[adam7gur]

The people of Israel were In Egypt , under the authourity of a cruel Pharaoh , they were working for him and he was their master.
Then comes Moses and says to them that the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob has sent him to set them free and also Moses goes many times to the Pharaoh and says to him in the name of God ''let My people go''.The Israelites believed in God's promise that He would free them from Egypt and did everything that God instructed them to do.After a while they were free to go.
During their journey to the promised land they were supposed to keep God's commandments but most of them did not , so they did not enter the promised land, although saved from Egypt and the Pharaoh.
Isn't this crystal clear that salvation and entering the Kingdom of Heaven are two different things?
Once again I ask.. from what are we saved?From what were the Israelites saved?Was that salvation taken away from them ever?And after being saved , did they all enter the promised land?
Salvation is forever because they were once and for all saved from Egypt(the world) and the Pharaoh(the devil) and they did not return even if some wanted to, but after that we have to obey our Lord so that we enter His Kingdom, otherwise He will say to us '' I don't know you ''!

[8120joy]

Are you looking for an answer to these questions? Or someone else's opinion?. or something else?

[450donn]

NOPE!
Just because you see the promised land does not mean you have the right to enter.
Sin is sin. How much plainer can it be?
IF you are saved and give your heard to God on Sunday and on Tuesday go out and rob a store for drug money and then somehow were to die, you will be judged, and your soul will go to the lake of fire. Now, on the other hand, if you give your heard to God on Sunday and on Monday, Tuesday, etc get down on your knees and ask God to forgive you for any sins you might have unknowlingly committed since you last talked to him and if you are truly repentant then those sins will be forgiven.
We all sin in our daily lives. That is why we need to be constantly talking to God so that we may be guided on the right and true path toward knowing Him better.

[8120joy]

You just want to preach? :D

OK

[De Maria]

The people of Israel were In Egypt , under the authourity of a cruel Pharaoh , they were working for him and he was their master.
Then comes Moses and says to them that the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob has sent him to set them free and also Moses goes many times to the Pharaoh and says to him in the name of God ''let My people go''.The Israelites believed in God's promise that He would free them from Egypt and did everything that God instructed them to do.After a while they were free to go.
During their journey to the promised land they were supposed to keep God's commandments but most of them did not , so they did not enter the promised land, although saved from Egypt and the Pharaoh.
Isn't this crystal clear that salvation and entering the Kingdom of Heaven are two different things?
Once again I ask .. from what are we saved?From what were the Israelites saved?Was that salvation taken away from them ever?And after being saved , did they all enter the promised land?
Salvation is forever because they were once and for all saved from Egypt(the world) and the Pharaoh(the devil) and they did not return even if some wanted to, but after that we have to obey our Lord so that we enter His Kingdom, otherwise He will say to us '' I don't know you ''!

Also, when they first arrived at the Promised Land, they didn't have enough faith in God to enter:

Numbers 13:30
And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. 31But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. 32And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. 33And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Numbers 14 1And all the congregation lifted their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night. 2And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would God we had died in this wilderness! 3And wherefore hath the LORD brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? Were it not better for us to return into Egypt? 4And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.

And the Lord's anger was kindled:

11And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? And how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? 12I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

But the great and wonderful Moses, withstood the Lord's anger in the breach.

13And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them;)

14And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night. 15Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying, 16Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness. 17And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, 18The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. 19Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

And the most wonderful and merciful Lord said:

20And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

In response to your message, what you have said agrees in some points with Catholic doctrine.

What you call being saved from Egypt, we would call "initial justification". Wherein we are called to Baptism.

Crossing the Red Sea is the image of Baptism, which is Justification and salvation from sin.

Wandering in the desert for forty years is the image of our journey of faith in which we stumble, repent and are forgiven. Or we stumble and do not repent and are cut off or fall away.

For those who continue to progress in the life of faith, that is called "further justification".

Entering in the promised land is the image of true salvation in heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[revdrgade]

In answer to "from what are we saved" it is death and corruption.
This is what Adam and Eve won when they ate of the forbidden fruit. They KNEW that if they ate of it they would die. They ate, they died. The image of God with which they were created was corrupted. Seth was not born in the image of God but in the image of Adam:

Ge 5:3

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth .
NIV

Illustrations from the OT can be helpful in explaining doctrine. But there is no such doctrine as distinguishing salvation from the Kingdom of God.

Salvation in through faith/trust in God as savior and lord. The Kingdom of God is living submitted to that Lord because we trust/have faith in Him.

The Greek word used for "king" and "kingdom" is the same: Basilea just as in English is for "king" and "kingdom".

The Jews hardly walked with God in Egypt when the plagues made things worse at first. They had no faith that God would save them when they were pursued. They complained and distrusted at every discomfort. They doubted God had enough power to allow them to enter the promised land(kingdom?) after what should have been an eleven day journey. The whole forty years was added BECAUSE they wouldn't walk with God. They died in the wilderness because they were never even saved from unbelief.

