[Starman]

Want to solve the so called illegal Hispanic immigration problem? Crack down on those who are gladly breaking their own country's law by doing the hiring. As long as there are AMERICANS who value profit more than they value their own country's laws and continue to illegally hire people they aren't supposed to because it's illegal to do so, the situation will continue.

By the way, those doing the illegal hiring aren't threatened with starvation if they obey our cherished country's laws by not hiring illegally. They simply won't make as much of a profit as they are doing by illegal hiring. But since they are unwilling to make less while they can make much more by simply ignoring their beloved country's laws and hiring illegally they will continue to hire illegally confident that the full blame for the situation will be placed conveniently on the backs of those being illegally hired.

BTW
Weird! You don't see the self-appointed anti-immigration crusader Dobbs becoming irate against these who have a duty as Americans to abide by the country's laws but who shamelessly prefer to do business illegally for a profit.

[gazelleintense]

Shutting the borders down would be nice too but bush won't do that for some reason. Even after 9.11

[Starman]

shutting the borders down would be nice too but bush won't do that for some reason. even after 9.11

Do you think that they would be trying to get across if the American employers weren't willing able and ready to illegally hire them? Why do you seem reluctant to hold them accountable?

[Fr_Chuck]

This is not a "party" issue and Bush can do little about it, if congress does not want to. The simple fact is that both parties don't want to stop it, They want the illegals votes for their party, so either party taking a side on this against them would hurt them in the elections, and with the two parites split fairly well down the middle, taking a side against would fairly well doom them in the next election.

[Starman]

The question is why so much ire and outright hatred toward those who come here to work because they do so illegally while we smile complacently at the supposedly fine upright citizens who illegally hire them. I see those hiring them more criminal than those being hired since they aren't really under any duress to do so but do so simply because they are materialistic hogs.

As for the perpetually complaining Dobbs, can't stomach how our government is running the USA then maybe he should seriously consider getting on a boat and going back to Ireland.

BTW

I consider indiscriminately firing rubber bullets at point blank range into a crowd which includes both children and infants criminal behavior. An activity in which even African American police officers, whom one would expect to know better in view of their history, were enthusiastically participating just recently in California.

[CaptainRich]

Hiring illegals is already against the law. We have to enforce the law. Why aren't employers being held accountable?
This is a huge country and there is no way to "shut the border" That would be like trying to stop the incoming tide. Part of the problem is the illegals don't pay their way and don't try to adjust to their new host country. They'll bleed the system as users until the whole beautiful thing they came here for collapses on our fool heads. If you feel the same as I, you're going to love this link:
Pledge Of Allegiance To The Flag Of The United States Of America
Copy and paste this and turn up you speakers...

[excon]

Hello Star:

You don't quite understand things. It's obvious you've never been in business for yourself.

What's a small business owner to do when the help has all the necessary documents? Should he take the documents to a lab? Should he question the help BETTER? Should he have a policy of no brown skinned people?

Or, should he just put them to work?

Immigration (or illegal immigration) should be taken care of at the border, not at the workplace.

excon

[excon]

Part of the problem is the illegal's don't pay there way and don't try to adjust to their new host country.

Hello again:

Yes, I have more to say.

Actually, illegals pay plenty. Federal income tax is withheld from their paychecks. But, being illegal, they can't file for a refund like you can. Even though they may not owe tax, unlike you, they pay it anyway. Plus, they pay social security taxes, but they'll never collect social security. They pay unemployment taxes, but they'll never collect unemployment. No Siree, they pay plenty.

They'll bleed the system as users until the whole beautiful thing they came here for collapses

I don't think there's a “they”. I just think there's a guy blowing leafs across the street, or washing dishes at my local restaurant. They earn their money and send what they can to feed their families. Isn't that what you do? What's bleeding about that? Because they send their money out of the country? When you buy a Toyota, you're sending your money out of the country.

I think all of you, for the most part, have been listening to entirely too much talk radio.

excon

[Fr_Chuck]

While I am very pro legal, again there is not a they, you can't tell legal from illegal by just looking at them. And which of us would not do what ever it took to feed our families and get ahead. The businsess person who fudges on his resume about his jobs or education, or perhaps does not list a job he was fired from, all fraud in some way to get that better job for his family.

