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    maji's Avatar
    maji Posts: 12, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Apr 16, 2005, 06:21 AM
    Tub Replacement
    Attached picture.

    I have gutted the bathroom and am installing an enameled steel tub on a slab(the original was cast iron). I test fitted the tub and drain assembly. The tub fits fine but the waste shoe for the drain hole is about an inch too low (the new tub bottom is higher than the old one). The drain assy is brass and fits onto a brass pipe coming out of the 12x12 access. I need to raise the existing pipe coming from the access hole about an inch and have tried by using a pvc compression connector but this raises it too much. Any ideas on what I can do with this. My next thought is to dig further down by the existing pipe and see what it connects to and maybe I can raise this pipe by the inch that is needed.

    Thanks for any suggestions

    Larry
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    maji's Avatar
    maji Posts: 12, Reputation: 1
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    #2

    Apr 17, 2005, 08:02 AM
    More info
    The top pipe looks to be copper and has threads on the outside. This is what the drain assy screws on to. The top pipe is 2 1/2" long and connected to the lower exposed pipe with what I have read is a lead and oakum joint. The lower exposed pipe is about three inches and connects to what is probably the trap. I can see water down there.

    I bought a 6" brass extension that screws into the bottom of the new drain assy. I want to remove the old 2 1/2" top pipe and replace with the 6".

    What is the best way to remove the lead and oakum joint?

    What should I use on the 6" pipe to ensure a water tight seal with the lower exposed pipe? Would a compression fitting work? This would allow for vertical movement and I would be able to attain the correct height for the waste shoe.

    I'm getting to the point where I want to go buy another cast iron tub with the lower drain hole :(
    tommytman's Avatar
    tommytman Posts: 153, Reputation: 2
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    #3

    Apr 17, 2005, 10:14 PM
    I'm having trouble making out that picture. Wait for Speedball. He will have an answer for you.

    Tom
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
    Eternal Plumber
     
    #4

    Apr 18, 2005, 08:19 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by maji
    The top pipe looks to be copper and has threads on the outside. This is what the drain assy screws on to. The top pipe is 2 1/2" long and connected to the lower exposed pipe with what I have read is a lead and oakum joint. The lower exposed pipe is about three inches and connects to what is probably the trap. I can see water down there.

    I bought a 6" brass extension that screws into the bottom of the new drain assy. I want to remove the old 2 1/2" top pipe and replace with the 6".

    What is the best way to remove the lead and oakum joint?

    What should I use on the 6" pipe to ensure a water tight seal with the lower exposed pipe? Would a compression fitting work? This would allow for vertical movement and I would be able to attain the correct height for the waste shoe.

    I'm getting to the point where I want to go buy another cast iron tub with the lower drain hole :(
    You're not going to be able to connect the tub by the method you describe. We connect the trap raiser to the tub drain by two ways. (1) The threaded brass nipple is threaded into the bottom of the brass tee first and connected to the trap raiser by a compression fitting on top of the trap raiser.
    (2) The trap raiser is copper and we slip the threaded brass nipple into it and solder the two together.
    Copper pipe is not threaded,(too soft) brass pipe is.
    You failed to tell us what the pipe was coming out of the trap and how it connects up, threads? Poured joint?
    Before I can advise I need to know, What material the bottom pipe is, how it connects to the trap, my guess is that the threads on the top of the raiser are half of a compression fitting, the other half being a compression nut and gasket, am I right?
    If this were my job I would dig down to where the raiser connects into the trap and if it were threaded I would thread in a Midland Bushing and solder in a 1 1/2" copper raiser and solder in a 1 1/2" compression fitting to pick up the tub drain. Sound like a plan? Tom
    maji's Avatar
    maji Posts: 12, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Apr 18, 2005, 04:55 PM
    The picture is showing two pipes that are connected about two inches from the top. Are you calling both of these the trap raiser?

    The top pipe is threaded and was screwed into the bottom of the old drain tee. I guess it must be brass. There wasn't any compression fitting connecting the bottom of the drain tee to the top pipe (I found that odd). It was just loosely screwed on.

    I don't know what kind of material the lower pipe is made of? I don't believe it to be copper or brass. :confused: But I'll see if I can scuff the surface and tell.

    There is a lip where the two pipes join, which runs all the way around. I don't think it is solder. I suppose I could take my torch to it and see. It looks more like either the bottom pipe was flared out or something was poured to connect the two exposed pipes. The lower pipes diameter is just a bit larger than the top pipe. I may be able to get a compression fitting on the lower part if I can get that lip off (and the upper pipe with it).

    Method 1 is how I planned to connect the drain tee to the trap raiser.

