[NeedKarma]

Silas,
You scare me.

[tsila1777]

Cred said: This is a discussion board, and any topic posted here is open to comment and discussion, if you like that or not !


Where did this A** in nine question come from? Right out of the blue! Of course it's a discussion board that's why I'm commenting on here.

I was discussing the posted topic with you.

But my post was too long for you to comment on... so I broke it down for you in as simple English as I could.

And if didn't like it, I wouldn't keep coming back. Duh again.

[tsila1777]

Silas,
You scare me.

Needy, as the man said, "Are you talking to me?"

If so, how do I scare you sweetie?

[NeedKarma]

I guess it's the swing between "sweetie" and yelling insults and demeaning people.

[shatteredsoul]

I see not much has changed with this post..
I think sometimes you have to realize some people are just not going to change their views because you think they are wrong.
Each perspective is correct to the one that owns it..
NEEDKARMA isn't going to believe in anything because you bring up Jesus, the bible or any other connotations that refer to religion. HE SIMPLY disagrees and doesn't believe..
LIVE AND LET LIVE...
Talking until your blue in the face and writing in anger won't make CRED see your views any differently. Faith cannot be proven and neither can God, therefore they do not believe.
THAT is not MY personal view, but I can accept those that differ from mine and understand the differences between us are simply that, DIFFERENCES..
Not that you have nothing valuable or worthy to say, just don't expect each person to view it the way you express it..

[tsila1777]

Yelling insults? Give me an example please. Cred yelled at me first anyway. What about that?

[lobrobster]

I agree with everything you say shattered soul, except that you seem to be implying that what is true for one, is not true for someone else. That may be the case in some areas, but in other areas it isn't. For example...

Either there once was a man walking around on this earth before a female ever existed, or there wasn't.

Either we share a common ancestor with an ape, or we don't.

Either there is an all-powerful Christian god who cares about us, can simultaneously hear billions of prayers, and sent himself to earth in order to be hideously tortured, or there isn't.

These are not matters of opinion. They either happened or they didn't. I see nothing wrong with trying to educate people in what science has to say about the veracity of such claims. I also see nothing wrong with a religious person trying to convince me otherwise. I do try and keep an open mind. But other than this, you are spot on and insults should always be avoided. But it is hard sometimes for both sides not to seem like they are talking down to each other. In the end, I see nothing wrong with good debate as long as it can be kept relatively cordial. What I HATE is when mods like Fr_Chuck shut down a thread simply because someone starts making a little too much sense! A mod's bias shouldn't be so obvious.

[Credendovidis]

... I didn't realize Cred was such a busy man that he couldn't answer a few questions.... Dear Cred, as* in nine means asinine, which means inane, which means mindless; repetitive, uninformative. Since English is just your third language, I guess that's why you do that and the reason you just don't understand what is being said here. Also the reason you can't answer the hard questions ....

Well, that I do not recognize unknown-to-me abbreviations do not make me someone who just does not understand what is being said here. That is took two repeat questions in two different posts by me before you explained what you meant with that abbreviation shows more of your negativity than of my supposed lack of comprehension skills.

Besides that : your various aggressive posts here also provide a perfect view of your religious intolerance!!

:rolleyes:

·

[WVHiflyer]

...For example...

Either there once was a man walking around on this earth before a female ever existed, or there wasn't.

Either we share a common ancestor with an ape, or we don't.

Either there is an all-powerful Christian god who cares about us, can simultaneously hear billions of prayers, and sent himself to earth in order to be hideously tortured, or there isn't.

These are not matters of opinion. They either happened or they didn't. I see nothing wrong with trying to educate people in what science has to say about the veracity of such claims....

I agree w/ you on 1 & 2, but science has nothing to say on #3. It's when someone tries to mix science and religion that the real arguments begin. While scientific methods can investigate some supernatural occurrences (like ESP, ghosts... ) an onmiscient and omnipotent deity like God is far beyond any science investigation.

So, for me, #3 is a matter of opinion. I say it's irrational, believers say it's obvious. And never the twain shall meet...



-

[lobrobster]

So, for me, #3 is a matter of opinion. I say it's irrational, believers say it's obvious. And never the twain shall meet....-

Can we respectfully delve into this a little deeper?

