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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,020, Reputation: 157
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    #1

    Feb 20, 2024, 06:01 AM
    Needed on AMHD
    A couple of liberal voices capable of engaging in serious, thoughtful discussions on the issues of the day. I often wonder if such people really exist.

    "The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe something without evidence." Aldous Huxley
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #2

    Feb 20, 2024, 06:37 AM
    Don't ask me. I am one of the most (classical) liberal persons in my circle acquaintances.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,020, Reputation: 157
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    #3

    Feb 20, 2024, 06:41 AM
    How is classical liberalism defined?

    Found on the web. "Classical liberalism is a political-philosophical doctrine that advocates individual freedom, limited government, and free markets."

    I see what you mean. I would put myself in that camp as well. Sadly, the modern pack of liberals are far removed from that.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,020, Reputation: 157
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    #4

    Feb 20, 2024, 06:46 AM
    You have taught me something this morning. "It differs from modern liberalism in its emphasis on laissez-faire economics and its view of the government as a necessary evil." I have known that liberalism is not what it used to be but had never bothered to see what it used to be.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #5

    Feb 20, 2024, 09:05 AM
    You know I refused to answer a similar question when Athos asked me to define socialism . That is because there is no short answer and any answer I would've given would've been incomplete and have holes easily attacked .

    That being said ; classical liberallism was the philosopy of the founding of the US

    It's common themes are free market ; close to laisse fare ....limited government interference in the market ;individual liberty ;property rights ,minimal government intrusion in the affairs of the individual .

    Wealth is not derived from the government but from the free economic exchanges of the people . Government power comes from the people , Rights are not derived from the government Governments are only established to protect rights. Rights are natural (not derived by humans ) .
    Governments are bound by the rule of laws that are created by the people .

    To understand it further one has to understand the economic and political philosophies of the Enlightenment thinkers like John Locke ;Adam Smith and perhaps Immanual Kant (as well as the American founders like Jefferson )

    But it gets more complicated because not all the Enlightenment thinkers held values I share . Some elevated humans too much and like Rousseau thought human nature basically good . He thought humans equal and inequalities are artificial constructs that governments needed to correct .

    To get more detailed would require an essay's worth of writing .

    Today's "liberals " are in my view illiberal They have coopted the word . To simplify it too much it comes down to rights . Classical liberals think of rights as what are called 'negative rights' ..... Rights someone has from the government .
    Today's "liberals " aka progressives believe in rights the government must do for people ;like universal income .
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,514, Reputation: 1860
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    #6

    Feb 20, 2024, 10:30 AM
    I'm still keeping an eye on things, but more participants would be good..
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,020, Reputation: 157
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    #7

    Feb 20, 2024, 11:59 AM
    You know I refused to answer a similar question when Athos asked me to define socialism . That is because there is no short answer and any answer I would've given would've been incomplete and have holes easily attacked .
    As an economic theory it's pretty straightforward, but it does seem to go beyond that with political implications.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #8

    Feb 21, 2024, 05:19 AM
    It is well beyond an economic theory and has it's roots at least as far as Plato's collectivism . And like Plato's political philosophy ;society is ruled by an elite group of decision makers . He believed in rule by philosophers.

    For Plato, as for Solon, government exists for the benefit of all citizens and all social classes, and must mediate between potentially conflicting interests. Such a mediating force is exercised in the ideal city of the Republic by the philosopher-rulers.
    Plato: Political Philosophy | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (utm.edu)

    As Orwell notes the utopian ideal gets replaced by the pig rulers .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,020, Reputation: 157
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    #9

    Feb 21, 2024, 05:30 AM
    . And like Plato's political philosophy ;society is ruled by an elite group of decision makers . He believed in rule by philosophers.
    Technically, an oligarchy.

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