[hic1957]

Hi

Because of my (then 83 year old) father's financial incompetence, I was given control of 85% of his income.

Dad want's control back claiming (like the commerical) it's his money and he wants to spend it how he wants to spend it!

My response was two fold -
First, dad has not shown any improvement that caused his financial problems to begin with and is still having a great deal of trouble managing his remaining 15%.
Second - I contend that until and unless I have completed repaying EVERYONE to whom he owed money, the 85% belongs to THEM as his debt, not to him.
I likened it to that of a person who owes back taxes and/or child support - the person worked, the person earned the money, but despite that obvious little fact, the court still deemed that it is NOT their money to do with as they please - it does in essence belong to others and it's unfortunate that a court was necessary to ENFORCE repayment!

While my arrangement with dad has not been court appointed - I maintain the same attitude - it's their money until he pays them back - tHEN it's his money.

Appreciate any comments and/or opinions?

Thanks

Howard

[lacuran8626]

If this is not a legal arrangement, you can't do this. If it is a legal arrangement he agreed to, he might have the right to reverse the arrangements.

In any event, it sounds like your father is very irritated and perhaps would agree to you maintaining control if you are a little less heavy handed. If he's a drinker or gambler or something like that, it's a different story. If he just isn't very responsible in his old age, try to make him feel included by saying, "this month, we have $1000 to work with, and you have $500 in unpaid bills. I thought that after we pay those bills, we can spend $450 on paying off your gas card so you will be totally done with them and they'll leave you alone. Then the other $50 is in case you need anything. I can take you shopping for whatever you need."

You might need to talk to an attorney to find out whether you have legal rights to do what you are doing now.

[Fr_Chuck]

Sorry, no, it is HIS money, not your money, he may have given you a power of attorney or some agreement, but he can take it away anytime he wishes.

To have control legally over his money you will have to go to court and prove he is not capable of handing his own money.

He can not pay anyone if he wants, that is his free choice to pay them or not pay them, you have no legal right to make him unless the court has ordered you to do this.

In fact if he has ordered you not to use or pay with his money, and you do, he could change you with theft or at least hold you personally responsible in civil court.

[ScottGem]

First, I agree with your logic and reasoning. That being said, you are committing elder abuse and could be criminally prosecuted. You have every right to go to a Family Court and have yourself appointed guardian of your father and take control of his income WITH THE COURT'S APPROVAL! Without the court's approval, you have no legal standing other than what your father has granted you. What he has granted he can take away. If you refuse to go along, he can have you arrested.

[cozyk]

I agree with your logic too. I wish you had a leg to stand on legally, but you don't. How did you get him to agree to the 85/15 split to begin with?
A couple of people own me money right now, and I hate it when I see them spending their money on their wants before paying me back. I've always believed you pay your debts ASAP. Good Luck!

[cdad]

The others are giving good answers and I agree with them too. Unless its legal your on shakey ground at best. That being said is / was there an existing mental condition that caused your father to amass debt ? If so then it may need to be straightened out by a court as to who he really owes and doesn't. A person cannot commit to a contract if they don't know what they are doing based on reduced mental capacity. Knowingly having a person sign papers that has a reduced capacity may relieve him of liability. I don't fully know your situation. Try to remember that if he is of sound mind its up to him how its spent because its HIS monies.

[hic1957]

- OK everybody - thanks for the responses -
Please allow me to elaborate a few details to put things more in perspective, and I do invite additional comments:

Dad's income prior to mom's passing in 2005 was about $32,000 a year - despite this dad saved nary a single cent for his wife's funeral (march 2005) (I laid out over $8,000 for the funeral) June of 2006 I discovered dad owed thousand of dollars in past due bills to 12 different creditors - he also owed about $60,000 to 8 individuals -
The reason? Dad has a girlfriend - dad was funneling money to her prior to mom's passing in 2005 - dad is STILL giving her money -
In July of 2006 I took dad down to our local SS office - showed them the past due bills and they appointed me representative payee for my father's social security (I said NOTHING about his girlfriend being the cause of his past due bills) -

Since I took over, (June 2006) dad has had no direct real out of pocket expenses - out of his SS, I pay all utilities, taxes, food, housing expenses, medical bills and almost anything else that comes up - I have refused however, to give him money to give to her while I'm still paying down the people he owes! Dad kept and still has controlling interest of $1,200 a month, while I controlled the rest, despite this, dad says he is unable to come up with $100 to take his girlfriend out to dinner for her birthday, and at Christmas asked me to give him $200 of his ss money to give as presents to his friends - when asked, since all your bills all year long have been paid for you, how is it you couldn't manage to save $200 out of $14,000, his answer was "she needed it more" -

While I have managed to pay off all his creditors, dad's personal debt to individuals has risen to $70,000 (due to my laying out money for medical expenses , attorney's fee's, etc) - since I took over in June 2006, despite his control of $1,200 a month, dad has refused to put even one red cent aside for his OWN funeral - choosing instead to give the money to her - (since she's spending it, who do you thinks going to have to pay another $8,000 for HIS funeral?)

So here's the question my friends:
I contact with a vendor to supply service for $100.00 a month. At the end of the month I HAVE the $100 but don't want to spend it on them - instead, I call them up, lie about why I can't pay them and only send them $10.00 - is the $90.00 I have in my pocket MY money or does it belong to cable company? According to various sources, agreeing to pay for a service (whether in writing or verbally) and then purposely NOT paying for it because something better came along (a girlfriend) that you'd rather spend the money on is FRAUD! Acting like "robin hood" is not a legal defense in NY! When you don't pay what you agreed to pay, to whom you agreed to pay it, on time and in full you are stealing services - eventually the court will agree - that's why people's salaries get garnished - they worked, they earned it, but the courts say it is NOT their money - it belongs to the people the owe! Social security has appointed be as rep payee for dad - that gives me the legality to spend (or save) his ss as I see fit - MY questions revolves around that fact the dad still has $1,200 a month remaining in his control AFTER his SS and that is insufficient - he still wants more to give to her.

Incidentally - this woman is in this country illegally - since she doesn't have a green card, she cannot get legal work - offered to employ her off the books as a housekeeper - I told dad I would not GIVE her his SS money, but would pay her for services such as cooking for dad, cleaning his house, dusting, laundry, etc - SHE refused!

Comments? Opinions?

Thanks

Howard

[ScottGem]

I'm concerned about this appointment by the SSA. I was not aware they had the right to do such a thing. The SSA is responsible for paying out what a person has earned during their working years. They have no rights, as far as I know, to make judgements about how a person spends that money.

I REALLY think you need to consult an attorney knowledgeable about elder care laws about this. I suspect your father agreed to giving you responsibility while in the office but could rescind that at any time.

Again, I understand your issues. You are trying to be a good son and care for your father. And you are getting frustrated that he doesn't care for himself. But legally, you are on very shaky ground here.