I agree that it's not the purpose of science to explain whether any gods exist. But I disagree that the existence of god is a matter of opinion. Again, either a god exists, or it doesn't. And the Christian god requires an even much even bigger parlay than that, since they are claiming very precise attributes and claims for their god that are different from all other gods man does or ever has believed in.

I forgot who it was that said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

To this extent, many religions do in fact trespass directly within the boundaries of science. Things like virgin births, resurrections, surviving death, and turning water into wine, all violate scientific laws and science does have something to say about them. Do you disagree?

[WVHiflyer]

"...the existence of god a matter of opinion." Actually that's a tough one. Since there is no way to scientifically prove or disprove any god's existence, that makes it a matter of opinion. I consider such an entity's existence an irrationality that cannot exist. But since I can never have any proof of that, it remains my opinion.

As far as the artifacts, such as virgin births, etc, yes, science can provide explanation or disproof on the occurrence. Believers won't accept it, of course. When the Shroud of Turin was exposed, believers just claimed the science was faulty. And they're hoping, and some claim not, that when science cannot provide a reasonable explanation or can't agree on one, believers accept that as a failure of science and 'proof' of their 'opinion.'



-

[lobrobster]

Actually that's a tough one. Since there is no way to scientifically prove or disprove any god's existence, that makes it a matter of opinion. I consider such an entity's existence an irrationality that cannot exist. But since I can never have any proof of that, it remains my opinion.

I can accept that, because I understand where you're coming from and I hold the same view. That is, I realize that neither I nor science can ever satisfactorily prove or disprove the existence of god. The fact remains however, that the truth DOES exist one way or the other. How you and I arrived at our respective belief was through personalized logical conjecture given what we think we know about science and reality. So I'll leave it alone. I think we're really only disagreeing on semantics.

[WVHiflyer]

Lobroster - I was going to bring up the semantics, but decided to try and explain further instead. So much disagreement on this seems to be a matter of 'failure to communicate.'

So, yeqah. I agree <G>

[De Maria]

Ok, I get that, that people have faith in what they cannot see... but if you can't see it, prove it, or support it with anything other than texts from within the religion or testimonies from those who are part of that religious movement... then how sure can you be that YOUR religion is CORRECT? Because other religions go off the same basis-

Then it boils down to your judgement.

If you have gotten to the point that you have accepted the evidence for the existence of God. And you have moved to the point of deciding which religion represents God best for you, then this is where your discernment comes in.

Which religion has the best evidence?
Which religion as the most wise teachings?
Which religion has the most impact on your life?

How sure can I be? At this point in my life, I'm absolutely certain that the Catholic Church is the true Church which God in His Wisdom placed here to guide us and to reveal His Will.

How sure can YOU be? I don't know.

that you can't have proof,

??

Says who? Proof is the evidence which convinces YOU. I have proof. I reviewed the same evidence possibly which you rejected. For me, it was proof. For you it wasn't.

That doesn't mean that I don't have proof. That means that you don't have proof. I am thoroughly convinced.

you have to have faith, and they have the support of THEIR texts and THEIR believers. Do you see what I mean?

Yes. They have faith in one set of facts. I have faith in another. And you have faith in another. That's free will.

Each religion can have the same TYPES of 'proof' and ideas about faith and believing what you cannot see... but if no one can see anything they believe in, and it's just blind trust or faith or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it, how can you be so CONFIDENT that what you believe is right?

It's the same way that you can be so sure that the Big Bang happened or that evolution is true.

You are convinced by the evidence for those theories. I am convinced by the evidence for God's existence and for the truth of Catholic Teaching.

Or do religious people just believe that what they believe is right FOR THEM because it works FOR THEM and that others don't necessarily have to believe in the same way as they do as long as what they are doing WORKS.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. But I believe the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of truth. And I believe everyone who accepts the Catholic Church's teachings is doing the best they can for their souls.

I also believe and the Catholic Church teaches, that each man has a free will to accept or reject either the whole truth or any part thereof. That means that people frequently accept and believe things which don't work and are wrong for them. But they prefer those beliefs to the truth.