Whether many of them were saved from the death and corruption from Adam and Eve or went to heaven, only God knows. And He only says later that "most" died in the wilderness and never entered His spiritual rest.

Heb 3:7-4:2

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your heartsas you did in the rebellion,during the time of testing in the desert, 9 where your fathers tested and tried meand for forty years saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation,and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,and they have not known my ways.' 11 So I declared on oath in my anger,'They shall never enter my rest.'"
12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15 As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,do not harden your heartsas you did in the rebellion."
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Hebrews 4

4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.
NIV

Entering His eternal kingdom does have a beginning, namely; when we are brought to faith, or what many like to call "being saved". (Theologians call it being "justified/made the righteousness of God by the blood of Christ).
This then in the beginning of a journey of walking in that kingdom, walking in good works for which God created us.
They are "both" by faith in the grace (favor and power) of God.

They just look like two separate things because salvation has been made by some humans to mean only an experience, a confession, which can be made over and over again and yet has little to nothing to do with being changed by the Spirit of God as well as being removed from the kingdom of death and corruption.

The following show that we are saved from DEATH.

Jn 5:24

24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
NIV

Jn 8:51
51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death ."
NIV

Ro 5:12-13

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world.
NIV

Ro 5:20-21

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death , so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NIV

Ro 6:3-7
3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death ? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 If we have been united with him like this in his death , we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
NIV

1 Jn 3:13-15
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death . 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
NIV

et ali

[De Maria]

In answer to "from what are we saved" it is death and corruption.
This is what Adam and Eve won when they ate of the forbidden fruit. They KNEW that if they ate of it they would die. They ate, they died. The image of God with which they were created was corrupted. Seth was not born in the image of God but in the image of Adam:

Ge 5:3

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth .
NIV

Illustrations from the OT can be helpful in explaining doctrine. But there is no such doctrine as distinguishing salvation from the Kingdom of God.

Salvation in through faith/trust in God as savior and lord. The Kingdom of God is living submitted to that Lord because we trust/have faith in Him.

The Greek word used for "king" and "kingdom" is the same: Basilea just as in English is for "king" and "kingdom".

The Jews hardly walked with God in Egypt when the plagues made things worse at first. They had no faith that God would save them when they were pursued. They complained and distrusted at every discomfort. They doubted God had enough power to allow them to enter the promised land(kingdom?) after what should have been an eleven day journey. The whole forty years was added BECAUSE they wouldn't walk with God. They died in the wilderness because they were never even saved from unbelief.

Whether many of them were saved from the death and corruption from Adam and Eve or went to heaven, only God knows. And He only says later that "most" died in the wilderness and never entered His spiritual rest.

Heb 3:7-4:2

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your heartsas you did in the rebellion,during the time of testing in the desert, 9 where your fathers tested and tried meand for forty years saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation,and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,and they have not known my ways.' 11 So I declared on oath in my anger,'They shall never enter my rest.'"
12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15 As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,do not harden your heartsas you did in the rebellion."
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Hebrews 4

4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.
NIV

Entering His eternal kingdom does have a beginning, namely; when we are brought to faith, or what many like to call "being saved". (Theologians call it being "justified/made the righteousness of God by the blood of Christ).
This then in the beginning of a journey of walking in that kingdom, walking in good works for which God created us.
They are "both" by faith in the grace (favor and power) of God.

They just look like two separate things because salvation has been made by some humans to mean only an experience, a confession, which can be made over and over again and yet has little to nothing to do with being changed by the Spirit of God as well as being removed from the kingdom of death and corruption.

The following show that we are saved from DEATH.

Jn 5:24

24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
NIV

Jn 8:51
51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death ."
NIV

Ro 5:12-13

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world.
NIV

Ro 5:20-21

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death , so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NIV

Ro 6:3-7
3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death ? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 If we have been united with him like this in his death , we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
NIV

1 Jn 3:13-15
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death . 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
NIV

et ali

Well, I have to spread some reputation around before I can compliment that one. But that doesn't stop me from saying, "Well done!"

[wildandblue]

Israel's example shows that man does not have the ability to save himself, even through good works or wanting to repent. Israel's sacrifices to God (animals and grain) needed to be offered over and over. Only through faith in Christ are we saved from sin.

[Fr_Chuck]

And if I am not mistaken, Moses was not allowed to enter the promise land either?

[De Maria]

And if I am not mistaken, Moses was not allowed to enter the promise land either ??

That's true. But the Promised Land is only a metaphor for heaven. Because although Moses didn't enter the Promised Land, he did go to heaven BODY and SOUL.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

At least, according to my understanding of this verse.

Sincerely,

De Maria