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As usual there are contradictory passages in the Bible...
The Bible contains some passages which appear to say clearly and unambiguously that once a person gains salvation, they can never lose it. If you want to believe you can NOT lose your salvation, then there's these examples: John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (NIV) The key words in this verse are "whoever believes...shall...have eternal life." "Whoever" certainly appears to be an totally inclusive term, granting salvation to everyone who believes - irrespective of their behavior. It would seem to apply to persons of both sexes, all races, all nationalities, all sexual orientations, all degrees of ability, etc. The "shall" makes salvation definite and permanent. John 6:37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Presumably the phrase "him that cometh to me" refers to anyone who is saved. Jesus apparently says that he will never reject a saved individual. John 6:40: "....every one which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" This passage appears to imply that every person who is saved will be raised from the dead; none of those who had been saved will be lost. The first phrase is presumably not to be taken literally, as people today cannot visually see Jesus during their life on earth. The NIV translates it as "everyone who looks to the Son." The Amplified Bible says "everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him..." This is an enormous expansion of the original Greek and introduces many concepts not present in the Greek original. John 10:28-29: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." This is a very strong statement on the permanence of salvation. Jesus appears to state that after he gives an individual eternal life, they shall never perish but continue to have eternal life, even though others might try to interfere. Romans 8:38-39: "...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." This passage does not directly mention salvation. However, a connection might be inferred: to have the love of God could means that the person is saved and will go to Heaven; to be subject to the wrath of God would mean that they were unsaved and will end up in Hell. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22: "... [God] anointed us. Set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (NIV) This passage apparently states that, once we are saved, God guarantees our salvation; we are secure. 1 John 4:13-17: "By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit... and the one who abides in love abides in God and God abides in him... we may have confidence in the day of judgment... " This passage appears to indicate that once saved, we can have confidence that we will enter heaven. Clearly, clear! :) |
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Then... if you want to believe you CAN lose your salvation... theres these examples!
Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved." The implication is that someone who does not stands firm to the end will not be saved. Some theologians dismiss this interpretation; they believe that a person who does not stand firm never was saved in the first place; thus all that are truly saved will continue in that state. John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but may have eternal life." (NAB) The NIV translation of this verse (described above) implies that everyone who believes "shall" have eternal life. The Amplified Bible agrees. But other translations use alternative words: "should," "may," or "might." These latter version of the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) imply that saved persons may have eternal life or possibly may perish. Presumably they could lose their salvation by their actions. This is superb example of how Bible translators can select words which match their own theological belief systems. The NAB translation is used extensively by Roman Catholics who believe that an individual can lose their salvation may times during their lifetime, and frequently regain it by sincerely participating in church sacraments. Those conservative Christians who believe that one cannot lose ones salvation frequently use the NIV translation. John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV) A person who "does not remain" in Jesus is apparently a saved person whose behavior or thoughts have become unacceptable. Throwing the formerly saved person into the fire and burning them is an obvious reference to Hell. 1 Corinthians 15-2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." Paul apparently believes that a person is only saved if they continue to believe in the gospel. If they lose faith in the gospel, presumably they lose their salvation. Some conservative theologians believe that this verse also refers to those who were not really initially saved. Galatians 6:8-9: "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in going good, for at the proper time, we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." (NIV) This passage appears to make salvation dependent on an individual continually working towards their goal of attaining eternal life. If a person gives up prematurely, then they would lose their salvation. 2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us." Elsewhere in the Bible a number of verses refer to saved persons reigning with Jesus. So, the "we" in this passage apparently means saved individuals. But if we "deny and disown and reject" (Amplified Bible) Jesus, then he will do the same to us, and presumably terminate our salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame." The first two verses define precisely an individual who had being saved and was receiving the benefits of salvation. The last verse states clearly that a person is quite capable of falling away from the faith... and if they do so, that it is impossible for their salvation to be renewed. Christians who believe that a person can never lose their salvation may interpret this passage as meaning: 1. That they were never true believers in the first place, and thus were never initially saved, or 2. That Verse 6 says that a saved person who rejected Jesus and denied the Christian faith would never be able to repent in the future. If they could never repent, then they could never be saved again. However, it is not clear why they could not repent a second time. If they repented once, there does not seem to be any obvious reason why they could not repeat the process at a later time. This passage has caused some theologians to doubt that Hebrews was written by an apostle. Some church leaders have been convinced to "refuse the right of lapsed believers to be reinstated in the church..." 