[iAMfromHuntersBar]

I hope to get a good discussion going here on this!

I was searching through wikipedia, like you do, when I stumbled across this;

Victims of Communism Memorial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've got to say, I'm pretty shocked!

In my mind I see this as a bit of a 'look at us, we're great, you're not' act.

Surely this will just piss China, Korea etc... off? It's not great for international relations!

Millions of people have been 'Victims' of their respective governments throughout the ages, what makes Communism such a big deal?

Will this memorial also remember the thousands of American Communists who were arrested on their own soil because of their political beliefs?

[iAMfromHuntersBar]

Sorry to bump this, but no-one read it, and it fell to the bottom of the pile oh so fast!

[RubyPitbull]

Jesse Helms. Ugh. Figures. Old Bill must have been busy with his cigar when he signed the okay for that one. I am working on getting Skell to sponsor me for an Aussie citizenship. I can't take much more of the insanity. I am thinking of declaring the boundaries of my property as a separate country.

Hey, so what do you think of your man eating corgi in the streets of London to protest Prince Phillip's mistreatment of foxes?

[Skell]

Jesse Helms. ugh. Figures. Old Bill must have been busy with his cigar when he signed the okay for that one. I am working on getting Skell to sponsor me for an Aussie citizenship. I can't take much more of the insanity. I am thinking of declaring the boundaries of my property as a separate country.

Hey, so what do you think of your man eating corgi in the streets of London to protest Prince Phillip's mistreatment of foxes?

Im working on it Ruby.

Do you have any Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander heritage?

Have you even been convicted of a crime?

Do you like your beer cold? What was Don Bradman's average? Who was Australias first Prime Minister?

Believe it or not these questions are going to be asked soon when people take a citizenship test! Well the last two anyway! But I reckon they should have to answer the one about the Beer too!

[ebaines]

There is already a Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC - do you have a problem with that? Well, the regimes of good old Uncle Joe, Chairman Mao, and Pol Pot murdered significantly more of their own countrmen than Hitler ever did. Not to say that all Communist countries are in the same basket with these communistas, but I doubt you could me one Communist regime that ever demonstrated any respect ever for any individual rights. After all, the basic point of communism is that the state supplants all.

[jillianleab]

Communism works in theory but not in practice. It ends up riddled with corruption and innocent people suffer. I see nothing wrong with a memorial to the victims of communism. Read up on North Korea and the former Soviet Union. Read about the Cold War and Vietnam and come back and let me know if it's still so crazy to make a memorial to those who lost their lives because of communist regimes. Yes people have lost their lives to other types of governments, but communism had a profound effect on the entire world.

Oh, and China isn't communist. Neither is South Korea.

[RubyPitbull]

I am really tired of people assuming others aren't well read on whatever thread they choose to post on. Sorry, but I fail to see how anyone could equate the victims of the Holocaust with the victims of Communism. I am not trying to minimize the deaths of anyone or any of the vicious and mindless shedding of blood that has occurred throughout the centuries. If we built a memorial to a specific tragedy, such as to the victims of Tiananmen Square, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. But, to build a monument villifying an entire political system that is still in place in many countries, is more than out of line. It is just the standard in egotism to be found in the United States. Since it's inception, Democracy has had a profound impact on many peoples lives around the world. It has resulted in thousands of deaths as well. Do you think that it would be a smart political move on any other countries part to erect a monument to the victims of Democracy? How would that make you feel? I have a great idea! Why don't we spend even more of our time and energy, along with billions of dollars, to erect monuments to the victims of all political systems throughout the ages? I think that would make much more sense than just targeting one form of government. Let's just keep fueling more anger and hatred toward the U.S. than we already have going on now.

[iAMfromHuntersBar]

Spot, spot, spot on Ruby!

I seriously could not have put that better or more accurately myself!

[jillianleab]

Forgive me, but when someone posts that Korea and China are communist countries, it is apparent they are not well versed on what communism is, or where it currently is in the world.

