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    jenjeru's Avatar
    jenjeru Posts: 3, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Feb 6, 2010, 08:56 AM
    What is it about Catholicism that turns so many away?
    I am currently working on an experimental documentary about religious upbringing and in connecting with others to explore why we do or do not question our faith, I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic. What is it about Catholicism that turns so many away? Is it the "fear and guilt" associated with Catholicism? Is it the rigid traditionalism or Catholic schooling?
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #2

    Feb 6, 2010, 09:28 AM

    This is going to turn into a firestorm but here goes.

    I was raised strict Roman Catholic. My split is about the "We are right and everybody else is wrong" philosophy as well as the hypocrisy. I know that RC's are not the only ones who "own" bad clergymen, hypocrites but I am not familiar with other religions.

    Maybe other RC churches are different but my childhood religious experience consisted of people judging each other instead of leaving that up to God - and it turned me away. I've seen people here, on this board, preach Christianity and then in the next breath attack someone purely in the name of God.

    That's my experience - I wanted a religion with less fire and brimstone and more love and support.
    galveston's Avatar
    galveston Posts: 451, Reputation: 60
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    #3

    Feb 6, 2010, 06:15 PM

    I see the problem as being that the RCC (and some others) as holding that there is no truth outside of their group.

    That is difficult to hang on to when you see so much that is wrong going on within that group.

    What EVERYONE needs to know is that NO church gives salvation.

    A good church is needed and worthy of support for a lot of reasons, but SALVATION comes from knowing and receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

    His record, love, and commands are all revealed in the pages of the New Testament. Read it with an open heart and mind, and you will find the TRUTH.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #4

    Feb 6, 2010, 06:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    I see the problem as being that the RCC (and some others) as holding that there is no truth outside of thier group.

    That is difficult to hang on to when you see so much that is wrong going on within that group.

    What EVERYONE needs to know is that NO church gives salvation.

    A good church is needed and worthy of support for a lot of reasons, but SALVATION comes from knowing and receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

    His record, love, and commands are all revealed in the pages of the New Testament. Read it with an open heart and mind, and you will find the TRUTH.


    But what about non-Christians? There is no salvation for them?

    - and there is my other problem with Christianity in general.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #5

    Feb 6, 2010, 06:29 PM

    Most are turned away by untrue statements of groups that make it their sole purpose to attack other groups.

    At times one issue is that they do not cater to those that want new and modern.

    But to some the changes they have made, ( like Vactican II) stoping the Latin Mass, were turn offs
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #6

    Feb 7, 2010, 01:13 AM

    jenjeru,
    Your statement, "I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic." amazed me.
    The Catholic religion is Christianity just as are the Protestant denominations.
    Perhaps you are referring to other religions than Christianity.
    I know of no Catholics who are against the religion of Christianity.
    I'm a former protestant who for years was very hostile to Catholicism but the more I studied the more I could see that Catholicism was true full Christianity and after much resistance became a Catholic, but I am NOT against other denominations.
    I fact I still love the denomination I left because it lead me to Jesus Christ.
    So please be more clear as to what your statement says.
    Are you speaking of Christian denominations or other religions?
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    jenjeru's Avatar
    jenjeru Posts: 3, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Feb 7, 2010, 08:54 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    jenjeru,
    Your statement, "I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic." amazed me.
    The Catholic religion is Christianity just as are the Protestant denominations.
    Perhaps you are referring to other religions than Christianity.
    I know of no Catholics who are against the religion of Christianity.
    I'm a former protestant who for years was very hostile to Catholicism but the more I studied the more I could see that Catholicism was true full Christianity and after much resistance became a Catholic, but I am NOT against other denominations.
    I fact I still love the denomination I left because it lead me to Jesus Christ.
    So please be more clear as to what your statement says.
    Are you speaking of Christian denominations or other religions?
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    Fred,

    Thank you for your answer. I am speaking about Catholicism in particular, as a denomination of Christianity. I understand that there are many reasons for choosing a particular faith or leaving it (depending on geography, ethnicity, culture, etc.) so the fact that most of the people I have interviewed about falling away from religion are Catholic is largely based on the community in which I was raised and currently reside.

    However, I'm more interested in getting a broader opinion about Catholicism and why there is such a push against it... why being raised Catholic affects people so strongly. One Catholic priest that I interviewed said to me in a joking manner, "Do you know what the largest Christian denomination around the world is today? Catholicism. Do you know what the second largest is? Former Catholics."

    So again, it's not necessarily Catholics being against Christianity, but rather something about Catholicism (be it the dogmatism, or rejection of other beliefs as previously mentioned) that causes groups like "recovering Catholics" to form.

    All best,

    Jenna
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #8

    Feb 7, 2010, 11:31 AM

    One of the issue is "issues" the Catholic Church has a moral compass, and specific set standards, unlike some other churches, it does not allow or let people decide what they feel is right, the church tells them what is correct on issues of sex before marriage, abortion, and other issues. Along with this, many people don't like being told what is the correct moral code.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #9

    Feb 7, 2010, 11:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    One of the issue is "issues" the Catholic Church has a moral compass, and specific set standards, unlike some other churches, it does not allow or let people decide what they feel is right, the church tells them what is correct on issues of sex before marriage, abortion, and other issues. Along with this, many people don't like being told what is the correct moral code.