1 Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." The early Christians universally believed that this passage referred to persons who had been saved, had continued to sin, and had thereby lost their salvation. Some present-day theologians teach that this verse refers only to the unsaved. 2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them." The first verse appears to refer to persons who have turned away from the corruption of the world, have been saved, and later returned entangled in the world. The implication is that these people will be more viciously treated after death by God's wrath than those people who were never saved. Losing one's salvation through forbidden behaviors: Three verses from the Christian Scriptures seem to imply that certain behaviors will cancel a person's salvation. Three passages declare absolutely that all persons who perform certain behaviors will not "inherit the kingdom of God". These verses seem to be absolute. That is, they apply to everyone, even to those who have been previously saved: 1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."(ASV) St. Paul appears to state that some members of the church at Corinth were once following some of the behaviors listed and would thus not inherit the kingdom of God. But after they were saved, they changed their behavior. But the passage does seem to state unambiguously that all individuals who commit one of the forbidden sins after having been saved will go to hell. There are 11 activities listed here that can prevent an individual from going to heaven. We have studied these verses as they appear in 24 English versions of the Bible and found some curious results: There is little agreement on the first activity listed in Verse 9: 7 versions translated it as unrighteous; 6 as wrongdoers or people who do wrong; 3 as wicked, 3 as unjust; 2 as evil-doers or evil people. Finally, two translations seem to refer to the previous passage which discusses the evil of believers going to judges outside the Christian community to settle problems. Since 100% of the human race does wrong or some evil sometime during their life, many translations would imply that we are all doomed. All translations condemn: adulterers [two persons engaging in sexual intercourse while one or both is married] using terms like adultery, unfaithful in marriage criminal activity by robbers, extortioners, swindlers, cheaters, thieves idolaters [people who worship idols] drunkards thieves, using terms steal, thieves, and cheats greedy persons, described as covetous, greedy, avaricious, and selfish slanderers, described as revilers, slanderers, lie about others, abusive, etc. Its all sooooooo confusing!:confused: :) |
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Cont.' from above quote! :)
The translators were divided on one activity: some implied fornication [sexual intercourse outside of marriage] using such terms as: fornicators, sin sexually, sexually immoral, and profligates. Others used more general terms such as immoral and impure which do not necessarily relate to sexual activity. The remaining two activities in the body of Verse 9 have been variously translated in different versions of the Bible as: effeminate which covers a wide range of male behavior such as being unmanly, lacking virility, decadent, excessively soft or gentle. homosexuals, described as men who have sexual relations with other men, abusers of themselves with men, sodomites and perverts. Lesbians do not appear to be included in this condemnation, because the verse refers only to males. male prostitutes, also described as men kept for unnatural purposes. It is not clear whether the term "male prostitutes" is restricted to homosexual hookers or may also include men who are heterosexual prostitutes. catamites, also described as boy prostitutes. This is a young male who is kept as a sexual partner of an adult male. Often, he would be a slave with no freedom to avoid sexual acts perpetrated by his owner. The original Greek text describes the second of the two behaviors as malakoi arsenokoitai. Malakoi means soft; the meaning of arsenokoitai has been lost. The phrase was once used to refer to a male temple prostitute. Some sources in the early Church interpreted the phrase as referring to people of soft morals; i.e. unethical. That may well be the correct meaning, because presumably people from that era would have still known the meaning of the word arsenokoitai. At the time of Martin Luther, it was interpreted as referring to masturbation. More recently, it has been translated as referring to homosexuals. Each translator seem to take whatever activity that their faith group particularly disapproves of at the time and uses it in this verse. The correct translation for the first of the two behaviors is most likely to be catamites, a boy or young male who engaged in sexual activities with men. A footnote to the New American Bible reads: "The Greek word translated as "boy prostitutes" [in 1 Cor. 6:9] designated catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world... The term translated "practicing homosexuals" refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys." 2 It would appear that the best guess translation for these two behaviors might be: "male child abusers and the boys that they rape". Unfortunately, such a phrase would be unacceptable to most denominations, because At 9 words, the resultant phrase would be too lengthy; translators prefer short descriptions it would show that St. Paul believed that innocent young slaves and other children would be condemned to hell for activities which were outside their control. This would be fundamentally unjust, and difficult for may Christians to accept today. Victimizing the victim is unacceptable to most people. many conservative faith groups consider consensual