I agree that the Holocaust victims and victims of communism should not be equated. They should not even be in the same sentence, and doing so is an insult to those who lost their lives in the Holocaust.

I wouldn't say the memorial vilifies an entire political system, but rather calls attention to the failings and the many victims of said system. If they place a huge banner that says "Communism sucks!" well, that's a little uncalled for, but it's important for people to understand there are people in this world who are living under oppressive governments against their will and are dying because of it. If a country erected a memorial for the victims of democracy, well, who cares? Obviously it's that country's political beliefs that Democracy is bad and shouldn't be supported, as it is our country's belief communism is bad and should be supported. My god, it's not like it's a declaration of war!

[ebaines]

Oh, and China isn't communist. Neither is South Korea.

Who mentioned South Korea?

And you wouldn't call China under Chmn Mao Communist? What was it?

[RubyPitbull]

Ah, well. At least we are getting into a logical debate, which is what Iamhunter was looking for.

Oh, and China isn't communist. Neither is South Korea.

Forgive me, but when someone posts that Korea and China are communist countries, it is apparent they are not well versed on what communism is, or where it currently is in the world.

Sorry, I wasn't so much interested in nitpicking or debating about Iam's choice of any countries current political climates. I'm still not. As ebaines points out, China is a country that would be included if we stick to the point of this thread, when we are talking about a memorial to all victims of Communism. So would Korea.

Communism works in theory but not in practice. It ends up riddled with corruption and innocent people suffer.

I agree with this. However, I believe your second sentence can be a blanket statement regarding most political systems. Democracy included. Our gov't is riddled with corruption and many innocent people do suffer.

I wouldn't say the memorial vilifies an entire political system, but rather calls attention to the failings and the many victims of said system. If they place a huge banner that says "Communism sucks!" well, that's a little uncalled for, but it's important for people to understand there are people in this world who are living under oppressive governments against their will and are dying because of it. If a country erected a memorial for the victims of democracy, well, who cares? Obviously it's that country's political beliefs that Democracy is bad and shouldn't be supported, as it is our country's belief communism is bad and should be supported. My god, it's not like it's a declaration of war!

You and I may not think it is a declaration of war. But, put yourself into the mindset of someone who is a government official under a communist regime. I think they would be more than a little up in arms. Would they declare war? I don't know. I think anything is possible. Look at Bin Laden as a perfect example of someone of a different mindset. He believes in his heart that we are absolutely foul and we kill anyone who gets in our way. And, don't you think that if another country built a memorial to the victims of Democracy, there would be people here who would care? There are those who live here, who would very much want to go to war, or do something drastic, to show their displeasure. I would hazard a guess that at least a couple of people who subscribe to this web site would want to bomb the crap out a country who would dare to do something they deemed to be so offensive to the U.S. So, why would anyone in another country, under a Communist regime, feel any less inclined to be offended by our making such a bold statement? It is not in our best interest politically, to be building a blanket memorial to the victims of Communism.

[inthebox]

Just to stir the pot


Slavery in this country

The Civil War - The war of Northern aggression.

Japanese internment during WW2




Grace and Peace

[jillianleab]

Who mentioned South Korea?

And you wouldn't call China under Chmn Mao Communist? What was it?

OP Did:

Surely this will just piss China, Korea etc... off?

OP did not mention South Korea specifically (which is a democracy), but North Korea isn't communist either - it's authoritarian/totalitarian. China is totalitarian, or, arguably, totalitarian. Both have factors of communism, but in China, private ownership and enterprise is allowed, which is forbidden in communist states. So perhaps I should have been more clear; China is NO LONGER communist.

Ruby I agree, democratic governments are also riddled with corruption and are far from perfect. However, democratic governments don't forbid basic human rights and suppress free enterprise as communist regimes do. Democratic governments are also not known for murdering their own people, which is what the memorial is supposed to be all about.

I live in DC and there has been no local coverage of this memorial being built. I think it will end up like 95% of the other memorials in DC and be ignored.