    This is also one of my concerns - in my area decisions about second marriages (without church annulments), birth control, abortion (which startles me) are matters of conscience.

    Apparently if it's okay with "you" it's okay with the Church.

    Very unlike the way I was taught! I was also raised to believe that the worst sin of all was bad example.

    I also agree - I could do without the kiss of peace, guitar music and mass in English.
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    450donn Posts: 1,821, Reputation: 239
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    #10

    Feb 7, 2010, 02:13 PM

    So far I have restrained myself, But can no longer hold back.
    In my opinion and you are free to disagree, but In my opinion the biggest problem the RCC has are legalism, and too much pomp and ceremony. For those like Fred who like that sort of religion that's fine. But to reach people today you must talk and work at their level. That does not mean drinking and swearing , but rather actually having been where they are and able to relate to them in a real way. As I see it, priests are too insulated from real world experiences. Couple that to a hierarchy that is too steeped in robes and laws than trying to reach lost souls.
    The people who are actually reaching the most people today have been delivered from drugs, alcohol, or sex addictions. They are the ones who relate to and reach people, like God commanded. Jesus did not go to the religious leaders of his day, he went to the sinners and saved them. He knew that pomp and ceremony as practiced by the Jewish leaders of the day did not work. So why do people believe it will work today?
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #11

    Feb 7, 2010, 03:34 PM

    My gosh, Donn - I can't believe we FINALLY agree on something!

    Well said.
    JoeT777's Avatar
    JoeT777 Posts: 1,248, Reputation: 44
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    #12

    Feb 7, 2010, 06:10 PM
    This is a can of worms; and I’ll try to keep this worm within a respectable distance of the can’s rim. From the OP I think it would be fair to assume that the perspective is strictly ‘raised Protestant’ with little contact with Catholics or the likes of me – staunchly orthodox and Roman Catholic. Some here might want to use a few different adjectives – but I earned those bad adjectives, not the Church.

    The Catholic priest you spoke to was right in two ways. First, all but a very few Protestant denominations are a result of schism from the Catholic Church – their history begins with breaking away from the Catholic Church. Most have a history only 1/4th that of the span of time separating us from Christ and the commissioning of His Church. The second is that the population of the Catholic Church is comparatively large that the smallest fraction of these apostates would seem huge compared to that of the Protestant Churches.

    My perception is that there are more Protestants returning home as opposed to Catholics leaving. Neverthelessto explain this small percentage leaving I’ve come to the conclusion that the reason for the perceived ‘push against the Church’ can be characterized as a viral illness of faith. Pathologically this disease starts in earnest with Martin Luther which eventually spread across Europe in 1500 & 1600’s.

    It’s my opinion that Protestantism is symptomatic of the H1N1 virus of faith. It’s a designer virus attacking right reasoning since its introduction by an errant monk. (I’ve recently been convinced that he was pathologically mad – but that’s for another thread). This virus is defined by some (such as me) as liberalism; somewhat similar to the political variant. Liberalism holds that there is, as a right, emancipation from Divine Authority proclaiming a sovereignty of will in all sectors of life that control and judge all matters of faith and morals. To satisfy the liberal, God must conform His will to that of the liberal. Liberalism’s true authority resides in the subjective interior of the individual with the power to shut out God’s workings within His own creation. The philosophy proposes that "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part, and perhaps in some cases without realizing it, liberalism denies God with this autonomous freedom, conflicting with the Catholic Church. Once completely overtaken by the disease, the individual finds no ‘right’, no ‘wrong’; only that which warms the interior, that which feels good becomes good.

    An autonomous authority requires “freedom from” morals as well as “freedom to” implement a proxy ethic independent of God’s will; which is how the Protestant schism is viewed by some Catholics. As such Scriptures become subjective to the individual and the meaning becomes different for each individual (or from group to group); thus we hear the refrain "one religion is as good as another." Faith becomes a social construct based on whether it feels right, or feels good, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Discipline in faith is exercised less and less; it becomes weedy with passing of time until all discipline in right reasoning is rejected. The fault seems to be that conclusions drawn from the autonomous intellectual is lacking the guidance and authority found in the Catholic Church. Judgments become rationalizations without a foundation in an absolute truth that only the Catechism brings. Thus it can be said that liberalism becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).” (See Link -~Liberalism is a Sin~)

    --------------- EDIT-------------------

    Like many viruses found in nature, there is no natural immunity, the body merely becomes accustom to profaning pathogen. Each variant of liberalism mutates from simple schismatic sect to complex variants completely void of any vestige of Christianity. There is however a treatment facility, a Divine hospice, which is the Catholic faith.

    Therefore, what you see as pushing away, I see as a sick reasoning. The Church turns nobody away; I hope your priest told you that. The Church takes in sinner, saints, even grouchy old men. “Fear and guilt” isn’t connected to Catholicism it’s the only faith I know of that offers a sacrament of penance; for the contrite a complete absolution that not only removes the stain of sin, but any indebtedness to Divine Justice. So, if there is any fear or guilt, it’s entirely self induced – I would suggest from, at least in part, liberalism.

