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N0help4u · Jul 25, 2008, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by lobrobster

Again, I'm specifically looking for reasons why one can assume that God sanctions Christianity over Judaism (or any other religion). Since Christianity came after Jesus' death, I don't see how that's possible.

I imagine it's mainly through inferring that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the OT? But this doesn't explain why so many Jews who go by the exact same OT disagree. Surely, there is no reason to think that the few people who started Christianity were that much smarter than all the Jews?

God does not sanction Christianity over Judaism
Look at it this way you have two children
Judaism is your first child
Christianity is your second child

You love them each for their unique individuality.
The Bible never says that God forsake the Jews for the Christian
It says first the Jew (as the first born's rights) THEN the Christian was grafted in.
In fact the Christian is looked at more like an adopted child.

shatteredsoul · Jul 25, 2008, 10:53 AM

I DON'T THINK GOD NEEDS RELIGION TO EXIST.. CERTAIN PEOPLE NEED RELIGION TO PROVE GOD EXISTS.
Supporting your evidence based on bibilical "FACTS" isn't a way to communicate effectively with those that do not believe in religion.
GOD CAN EXIST WITHOUT RELIGION OR PROOF
And that is because for me I don't need either to believe.
Now can we just agree to disagree? It seems some have faith to believe and some have faith in not believing.
Attacking what someone believes doesn't make anyone's argument more credible or convicing. (on either side)
Many people who believe in God aren't Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other religion either. Organized religion is a tool that has been used throughout to control people and society. THAT IS A FACT.

N0help4u · Jul 25, 2008, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by shatteredsoul

I DON'T THINK GOD NEEDS RELIGION TO EXIST.. CERTAIN PEOPLE NEED RELIGION TO PROVE GOD EXISTS.
Supporting your evidence based on bibilical "FACTS" isn't a way to communicate effectively with those that do not believe in religion.
GOD CAN EXIST WITHOUT RELIGION OR PROOF
and that is because for me I don't need either to believe.
Now can we just agree to disagree?? It seems some have faith to believe and some have faith in not believing.
Attacking what someone believes doesn't make anyone's argument more credible or convicing. (on either side)
Many people who believe in God aren't Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other religion either. Organized religion is a tool that has been used throughout to control people and society. THAT IS A FACT.

Greenie :D AMEN!! Ain't that the truth!

Choux · Jul 25, 2008, 10:59 AM

It is possible that there is a "god" that has no relation to the monotheistic religions that came out of the tribal desert cultures... Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

It is important to understand that no matter who you are. :)

De Maria · Jul 25, 2008, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by lobrobster

I've been curious about this for quite some time. Not just about you, but all Christians...

OK.

Why would you think God placed a Catholic church here?

For the same reason that the US established a Supreme Court.

There is no mention of Christianity in the old testament.

Yes, there is. Christ means Messiah or anointed. Christianity is the fellowship of the Messiah. The Old Testament prophecied the coming of the Messiah and that the world, including non Jews would follow Him.

Psalms 2 8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the Gentiles for thy inheritance, and the utmost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jesus himself was born a Jew and died a Jew. His mother was a Jew. There is no reason to think he considered himself anything but a Jew. Or am I wrong about that?

You are correct. And being a Jew, He knew about the Messianic Prophecies which were fulfilled in Him:

Luke 20: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and so to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures, the things that were concerning him.

John 5 39 Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting; and the same are they that give testimony of me.

Christianity never would have existed if it wasn't for a disagreement over the divinity of Jesus. It just so happens that many Jews never saw his miracles or resurrection and didn't believe the few people who said they did.

Do you mean that if all the Jews had accepted Jesus' Divinity, Christianity would not have come about?

I think you are wrong. If they had all accepted Jesus' Divinity, they would have accepted the fact that He is the Christ and Christianity would have been born without bloodshed.

Am I all wrong about this?

I think so, but it is only speculation.

If so, I'd appreciate if someone explained it to me.

I hope this helped.

I never did understand how Christianity got started or why God would bless it, let alone give it to us (and I was raised Catholic myself). Thanks.

Christianity was started by God. That is why He blessed it.

Isaias 55 11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

lobrobster · Jul 25, 2008, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

God does not sanction Christianity over Judaism
Look at it this way you have two children
Judaism is your first child
Christianity is your second child

You love them each for their unique individuality.
The Bible never says that God forsake the Jews for the Christian
It says first the Jew (as the first born's rights) THEN the Christian was grafted in.
In fact the Christian is looked at more like an adopted child.

I like this, but still don't understand something...

Many Christians believe the ONLY to heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior. This means God is allowing his '1st child' to suffer in hell for eternity. I've said this before... There is nothing... NOTHING my children could ever do to me that I would allow either of them to suffer a fate like this. They could not believe in me, disown me, disgrace me. My love for them is unconditional and far too great. So why does god feel differently about most of his children?

