[Tuscany]

With that being said, the reason I question your locality on 9/11 is that I find it hard to understand that anyone that lived through that HELL can not understand why it is better to take the fight away from our soil. Iraq may not have been the best choice but it has caused the terrorist (ie the Insergency) to attack those that is the job to fight. Citizen should not be at the front line.

I think you have misunderstood Scott here. Nowhere did he state that he would rather have the war against terrorism fought on American soil. In fact I would think just the opposite. Especially since he was in the towers when they were attacked. I am sure that he would not want any other American citizen to have to go through what he went through.

I think what Scott is saying is that Bush should be more concerned about Afganistan then Iraq. Which I agree with him on. We should be attacking the people that attacked us. But now we are in Iraq and I fear that the outcome will be similar to NAM.

That being said, I will support my troops wherever they maybe. They are not at fault here. They go where they are told to go. And thank God for them because without them I would not be able to live in a country as wonderful as the US is.

[ScottGem]

Please specify which comment you are talking about when I used the Comment Feature.

Here's one from Post #2:
RetiredNavy disagrees: How, by reducing taxes and keeping job employment high.
Here's another from Post #3
RetiredNavy disagrees: Listen to someone from Canada where they have a failing medical system and 50% tax rate.

This is very intersting comment considering the entire thread is doing just that except with Bush. Many have accused Bush of lieing and are questioning veracity absent of proof. It is amazing how upset when people get when there actions are repeated against them by others.

With that being said, the reason I question your locality on 9/11 is that I find it hard to understand that anyone that lived through that HELL can not understand why it is better to take the fight away from our soil. Iraq may not have been the best choice but it has caused the terrorist (ie the Insergency) to attack those that is the job to fight. Citizen should not be at the front line.

The problem is that there IS evidence to support Bush's or at least his administration's lies. So questioning his veracity is reasonable.

As I said in an earlier post, I had no problem with and supported our actions in Afghanistan. That was a valid response to 9/11. Iraq wasn't and isn't.

I can understand how someone, especially with a military background ,would find it hard to understand how someone could experience 9/11 as I did and feel the way I do. But that still doesn't justify your calling me a liar. Which you still haven't apologized for.

I find it hard to respect the views of someone like that.

[excon]

Iraq may not have been the best choice but it has caused the terrorist (ie the Insergency) to attack those that is the job to fight.

Hello again, Navy:

According to you, Iraq wasn't a very good choice. But, apparently it doesn't make much difference, because (according to you) the objective wasn't to remove WMD's, but to get the terrorists to attack us.

Huh??

We could have invaded, let's say, Libya, and they would have attacked us there too. No? Why not there? What?? Afghanistan wasn't a good enough place to attack us?

No Sir, I don't know where you're coming from, but it's clear that you bought all the propaganda Bush fed you. Please don't insult me by calling it inside military information.

excon

[RetiredNavy]

OK, do I believe that our Government (including Bush, Congress, Senate and House of Representatives) have made mistakes about Iraq, the answer is "YES". The is more that lead to Iraq than just the belief of WMD, like invading Kuwait and then ignore the U.N. mass killing his own people, etc, etc. I seems that history was repeating itself, like Hitler. It does not matter that there were no WMD's found, what matters is that the majority of U.S. citizen, Congress, Senate, House of Representative, and Bush made a choice. My belief that we are doing what is the right for the World, the U.S. and the Iraqi people and that region.

Scott

I did not call you a liar, I said that I did not believe you. There is a significant difference between the two. If I called you a liar that should be based on fact, when one does not believe someone else statement, then it is based on opinion.

As fare as the disagreement, both statements are facts although the second on was a mixture of both fact and opinion. With that I did make a mistake. Live and learn.

For Bush administration lying, again is based on fact (Hard evidence) or is it based on opinions. Is there a possibility that lies have been told, definitely and I would not put it past any definitely. Even within this thread, I believe Bush has made some failing errors and not delivered what the people thought he would.

- The Prescription Drug reform, what a crock that will cost us more than the war will.

- Campaign Reform, another crock in that all it really does is allow those that make a career out of being a politicain stay in office longer.

