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arcura · May 17, 2009, 06:50 PM

homesell,
I do not believe that it is symbolic.
I believe that correctly done baptism must be done with "Water and the Spirit" in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
If done any other way it is not valid.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

homesell · May 18, 2009, 04:33 AM

Fred,
Because the Father doesn't know the heart of the individual? If it is not done exactly the way some denomination teaches then it doesn't count and the person is doomed?
Those were rhetorical questions.
I have known many people that have gone through water Baptism and then later turned their backs on God.
I have never met a single person that was Baptized with the Spirit of God and then later turned their backs on Him. Because they were saved and after they were saved, they proceeded to be baptized with water as commanded.

arcura · May 18, 2009, 09:32 PM

homesell,
Yes I do believe that a person once saved can lose it.
But baptism by water and the spirit is but one step on the journey to salvation.
A living faith that perseveres to the end is the final saving grace step.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

homesell · May 19, 2009, 04:51 AM

I guess we understand love differently. The God of the Bible is NOT a conditional love God where he says, "Of course I love you, IF, you get circumsized, you get baptized in water, you speak in tongues, you become a missionary, you build me a church, you give 10%, you read my word daily, you pray to me every night(or morning) you do the sacramenmts, you go to sunday school, and on and on with conditions. (since I am an expert on cults, I can REALLY give you a weird list of "must do's" to "earn God's love.) (One group says for example that you are doomed if you don't pronounce the name of Jesus exactly like they think you should.)
Salvation is like a marriage since we are the bride of Christ according to scripture. Once I married my bride that I chose, she took on my name(Smith) as we take Christs(christians) She doesn't have to do anything to get my love. She has it. I will never leave her or forsake her(as Jesus promised to do with us) and even if she was to be a quadriplegic from sickness or accident(in sickness or in health) I have pledged to love her. She doesn't always do things the way I want or act the way I want but I don't love her any less and it certainly doesn't jeopardize our marriage. I will never divorce her as God will never divorce us.
My point is, when the Holy Spirit enters us, we are married to God. As Jesus says in John 17:20-23 "20 ¶ "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
The Holy Spirit enters us and we are one. A husband enters a wife and they are one, according to scripture. Like Paul says, "nothing can separate us from the Love of God." God looks on our heart. If the heart is not the heart He gave us to replace our heart of stone, nothing we can do will "earn" His love or salvation. If he HAS replaced our heart of stone with a new heart which He says He will place in us, nothing we do will earn His Love or salvation because this love and salvation are not conditional.

arcura · May 19, 2009, 09:44 PM

homesell,
From what I understand of Holy Scripture, no one earns God's love. It would be impossible for sinners to do that.
God's love is unconditional for every human creature.
That is what I learned way back in Protestant Sunday School and ir was strongly reinforced in my mind and heart when I became a Catholic over 35 years ago.
No cults were ever involved in my life.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

homesell · May 20, 2009, 03:25 AM

You're right Fred, Gods love is unconditional and we don't earn it, according to scripture. What we learn in protestant Sunday school or catholicism is only beneficial if it lines up with the word of God. It's up to us to be like the Bereans that went home and read the scriptures and put that as the test against what Paul had said. Very well meaning and sincere people can tell you a lie just because they believe it. They were taught it and never compared it to what the word of God says. I'm not saying this happened to you, I am saying test whateveryone says(including me) against what the scripture says because no man on earth has a corner on the truth.
I wouldn't hold it against you if you had been in a cult, Fred, I was. That's what got me started in refuting false doctrine by the word of God.

arcura · May 20, 2009, 09:41 PM

Thanks Jeff,
Testing what Scripture says against what is said and taught what lead me to leave the fundamentalist beliefs I once had and insisted on.
I still do that.
But there is an ongoing problem and that is Holy Scripture can be used to prove almost anything and some people are very adept at doing so.
That is what I try to use the entire bible in my studies rather than accept just pick and chose passages.
The other problem is that I believe what Scripture clearly says to me but says something else to others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred