buy the, "they're waiting for us to leave so they can come over here" scenario. That's more Bush propaganda.

Actually my answer doesn't have that much to do with "fight them over there" line, it's more like "fight those evil bastards wherever they are." I like having a Corona and baby back ribs whenever I feel like it.

If I was them, I'd rather come over here NOW and blow up a bridge instead of facing our troops over there. Wouldn’t you?

Absolutely, but then I don't think like they do. :D

[ETWolverine]

But I don't buy the, "they're waiting for us to leave so they can come over here" scenario. That's more Bush propaganda. If I was them, I'd rather come over here NOW and blow up a bridge instead of facing our troops over there. Wouldn’t you?

Exactly, excon. And the fact that despite all this "provocation" they still haven't been able to come here and blow up aq bridge (or an airport or a military base) is proof that fighting them over there makes it more difficult for them to attack us over here. They WANT to react just as you describe. They CAN'T... and that is the entire point of the Bush doctrine. You just proved our point for us, Excon.

Glad to have been of assistance.

Elliot