And this list goes on, but I also believe he is human and makes mistakes like the rest of us. I would never what to be in his shoes of having to make the decision that he has too.

[Tuscany]

I am sorry RN but I have to respectfully disagree with you. The parents and the families of the service men and women would probably disagree too.

Oh and you left off one other reason for GWB to invade Iraq... he had to finish what his father couldn't. Of course it does not look like he will be able to finish it either...

[RetiredNavy]

It is difficult to respond to people that have a one track mind. The world is not a black and white solution. There is a lot of grey between the two. Iraq is one of those issue that fit into the grey area. Bush made a severs mistake by convincing the people that Iraq was necessary due to WMD's alone. I believe that if he had stated everything such as the U.N. violations, the mass killings of his own people, possibility of developing WMD (there is good evidence that he was), the increased opportunity to harbor terrorist (he had such a great issues with America that he would have), and funneling money to fund terrorist activties (good evidence of that too), then Bush would not have created the issue he has. I stated that to many before the war began that he need to give more than just WMD to the American people.

Also, if I was to believe in the so called Bush propaganda then I would say he has not been made any mistakes and that he was the best President we have had. I do not believe that and as one other post stated, compared to the other choices of the last election, he is the better choice.

Tuscany,

I have to disagree with you. There are some parents and family of the fallen solders that do not believe that we (the Military men) are there for a good cause, there are many/most that do. How many military families do you know to base you opinion? I know many, some have lost loved ones in the war zone. My sister just deployed there last week, and I have had several cousins there and I believe in them. Please remember, we are an all voluntary force, meaning we do not have to serve, we serve because we believe in our country. Even with the war, the services are not having issues in brave citizens joining.

We have to finish this war and leave a capable Iraqi government in place. If not, Iran could easily walk in and take over thus turning the situation into a more difficult one. They are a severe threat both with WMD's (nuc's) and they also have a significant military power. A conflict with them would be much more bloody than what we have today. Additionally, if that was to happen, do not complain when oil prices raise though the roof and terrorist attacks significantly increase. To day, we are in a Global Economy, what affect one region affects the whole world.

[Tuscany]

RN-
I think you miss understood me. I support the troops that are over there 100%. And how many do I know... just my 2 cousins, 3 friends that I graduated with, my mom's best friend's son, and countless former students. And that does not include the number of people that I know in the national guard.

I believe in every single one of them. I believe that they will try their best, that they will work hard, that they will do all that they can do to remain safe and fight for out country. And yes I am well aware that signing up for the military is voluntary. However where you are stationed is not.

[RetiredNavy]

Well that's not too hard. I think that most Canadians have more knowledge of foreign countries than most americans. :)?

For some reason, I agree. Maybe a little true.

You are correct. I misread your comment about north and south, my apologies.

Accepted! By the way, I just got back from Quebec City. Very lovely place with a great culture.

You sound very familiar, have you ever been on this site before?

Nope, new to this place. My wife was telling me about the site. She tweaked my interest, so here I am.

[Dr D]

I may be naïve, but I don't believe that this nation has ever had a President who took actions that he knew to be against the interests of the US and its people. The demonization and abject hatred that the Left has for GWB, make reasonable discussion of his policies difficult. Past Presidents have made grave mistakes from the war of 1812, to The bay of Pigs... and future Presidents will make more. The people who believe that GWB went to war to enrich his oil buddies and Hailburton; and who still cling to to the debunked conspiracy theories about 9/11, in my opinion have a tenuous grasp on reality.

[RetiredNavy]

I support the troops that are over there 100%.

Sorry being harsh, but from personal experiences and speaking for others serving. That term is a bunch of bull. Actions speak louder than words. If you believe in the troops, especially those going on there 3rd and 4th tours (which you cannot do that many in a single enlsitment) then those that us that term would trust what they (ther troops) feel is right. If the troops say they need to stay and finish the job, then those that support them would push the government to finish the job. If you supported the troops then you would not support the media that only presents the things that have gone wrong but only those that tell the good and the bad. The American people (including the Government) say they support the troops but there action say something different.

However where you are stationed is not.

Very true, but when you volunteer when people are fighting overseas should you think that you are not going to fight also.

