[De Maria]

How does he demand he gave you free will and you exercise that free will by not worshiping him.

Good answer!

[De Maria]

You didn't say it. You implied it, which is why I said 'you are implying...'

Oh, I see.

But the evidence you provided does not show me implying it but you.

Look at it again.

I asked about God's thirst for blood. You responded by saying, Simple. They were disobedient. They had made up their minds to do evil.

True. But if you notice, I said nothing about innocent children.

I then asked about God wiping out innocents and babies.

Lets look at the exact quote:

Ok, but they ALL weren't disobedient. Certainly 3 month old babies weren't disobedient. And what do you mean by 'to protect his people'?

I assumed that you meant that three month old babies were condemned to hell. That is why I responded as you acknowledged below:

You acknowledged no problem with this whatsoever, because they go straight to heaven.

Now lets get back to how you HYPER interpreted my statement:

You are implying that god created plagues to wipe out the innocent?

I don't see any such implication in my statement. I acknowledge that God sent floods and plagues to destroy the guilty. The innocent children who died therein were collateral damage. But they were not punished with the wicked.

I think the problem or misunderstanding is that you are under the false impression that we are made for this life. But we believe we are made for God to live with Him in the next. It is actually a kindness to those children that God took them to Himself before they were corrupted by their parents.

To sum up, I did not imply that God created plagues to wipe out the innocent. That is your misrepresentation of what I said.

So which is it? What was the purpose of these plagues and floods that God wrought? Did he mean to wipe out evil doers, or innocents?

God sent those plagues to destroy evil doers and protect the innocent.

Or were all these innocents merely the 'collateral damage' of God's wrath? You'd think an omnipotent God would have more accuracy than that.

He does, as demonstated by His taking only the first born in the first plague.

Again, the misunderstanding or problem if I may characterize it that way, is that you believe that death is always a punishment. But it isn't. This life is not the end all of our being.

No offense, but you appear to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. This overtly contradicts what you just got done saying about my logic and about 3 month old babies. Does it not?

No. My response is addressed to this comment of yours, "Why not just destroy all of humanity..."

And let me clarify, death is not necessarily destruction. Death and condemnation to hell is destruction. Death and glorification in heaven is victory.

Now I've never heard this before. God *needs* us? Clearly, he doesn't need all of us. Just how many does he need? Would a few million do? Or just a couple of very pious people? I know this sounds facetious, but I really don't understand. If he needs us, what did god do for the billions of years before he created man?

Clearly you misread what I said. Look at it again, I said God doesn't need us. Since this part of your statement was based on a misreading of my words, I'll ignore it.

My discourse is still very amiable.

Good.

I just don't want to put you through having to answer transubstantiation. First, the process in which a cracker becomes the body of Jesus, and then the whole cannibalism thing. That just sounds like a very messy topic that would utterly derail this thread.

Perhaps, but since you keep talking about something you said you don't want to talk about and in the process you malign it, I feel pressed to say a few words.

As I said before, I was an atheist. And like you, when I discovered that God existed, I did my best to be the most devout believer that I could be.

As I searched and compared doctrines, I came slowly to be convinced by Catholic Truth. The last hurdle for me was precisely the Eucharist.

So, I said to myself, "hey, you are convinced that the Church is right about EVERYTHING else. Why do you think they are wrong about this?"

So I took a step in faith. Many years later, I learned that St. Augustine was right. He said, "Believe that you may understand."

You are still missing my entire point. There is NOTHING, N-O-T-H-I-N-G, that my children could do that would cause me to stand by while they suffered eternally. Nothing.

And you are missing mine. If a person chooses to be unhappy, there is nothing, N-O-T-H-I-N-G, you can do about it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not really. I seem to have more compassion. Unless there's still something I'm not understanding.

I believe there is. See my last statement.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

How does he demand he gave you free will and you exercise that free will by not worshiping him.

Yeah... but if you use that free will incorrectly, there is "eternal fire and burning brimstone" awaiting you.

But god loves you...

:D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D

·

[N0help4u]

Yep you make the free will choice to pick the wrong door.

