[waltero]

What will happen in the Afterlife?

This post doesn't seem to allow any further discussion (was that you WG)??

@WG: It's almost impossible to have a discussion with you. Every time you get in trouble (When your position doesn't fit the narrative), you simply claim it as being an allegory, or "man wrote the Bible" as if that's a simple explanation for your problem. Or wrong interpretation, due to biased translators. Sinful men translated the Bible with natural (sin/nature factor) ill intent.

It's much the same when talking politics. Somebody says something, and the opposing party simply responds - "that's a lie!" and they leave it at that. No room for further discussion.

If you want to engage in a discussion, having anything, to do with the Bible, you must believe (same here) that it holds the true (intact) word of God, as if it is God speaking directly to you. When Jesus talks in parables, you might better understand them being real-life situations, that took place sometime throughout History. Take your allegory and place it in your mind as being real, not just a fictitious story...only then can we have a discussion on an even playing field.

That's just the way I see it. Please don't get all defensive on me.

Moving on.

Can we Talk about Holyness? Is Jesus Holy? Was Jesus holy? Are we Holy? Are we being made Holy? Was Jesus being made holy?

The Bible writers draw a sharp contrast between the Lord's character and that of humankind. Jesus lived a life of holiness and total devotion to God. Do you see where I'm going with this? Holiness precludes sin. It is impossible for Jesus to have sinned...NEVER EVER!

[jlisenbe]

Once again you have put forward some serious claims without ever referring specifically to any Bible passages, so it's hard to know how to respond.

When Jesus talks in parables, you might better understand them being real-life situations, that took place sometime throughout History. Take your allegory and place it in your mind as being real, not just a fictitious story...only then can we have a discussion on an even playing field.

Why would that be important? In other words, how would it make a difference, especially considering that we are never told to do that in the New Testament? "Thou shalt regard parables as being real stories," is a command not found anywhere.

As far as I know, the Bible never directly says anything about the possibility of Jesus ever sinning. That seems rather strange to me, but one of you might know of a passage that does address this.

[Wondergirl]

Romans 8:3 --

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[a] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[b] And so he condemned sin in the flesh.

Footnotes

1. Romans 8:3 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.
2. Romans 8:3 Or flesh, for sin

[waltero]

Once again

I was simply saying, instead of crying foul; It might be better to liken it as taking place in real life.

Example: Talking Snake. Noah's Ark. The Flood and many More supposed Allegories. A person can claim "allegory" anytime they feel like it.
It might be better to liken it to taking place in real life. I'm just saying...what would it hurt?

@WG: Are your Bible references indicating that Jesus was a sinner? Or that he has sinned? or even capable of sinning?

[Wondergirl]

Could Jesus have sinned?

Was Jesus Christ, who was God manifested in the flesh (John 1:1 - 4), susceptible to temptation? Could he have sinned by either choice or accident? Was it possible the devil, appealing to his human nature (Hebrews 2:14 - 18), could have led Jesus to disobey his Father?

On the other hand, given his critical role in our salvation, was Jesus, like his heavenly Father, sealed righteous and incapable of sinning? Was it impossible any temptation could adversely affect him? Was it pre-determined the pulls and appetites of his human nature would never be able to lead him to sin in his thoughts and deeds?

We will explore three key Biblical passages, out of many, which show the kind of life Jesus experienced during his 33 1/2 years as a human. We will learn that the Lord recognized he could sin and therefore took steps to lessen the possibility that he did so.

https://www.biblestudy.org/maturart/...ve-sinned.html

[Wondergirl]

Noah's Ark -- allegory or true story? OR a true story that became an allegory -- some background information

A Noah by Any Other Name -- Noah's Prequel

If you read texts predating the Bible, you'll find that the well-known Old Testament Noah did not make his literary debut in the Holy Scriptures. Rather, he made his first appearance about 2,000 years or so earlier in the Sumerian civilization of Mesopotamia. Holding power from roughly 3500 B.C. to 2000 B.C., the Sumerians were the first people to sketch out the story of Noah, except they called him Ziusudra.