[RubyPitbull]

Ruby I agree, democratic governments are also riddled with corruption and are far from perfect. However, democratic governments don't forbid basic human rights and suppress free enterprise as communist regimes do. Democratic governments are also not known for murdering their own people, which is what the memorial is supposed to be all about.

I live in DC and there has been no local coverage of this memorial being built. I think it will end up like 95% of the other memorials in DC and be ignored.

Yes, Jillian I am well aware of the reasoning and the intentions behind the memorial and it's placement within view of the Capitol Building. That won't make a bit of difference to the leaders of Communist countries. I believe they will view it as an insult and I believe that they view our political system in the same way as we view theirs. It is all a matter of what anti-Democracy propaganda they have been fed as a regular diet. Do you really think they bother to study independent reports of how our system works? I don't.

I truly hope there won't be any world coverage on this and that you are correct in your assumption it will be ignored. It is slated to be dedicated on June 12.

[jillianleab]

But isn't everything we do an insult to other countries? So much false information about the US gets put out in the global news; I was recently reading about someone from an Asian country (I don't remember which one) who his entire life heard things like, most people in the US leave their estate to the pets, not their children, crime happens nonstop and you are likely to be assaulted no matter where you are and the govt does nothing about it, blah blah blah, all totally outrageous claims. He came to the US on a job transfer terrified because he thought the US was such a bizarre and unsafe country. He got here and realized the propaganda was wrong, and US citizens are a lot like citizens in his own country in many ways.

I'm sure there are no independent studies of democracy in the communist-like countries, because that might lead the public to fight for a change. I see what you are saying that it might anger some countries, but I don't think it will be anything new or anything to worry about.

I apologize if I insulted you regarding the intention of the memorial, I didn't mean to do that. I was just pointing out the intention of the memorial is to call attention to the people who have suffered greatly at the hands of their government, which I don't see as a bad thing. I seriously doubt the memorial will get much media attention, especially on a global scale. Hell, I was driving into the city a few weeks ago and noticed a new, huge memorial had been constructed which had been given no media attention whatsoever. It's this bizarre looking structure that is supposed to represent the contrails of Air Force jets. Apparently it's on a base and supposed to honor the servicemen and women. News coverage? What news coverage?

[RubyPitbull]

Jillian, very kind of you to apologize but no need. I wasn't insulted. I was just making a statement. I have been enjoying this exchange very much. Unfortunately, I am in the middle of some T-storms and keep getting disconnected.

I have read a lot of reports/interviews with people who come to this country only to find out all the information they have been spoon fed about us is wrong. China has been having a very tough time with the Internet situation. They are trying very hard to stop their people from reading anything not sanctioned by the current government. Revolution and the overthrowing of a government have happened with less information than they have access to now. Should be interesting to see how they manage to stifle it.

But, anyway, I don't want to steal Iamhunters thread. I don't think it is a bad thing to recognize the victims of anything and to honor their memory. However, I would prefer to see us build a national memorial or monument that is placed prominently for the victims of slavery, or Native American victims, rather than victims of another government's slaughter. We have representatives and leaders who will push their own agendas onto the rest of us. I don't understand why victims of Communism are considered more important than these other victims. We live in a country with policians who seem to insist on doing everything their own way, feeling that everything they do is for the good of the country as a whole. I don't feel that they take into consideration who we piss off. Yes, I agree, it isn't anything new. That is what worries me. When will the really big strike happen? Because it will eventually. Outside of the U.S. we are really hated by a lot of people. They assume that we all think exactly like whatever administration in power. To them, we are all a reflection of our government. So, people like Bin Laden, have no compunction about killing any of us. Kim Jong Il also scares the crappola out of me. No telling what is up that man's sleeve. We aren't as strong a power or as united as we were during WWII.

I guess all we can do in the end is wait and see if there is any press coverage or fallout on this. It is a done deal so I guess we shall see. I just wonder if the rest of the world will cover this differently than we will here.

[jillianleab]

I agree the memorial would be better served to recognize individuals or specific situations, but this way, the people in Tiananmen Square get memorialized, as do those who lived in small Russian towns. This way, no one is left out and you won't get a special interest group screaming "what about us?".