    My 12 x 12 access quickly went down to about a 4 x 4 area. There is more concrete and rebar than I plan on dealing with.

    I'll see if I can get that lip off, which is joining the top (threaded brass nipple) and bottom (I don't know what this is) pipes. Then use the longer brass nipple, screw it into the new brass drain tee and slip it in the bottom pipe. Connect the two with a compression fitting and connect to the tub. See any problems with this?

    Thanks for the replies.

    Larry
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #6

    Apr 21, 2005, 03:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by maji
    The picture is showing two pipes that are connected about two inches from the top. Are you calling both of these the trap raiser?

    The top pipe is threaded and was screwed into the bottom of the old drain tee. I guess it must be brass. There wasn't any compression fitting connecting the bottom of the drain tee to the top pipe (I found that odd). It was just loosely screwed on.

    I don't know what kind of material the lower pipe is made of? I don't believe it to be copper or brass. :confused: But I'll see if I can scuff the surface and tell.

    There is a lip where the two pipes join, which runs all the way around. I don't think it is solder. I suppose I could take my torch to it and see. It looks more like either the bottom pipe was flared out or something was poured to connect the two exposed pipes. The lower pipes diameter is just a bit larger than the top pipe. I may be able to get a compression fitting on the lower part if I can get that lip off (and the upper pipe with it).

    Method 1 is how I planned to connect the drain tee to the trap raiser.

    My 12 x 12 access quickly went down to about a 4 x 4 area. There is more concrete and rebar than I plan on dealing with.

    I'll see if I can get that lip off, which is joining the top (threaded brass nipple) and bottom (I don't know what this is) pipes. Then use the longer brass nipple, screw it into the new brass drain tee and slip it in the bottom pipe. Connect the two with a compression fitting and connect to the tub. See any problems with this?

    Thanks for the replies.

    Larry

    Hi Larry, It looks like the lower pipe is lead which was flared out and the tub brass tailpiece was set in it. The threaded brass tailpiece that screwed into the Brass tee from the tub drain was then wiped, (lead working term) or soldered into the flared lead stub up making the connection one piece. You're going to have to clear out all the old lead pipe and convert to PVC. You're not going to connect to the lead pipe. Let's hope that's the only thing made otta lead and you have a threaded cast iron trap you can install a PVC male adapter into. Dig down to the trap and tell me what it's made of.
    Good luck, Tom
    maji's Avatar
    maji Posts: 12, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Apr 22, 2005, 04:52 PM
    Procrastination
    Thanks for the reply and advice Tom. I am putting the tub off for a bit while I work on the electrical and drywall (except for the backer board in the tub area). Once I get all else done, I'll tackle the tub again.

    To get to the trap, it looks like I will have to bust up some of the slab (never done anything like that before). The house was built in the 70's. What material was popular for a drain system then. If the lower pipe is lead, why can't I try to connect to the lead pipe again? Difficult? Hazardous? against code?

    Seems as if the cost of a new cast iron tub (300) and not having to bust the slab and pour new concrete to change the drain pipe would be more quick and cheaper in the long run. Just looking at all options before I start pounding on the slab.

    There is a vent stack about a foot from the trap raiser. Is this cast iron?
    See attached pic. (Disregard termite damage, framing has been replaced)


    Thanks again.

    Larry
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    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #8

    Apr 23, 2005, 06:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by maji
    Thanks for the reply and advice Tom. I am putting the tub off for a bit while I work on the electrical and drywall (except for the backer board in the tub area). Once I get all else done, I'll tackle the tub again.

    To get to the trap, it looks like I will have to bust up some of the slab (never done anything like that before). The house was built in the 70's. What material was popular for a drain system then. If the lower pipe is lead, why can't I try to connect to the lead pipe again? Difficult?, Hazardous?, against code?

    Seems as if the cost of a new cast iron tub (300) and not having to bust the slab and pour new concrete to change the drain pipe would be quicker and cheaper in the long run. Just looking at all options before I start pounding on the slab.

    There is a vent stack about a foot from the trap raiser. Is this cast iron?
    See attached pic. (Disregard termite damage, framing has been replaced)


    Thanks again.

    Larry
    Good morning Larry,

    TO answer your question we installed cast iron in the 70's and that's exactly what's in the picture. My bet is that you have a cast iron trap. I'm hoping for a threaded end on the trap but it could just as well end in a bell. This is the first time I've ever seen a lead raiser before. Back then we used 1 1/2" galvanized pipe to connect the brass tailpiece.
    You ask, "
    If the lower pipe is lead, why can't I try to connect to the lead pipe again? Difficult? Hazardous? against code? "
    You would have to cut out the flare and brass tailpiece and that's the easy part. You would need lead working tools to make the flare, ( a wooden top) and then have the necessary skills to wipe in another brass tail piece. I don't know of any modern plumbers that even have lead working skills. In the areas that I have plumbed for the last 50 years, (Beloit, Wisconsin and The West Coast Of Florida) We haven't used lead in our new construction. I'm hoping that when you bare the trap you will be able to
    thread in a 1 1/2" PVC adapter and convert to PVC. But if you find a bell then we may have to caulk in a galvanized raiser. Not to worry. No biggie!
    Let me know when you're ready to tackle the tub and send me a picture of the trap when you dig down to it. Good luck, Tom
    maji's Avatar
    maji Posts: 12, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    May 24, 2005, 07:03 PM
    Slow as a turtle but making progress...
    And my wife got tired of waiting for me to get to the tub. We called a plumber to set it. Hated to pay that, but oh well.

    I've got the walls up and painted, the floor down, door in, vanity and sink top placed, linen closet mounted, and a lighted vent/fan installed.

    I went to dry fit the toilet today to make sure I had enough room for the tank (11" from flange bolts to finished wall). It just fits. However, I noticed a couple of things that I don't think are right with the toilet.

    First I noticed what appears to be a crack in the bowl where the tank sits. Not sure if it is supposed to be this way or not. (see picture) The area in question is the middle left. I'm thinking when it was poured or fired, it just didn't make a clean fit. Any opinions?

    Secondly, what is this hole in the back of the bowl for? Is it a secret "p" hole? Or is this just a hole for a holding rod or something during manufacture? I haven't seen this on any other toilet (not that I'm in the habit of looking at toilets really close).

    One last thing, one of the mounting holes in the tank does not line up with the mounting hole in the bowl. I could probably enlarge the hole some to make them line up... but I shouldn't have to... it's a new toilet.

    Any opinions on the crack and hole would be appreciated. I just don't want to install it and find water going everywhere.

    Thanks Larry
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    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #10

    May 25, 2005, 12:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by maji
    and my wife got tired of waiting for me to get to the tub. We called a plumber to set it. Hated to pay that, but oh well.

    I've got the walls up and painted, the floor down, door in, vanity and sink top placed, linen closet mounted, and a lighted vent/fan installed.

    I went to dry fit the toilet today to make sure I had enough room for the tank (11" from flange bolts to finished wall). It just fits. However, I noticed a couple of things that I don't think are right with the toilet.

    First I noticed what appears to be a crack in the bowl where the tank sits. Not sure if it is supposed to be this way or not. (see picture) The area in question is the middle left. I'm thinking when it was poured or fired, it just didn't make a clean fit. Any opinions?

    Secondly, what is this hole in the back of the bowl for? Is it a secret "p" hole? Or is this just a hole for a holding rod or something during manufacture? I haven't seen this on any other toilet (not that I'm in the habit of looking at toilets really close).

    One last thing, one of the mounting holes in the tank does not line up with the mounting hole in the bowl. I could probably enlarge the hole some to make them line up...but I shouldn't have to...it's a new toilet.

    Any opinions on the crack and hole would be appreciated. I just don't want to install it and find water going everywhere.

    Thanks Larry
    Hi Larry,

    Turn the toilet back in. You got a faulty one. You can't just enlarge a hole in a china tank nor should you have to. Sometimes in casting the bowl a "blowhole" is produced. Instead of scraping the bowl the manufacture will run a porcelain patch to cover the defect. Looks like they let one slip through. Was this a "close out" or a "bargain bowl"? At any rate pick up another toilet. You have cast iron plumbing ln your home. Did the plumber find a cast iron "P" trap when he tied in the tub? Just curious. Cheers, Tom
    maji's Avatar
    maji Posts: 12, Reputation: 1
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    #11

    May 26, 2005, 12:40 PM
    Thanks for the insight...
    On the toilet. When I dry fit it, it just didn't look right sitting there. It looked like it was slanted. So I took my level and checked the floor and it was level as could be. The toilet was sitting on the floor level but the top rim was higher on one side, along with the problems with the crack and hole, and the tank holes not lining up. It was an American Standard complete set. Not on discount or close out but not real expensive either ($100). I returned it and purchased a Kohler for $122. It looks great (as far as toilets go) sitting there. Level all the way around and no leaks. :D

    As far at the tub... well, the plumber didn't go down to the trap. He cut the lead pipe out and converted to PVC, using some adapter. He did a pressure test with the tub full of water and no leaks were detected. Filled the hole with dirt and covered it with tar.

    The only thing left to do now is install the tile around the tub walls, and put the tub fixtures on.

    I really appreciate all the advice and insight you and this site have given me. Thanks a million.

    Larry

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