Later, the Babylonians would record a similar tale in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest book in recorded history. As the Babylonians tell it, a man named Utnapishtim was warned of a great storm and built a boat an acre in size, split into six different divisions. All surrounding lands flooded after six days and nights of rain. Sailing to what may have been modern-day Bahrain, Utnapishtim and his wife received immortality for his obedience.

Here's where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers come into play. The two waterways that slice through modern day Iraq served as the main thoroughfares for trade at that time, and were the setting for the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Because both rivers flood each summer, scholars think that Noah's story may be based on that actual event -- a greater than usual flooding of the Tigris or Euphrates. In fact, archeologists have uncovered evidence of such a great flood in Mesopotamia, dating back to around 2900 B.C., that quickly wiped out a number of Sumerian cities [source: Saggs].

The real-life Noah could have been a wealthy merchant who had a strong enough boat to withstand the storm. Passed down through generations of telling and retelling, the story could have evolved over the centuries to integrate the Judeo-Christian and Islamic beliefs.

Please continue reading at:
https://history.howstuffworks.com/hi...or%20Euphrates.

[waltero]

Interesting read. Some quotes; Jesus understood that his human nature was always ready to lead him down the path of sin and death (see Romans 7:18 - 24). - Jesus knew he could not go it alone and understood the very real possibility that he could sin. One of the greatest proofs that Jesus not only could have sinned, but also was fully aware he had the power to do so.

So, Jesus understood his Human Nature and he had the Power to sin.
Maybe now is a good time to bring in; Power and Authority.

[jlisenbe]

Example: Talking Snake. Noah's Ark. The Flood and many More supposed Allegories. A person can claim "allegory" anytime they feel like it. It might be better to liken it to taking place in real life. I'm just saying...what would it hurt?

You had referred to the parables of Jesus and taking them as real life events. This above is a different story as they do not pertain to Christ's parables. I would agree with you on what you listed above.

WG, what point are you trying to support with this? "Romans 8:3. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[a] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[b] And so he condemned sin in the flesh."

Walter, Romans 7:18-24 did not pertain to Jesus. That was Paul speaking about his own personal experience. Jesus doesn't enter until verse 25.

[waltero]

Walter, Romans 7:18-24 did not pertain to Jesus.

Ah, interesting. I was in a hurry so I just brazed through the link WG posted.

https://history.howstuffworks.com/hi...or%20Euphrates.

All he is saying is; "Jesus understood his Human Nature and he had the Power to sin." Paul knew the same thing...you know the same thing.

Do you sin? Do you now have the power to stop sinning? Do you still sin, even while having the power of the Holy Spirit? Where does sin come from? Does a slave have free will? Why do we need a priest? Who are God's chosen people? Who is the chosen one...was he chosen before or after being birthed? **Why do the Jews reject Jesus as being the Messiah (this should be the answer you were not hoping to find)?

Answer these questions, to yourself, and you might see the light.

Here are a few more; Can Satan ever tell the truth? is Satan capable of telling the truth? Is the coming Antichrist able to do anything righteous? Does Satan know and understand Righteousness? To God is all the power and Authority!

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...us-have-sinned

[jlisenbe]

"How Stuff Works" would not be my first choice for finding knowledge about the Bible.

Do you sin? Do you now have the power to stop sinning? Do you still sin, even while having the power of the Holy Spirit? Where does sin come from? Does a slave have free will? Why do we need a priest? Who are God's chosen people? Who is the chosen one...was he chosen before or after being birthed? **Why do the Jews reject Jesus as being the Messiah (this should be the answer you were not hoping to find)?

A boatload of unrelated questions does nothing to advance this discussion. Let's try just taking the first two.

1. Do you sin? Yes.
2. Do you now have the power to stop sinning. Yes.

So that raises a good point. If we Christians are no longer slaves to sin, why do we seem to continue to fall prey to it?

All he is saying is; "Jesus understood his Human Nature and he had the Power to sin." Paul knew the same thing...you know the same thing.

Are you saying this in reference to the Romans 7 passage, because that is not at all what Paul was saying there. He never even mentioned Jesus until verse 25, so I have no idea how you could get that meaning from that passage.