[Allheart]

Yeah ... but if you use that free will incorrectly, there is "eternal fire and burning brimstone" awaiting you.

But god loves you ....

:D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D

·

God does love us Creed, and yes, it we deny him, turn our back on Him, betray Him,
Then we have chosen not to accept His love or be his children.

Correct you are.

[Credendovidis]

Yep you make the free will choice to pick the wrong door.

That is what you BELIEVE !

:D :D :D :D :D

·

[Credendovidis]

God does love us Creed, and yes, it we deny him, turn our back on Him, betray Him, then we have chosen not to accept His love or be his children. Correct you are.

The difference is that you believe these religious claims, and I don't...

:D

·

[N0help4u]

Yes that is Allheart and my 'religious beliefs' ON the religious discussion board where we discuss our religious beliefs :D:rolleyes:

[lobrobster]

God does love us Creed, and yes, it we deny him, turn our back on Him, betray Him,
then we have chosen not to accept His love or be his children.

Correct you are.

I think almost anyone can understand what you're saying Allheart and your intentions are undoubtedly good. But the problem is twofold:

1. Non-Christians are not denying or turning their back on Him. They simply don't know He exists. Either that, or they don't know that the God you believe in is the right God to worship.

2. Allowing people to roast, choke, suffer, and cry in agony for all of eternity is not something most would attribute to a compassionate/loving person or being.

From your posts, I have no doubt you are a kind and wonderful person. It's just that through an incredible (and no doubt unconscious) feat of mental gymnastics, you have come to accept such barbaric fates for your fellow humans with a smile on your face. If only you could look at it objectively from outside your faith.

[N0help4u]

Our faith is that God showed us his love and how to love with his love.
We can do not do the mental gymnastics of why this and why that because we see God working in our life and in our heart and we can not answer for things like murderers or people who claim they persecute others in God's name or anything like that. We know what is real to us in our belief

[Allheart]

Hi Lob-

Please know, that I promise you, there is not a smile on my face or in my heart for those who do not believe. I promise you, honest to anything, actual tears. And it is rare that I think of heaven or hell, even for myself. Which, is probably wrong. I just think moment to moment, from day to day. It's only when I come on here that I think of eternity.

I worry about displeasing God every day. Not because of heaven or hell, it's because God is so good, He gave me and all of us so much, and to do wrong by Him, or by others, which is doing wrong by Him, truly troubles me.

Please I honest to my heart, I don't want anyone to perish. I would love for everyone to have God in their life, today, not because of eternity, although of course that is a reason, but not necessarily on my mind, it's just to help with their day to day living, like it helps me.

Actually, I don't really think about hell that often. Again, most Christians would say that is wrong of me. It is hard to even comprehend. I can only hope for purgatory, for I feel, that I will always have sin on my soul, even on my last day, even though I have God's love in my heart.

Lob, I am so sorry that I gave that impression. I try and hold back, be gentle with those who do not believe, my words come from my heart, and I wish with all my heart that they would believe, but don't want to be forceful as to offend or turn them away.

I can't imagine anyone burning in hell. My elders in the family, say that some are having their hell on this earth. Maybe, I don't believe in hell, or just to scared to, so that's why it's not on the forefront of my mind.

Bless you Lob, and I am so very sorry for ever given the indication that I would want my fellow person to suffer in anyway. With all my heart I don't.

Allheart.

[lobrobster]

Hi Lob-

Allheart,

I did not mean to imply that you personally smile at the thought of people burning in hell. Heavens no! You are much too kind and loving for that. But you do praise this god with a smile. The very same god who either allows people to burn for all eternity, or is powerless to do anything about it.

If you say your god is powerless to stop such horrors, then I have much less of a problem with it (although, many more questions). But then, we cannot attribute omnipotence to such a god. Do you see my point?

[Allheart]

Allheart,

I did not mean to imply that you personally smile at the thought of people burning in hell. Heavens no! You are much too kind and loving for that. But you do praise this god with a smile. The very same god who either allows people to burn for all eternity, or is powerless to do anything about it.

If you say your god is powerless to stop such horrors, then I have much less of a problem with it (although, many more questions). But then, we cannot attribute omnipotence to such a god. Do you see my point?