    Beyond me, beyond what must sound like a grouchy old man, assuming you’re a just person, I’d suggest relying heavily on your prejudices and not dig too deep into Catholicism. The reasons are best explained by G.K. Chesterton who once wrote, "It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair. The man has exactly the same sense of having…compromised himself; of having been in a sense entrapped, even if he is glad to be entrapped. But for a considerable time he is not so much glad as simply terrified. It may be that this real psychological experience has been misunderstood by stupider people and is responsible for all that remains of the legend that Rome is a mere trap. But that legend misses the whole point of the psychology. It is not the Pope who has set the trap or the priests who have baited it. The whole point of the position is that the trap is simply the truth. The whole point is that the man himself has made his way towards the trap of truth, and not the trap that has run after the man. All steps except the last step he has taken eagerly on his own account, out of interest in the truth; and even the last step, or the last stage, only alarms him because it is so very true.” In short, if you dig too deep you may find yourself ensnared.

    JoeT
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #13

    Feb 7, 2010, 06:13 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    As of this writing, there are two non-Catholic responses that typify liberalism on this very thread; one has the nature of relativism the other of rationalism. One is willing to accept Catholicism for Catholics – as long as she is confined – this is a variant of ‘one religion is as good as another’. The other states the desire for a religion that suits the needs of the writer.JoeT


    Would you care to name names and cite examples?
    JoeT777's Avatar
    JoeT777 Posts: 1,248, Reputation: 44
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    #14

    Feb 7, 2010, 06:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JudyKayTee View Post
    Would you care to name names and cite examples?
    No - You'll beat me up! But, if you insist I will.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #15

    Feb 7, 2010, 06:17 PM

    I think if you are going to give your opinion of where people are coming from they have the right to defend themselves (or herself, in this case, and I believe I'm the only female "here").
    JoeT777's Avatar
    JoeT777 Posts: 1,248, Reputation: 44
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    #16

    Feb 7, 2010, 06:36 PM
    First of all, I didn't use gender that would identify anybody, I simply said 'writer'. I'll be happy to discuss this, it's not BAD; it simply typifies the type of 'liberalism' I was discussing. If you want to continue I will.

    JoeT
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #17

    Feb 7, 2010, 09:52 PM

    jenjeru,
    I firmly believe that anyone who really understands Catholic teaching will never leave the Church unless they do it for selfish sinful reasons.
    It took me years to finally come to the understanding of The Church and all of its ceremony (there are very valid biblical reasons for the robes and ceremony).
    Those who speak out against The Church do so much because they do not understand it and speak NOT about what it is but rather what they THINK it is.
    Fr_Chuck mentioned some of the other reasons.
    SOME People LIKE their immorality.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    rosemcs's Avatar
    rosemcs Posts: 325, Reputation: 47
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    #18

    Feb 7, 2010, 11:30 PM

    Jenjuru, you have some good answers from the posts here. Catholics that are raised Catholic or are converts, find themselves mostly leaving when they come to a point in their life when they do not want to follow the rules anymore, especially birth control and homosexuality. That is the main reason a Catholic would leave.

    There are tons of other reasons, but birth control is number one. If one does not want to follow the rules, why would one want to stay?

    I site this article, but it is in many places on the web, just ask most any local mom ex-Catholic you know around town.
    Many Catholics Leave Faith Over Dissatisfaction With Teachings On Abortion, Other Issues, Study Finds
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #19

    Feb 7, 2010, 11:39 PM

    rosemcs,
    What you say is true, but...
    I very much believe that almost all people who truly know and understand the Catholic Christian faith will never leave it.
    There are very good reasons the Catholic Church teaches as it does and those reasons are all biblically based.
    Peace
    E and kindness,
    Fred
    TUT317's Avatar
    TUT317 Posts: 657, Reputation: 76
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    #20

    Feb 8, 2010, 12:28 AM
    Hello Joe T.

    In regards to C.B. Pallen's thesis on 'What Liberalism is"

    This is a misrepresentation of Liberal philosophy. It is difficult to know where to begin so I will begin with a quote by Pallen.

    'Absolute freedom of thought in politics, morals, or religion. The unrestrained liberty of the press. Such are the radical principles of Liberalism. In the assumption of absolute sovereignty of the individual, that is, his entire independence of God we find the common source of all the others. To express them all in one term in the order of ideas, they are RATIONALISM the doctrine of absolute sovereignty of human reason"

    Firstly, RATIONALISM is not the basis of Liberalism. Liberal philosophers such as Mill, Bentham and Locke are empirical philosophers.

    Plato, St. Thomas Aquinas and Descartes are rationalist philosophers. There is an important distinction here.

    Pallen tries to paint Liberalism as a 'bootstrap' theory. This is impossible because it is empirically based. I can see why he plays the rationalist card. He knows as well as as everyone else that rationalist theories are not subject to any proof others than those contained within the premises of the theory. In other words, Pallen cannot show that Liberalism is self evidently inconsistent because it is not a rationalist theory.

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