[Wondergirl]

"How Stuff Works" would not be my first choice for finding knowledge about the Bible.

Subtitle:

Culture - History - History vs. Myth

[jlisenbe]

Still coming from "How Stuff Works". The Bible is not "stuff".

[Wondergirl]

Still coming from "How Stuff Works". The Bible is not "stuff".

There's lots of stuff in the Bible to discuss.

[waltero]

All he is saying

I thought it would have been clear; I quoted WG link. and then I responded. I was referring to WG"s link. The dude that was talking about Jesus's ability to sin.

Look, If God wanted a person to preach to the Gentiles he would create a Paul. If God promised a messiah, he would create...
Being set apart from God means being chosen by Him for His glory and purpose.

@WG: If Jesus was capable of sinning, at what point was Jesus incapable of Sinning?

Jesus was born holy and sinless, in distinction from all other children born naturally since Adam. It is impossible for somebody who is holy to sin. Holyness precludes sin. The Pharisees didn't see Jesus's Holiness. Ignoring God's holiness brought deadly consequences...Do you understand that the Jews missed it? Don't you miss it too? Jesus never doubted, and sin never entered thought. How do we know this, you say? because he remained sinless!

If Jesus had been capable of sinning that would mean we all lose. Our own ability to sin would remain and be remembered even while cohabitating within him. Even though we still sin, it is not us sinning. Not only has sin been forgotten, it has been taken away...as if we never sinned at all, for all time. Sin no longer exists. If you believe Jesus (the Son of God) is capable of sin, then sin will live (in you) forever.

I'm talking as if we have already entered Eternity.

[jlisenbe]

I thought it would have been clear; I quoted WG link. and then I responded. I was referring to WG"s link. The dude that was talking about Jesus's ability to sin.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification, but you evidently pasted the wrong link, for the one you copied/pasted was about Noah's flood.

Even though we still sin, it is not us sinning.

Sin no longer exists.

Elaborate on those two points some. Where do you find that in the Bible?

[waltero]

If you understand the fact that Jesus was born holy and sinless, Then you will know that the two (holiness and sin) are mutually exclusive...The participation in the life of God that we call “holiness” precludes sin.
Christ revealed the sin of his age in contrast to his own holiness.

Romans 17:17 "It is sin living in me that does it." At that time there was no sin [living] in Jesus, so it would be impossible for him to be susceptible to sin. Only now does Jesus have sin living in him...It is that same sin that is living in us that lives in him. Jesus takes all sin upon himself...Jesus, take all my sins upon yourself (seems like a nasty thing to do to someone doesn't it?). Sin is no longer sin as we know it.

[Wondergirl]

Could Jesus have sinned?

[waltero]

Could Jesus have sinned?

WG, there is no sin. sin has been done away with. How could God sin when there is no sin? how could humanity have sinned when there is no sin? The sin that is in you has either died or is going to die. Kill it now before it claims you. Jesus is life, sin is death. Jesus's life gives life to all of creation. Are you being created right now - yes. Let God create in you a life free of sin. If you don't grab onto God's Holyness (which is free from sin, aka Jesus) then the sin that we have all become will have no part (life) in what God is creating, through his Son Jesus. If you think Jesus was capable of sinning then you believe God is capable of sinning and in turn, you will fall subject to sin for all eternity.

[Wondergirl]

Waltero, you say there is no sin? Why did Satan tempt Him (from Matt. 4):

8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” ?

Waltero, again, you say there is no sin? Two daily newspapers are delivered to our house each morning. Page after page is filled with reports of robberies, shootings, killings. Those are sins!

There is no freedom from sin in this life.

[waltero]

Why did Satan tempt Him (from Matt. 4):

You already have your answer, why ask me?

Why did Satan tempt Him

Falls under the same line as; Why does the Devel carry on as he does, even though he knows he has been defeated? Why did Satan tempt Jesus? Why does he continue tempting Jesus? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT SIN DOES!!!

again, you say there is no sin?

That's what I'm getting at... AND - Again, you say there is sin!

Right now, Jesus is that life that we can look forward to in the reign of God we will be freed from every stain of sin and every shadow of death. Does God rein in your life?