To be very honest, I had to look up "omnipotence" :o :)

I am so relieved that you know in my heart, I don't want anyone to hurt or be harmed regardless of their beliefs. I do though, indeed smile in my heart about God's love.

I do indeed see your point. How could a loving God, will His children to perish. But lob, He doesn't. He wants all of us to be in His loving arms. But if there are those that say, uh excuse me, Big guy, you don't exsist, He can not embrace that. Will these persons burn, and perish, well, they won't be in God's loving arms.

It's are free will and choice, that decides, whether to be in God's loving arms or not. How can He embrace those that reject Him? If you had a friend, who evertime you called them, they hung up, you wouldn't be calling them much longer.

God doesn't want us to hurt or be harmed. I believe it hurts Him to His heart, when we stray, just like an earthly parent, whose heart hurts when their child strays away from what they were taught.

Heaven is a place of paradise. Where there is no more pain, no more hurt, no more
Sadness, and perhaps if we deny God, or state He does not exsist, we will then remain in a place, where there is pain, hurt and sadness.

I believe there are people currently in jail, who have done horrific things, but are mentally ill, that God will embrace and take them in His loving arms. He truly is a loving God and a forgiving God.

[lobrobster]

Thank you Allheart for your explanation. I don't want to go further with this, because to be honest... You are too nice to argue with! :) I just want to take exception with 1 thing...

You keep using the word 'reject'. I want you to know that I do not reject God. Neither do most atheists I know. We simply have no compelling reason to think He is there.

If you call me and I hang up on you, I have rejected you. But if I don't hear the phone ring... Please don't hold that against me! I honestly didn't know you were calling, otherwise I surely would have picked up and talked with you. Does that make sense?

Now I'm sure there are some atheists who do reject God. That is, even if they knew He existed, they would have something against God. And to be honest, I'm probably a little resentful myself, but it has to do with my religious upbringing and not God. I was raised Catholic and was very prayerful. So much so, that to this day I sometimes find myself making the sign of the cross when I get into bed at night out of habit. But again, I have nothing against God. I am resentful at having spent so much of my life believing in something I am now quite sure isn't there. (see my response to your post "Once believed in God - but you no longer do?").

So I hope that clears things up a little for you. I hate it when non-believers get labeled for hating or rejecting God. Nothing could be further from the truth in my case. It wouldn't take much for me to believe again. Just some evidence, that's all. In the meantime, I won't harp on you to answer my questions about the incompatibility of hell, plagues, floods, and a loving God (or that people in jail for hideous crimes can be saved before someone who never hurt anyone, but just didn't believe). I'll save it for people like De Maria who I get a kick out of watching squirm! -lol.

[Allheart]

Lob,

You are truly such a very sweet soul. I too, was raised and am Catholic... oh the guilt for just being :).

But for me, the beauty of the music and homilys keep me close.

Forgive me for saying rejecting, as you are right, there may be some who have never been introduced.

Lob, God has so lovingly carried me through life, to this very day. Trust me the "nuns" (sisters) weren't very fond of me, only because I was not an acadmeic star, and my parents were divorced, but I realized, they were only human.

If I could only open my heart all the way to you, for you to once again, grab God's hand, but Lob, I would never force you to, but trust me, His hand is always there.

Being a good soul, such as you are, is completely what God wishes for us to be, so it really doesn't matter what we label ourselves as... as long as we have that love in our heart... which you indeed do.

Thanks for understanding me :)

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

Yes, men carried out the act. But almost everyone here agrees about the importance of a blood sacrifice. Sassy says: Without the Blood of Jesus that he shed for our sin, we can not approach God because of our sin. Surely, there had to have been a better way. And not to derail our discussion, but I've always wondered what would have happened if Pontius Pilate had been able to 'wash his hands' of Jesus and let him go? Would humanity be doomed now? I don't think you can have it both ways De Maria. You can't say the blood of Jesus' crucifixion was required AND that man did it in the same breath. Either man did it and Jesus didn't have to die, or Jesus had little to do with our being saved. It can't be both.

No there is no other way... No Blood-No Remission!

