[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

Really? Can't we just change the channel?

Oh OK...

The real issue here is that for many Christians, if they admit that they cannot technically "know" that God exists, they feel that they will influence the validity of their belief and therefore, be viewed as "less" of a Christian.

This is your subjective opinion and belief unless you have some factual data to prove this is what Christians really believe. I will tell you right now, what you said does not apply to me. I just simply know God exists, I don't know why that is so difficult for people to accept. :confused:

If the Bible instructed us to worship God and by doing so, we would all burn in Hell for all Eternity... It would go on to explain that this would be the ultimate way to show ones true love for God... a tragic end but for those that still worshiped Him, He would know they worshiped Him for the right reasons... if this were the case, how many Christians would have EVER become Christians?

No me that's for sure, thank God that is not the case. :D

Would they still claim to KNOW that He exist if these were His conditions?

Of course I would still say know God exists, if indeed that kind of a god existed. "His conditions" have anything to do with whether He exists.

[Alty]

I did not say God was a fact

Then what did you mean by this statement?

I know without a doubt that God exists whether you BELIEVE I do or not. That's just a fact, I know God exists.

Maybe I am missing the point, or it's just because I am taking what you write literally. Should I read between the lines? Would that get us on the same page?

[DrJ]

This is your subjective opinion and belief unless you have some factual data to prove this is what Christians really believe. I will tell you right now, what you said does not apply to me. I just simply know God exists, i dont know why that is so difficult for people to accept. :confused:

Actually, I say it is so therefore it is so. It is now the truth until you can prove otherwise. Unfortunately for those this may apply to, there is no way to prove to me what it REALLY inside your heart/mind so what I said will remain truth for the rest of eternity :D

Not me thats for sure, thank God that is not the case. :D

My point exactly. So by admitting this, you are admitting that you only worship God so that you won't go to Hell...

Ofcourse i would still say know God exists, if indeed that kind of a god existed. "His conditions" have anything to do with whether or not He exists.

Well you already said you wouldn't be a Christian if that were the case... so do you really think that you would say that you KNOW God exists if you weren't a Christian?

[Credendovidis]

Post #4 : The problem here is the mis-use of the meaning of the verb "to know".

So let's start defining what is meant / not meant with "TO KNOW" in this respect.
Sassy : you and Fred mean with "to know" that it is a reality, not that it is just your personal perception. In this specific case the unsupported claim that "God" exists. But the existence of "God" has NEVER been a reality, because it is based on BELIEF. So the use of the verb "to know" here is incorrect.

Yes the existence of God has never been a reality to YOU. However it has been a reality to me and many other Christians.

Sassy : I stated that the problem here is not in what you believe, or why you believe, or how you believe.
The problem is related to what you MEAN here with "to know" (No need for a dictionary quote : just YOUR meaning please).

Unfortunately you - as usual - try to skip the real issue here. You say it is a reality that "God" exists.

So let me ask you specifically to qualify the following : where you state in your topic starter :

If I say I know God exists...

---> What does that mean for each of the following 5 statements :

1 - "You believe that "You believe that " exists".
2 - "Your personal perception is that " exists" exists".
3 - "God's existence is only a personal reality to you"Your personal perception is that "The entity " exists" (with qualities as per the Biblical claim) exists".
4 - "God's existence (and powers) is a fact".

Please reply with a clear response, and explain WHY that is so for each of the 5 options.

:rolleyes:

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[wildandblue]

I was really beginning to wonder where Credendovis was, since this post is all about him. Of course there's the awful possibility we have to consider, that he might have something better to do than listen to us...

[Alty]

There are better things than AMHD? Egad! ;)

Sassy, I would also like to hear your response to Cred's question, maybe that will clear up a few misunderstandings. :)

[Credendovidis]

I was really beginning to wonder where Credendovis was, since this post is all about him. Of course there's the awful possibility we have to consider, that he might have something better to do than listen to us.....

What a silly person you must be to post so much foolishness...

To start : may be you should start listening to me and others first...
And yes, I had something better to do than listen to you and your theistic peers...

But how terrible that you had to wait 1 or 2 days for my reaction after the one in post #4.
How did you survive all that long waiting?
Of course I was not aware that prior to a visit to my children and grandchildren in England I had to notify you personally. My absence on-line here seems to have caused so much of a traumatic experience to you that you have my full sympathy, and I quickly add a "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" to make it up to you...