N0help4u · Jul 25, 2008, 11:24 AM

Like shatteredsoul was saying READ #202
Churches/religions/Christians want to turn God into a formula that fits their religious traditions rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them in what God is really saying.
Churches have some very good basic doctrinal truths but they all veer off the truth with their own speculations and rituals that have nothing to do with God.

De Maria · Jul 25, 2008, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by lobrobster

I like this, but still don't understand something...

Many Christians believe the ONLY to heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior. This means God is allowing his '1st child' to suffer in hell for eternity. I've said this before... There is nothing... NOTHING my children could ever do to me that I would allow either of them to suffer like this. So why does god feel differently about some of his children?

Lets say you have two children. One of them loves you and one of them hates you.

The one who loves you wants to live near you so that you can do things together and hang out and simply enjoy each other's company. As a consequence, he is nearby and you have the opportunity to give him gifts, treat him to meals and otherwise have a good time.

The one who hates you, wants nothing to do with you and would rather be as far away from you as possible. He doesn't want your money or your gifts.

You love them both. Are you going to force the one who hates you and wants nothing to do with you to live with you?

So it is with God's children who go to hell. They have rejected all God's gifts and efforts to keep them out of hell. They have condemned themselves.

Sincerely,

De Maria

sassyT · Jul 25, 2008, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by lobrobster

I imagine it's mainly through inferring that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the OT? But this doesn't explain why so many Jews who go by the exact same OT disagree. Surely, there is no reason to think that the few people who started Christianity were that much smarter than all the Jews? I'll read through the link. Thanks again.

Don't forget the First ever Christians were Jews. The reason why Some Jews do not accept Jesus as the promised Messiah is because they do no accept the prophesies of the Messiah as the "suffering servant", they only accept the prophesies of the Messiah as the "triamphant King".
The Old Testament Has two set of Messianic Prophesy; One is Prophesy of the Messiah the suffering servant who will come and Die for Humanity's sin, the second Is prophesy of the Messiah who will come and rule and rien On Earth.
So when Jesus Said he was the messiah the Jews expected the messiah to be A King, Yet Jesus came as a humble servant born of a carpenter and was crusified like a criminal. Therefore many Jews did not Accept him because at that time they were expecting a Messiah who would defeat the Romans and save the Jews from Bondage. Jesus did not fulfil this expectation of theirs. The old testament does say The Messiah will be Killed as a sacrificial Lamb for all man kind. The Old testament also prophesies that the messiah will be rejected by many.
Hope that helps.

N0help4u · Jul 25, 2008, 11:28 AM

Yes God doesn't condemn anybody people do condemn themselves by their choices.

shatteredsoul · Jul 25, 2008, 11:36 AM

THANK U NOHELPFOR U!! I think some people want to just argue and that is not what I am doing. Thank you CHOUX for understanding my point. Instead of going back to the same old argument that doesn't make people think any differently. IF you want people to listen to you, than stop and listen yourself. My post isn't inciting any conflict or argument so therefore certain people ignore it and keep going. That's too bad because for a real debate to take place you have to understand the other perspectives, not just keep arguing your own!
Both churches and the United States Supreme Court, AS WELL AS CHRISTIANITY were started by PEOPLE.. That is true for every religion. PEOPLE who lived during the time of prophets or messiahs who wrote down what they THOUGHT And INTERPRETED as GOD's WORD and what "he" intended for us. YOu are so stuck on your own religion you can't see the bigger picture!

lobrobster · Jul 25, 2008, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by De Maria

You love them both. Are you going to force the one who hates you and wants nothing to do with you to live with you?

No, but I would still be generous with my love towards him. I especially would not allow him to spend eternity in the worst suffering and agony imaginable. Here's something you don't seem to be considering...

IF you are right... Then this earthly life is an imperceivable short amount of time. Would you let your toddler going through his 'terrible twos' dictate what he wants for himself? No matter how irritable and cranky he was, would you let his actions have eternal consequences?

Now consider that even a full 80 year life isn't even close to being proportionally equivalent to a two year old where eternity is concerned.

sassyT · Jul 25, 2008, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by lobrobster

I like this, but still don't understand something...

Many Christians believe the ONLY to heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior. This means God is allowing his '1st child' to suffer in hell for eternity. I've said this before... There is nothing... NOTHING my children could ever do to me that I would allow either of them to suffer a fate like this. They could not believe in me, disown me, disgrace me. My love for them is unconditional and far too great. So why does god feel differently about most of his children?

