[eswaff]

I have roughly between 5000-5500 sqft of drywall that needs to be finished, which will be the easiest finish (knockdown wall and ceiling). Have been quoted from $1800-$2500 to finish. Each finisher I have spoken with said it will require roughly between 23-30 hours to finish. I am pproviding all material except corner bead and if I calculate this averaging 25 hours and the $1800 quote this is roughly $72 an hour for labor. Is this reasonable and if so, why would anyone go to college instead of just becoming really good at finishing drywall? Location is in Iowa.

[21boat]

To be fair to all, a real good fast drywall finisher is like going to College. Now imagine going to college and getting a job that's weekly with no benefits or 401K or retirement plan. That's 80% of construction. With out us highly skilled construction workers to build the college a lab experiment would be tough to accomplish with no structure.
Nothing against college but explain how a collage grad goes back to collage, takes a couple of more courses and gets thousands of dollars more for a raise and yet there at the same job position now as what they were before they re schooled.

As human nature goes the finisher guess estimated to 20 to 30 hrs. Will you pay the Diff if it takes him 40 hrs? The door swings both ways.
Not busting on you here but good drywall finishers are getting scarce. Plain and simple the collage people need us construction workers as we need the collage people. Imagine a collage grad in there job for 5 years and now the company tells you, 'Well we need to move your desk and computer because we have a job across town" Thats construction

Your quotes sounds MORE than reasonable 5,000 + is a Lot of house. I would ask for references and another bid. Drywall finishing is like painting. Many collage / homeowners can paint but few would be considered a "painter" or drywall finisher.

You are running the numbers here so which is it, 5,000 or 5,500 square feet? Not very accurate in sq.ft. In all fairness I don't know why you chose an average of 25 hours when you numbers on your square footage difference is 1/3 off a 1,500 sq.ft. ranch house? 3 bedrooms plus.

The prices to hang and finish hovers around 38 to 49 per sheet. You have very good numbers there.

As far as a knock down finishing, I don't like any type, especially on walls where dirt hangs more. Knock down finish is getting more popular because it easier to cover bad seams and 1st coats. (Getting harder to find top finishers) I also hate popcorn ceilings. Hotels use that because it cheap and quick, Knock down adds much more to materials than reg drywall finish. Compressors etc. You do ceilings first for knock down. I feel for re sale value knock downs may subtract to a sale of the house later. I would rather use wall paper or borders, or nice crown/ or 1x4/6 baseboard with trim on that.

Signed 21 Boat

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[eswaff]

I agree with you 21boat that there are fewer and fewer highly skilled in the trade, however, I have to say that at $72 (and this is one guy, so yes he is getting all $72 hour)an hour you are boardering on and in many cases exceeding what some physicians make who have invested up to an additional 15 years of education at a cost of $150k and up, or a second house payment if you will and they deal with life and death. My estimate of between 5000-5500 is not a large margin of difference considering at .35 a sqft it is only a $175 difference.

As for "will I make up the difference if it takes him more time". NO, as I would not require him to be paid less if it takes him less time.

[Wondergirl]

You have hit on exactly my thoughts regarding "everyone should go to college." I'm hoping there will be more interest in vocational schools and training because too many kids who head off to college shouldn't be. Yay for the trades!

[arby808]

HI I own BRD Wallsystems in Green Bay Wi and why become a finisher when go to collage as 21 boat said drywall finishers are becoming hard to find because the young people don't want to work and yes drywall finishing is hard work it is very hard on your body just remember they charge so much because they will need that money to go to the doctor when they get older so my advice is take the collage

[21boat]

eswaff. I understand where you are coming from. But, I deal with life and death decisions on a weakly basis. Build scaffolding and walk the plank. Heavy equipment operator etc.

How about walking around the job site and backhoe runs you over or a backing dump truck. Or a brick falls on your head. A plank blow over, You jump in a ditch and brake an ankle. My friend had a piece of glass brake and hit him on the wrist, severed important nerves.. I have a rebuilt elbow with a 3" stainless screw in on. I had a dislocated shoulder and was re set at hospital X rays on operation/ To trauma automatically because I feel over 6 feet. One night stay at hospital no operation. $28.000.00

Construction is one of the dangerous occupations in the world.

I have $500,000+ in investment (equipment schooling cost) and I keep paying for school when my breakdowns cost on average $500.00 per week. Now lets insurance those tools and equipment not to mention Job insurance. Add to that health insurance. I wonder how much the docs health insurance cost for him relative to us construction workers.

I can't afford good health insurance because the Doctor visits are killing me. I go in for 8 to 10 min and pay $125.00. That's comes to $750.00 per hour. Ive seen a lot of good now poor construction workers that lost almost everything because they got hurt and can't afford the doctors visit.