Please take careful note of the following expected days off-line here :

During the last week of November 2008 I will be on a short business trip to the Far East = off-line.
Early December 2008 I will be visiting again my children and grandchildren in England = off-line.
Over Christmas 2008 I will be visiting my daughter in Africa = off-line.
February-March 2009 I will be on a ski holiday in Switzerland = off-line.
Spring 2009 I will most probably sailing again in my yacht on the Atlantic Ocean and - possibly - in the Mediterranean Sea. But on-board I - fortunately for you - have a satellite link, so that I can remain on-line.
For summer 2009 no firm plans are presently available - my sincere apologies for that inconveniance are hereby offered. Most probably it will be a visit to Australia or Thailand.

I just give you all that information already so that you can prepare yourself for all these long absences. I hate to think that you - in your confusion caused by these absences - will step off a high building, jump in front of a train, or electrocute yourself at the Christmas tree, just because all these unannounced and long absences drive you into complete insanity. Subject of course that you have not arrived at that result already, which - from your post here - is another rather viable possibility...

:D:rolleyes::D:rolleyes::D

.

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[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

Actually, I say it is so therefore it is so. It is now the truth until you can prove otherwise. Unfortunately for those this may apply to, there is no way to prove to me what it REALLY inside your heart/mind so what I said will remain truth for the rest of eternity

Not unless you can prove it to be true. Can you prove I don't know God?

My point exactly. So by admitting this, you are admitting that you only worship God so that you won't go to Hell...

I worship God because He created me, and HE is my Father and I love him.
Yes! Duh.. lol I don't want to go to Hell, but that is just a benefit that is extended to me for Loving and accepting my Creator.

Well you already said you wouldn't be a Christian if that were the case... so do you really think that you would say that you KNOW God exists if you weren't a Christian?

Yes of course! Why not?. lol Knowing God has nothing to do with what religious affilitiation one identifies with. The two are mutually exlusive. I knew God before I professed to be "Christian". I do not consider myself religious at all. I just have a personal relationship with God. I only call myself a "Christian" because that is the term used by the world to describe followers of Christ. And I am follower of Christ.
So the bottom line is I know God, and that has absolutely nothing to do with my "religious affiliation". Being a Christian is not a prerequisite to knowing God, believe me. I was far from being a Christian when I found God. :o

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

Sassy : I stated that the problem here is not in what you believe, or why you believe, or how you believe.
The problem is related to what you MEAN here with "to know" (No need for a dictionary quote : just YOUR meaning please).

Unfortunately you - as usual - try to skip the real issue here. You say it is a reality that "God" exists.

Cred. I know God exists. You don't know whether he exists or not. That all you need to know.

So let me ask you specifically to qualify the following : where you state in your topic starter :
---> What does that mean for each of the following 5 statements :

1 - "You believe that "God" exists".

I don't believe God exists, I know God exists.

2 - "Your personal perception is that "God" exists".

I have knowledge of God's Existence. You don't..

3 - "God's existence is only a personal reality to you".

God's existence is a reality to me and many billions of other people who share the same knowledge of Him.

4 - "The entity "God" (with qualities as per the Biblical claim) exists".

I know God exists.

5 - "God's existence (and powers) is a fact".

I know God exists, that is the Fact.


Please reply with a clear response, and explain WHY that is so for each of the 5 options.

Hope that helps! ;)

[Boristheblade]

Now call me cynical, but I think it is naïve for believers and non believers of God to think they can ever reach an agreement. Especially when both are so adamant. Nobody has 100% solid proof in God-if they did EVERBODY would believe. That's the key word-believe. You can believe and have faith but KNOWING something requires KNOWLEDGE and that requires FACT. "God exists" is not a fact. It is an opinion and will continue to be until his existence is proved/disproved.

This is coming from a christian.

[DrJ]

Not unless you can prove it to be true. Can you prove i dont know God?

No, by your standards, I don't have to prove it to be true.. it is up to YOU to prove it to be FALSE... otherwise, it is true. This is completely based on your standards... not mine.

If God exists because others can't prove that he doesn't, then what I said is true unless you can prove that it isn't. See how that works?

I worship God because He created me, and HE is my Father and i love him.
Yes! Duh..lol i dont wanna go to Hell, but that is just a benifit that is extended to me for Loving and accepting my Creator.

BUT... if it were a choice between NOT worshiping God and NOT going to Hell... OR... WORSHIPING God and HAVING to go to Hell... you said you would choose to NOT go to Hell... meaning that you would no longer worship God. That's just what you said..

I find discussion with you somewhat tiresome since you don't seem to pay attention or actually read what others are writing.