Lobro its as simple as this. If you look at Jewish history you will find that on "Passover" the Jews had to offer the blood of a sacrificial lamb for remission of sin. The Bible says the wages sin is death.God is holy and can not look upon sin and only the blood of an innocent lamb could remove this sin.
So God sent Christ as the sacrificial lamb for all man kind so that who ever accepts Him as savior, God gives him/her the power to become a child of God. Without the Blood of Jesus that he shed for our sin, we can not approach God because of our sin. God can not pretend we did not sin, that is why God sent his only Begotten Son Jesus to die in OUR place. So all we have to do is accept this gift of salvation He so freely gave. If we reject this Gift then we are destined to iternity of separation from God because of our sin.

N0help4u · Jul 25, 2008, 11:47 AM

Yeah the OT is a foreshadow of Jesus in a sense.

sassyT · Jul 25, 2008, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Yes God doesn't condemn anybody people do condemn themselves by their choices.

Precisely

shatteredsoul · Jul 25, 2008, 11:52 AM

One of many contradictions of Christianity is the belief of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and yet having to be IN FEAR that God is going to PUNISH US for our SINS.. Why would GOD give us free will to make mistakes and sin, if we were going to be punished for it..? I think that is purely a religious tool created by man and not a rule GOD made up.

We are here to live and let live, to learn and grow spiritually, and to love and be loved. TRUE growth occurs through failure, defeat and challenges of the ego and the spirit. Without sin and mistakes, how do we learn> and how do we get punished if that is the only way to learn.. through experience..? It would seem almost impossible.

Maybe our soul goes on to learn again and again until we understand the simplicity of this existence. WE make these rules that we must live by, but yet not one person on this earth can live up to them, and they aren't supposed to. THe most reformed, or born again CHRISTIAN with the firmest and most adament beliefs are usually people who have made such big mistakes, or struggled with addiction or their past and turn to religion to feel forgiven and saved. WELL without those mistakes, they would have never discovered "God".. so realistically WE are supposed to "sin", make mistakes and grow to become better people. WE don't have to be religious to have faith, believe in God or to be good people.

N0help4u · Jul 25, 2008, 12:00 PM

I heard fear God explained as meaning humbling yourself to God in awesome reverence to him. It is not meant to be scared sh!Tless.

sassyT · Jul 25, 2008, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by shatteredsoul

One of many contradictions of Christianity is the belief of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and yet having to be IN FEAR that God is going to PUNISH US for our SINS.. Why would GOD give us free will to make mistakes and sin, if we were going to be punished for it..?? I think that is purely a religous tool created by man and not a rule GOD made up.

.

The wages of sin is death and we all sin. That is why Christ died in our place so that we would be blameless before God.
God's love is unconditional however spending eternity with him is Conditional. Our sin separates us from Him, but accepting what Christ did for us, reconciles us to God.

firmbeliever · Jul 25, 2008, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by lobrobster

I've been curious about this for quite some time. Not just about you, but all Christians...

Why would you think God placed a Catholic church here? There is no mention of Christianity in the old testament. Jesus himself was born a Jew and died a Jew. His mother was a Jew. There is no reason to think he considered himself anything but a Jew. Or am I wrong about that? Christianity never would have existed if it wasn't for a disagreement over the divinity of Jesus. It just so happens that many Jews never saw his miracles or resurrection and didn't believe the few people who said they did.

Am I all wrong about this? If so, I'd appreciate if someone explained it to me. I never did understand how Christianity got started or why God would bless it, let alone give it to us (and I was raised Catholic myself). Thanks.

Lob,
Not to start a debate with anyone.. just expressing my personal views here.

I believe it has been the same Almighty and the same beliefs that the Almighty has sent down since the beginning of mankind.

Every now and then a reminder is sent I believe as Prophets/Messengers and the people who had accepted previous Prophets/Messengers deny the new one,which may or may not become a new religion.
And then there are those who accept the new Messenger/Prophet and then that becomes a new religion.
Then there are those that believe in neither the old Messenger or the new one,which is a group with different beliefs.
This I believe is how different religions came to be,but my view is that it has been the same Almighty,sending the same message of Monotheism.

shatteredsoul · Jul 25, 2008, 12:17 PM

I understand the laws of CHRISTIANITY THANK YOU.. I am telling you that they are contradictory of a God who loves unconditionally. I know what Jesus died for and I don't need a bible lesson from you. Believe it or not I grew up up with religion. Unfortunately, YOU cannot veer from the words of the bible and speak your truth from YOUR OWN HEART and YOUR OWN WORDS..
THE WAGE OF SIN IS DEATH? Even SAINTS DIE.. so whether you sin or not.. death is inevitable and neither you nor I know where the soul goes, YOU only know what YOU BELIEVE..
Whether you accept CHRIST OR GOD, doesn't change the unconditional love for us.. so that is a rule set up by MAN to scare us into not sinning.. .
NOR does it change whether our soul goes on...
Being aware of something or not, doesn't make it less true.
We are loved simply because we exist, it doesn't matter if we love back or believe.