The Bible says in hebrews 9:22 without shedding of blood there's no remission of sin

So basically the blood of an innocent animal is the antidote to sin.

That just the way it is... I don't know why and I don't always agree with the way He handles things.. but who am I? After all, He is GOD.

[savedsinner7]

Allheart,

I did not mean to imply that you personally smile at the thought of people burning in hell. Heavens no! You are much too kind and loving for that. But you do praise this god with a smile. The very same god who either allows people to burn for all eternity, or is powerless to do anything about it.

If you say your god is powerless to stop such horrors, then I have much less of a problem with it (although, many more questions). But then, we cannot attribute omnipotence to such a god. Do you see my point?

God is Holy. Sin is unholy. He cannot allow sin to enter His presence. This is where Jesus sacrifice comes in. He bridges the gap created by sin to allow us into the Presence of God. If we live in sin, and do not accept what Jesus did on the cross for us, then we cannot enter into God's presence. This is why people go to hell. It is not God's choice for us, He chooses that everyone would be saved, but some people do not accept that choice.

[JoeT777]

I used to be Christian... I was rifling through some old Christian CDs of mine today, and got to thinking... I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

I feel like 'faith' is a cop-out when you can't give any real answers for why you believe the things you do... and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things...

Response to: What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

Margog85

From your comments I can tell you’re a logical person, so I’ll write to your intellect. You may recall in the Wizard of OZ, the wizard tells Dorothy to close her eyes, believe (have ‘faith’), and click her heals three times to return to Kansas. If Dorothy was a real person, you and I both know that when Dorothy opened her eyes she wouldn’t find herself in Kansas. Intuitively, we know that such a thing would be just plain simple dumb!

Our faith in God isn’t a type of ‘struck by lightning’ knowledge. If it were then we would all be standing around waiting for those predestined strikes of faith. There are many Protestant denominations that have this type of faith. On the other hand, Catholics hold ‘faith’ in God to be those truths revealed by God in Scripture and in the Tradition of the Church (objective faith). Faith can also be those things we hold true that are beyond our understanding, but within the natural light of reason (subjective faith). This latter type of faith requires a supernatural strengthening of natural light. "Quid est enim fides nisi credere quod non vides?" (What is faith but belief without seeing?). In either event intellectual reasoning is an element of faith.

Let’s use our understanding of gravity as an example; scientists tell us there is a thing called gravity. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never picked-up a hand full of pure gravity to examine it, to test it, or taste it. We don’t know the constituent elements that are the physical thing called gravity. But, we’ve been told that it exists. No doubt you’ve tested it. Jump from a height of much more than 8 feet and it tends to cause the breaking of bones, gnashing of teeth, etc. So, having ‘faith’ in scientist we accept that gravity behaves in a certain way depending on the mass. Thus, we say we have ‘faith’ that the earth and other planets follow certain rules of gravity revolving around the sun.

In a like manner we have faith in an absolute truth that is ‘God’; providing us with the light of reason. It is important that we have an absolute truth that we can point to (at least inasmuch as men are able to understand God’s absolute truth). Without such an authoritative absolute truth, we couldn’t have ‘faith’ in our absolute believes in God.

In as much as we’re capable, we come to know God’s truth through the scriptures and the traditions of the Church. Of course we can’t know the essence of God or quantify his nature (except for that part revealed). We can’t touch him, see him, feel him or know what he is. But, we can recognize and measure those things that are of God. From what is revealed, we can deduce some of the nature of god. Like a watch found on the street; having never seen a watch, finding it lying there on the street, we can deduce what the intended use of the watch is; we can deduce that somewhere there is a watch maker (watches don’t make themselves). We can also conclude that the watchmaker, at least at some point in time, was preoccupied with the passing of time. We can even deduce the skill of the craftsmanship; which also tells us something of the maker himself. In the same way we can have ‘faith’ in our understanding of the Maker.

Let me suggest that maybe instead of ‘faith’ being a cop-out, maybe you coped-out on faith. Could it be that you didn’t put enough of yourself into your faith? That is to say, could it be that like Dorothy, you just stood there clicking your heals, waiting for God to respond with a flash of lightning?

JoeT