I may be naive, but I don't believe that this nation has ever had a President who took actions that he knew to be against the interests of the US and its people. The demonization and abject hatred that the Left has for GWB, make reasonable discussion of his policies difficult. Past Presidents have made grave mistakes from the war of 1812, to The bay of Pigs...and future Presidents will make more. The people who believe that GWB went to war to enrich his oil buddies and Hailburton; and who still cling to to the debunked conspiracy theories about 9/11, in my opinion have a tenuous grasp on reality.

I do not believe you are naïve, that what I have been attempting to spread.

[ScottGem]

OK, do I believe that our Government (including Bush, Congress, Senate and House of Representatives) have made mistakes about Iraq, the answer is "YES". The is more that lead to Iraq than just the belief of WMD, like invading Kuwait and then ignore the U.N., mass killing his own people, etc, etc. I seems that history was repeating itself, like Hitler. It does not matter that there were no WMD's found, what matters is that the majority of U.S. citizen, Congress, Senate, House of Representative, and Bush made a choice. My belief that we are doing what is the right for the World, the U.S. and the Iraqi people and that region.

Had Bush Sr finished the job when the opportunity existed, I would have had no problem with that. Sadaam badly underestimated how the US and the Arab world would react to the invasion of Kuwait. He got his nose badly bloodied. But I think he also learned a lesson. I think the evidence shows that he was content to rule his little corner of the world and no more. I think he enjoyed thumbing his nose at the US and that was his undoing. But I don't think he presented a credible threat to the security of the US or the world after Desert Storm. This was my opinion before Dubya's big mistake and nothing that has happened has given me any reason to change that opinion.

Scott

I did not call you a liar, I said that I did not believe you. There is a significant difference between the two. If I called you a liar that should be based on fact, when one does not believe someone else statement, then it is based on opinion.

Sorry, but I don't see any difference between the two let alone a significant one. If you don't believe a statement someone made, then you believe they are not telling the truth which makes them a liar. Obviously it is your OPINION that I wasn't there, because you have absolutely no proof that I wasn't, nor any proof that I would lie about it. What's worse, you have made no attempt to back off on your opinion, even though you have no facts to support it.

Unfortunately, I have no way of proving it to you. I know what the truth is. I have to live with the memories and the consequences.

[Tuscany]

Sorry being harsh, but from personal experiences and speaking for others serving. That term is a bunch of bull. Actions speak louder than words. If you believe in the troops, especially those going on there 3rd and 4th tours (which you cannot do that many in a single enlsitment) then those that us that term would trust what they (ther troops) feel is right. If the troops say they need to stay and finish the job, then those that support them would push the government to finish the job. If you supported the troops then you would not support the media that only presents the things that have gone wrong but only those that tell the good and the bad. The American people (including the Government) say they support the troops but there action say something different.



Very true, but when you volunteer when people are fighting overseas should you think that you are not going to fight also.

Well now thanks so much for assuming that you know so much about me. Funny, that is exactly what you did to Scott too.

I do support the troops. I DO think that mainstream media does nothing but preach gloom and doom. Do not tell me who I support and who I don't. And since you don't know me you don't know what I have done to show support to the troops. But, since the best you can do is throw insults around... I am not surprised.

Oh and yes you can support the troops without supporting the government that puts them there.

[ordinaryguy]

What does President Bush believe?

Just for starters:

1. That he was chosen by God to be president.
   
2. That his obligation to "protect the American people" is more important than his oath to "protect and defend the Constitution".
   
3. That he is not obligated to obey laws he doesn't agree with.
   
4. That scientific results that don't support his policy preferences and political goals should be disregarded and supressed.
   
5. That he alone has the authority to declare any person to be an "unlawful enemy combatant" and to deprive that person of all legal avenues to challenge this designation or his indefinite imprisonment without charge.

