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self_lnflicted_hell · Jul 21, 2007, 06:04 AM

Everyone has questions! I don't care how religious or how non religious you are. Just some are raised to believe so strongly or others are so warped to even think of asking questions that might interfere with their beliefs.

JoeCanada76 · Jul 21, 2007, 06:11 AM

Hello everybody,

Well I just want to ask a question. Do you have proof that air is in the air? We are breathing but can we see the air? It is there, and we just know it is there. EDIT::::: THIS IS JUST TO EXPLAIN THAT THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT ARE UNSEEN BUT DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT EXIST.

There are so many things even scientists do not have proof of. Many scientists and many schools teach scientific theories. Which another word or definition of theory is a belief. It is not fact.

All I can say is look at all around you, all around us. Life in itself, can it be explained? For me God is in everything, all around everything and is the start of all the processes and continue to be in the presence of all life. It is a belief. The fact is I am here, and you are. We all are entitled to share our beliefs and thoughts. For me it is fact. If I were not here or anybody else then there would be no fact. We could not have created ourselves.

Joe

Capuchin · Jul 21, 2007, 06:29 AM

Joe, a scientific theory is fact, it fits all available evidence. We have plenty of proof that air is made of molecules and that "air" is in it.

Your argument has a load of holes.

JoeCanada76 · Jul 21, 2007, 06:43 AM

Actually no it does not have any holes, it is not even an argument. Big bang is a scientific theory, it is not fact.

Evolution is a scientific theory, it is not fact. There are so many theories and all of them are just that theories, not fact.

The air thing was my idea, but as far as scientific theories, it is just that a theory, not FACT.

define:scientific theory - Google Search

Capuchin · Jul 21, 2007, 07:06 AM

Thank you for proving my point "A theory is a former hypothesis that has been tested with repeated experiments and observations and found always to work."

It is fact.

Allheart · Jul 21, 2007, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Freethinka

How much longer before he come back,
anyone know, let me know please...

Hi Free -

As Tessy said so well, we are unable to "prove" anything. But yes, Faith, is your answer.
Although, you can actually see God and Jesus in others. In the beauty of the things He created. In the miracle of life.

Just as I can not see the love my Mother has for me. I can't see it, I can't touch it, but I believe and have faith that she does. It's the same for the love of God.

I see God's work on a daily basis. I see it on the face of someone so severely handicap, and yet, when they look up at you, the smile... I know that may sound odd and perhaps it is, but I actually do see the love of God during that time.

I think I am doing more rambling the answering your question :o Sorry.

To believe is to see.

Capuchin · Jul 21, 2007, 07:14 AM

God gave us brains so that we could discover, why then do you disagree with what we have discovered using our god-given abilities?

JoeCanada76 · Jul 21, 2007, 07:29 AM

There have been great discoveries, scientific and others. God has given us all abilities. There are some things that just remain theories, and are not fact. For me the fact is nothing would be possible without God.

Freethinka · Jul 21, 2007, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Capuchin

god gave us brains so that we could discover, why then do you disagree with what we have discovered using our god-given abilities?

Isn't nothing is wrong with the absolute truth.

Originally Posted by Allheart

Hi Free -

As Tessy said so well, we are unable to "prove" anything. But yes, Faith, is your answer.
Although, you can actually see God and Jesus in others. In the beauty of the things He created. In the miracle of life.

Just as I can not see the love my Mother has for me. I can't see it, I can't touch it, but I beleive and have faith that she does. It's the same for the love of God.

I see God's work on a daily basis. I see it on the face of someone so severly handicap, and yet, when they look up at you, the smile...I know that may sound odd and perhaps it is, but I actually do see the love of God during that time.

I think I am doing more rambling the answering your question: to Sorry.

To believe is to see.

No... To believe is to not be sure of what you are looking at or dealing with..

Tessy777 · Jul 21, 2007, 02:43 PM

Well Freethinka,

This is how I see it. YOU say you have to SEE to believe... and GOD says you don't. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead there were many people there... they saw it with their own eyes!! And yet, the Bible records that some left.. unbelieving!! So there you go. Jesus raised a man from the dead!! He proved over and over who He was and yet... some still said NO! You don't need proof dude.. what you need is faith. I can't give that to you... what you need to do is ask God for it.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Freethinka · Jul 21, 2007, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Tessy777

Well Freethinka,

This is how i see it. YOU say you have to SEE to believe... and GOD says ya don't. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead there were many people there...they saw it with their own eyes!!! And yet, the Bible records that some left..unbelieving!!! So there you go. Jesus raised a man from the dead!!! He proved over and over who He was and yet...some still said NO! You don't need proof dude..what you need is faith. I can't give that to you...what you need to do is ask God for it.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Tessy777: what a trick proposition, you seem to have mastered your skills in persuasion, Freethinka reject the bait. It all mean, what you are saying is that, I would be a child of zorasta. Freethinka devoid of faith, and I would continue to be devoid of belief!