Yes ofcourse! why not??..lol Knowing God has nothing to do with what religious affilitiation one identifies with. The two are mutually exlusive. I knew God before i professed to be "Christian". I do not consider myself religious at all. I just have a personal relationship with God. I only call myself a "Christian" because that is the term used by the world to describe followers of Christ. And i am follower of Christ.
So the bottom line is i know God, and that has absolutely nothing to do with my "religious affiliation". Being a Christian is not a prerequisite to knowing God, believe me. I was far from being a Christian when i found God. :o

Yes, of course this would all make sense if you hadn't already said otherwise.. of course, you did so without seeming to know it... which just goes back to what I said above about you not paying attention.


It reminds me of a scene from the movie Zoolander. Ben Stillers character, Zoolander, asks an ex-hand model "But why male models" in an attempt to find out why the bad guys choose male models to brainwash. The ex-hand model replies with an explanation about how male models aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. After the explanation, Zoolander nods his head in agreement and says "Oh.... ....but why male models?"

The ex-hand model says, "Are you serious? You just asked me that."

:D

[DrJ]

Now call me cynical, but I think it is naive for believers and non believers of God to think they can ever reach an agreement. Especially when both are so adamant. Nobody has 100% solid proof in God-if they did EVERBODY would believe. That's the key word-believe. You can believe and have faith but KNOWING something requires KNOWLEDGE and that requires FACT. "God exists" is not a fact. It is an opinion and will continue to be until his existence is proved/disproved.

This is coming from a christian.

And a competent Christian!

**applauds**

[Boristheblade]

A 17 year old one too lol, thank you :)

[Credendovidis]

Cred. I know God exists.....

Thanks Sassy : with that reply you showed us all five times that all you do is BELIEVE that "God" exists !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[Alty]

Sassy, you believe that you know, you don't know and your reasoning isn't good enough to convince anyone of your knowledge of God.

If you know then you can prove, otherwise it's just belief.

Cred, you're rubbing off on me. ;)

[Credendovidis]

Cred, you're rubbing off on me.

That may be. Fortunately I note that your signature states "Warning, major flirt, approach with caution".

... hhmmmm... Some thoughts are better not posted...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

.

[Alty]

It's just a heads up, a warning, sadly very true as well. ;)

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

No, by your standards, I don't have to prove it to be true.. it is up to YOU to prove it to be FALSE... otherwise, it is true. This is completely based on your standards... not mine.

If God exists because others can't prove that he doesn't, then what I said is true unless you can prove that it isn't. See how that works?

*sigh* Again I did not say "God exists" I said "i know God exists" there is a huge difference between those two statements but it seems you are getting too hung up on the former, which is far from what I am say.

BUT... if it were a choice between NOT worshiping God and NOT going to Hell... OR... WORSHIPING God and HAVING to go to Hell... you said you would choose to NOT go to Hell... meaning that you would no longer worship God. That's just what you said..

Going to Hell or Not going to hell, worshiping or Not worshiping God, none of this has any relevance to my knowledge of God so I am not sure what you are trying to get here. What has that got to do with my knowledge of God? Help me understand.

I find discussion with you somewhat tiresome since you don't seem to pay attention or actually read what others are writing.

Just because I do not blindly agree with people's subjective opinions does not mean I am not reading what they said. I just don't agree..

Yes, of course this would all make sense if you hadn't already said otherwise.. of course, you did so without seeming to know it... which just goes back to what I said above about you not paying attention.

Again, help me understand, what has being a Christian, going or not going to Hell, worshiping or not worshiping God, have to do with Knowing God?
That is like saying to someone "you only say you "know" Goerge Bush because you are a republican".. . which make no sense. Because knowing Goerge Bush is not dependent what so ever on one's political affiliation. In the same way knowing God is not dependent in anyway on one's relgious affiliation.

It reminds me of a scene from the movie Zoolander. Ben Stillers character, Zoolander, asks an ex-hand model "But why male models" in an attempt to find out why the bad guys choose male models to brainwash. The ex-hand model replies with an explanation about how male models aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. After the explanation, Zoolander nods his head in agreement and says "Oh.... ....but why male models?"

The ex-hand model says, "Are you serious? You just asked me that."

:D

[Alty]

*sigh* Again I did not say "God exists" I said "i know God exists" there is a huge difference between those two statements but it seems you are getting too hung up on the former, which is far from what I am say.

Sassy, when you say that you know God exists then you are indeed saying that God exists. There is no difference between those two statements.

If there is a difference then please explain, obviously the rest of us are having a problem understanding what it is you are trying to convey.

[sassyT]

Thanks Sassy : with that reply you showed us all five times that all you do is BELIEVE that "God" exists !

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Okay, that is just your BELIEF on the matter. And I respect that. ;)