But checking the ID is a real problem, in the US there is no national ID card, no way sure fire way to know peoplel are who they say they are.
As a police officer we got a new book every year, just on drivers license, each state has a drivers license and a official state ID card, do you know what the state two state over looks like ? In some states there is a older card and a newer card. With that then there are birth certificates, quess how many types there are over the last 50 years. And of course there are other Id's allowed on the I9 form to check idenity.
One report I read said there were over 1000 various types of approved ID's looking at all of the states varoius types.

And to be honest many are good ( and a lot are not) and as a officer often we could not tell they were fake till we tried to run their numbers though our data base. Which of course those employing these people don't have access to.

And we will pick on the leaf blower or the lawn mower, if you hire a contractor to do work at your property, you don't check citizenship, actually I don't even think you are allowed to.

And the employer can be sued by the person they are trying to hire if they ask the wrong questions about citizenship

But the only way to ever stop it, is to secure the borders, as long as the US government is not taking this serouis, it will continue

[Auttajasi]

I spoke with a friend that works in the banking industry about this very issue. He said that the transferring of funds to Mexico is a huge business; billions every year. This makes it difficult for politicians to make a decision about securing the borders because there are so many people benefiting from the open borders. I do agree though, that you have to fix the problem at the border.
You can kill cockroaches all day in your home, but until you find the source and stop them there, they will just keep coming. This sounds bad, but please don't interpret this as a comparison between illegal immigrants and cockroaches. Just an example.
I am very pro immigration. I don't care where they immigrate from. Immigration is the very foundation of our country. The problem I have with illegal immigration is that by not properly enforcing it, we are rewarding bad or illegal behavior. By definition, reinforcing a particular behavior makes it more likely that the behavior or a similar one will occur again.

[excon]

Hello again,

Indeed, I have more.

Let me ask you a question. Let's say you live in Indiana. Jobs are scarce in Indiana. In fact there are NO jobs in Indiana. You are forced to collect cans to feed your family.

In Illinois, however, there are jobs. But, Illinois want to protect its workers, so they made it illegal for anyone to come into their state.

You walk up to the border. You look across and see a help wanted sign over there. Your children are hungry. What?? You're going to sit there??

excon

[CaptainRich]

I don't listen to talk radio, at all. But I do live in Florida. And if you don't blink, you'll see migrant workers every day! A lot of local companies that market my fruit , vegetable and flowers hire and pay casual labor and pay them under the table. Don't have any qualification to talk about the construction aspect. And nobody pays their taxes on the roadside. And if you want to talk about how they play by the rules: a couple of years ago, I was rear-ended by a Mexican national (I never saw any papers but he couln't speak a word of English) with an international driver's license (he's supposed to know the rules). The car he was driving was un-insured ( did I mention I live in Florida, where if I didn't have insurance my plates would be taken, my license would be suspended and I'd be fined ), the plates didn't match tha car, the tires on his car were bald, and if he hadn't hit me, he'd have hit the stopped schoolbus I was sitting still behind. It cost me nearly fifteen hundred bucks three weeks before Christmas!

[Starman]

Hiring illegals is already against the law. We have to enforce the law. Why aren't employers being held accountable?!
This is a huge country and there is no way to "shut the border" That would be like trying to stop the incoming tide. Part of the problem is the illegals don't pay their way and don't try to adjust to their new host country. They'll bleed the system as users until the whole beautiful thing they came here for collapses on our fool heads. If you feel the same as I, you're gonna love this link:
Pledge Of Allegiance To The Flag Of The United States Of America
copy and paste this and turn up you speakers...

America isn't known as a country that just sits on its hands and takes it on the chin. If the danger to the nation's economy and social stability were serious as you describe the situation would have long ago been pronounced a national emergency and a forceful and decisive reaction would have immediately been taken. Example?