Capuchin · Jul 21, 2007, 03:12 PM

Joe, as far as I see it, creationism is an approximation of the truth, it fits all of the evidence of speciation that was found 2000 years ago. Evolution is a new theory which is a closer approximation to the truth, we have new evidence that creationism fails to describe, evolution is a theory that explains all of the evidence that we have at the present time. Both are theories, but one fits more of the facts than another. This makes creationism an obsolete theory, it has been superceded by a more powerful theory. Much like how Newtonian gravity was superceded by the more powerful general relativity.

It's certain in the scientific community that creationism isn't the truth, there's too much that it cannot explain in the same way that it's certain that Newtonian gravity is not the truth. General relativity and Evolution describe all of the available evidence, they are better approximations of the truth. As we discover more evidence, we will need better approximations. This is how science works. Theories are not "just theories" they are the truth as far as we can possibly know it. Please be careful not to misrepresent science through ignorance, as I'm certain that that is not your intention.

Freethinka · Jul 21, 2007, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Capuchin

Joe, as far as I see it, creationism is an approximation of the truth, it fits all of the evidence of speciation that was found 2000 years ago. Evolution is a new theory which is a closer approximation to the truth, we have new evidence that creationism fails to describe, evolution is a theory that explains all of the evidence that we have at the present time. Both are theories, but one fits more of the facts than another. This makes creationism an obsolete theory, it has been superceded by a more powerful theory. Much like how Newtonian gravity was superceded by the more powerful general relativity.

It's certain in the scientific community that creationism isn't the truth, there's too much that it cannot explain in the same way that it's certain that Newtonian gravity is not the truth. General relativity and Evolution describe all of the avaliable evidence, they are better approximations of the truth. As we discover more evidence, we will need better approximations. This is how science works. Theories are not "just theories" they are the truth as far as we can possibly know it. Please be careful not to misrepresent science through ignorance, as I'm certain that that is not your intention.

Capuchin I couldn't say it any better Freethinka agree.

Starman · Jul 21, 2007, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Freethinka

Starman; Freethinka isn't looking for exegesis!!! I simply, want someone to come forth with truth. In a court of law. If you don't have no proof. You don't have a case...
Or, in religion, the law is the exact opposite, is this where faith and belief come in.

Freethinka is tickled pink for your answers!

Proof
The proof provided has to be relevant to the accusation? Your accusation seems to be that we have no logical basis to believe in Jesus' return. I provided the logical reason why we are justified in believing in Jesus' return. If indeed you see no logic in such a logical response then you need to take a course in logic 101 in order benefit from any logical answer given. Otherwise you will continue not to see the woods for the trees and decide to evade the whole perplexing conundrum by simply describing yourself as feeling tickled "pink."

Exegesis

First, in reference to you, I am primarily using logic, or cogent reasoning in order to explain the Christian reason for our belief, not biblical exegesis. Why? Because to use biblical exegesis with a person who disbelieves the Bible is illogical. Since your question is one that seems to challenge the logic of Christian belief in the second coming of Jesus. So I provide you with logical reasons we believe.

Biblical Exegesis
From the Catholic Encyclopedia

Exegesis is the branch of theology which investigates and expresses the true sense of Sacred Scripture.

Biblical Exegesis

The scriptures I provided needed no exegesis because the meaning of what they are saying is clear. What God foretells comes to pass. So which particular scripture you accuse me of trying to shed light upon via an explanation is beyond me. Again, pray tell!

Truth

Mark 13:32
"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The truth is that no Christian claims to know the exact time of Jesus' return. So if no Christian is claiming to know--why are you asking Christians to tell you? Furthermore, if Christians keep telling you they don't know, why do you keep asking them to tell you?
Is it logical to insist that Christians know when they clearly keep telling you that they don't?

Court of Law

If in a court of law I am asked the basis for my trust in promises found in a certain book
And I tell the judge that I trust those promises because the book's promises have never failed, he would view the basis for my trust in those promises as justified. In fact, distrust of such an unfailing book would be viewed in a court of law as illogical and totally unjustified.