sex between committed same-sex adults to be almost as serious a personal sin as the raping of children. By deviating from the Greek text and adopting the more inclusive English word "homosexual", they can condemn these individuals. We agree with the Roman Catholic translators that St. Paul is probably condemning that small minority of male adults who are child rapists and the male children that they sexually abuse. This criminal behavior is not connected in any way with homosexual activity with a fellow adult within a loving, committed relationship. Galatians 5:19-20: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are (these): fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revelings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (ASV) The first sin, fornication, will cause most people to lose their salvation. The average age at which a youth in North America becomes sexually active is 16, whereas the average age at first marriage is over 25. This provides an opportunity for fornication which typically lasts for about a decade. Surveys show that in excess of 90% of young adults do not remain celibate before marriage. Add to this the 25 to 40% of married couples who engage in extra-marital sex, and just about the entire population is doomed to hell after death. And this does not take into account any of the other, very common sins of envy, jealousy, strife which are near universally expressed sometimes during each person's life. The Christian church has traditionally added suicide to these lists of behaviors, although there appears to be little justification for this move. bullet Ephesians 5:5-6: "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person...has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God...God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient." (NIV) This appears to be another blanket condemnation of people who will be denied access to heaven because of their conduct. No exception appears to be made for saved persons. "No...person" would seem to mean "no...person." God's wrath would imply permanent residence in Hell. Losing one's salvation by committing the unforgivable sin: Three passages in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke discusses a unique class of sin which God will not forgive. Committing this sin would presumably prevent a person from being saved or would cancel the salvation of a believer. |
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Hey not to make light of it, but really, when you are TRULY saved, in your heart, you will know it. If you are asking if you get saved and then you sin, are you not saved anymore. The answer is no, you are still saved. Which means that your sins were forgiven. I think its impossible to be perfect and never sin after salvation, but admittingly, sinning draws us away from a relationship with God. It seem like the more I sin the further away from God I become. When you sin, you need to repent ( which means turn away from) sin, and then you will become forgiven. I think this very overlooked aspect of salvation on the subject of forgiveness. You can't just ask for forgiveness and expect to be forgiven if you are still sinning. That is asking for forgiveness without repentance and it just doesn't work that way.
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Actually the once saved always saved is only believed in a very small amount of christianity, the majority of Christian faiths teach there are conditions that can effect salavation, such as rejecting it.
It is a much newer teaching of some fundermetalist churches, and not a belief within the older of the churches. And as noted, it is based normally by taking a few verses not in context with the other verses that show it may be possible to lose that salvation, as noted by another poster before. Each side uses the very same bible, using verses to prove their case, as noted there is one bible, and one can not disguard either view points since they have bibical basis. And again this board is not used to insult any other member for their beliefs, this board is first open to all, Chritian or not, and for Christians, they are all welcome here with their beliefs, they are not "wrong" for their beleifs, and should not be rated so, merely because your denomination says they are. Free discussion of why, sharing bibile verses to show your point of view, would be the proper usage, Since board like this include people of many view points, more freedom of expression is allowed, but being nice and playing well with others. Use jesus as our example, he practiced the Jewish faith, taught in jewish temples and followed most of jewish laws, so as he did not attack that teaching, we do not attack the teachings of others, |
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I was saved when I was a child, because I believed in my head to be true, I was saved as an adult because I believed it in HEART to be true. I never knew the difference until it actually happened. I think Satan likes us to believe we are already saved and Christians when we really aren't. That way he has power over us and doesn't haven't to worry about us getting close to God.
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 Originally Posted by krystal1973
Each group quotes their favorite sayings from scripture and each groups is firmly convinced that it is right and the other group is wrong. There isn't much you can do in this kind of stand-off except slug it out, unless reasonable minds are prepared to look at everything the Bible says on the subject, in which case the light generated can be amazing. Perhaps we have to wait until we stand before the Bar of God's Judgement in that Great Day to find out who was right after all, by which time it will be too late to do anything other than apologize or gloat, according to the outcome. Were I to be asked my opinion, I would recommend being as safe as possible and heeding what Paul was saying when he wrote: Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. M:)RGANITE . |
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I have unfortunately met a few people that believe their "alter call from the 70's" is ALL they needed to be concerned with... the type that will tell you, "If good works DON'T get you "in"....then why bother!!