Construction is one of the most dangerous jobs there are. When was the last time you heard a doctor was killed at his workplace?

So I have 30+ in schooling of the trades. My business to get out of the shop is in thousands of dollars for equipment. Job Insurance etc. And we didn't get to the job site yet.
Here's what I said to my doctor. I can rent a private helicopter that cost 1.5 to two million dollars that needs an airport and hanger to take off from and a mechanic to maintain it not to mention a pilot to support that helicopter. Add FAA regs etc My helicopter ride for one hour is a lot less than a one hour doctor visit. A doctor surgeon/ hospitable can bill out $100,000.00 to $250,000.00 A DAY for an operation. So what the sliding scale hear?? Eggs and gas for him and me cost the same.

Now lets add the unforeseen time here. How many rain days a year stop house building/construction?? How about freezing temps lost time and wages. So take the $75.00 per hour and work that into bad weather days of lost time etc. In a nice way the Country should be happy us construction workers are dumb enough not to demand more for pay.

When was the last time a doctor had to quit his job because his back blew out from laying to many blocks and pushing concrete in 95 degree days.

I'm one of rare dying dinosaurs in the trades. I'm a REAL stone mason/brick,block layer/Excavator/concrete finisher/plumber/electrician/roofer/etc. Build It ALL from the ground up no Subs. So what am I worth?

The next big recession/depression will be in 30 to 40 years from now. Basically there's know one in the trades that's coming up behind me with the old skills. To many construction workers that are replacing me are practicing out of States/country skills.

We are in trouble for good old fashion USA caliber construction tradesmen. The skill levels in Construction rapidly dying.

My one trade will survive because the harry the home owner will never be able to lay a brick wall that looks professional. A good drywall finisher is rare these days also. If hes/shes good then you have to pay for that. Its not about what diff in price.

[eswaff]

21boat. Awesome long sob story. However, I know of several indiviuals, including myself, who do something that is no where near construction as a career, yet if need be can finish drywall. Will it take them longer? YES will it look as good as a professional finish? Maybe or maybe not WIll average vistor to the home after it is complete and furniture in place, pictures on the wall know the difference? Unlikely

Now lets take your comparison? WIll the average joe that does not do medicine as a career be able to do medicine on the weekend or as a side job and not kill someone. No one who is not in medicine would ever dream of it. Yet weekend warriors do construction projects when time permits that sometimes end up being a hell of a lot better than having a "professional" do it.

BTW- the next recession/depression is a lot closer than 30 or 40 years with Obama and the Democrats spending money that has not even been created yet on studying manure smell in Iowa, and the life cycle of a fruit fly.

ALso, if you want to know why medicine cost so much these days look no further than the HMO Act in the late 70's produced by none other than Ted Kennedy and who else... democrats. But don't worry they are here to help.

[Wondergirl]

the life cycle of a fruit fly.

Those studies have saved human lives and may save yours one day. Fruit flies and humans share most of their genes, including 70 percent of all known human disease genes. And the short life cycle of the fly makes it an ideal subject for genetic experiments.

[kp2171]

Well, I live in the midwest and can give you two extremes.

The first millionaire I met and befriended didn't take a single college class, ever. He started a lawn care service. Grew it, then more, then sold it. Now he's a multimillionaire. College didn't make him successful. He learned his trade and knew how to run a business well. Probably had a few breaks in there too.

On the other side, I know a guy who does great drywall work. Fantastic. And even tho' he's got a couple decades of experience behind him, and enough references to fill a phone book, he's losing jobs left and right... long before any recession hit. He was being undercut on price with lower cost labor. People buying based on low bids, not quality of work or reputation.

So... a college degree doesn't guarantee you anything. I've worked and taught (at university) in the sciences and seen kids graduate with years of debt and a lower paycheck than a good HS grad salesperson. And on the flipside... I've seen people with experience, but not the degree, get left behind, with lower paychecks than needed.

As for medicine.. sure, the pay is huge... so defray your income for college, med school, post med school training (working insane hours) and then pay your insurance. I know a great doctor in California who gave up on med and sold real estate... made more coin that way and didn't have the insurance headaches... hed teach now and then at UCLA to be "active" in the field.

Know another successful, and relatively rich, doctor who constantly lived under the cloud of litigation. Was just absurd. Eventually he too left the clinic ranks, took a paycut, and retired teaching at a med school. Lovely when the structure of the field drives the best and brightest out of the front line ranks.

[21boat]

he's losing jobs left and right... long before any recession hit. he was being undercut on price with lower cost labor. people buying based on low bids, not quality of work or reputation

This is what's happening in all the trades. The harry homeowner these days doesn't know what good highly skilled construction work looks like. Its like comparing bad to worse. Not to pick on anyone here but the country is letting and getting cheap help in from out of the borders. I have been to those countries and places and SEEN how they do things. I'm been flown out of the states because of the big difference of how Mexico and Puerto Rico builds not to mention other countries. No add , we as contractors have to stay competitive and get CHEAP labor for help. So who ends up hurting because of this in the long run, customers.