Here is an informative site providing you with a logical reason why we trust the Bible as the word of God and its promises as trustworthy.

Prophecies Concerning Israel
Israel To Be Conquered By Assyria
Israel To Return To Their Land
Judah To Go Into Babylonian Exile
The People Would Return From Exile
Rebirth Of Israel As A Nation

Prophecies Concerning Israel's Neighbors
Prophecy Against Tyre
Prophecy Against Sidon
Prophecy Against Edom

Prophecies Concerning World History
Rise And Fall Of Babylon
Rise And Fall Of Persia
Rise And Fall Of Greece

Prophecies Concerning Jesus
Time Of Death
Manner Of Death
Conclusion

Proving the Bible is Divine Through Prophecy

BTW
This is a bit off topic but I think you should know that not all scientists believe in a Godless universe. Also, please don't make an appeal to bandwagon or the majority is always right fallacy.

Excerpt

Today there are thousands of scientists who are creationists and who repudiate any form of molecules-to-man evolution in their analysis and use of scientific data. Creation scientists can now be found in literally every discipline of science, and their numbers are increasing rapidly. Evolutionists are finding it increasingly difficult to maintain the fiction that evolution is "science" and creation science is "religion". When news media personnel and others make such statements today, they merely reveal their own liberal social philosophies — not their awareness of scientific facts.
Lists of scientists are divided into sections. Choose a list below.

» Scientists in the Physical Sciences
» Scientists in the Biological Sciences
» Scientist List FAQ

Creation Scientists - Institute for Creation Research

Do real scientists believe in Creation? - ChristianAnswers.Net

Why Some Scientists Believe in God - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

METERRE · Jul 21, 2007, 07:36 PM

Hello again. Well all this that Freethinka has been saying sounds to me like he's stating that there's either science, or there's God. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
But In the Bible it also says that God created science. And He gave us a brain with which we could use it. If He hadn't created science, or given us the abilities our brain has, then we'd know nothing about how this world works. Scientists have been discovering principles used throughout the Bible and by Jesus which barely now they are proving to be right.
That molecule thing to me is very senseless. If we had been created by some cell or something of that nature, then what created the cell? And what created the thing that created the cell? And so on and so forth. What do you think was the very first molecule, cell or whatever that ever existed? How did that very first thing come to exist in the first place?? I am left with no answer, aren't you?
And just repeating what others have already told you, the Book of Rev. says Jesus will come when we least expect it, so how in the world are we supposed to know. Yet again some of those prophecies have to be fulfilled prior to his coming. Those will be the signs.
Actually we're not supposed to know the exact time he'll come, because Jesus wants us to be prepared, as in follow him, no matter if he won't come in our lifetime. To live each day as if it were our last. To not have to worry about knowing when he'll come because you will know that you'll be saved whenever he comes.
So conclusion... science is not only of man. God created science. But one cell did not create man... there's no proof.

otto186 · Jul 21, 2007, 07:42 PM

It says in Revelations that God will appear in the beginning of the end of the world to collect all his disciples and followers and take them to the gates of Heaven. The rest shall be left to suffer a fate far worse than death.

letmetellu · Jul 21, 2007, 07:49 PM

I have a question for you, is the sun going to rise in the morning? Show Me Proof, or are you like me and just have faith that it is going to.

So have a good day tomorrow.

otto186 · Jul 21, 2007, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by letmetellu

I have a question for you, is the sun going to rise in the morning? Show Me Proof, or are you like me and just have faith that it is going to.?

So have a good day tomorrow.

To answer your question, with the rotation of the Earth on its axis, which I am almost positive hasn't stopped, yes the sun will rise in the morning.

babieface85 · Jul 21, 2007, 08:58 PM

No one is trying to force any belief on you. We all our entitled to our own opinions and you clearly want nothing more then to bring down the options of others. If no one is asking you to place faith in heavenly father and Jesus Christ then why are you asking people to doubt their beliefs? This forum is not designed for picking fights.

otto186 · Jul 21, 2007, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by babieface85

No one is trying to force any belief on you. We all our entitled to our own opinions and you clearly want nothing more then to bring down the options of others. If no one is asking you to place faith in heavenly father and Jesus Christ then why are you asking people to doubt their beliefs? This forum is not designed for picking fights.

Your post is confusing. Are you talking to the OP or me? Use the quote user button:)