Seriously sad. Although we'll NEVER be perfect, there is that saying, "Go and sin no more"... its something worth TRYING. Now, as for your question... or was it a thought? Anyway, I will give you the best, most truthful undeniable answer out there in 3 words or less... . . . . . . . . . . . I DON'T KNOW. Thank You... Thank you very much! :) |
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Originally Posted by go-ask-mom
M:)RGANITE |
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Morganite,
Being perfect IS GOD"s standard. What should He say?. go and try to be the best you can. He can't say that. BUT... HE knows we can't be perfect so he send HIS SON to be perfect for us. HIS STANDARD never changes... WE are to be holy even as HE IS HOLY again HIS STANDARD!! But when I fall short.. I hold on to HIS PROVISION!. JESUS. However... eternity is different. We will be made into HIS likeness. We will be perfect ONE DAY... just NOT now... |
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Hello Go-ask-mom,
One day we will all be perfect but not until it is time for us to be made perfect. Right now as sinful huans we are imperfect. Jesus came to earth to set matters straight so that once we have gained eternal life, we will be able to reach perfection. Until then we must work and do the very best we can to follow Jesus' example closely. Remember this, we can not be perfect now. We are humans and sinful. Once we receive eternal life from God, then we will become perfect. Just a side point here. Have you ever wondered what it would feel like to be perfect? Perfect body, mind, looks, and perfect thoughts and understanding? Wow! Now that is something to think about. Take care, Hope12 |
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Hello Everyone,
How too soon we forget! Remember the “Son of Sam?” He Killed six people and wounded others. Yet David Berkowitz claimed to be saved at a church meeting about 4 years prior to his killings. An army friend of his told him he wanted to go back for the evening program to make sure he was saved and that it took. One of the members of the church he went to declared: “ I am just thankful he was saved.” Why? “The Bible says, once saved, always saved.” (Taken from the New York Post, August 25,1977, PAGE 2) Is the “Once saved always saved teaching, really come from the Bible? NO it does not! Many who are sincere though feel that the Bible does say that. It’s true the Bible does say that the basis for salvation is not one’s works but, rather faith in Jesus Christ, along with God’s grace and mercy. Eph. 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:4,5. Why even at 1 John 5:13 Jesus himself said: “he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life.” (AV) The problem though is that some believe this to say that once one has everlasting life that he/she actually possesses it permanently, and they can never loss it. That belief is what brought the teaching of “once saved, always saved.” But what about the scriptures that state: “He that endureth to the end shall be saved>” Matthew 10:22; 24:12,13; Mark 13:13 (AV) How can we understand these scriptures? Where God’s servants contradicting themselves? Or where they just expressing themselves from different points of view? The apostle Paul harmonizes each viewpoint. Hebrews 13:4 “For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.” (AV) Paul liken our Christian course to a race, and we need to run that race to the end, The prize is everlasting life. No prize is ever given until the race has been won. There must be endurance until the end of the race. Some will tire out and go astray and some will finish the race. However, there is no prize until we finish. Once we have entered that race by being “saved” a Christian takes hold of the life which is life indeed, But it is possible to lose grip on life. Paul again tells us the one who finishes the race gets the prize so Paul urges us “So run that you may obtain it.:” Then Paul uses himself as an example and makes the point of his illustration, he continues: “I pummel my body and subdue it. Least after preaching to others, I myself should be disqualified. 1 Timothy 6:19 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. Paul also warns against becoming overconfident, he uses the example of the Israelites who were saved through the Red Sea, yet fell into sin and wrong behavior in the wilderness. Paul warns. “We must not put the Lord to the test.” “Let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.” Yes even saved ones can fall. 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 RSV The Apostle Paul constantly warns all saved Christians to be on guard. They even though being saved can loss the salvation if they do not endure on the Christian course to life. Any who truly appreciate salvation provided through Christ and God’s grace will never become overconfident. They will work hard to stay in the race for life and endure to the end where they then will receive the prize of everlasting life. May every person work out their salvation with fear and trembling. Phil. 2:12 (AV) The “once saved always saved” is not a Bible teaching and has been proven wrong by those such as the Son of Sam and others who prior to such horrific crimes have claimed to be saved thinking they can commit such crimes and still be saved. It does not work like that nor is it just faith in Christ. Just my opinion according to my understanding of the scriptures. Take care, Hope12 |
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