In my travels abroad I haven't experienced any negativity for being American, but maybe I'm traveling to the "right" places. Everyone has stereotypes about different nationalities, and in my experience, when someone with those stereotypes meets someone who doesn't fit it, their opinion changes just a bit. Now, people like bin Laden and Kim jong-Il whip their followers into a frenzy about hating the US, but that's talking about an extremest group, which is quite different than your average German or Frenchman. Kim jong-Il doesn't scare me because he doesn't have the capacity to strike the US, and if he strikes China they will go and kick the sh** out of him. Bin Laden, on the other hand... I think he's waiting for US troops to leave Iraq to make his move and take over the country, but that's just me. He's more of a worry than Jung-Il (to me anyway), but he hates Americans because we are infidels; this memorial won't mean much to him. Now, a memorial about the "victims of Islam" well, that's a whole different story!

Additionally, there is a memorial to the victims of slavery: Slavery Memorial
And I suppose our government thinks Crazy Horse does the Native Americans justice. I agree that those parties should have more prominent memorials, but alas, it means our government must admit wrongdoing! Never!!

I've enjoyed this debate too, and it does seem we have threadjacked a little. Oops.

[RubyPitbull]

Yes, I was aware of that Slavery Memorial. I don't know if the one on land here is the same one in D.C. that was the memorial to Washington's slaves. I need to look it up, it has been awhile. If I remember correctly it isn't much to write home about In my opinion. Yes, I was definitely thinking along the lines of a much bigger, and on a more prominent scale, than that (including Crazy Horse). So, we do agree about that. I understand what you are saying about one memorial for all victims. I still don't believe at this time in our history, it is a good idea to tempt fate. Maybe in another 25 years. Who knows. I think it is more important to recognize the people that have given their lives to building this country. I don't know if I agree that the government will never admit to wrongdoing in that department. I know at one time, it definitely was that way. But over the last 15 years or so, the climate has really changed. Let's face it, they have made passing the buck into a lower art form. So, it would be quite easy to blame all that on our forefathers. Ah, how I love our teflon men in D.C! They know exactly how to make nothing stick to 'em.

Yeah, maybe Jong il isn't such a big threat but I just don't know. I think that man is crazy. I hope China kicks his a$$. I put nothing past anyone anymore. I feel like the world has been turned upside down in the past 6 years.

Regarding other countries, I guess we travel in different circles. I have had many people, when they realize I am an American, initially make very rude comments to me about how we bully the world among many other accusations. They are usually taken aback when we get into a discussion. Most have said that they thought because we have voted Bush into office, all Americans are 100% behind him. I guess it comes back to what information they have available to them.

Well, I guess I will check back with you on June 12. We can compare notes on media coverage on that memorial. ;)

[jillianleab]

I've had people say, "You aren't what I expected an American to be like!" I've also had people give me a sneer or a comment about being American, but once a conversation gets started and they realize, "Oh, you mean your president makes decisions without asking every citizen's opinion and a whole HELL of a lot of people don't like/agree with him? Gee... maybe not all Americans are that bad!" We do get blamed for our administration, which sucks because we put the people in power, but it doesn't mean we support everything they do. It's not to often you find someone who is 100% behind Dubya on everything. There are some out there though...

You're right that sometimes the current govt blames the forefathers for things; recently some states have "officially apologized" for slavery. Those guys up in Washington sure like to pass the buck, as you said. Try living here - we get it ALL!

I'll be watching the news (and the threads) to see if there is any reference to the Communism Memorial. My guess is there will be a mention in the weekend section of the WP the day before, and a tiny recap the day after in the Style section. If it's a slow news day it might hit the airwaves. Guess we will just have to wait!

[asking]

Jillianleab said:

So perhaps I should have been more clear; China is NO LONGER communist.

I agree with Jillian. During U.S. prepartions for invading Iraq, the best performing stock market in the world was China's. To me that makes China a capitalist country (though not a democracy, obviously).
Just Asking