On top of that add the Big Box stores selling the "do it yourself kit" "Get your Man a SAW for Christmas he's Mr handy Man. Ive been in many developments that there garages are filled with tools and the " sears work bench" and they build what? Then I run into the handy man that calls me for work and Mr. handy is now an expert on how I should build his addition. He has read " How To" on the Internet.

Whats killing the trades is simple and its been way before the hard times now. Heres the list.

The first beginning to that effect was the "Bob villa Show" etc etc. All the how to shows.
Then the big box stores popped up. Here it was Hechenier/ builders square/Home depot?Lowe's etc.

Now there was less work for the contractor. I started in the 70s, I've lived and SEEN the transition. I remember getting called to add shelves in a home or put up a fence etc, small pointing jobs etc. Ask the old contractors on this site in plumbing. how much work they lost over the big box stores for selling a faucet and the home owner installs it or tries. When he can't its OFF to the Internet contractors, or the " How Toos".

So America brought this on themselves. The REAL Contractors in this country are dieing along with old skills that will be forever forgotten.

Heres a good one. How many tradesmen out there know when replacing an old rotted sill to take his circ saw and measure back 5/8+ and saw a kurf under the sill long ways. This stops the water cohesion under the sill so the rain water doesn't drip back into the house and is stopped by one tiny saw cut.

This is an Excellent site for real prof to answer questions to help out the 'harry home owner" I have personally wondered how much damage I'm doing to the tradesmen here an a this service to all in that aspect. "hurting my predecessor"

It's a weired thing. Many of the questions here are because of bad construction workers which in turn are more out there because of cheap labor and the price is the bottom line for Harry Homeowner. I see less and less pride in workmanship and its ALL about price and quantity, not much about quality. I hope that doesn't get to the Doctor level and what if it did??

An old story: This factories heating and air condition kept braking down They called service men after service men. Spent many "thousands to try to get the system to run right. Well this old worn out tradesmen said I can fix your problem. It will cost $ 6,000 to fix. factory said go head and how long will it take? The repair man said not long. He went to his truck got out a wrench, tightened up a bolt on the system. and said/ " there you go fixed" pushed the button and she ran smooth. The factory was happy but said to the man. "Were aren't paying you $6.000.00 to turn a bolt" The tradesmen said " Oh turning getting here and turning the bolt was a service call and 1 hr min labor. That's $150.00. For the work. The $5,850.00 was for the knowledge for knowing which bolt to turn out of 50,000 bolts on the system."

So should he not help the suit and tie so to speak and now he taught them which bolt to turn and now he's out of work for any other service calls for the same problem.

So this is reality and how the trades are dieing in highly skilled tradesmen/builders

Good highly skilled tradesmen will be HARDER than finding a good doctor at some point. My first trade is a Mason and a REAL stone Mason. How many of MEs are left????? masonry is not like studding a wall in. ( No offense to real framers/layout men)
I'm a General Contractor, 28 years all in house. Highly skilled men work for me. Getting hard to keep it going. My youngest skilled worker is 38, Most all 45 and up.

My town founded in 1718. We have been noted for some of the best construction skills in the country. We have tons of homes on the national registry not to mention our steel company has received national bridge awards. I'm kind of in that barometer area of losing what my town was noted for. "highly skilled tradesmen" to many have retired or died off, and no one to replace us. One of the reasons I help answer on this site because there are some highly skilled tradesmen here to kick around in our world ideas and share them, and on turn help someone.

Sorry for the long post but maybe it needed said.

[JazMan]

Eswaff,

It was wrong thinking like yours that made me think charging $50-75 per hour or $400 per day was going to give me a decent living standard. It just doesn't work out that way in real life.

First of all IF he is there for only 25 hours, those 25 hours may be over 5-6 or more days. The drywall mud has to dry before he can sand and apply more. Plus how about the travel time to pick up materials on his day off? You have to remember the charge to you is his gross. From that you have to deduct all his costs and expenses. Those costs will likely be 35-45% of gross sales, and that is if he works all the time with no days off. Never happen.

Ask yourself this. Figure how much you make gross. Add to this figure all of the costs paid for you by your employer. Workman's comp, the employers part of the Social Security and medicare, hospital insurance, life insurance (?) vacation pay, sick pay, any other benefit. Then add a profit for the company. That is the "value" you bring to the company.

So, if you make, $1,000 per week, (to keep it simple), YOU are really costing your employer about $1400-1500. Now add the profit the company has to make to pay the bills and make a profit, and you had better produces a gross profit of at least $2400-2,500 per week on average or you get fired.

Jaz