That kind of view I'd have a much easier time understanding.

That's because its easier. No person in their right mind would ever make up a religion like the Catholic Church. That speaks volumes to me that it is the true religion of God. Why make up a religion with such high moral and ethical standards?

Why not a religion where we can party day and night and live for ourselves? If I was going to make up a religion, that's one I'd make up and did for many years. But now I prefer to accept the truth. And the truth is inconvenient for those who want a religion of self glorification.

But how can those who believe in something they cannot see or provide evidence for be so sure that their beliefs are so true and set in stone and definite that they then go on to try to convince others that their way is the only way, or the best way, or the 'truth'?

You keep saying we don't have evidence. But we do.

Once you accept that we have evidence, then it should follow logically that we can be sure enough to try to convince others of the same conclusions which we have drawn from the evidence.

That's what I'm trying to understand, partially.

I hope that helped.

If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

I did so in message #90.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/search...archid=3010048

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

At this point in my life, I'm absolutely certain that the Catholic Church is the true Church which God in His Wisdom placed here to guide us and to reveal His Will.

I've been curious about this for quite some time. Not just about you, but all Christians...

Why would you think God placed a Catholic church here? There is no mention of Christianity in the old testament. Jesus himself was born a Jew and died a Jew. His mother was a Jew. There is no reason to think he considered himself anything but a Jew. Or am I wrong about that? Christianity never would have existed if it wasn't for a disagreement over the divinity of Jesus. It just so happens that many Jews never saw his miracles or resurrection and didn't believe the few people who said they did.

Am I all wrong about this? If so, I'd appreciate if someone explained it to me. I never did understand how Christianity got started or why God would bless it, let alone give it to us (and I was raised Catholic myself). Thanks.

[1300starlet]

Read the bible and you'll find your answer there...
p.s. not all bible are the same... suggest something like the living bible

[lobrobster]

read the bible and you'll find your answer there......
p.s. not all bible are the same....suggest something like the living bible

Are you answering my question? The OT has nothing to say about Christianity, and the NT was written by the few who disagreed over Jesus' divinity. So how can I expect to find the right answer there?

[N0help4u]

Like 1300starlet said if you read the Bible, especially Acts and Pentecost, it explains about the Church and 'first the jew then the gentile'. The OT is rich in what Christians believe.
I am not going through the whole thing but will try and answer more specific questions.


IF you are seriously wanting to know I found a link that explains SOME of it

The Bible & Archaeology - The Book of Acts: The Church Begins

Check the links at the bottom of that site too

[sassyT]

Are you answering my question? The OT has nothing to say about Christianity, and the NT was written by the few who disagreed over Jesus' divinity. So how can I expect to find the right answer there?

Lobro ofcouse niether the New or the Old testament mension the word "Christianity" because this is a term that was coined in AD. To describe people who follow the teachings of Christ.
The Old testament is just pages upon pages of Prophesy about the coming of the Messiah (i.e Christ) who is to come and dies for the sins of the world. If you read Isaiah 53 of the old testament it is a wonderful example of how a man, Isaiah, who lived thousands of years before Christ, wrote and prophesied of Christ's coming. Isaiah describes every aspect of the Crusifiction of Christs hundreds of years before it happened. So the Old testament is consists of prophetic writing about the coming redemption in Christ.

[lobrobster]

Like 1300starlet said if you read the Bible, especially Acts and Pentecost, it explains about the Church and 'first the jew then the gentile'. The OT is rich in what Christians believe.
I am not going through the whole thing but will try and answer more specific questions.


IF you are seriously wanting to know I found a link that explains SOME of it

The Bible & Archaeology - The Book of Acts: The Church Begins

Thank you. It looks long, but I'll read the whole thing if you think the answer to my question is there. Again, I'm specifically looking for reasons one can assume that God sanctions Christianity over Judaism (or any other religion). Since Christianity came after Jesus' death, I don't see how that's possible.

I imagine it's mainly through inferring that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the OT? But this doesn't explain why so many Jews who go by the same OT disagree. Surely, there is no reason to think that the few people who started Christianity were that much smarter than all the Jews? I'll read through the link. Thanks again.