[RetiredNavy]

I quess it boiles down to upbringing and culture. Here is a perfect example to me, excon profile say he is a CEO of a fortune 500 company and I challenged that considering his boasting about be arrested numerous times. He commented back stating that he ownes the company. Well, to be a Fortune 500 you have to be a publicly owned company. Fact verse opinion. My first statement was an opinion, however, I have the facts and I can say it is a lie. Fortune 500 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you where there than, I am so sorry that you where and I must apologize for my statement. I cannot even fathom the horror. Even, being all of the places that I have been and military conflicts that I have been in I have never been a part of a situtation like that, only present afterwards.

You are correct that you have know way to prove anything, the same as I do not when it comes to personal experiences or knowledge. After all, my words are just a bunch of trons transmitted around the world, like you. Opinions are just that opinions.

[excon]

Hello Retired Dude:

If a joke has to be explained, it looses it's punch. I guess I should have considered that some people aren't smart enough to get it. Ok, my bad.

excon

[RetiredNavy]

Well now thanks so much for assuming that you know so much about me. Funny, that is exactly what you did to Scott too.

As a matter of fact I do support the troops. I DO think that mainstream media does nothing but preach gloom and doom. Do not tell me who I support and who I don't. And since you don't know me you don't know what I have done to show support to the troops. But, since the best you can do is throw insults around...I am not surprised.

Oh and yes you can support the troops without supporting the government that puts them there.

I am sorry that you take it personally, but that qoute has become the buzz word of the year. Since you know so many military people, just ask them for there opinion on that qoute. I did not insult you, I told you that "us" in the military/ ex-military hate that term and that only actions can prove otherwise.

I think he enjoyed thumbing his nose at the US and that was his undoing.

I believe that this is the closest thing to a good rebutal to my opinion. I agree 100% with this comment but I also believe that he was threat, maybe not directly but indirectly.

[excon]

If you where there than, I am so sorry that you where and I must apologize for my statement. I cannot even fathom the horror. Even, being all of the places that I have been and military conflicts that I have been in I have never been a part of a situtation like that, only present afterwards.

Hello again:

Don't be sorry. I was proud to defend my country. The problem was that I wasn't defending my country at all. I was defending a failed policy. That didn't stop me from fighting like hell, and I didn't know it at the time anyway.

And, if it further eases your conscience, I did lie. My blood was spilled on the deck of the USS Robert K. Huntington, DD-781 - not in the dirt. It didn't hurt too badly, and I slept in my warm rack that night. Yeah, I got a purple heart. Big deal. Does that make you feel better?

excon

PS> By the way, last week my occupation was big band leader. I guess you wouldn't have gotten that one either.

[Tuscany]

Us in the military... hmmmm isn't it interesting that your screen name is Retired Navy.
Since you are not on the frontlines anymore how can you speak for those serving in Iraq? Have you been there in the last 9 months?

Have I... no. But then I don't pretend to speak for those who have.

[RetiredNavy]

Hello Retired Dude:

If a joke has to be explained, it looses it's punch. I guess I should have considered that some people aren't smart enough to get it. Ok, my bad.

excon

As ScottGem pointed out to me https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/feedbac...e-24951-4.html

Negative comments should be given under the following circumstances:
1) From another member when an answer is FACTUALLY wrong
2) From the asker if the advice turned out to be wrong

Negative comments should NOT be given when:
1) there is a difference of opinion not of fact
2) when a response has been added to the thread disagreeing with the opinion

Think before insulting an individual.

Us in the military....hmmmm isn't it interesting that your screen name is Retired Navy.
Since you are not on the frontlines anymore how can you speak for those serving in Iraq? Have you been there in the last 9 months?

Have I...no. But then I don't pretend to speak for those who have.

In the last 9 months no, I returned from the Middle East in November 2005. My sister, however is there today. A co-working that is an Actived Duty Marine just got back and is trying to change his assignment to go back. I did not mention that I still work heaviliy with the military. Another friend that was a GS there just got back a month ago. So, just because I am retired from the military does not mean that I am still not apart of the military.

So, I do believe that I am not pretending. I my not be there, but I am in a position that I have continuous interactions with those that have been and even that are there right now.

[excon]

Hello Navy:

I can argue as ridiculously as you can. I didn't give a negative comment. Those comments are when you push the rate this answer button. I didn't rate anything about you. I simply gave my opinion regarding your intellect. I'm entitled to my opinion aren't I?

excon