Look at what we did to the Japanese Americans when we considered them a serious threat. Put them all in concentration camps. Something for which our government has apologized in full contradiction to Dobbs' statement that our country has never done anything for which it needs to apologize. Of course if we take everything Dobbs
Says as true we'd have to believe that our country is being run by a group of imbeciles
Making mindless decisions. But anyone with a basic knowledge on how the executive and legislative branches of our government work knows that his idea mindless decision-making just doesn't mesh with the reality. The president, for example is advised by economists and he masks his decisions only after carefully weighing the pros and cons. So his decisions are far from being mindless
Regardless of what Dobbs says.


In view of this, the government's reluctance to come down hard on American employers who are breaking the law by criminally hiring illegally seems to indicate that the cost/benefits of the past and present immigration from Mexico aren't as devastatingly dangerous to warrant immediate crackdown on the illegal hiring employers. Otherwise the government would have done so long ago in order to protect our cherished way of life from being devastated by the materialistic illegal hiring practices of its supposedly law-abiding citizens.

[excon]

Hello Stardude:

What am I - chopped liver?? Who are you talking to? I'm standing right here telling you that you're all wet, and you pretend that I'm not here.

Whokee dokee.

excon

PS> You do know that other people can read this...

[CaptainRich]

Yes, Starman, this country doesn't sit on her hand or bark at her own feet, for that matter. But it has to have been a long process for my FEDERAL credit UNION to ask me at the ATM if I can speak ENGLISH!!
Did I offend anyone?

[CaptainRich]

excon said: "Your personal experiences aren't a national issue." He's right to say mine aren't, individually, but as a nation, the we comes out when we speak about it. Does excon suggest the impact from the numerous issues we've discussed is acceptable? Collectively? What is your measuring stick?

[excon]

Hello again, Captain:

Immigration at the border is broken. I don't think we disagree there. That's why we have people pouring over. It doesn't work. It needs to be fixed. Right now we can't tell a dish washer from a suicide bomber. That's not good for us.

The problem is a poor Mexican has to pay thousands and wait around 5 years to legally cross the border. It might as well be millions and 20 years. In the real world, it's not going to happen. However, if we made it cost maybe $100, and shortened the wait to, say 30 days, I think immigration will be fixed. With legal workers coming through the legal ports of entry, we can assume that the people illegally crossing our border ARE real bad guys. That IS good for us.

I don't think Mexicans want to break the law for the sake of breaking it. They just want to feed their family. My whole point in this discussion is to point the finger where it belongs – at the government! Congress didn't do anything for 20 years. The broken system we have is the result. The system is the bad guy. The illegal's are not. In fact, a case could be made for them being victims too.

Indeed, I think I made that case.

excon

[AW805]

However they are coming here and that fact is they are breaking laws. If they can't get a job, they steal or sell drugs, drive without a license, no insurance, etc. If there are no repercussions then what do they have to lose. The US is way to lenient. We just send them back so they come back here and do it all over again. The social system is breaking us. It is the depleting of the middle class to take care of the poor and uneducated.

This country needs to come down on employers who are hiring illegals. What the heck? If I lie on my job application, I get fired. Why aren't employers following the law?

[Auttajasi]

Tony Blair, when asked why he believes in America so much, said, "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at ... how many want in ... and how many want to get out."

I am flattered that America is a place where so many people want to move to. This may be the problem. Like any 'product,' when in low demand, the price goes down; when in high demand, the price goes up. Looking at the United States like a 'product' wanted for consumption, American values, freedoms and culture are in high demand right now (and apparently Mexico is in low demand).

Think of it!! People are breaking laws trying to get into our country!! How many other countries can you say that about? We are who we are because of immigration. People assume that because we want to close the borders to illegal immigrants that we are anti-Mexican. This isn't the case. I want to close the borders to illegal immigration so that breaking the law isn't the first thing they do when crossing the border.
I would rather hand them a welcome kit, an American flag to hang in their window, and say "good luck with however you decide to contribute to our great country."
Let's close our borders to illegal immigration, and relax our current immigration policies. When a product is in high demand, to become more profitable, you have to make more 'product' (citizenship) available. I think if we make it easier and more profitable to succeed here, people will be less likely to turn to alternative ways of earning money.

You are all right.
-close the borders to illegal immigration
-hold employers accountable
-reward those that enter the country legally
-pressure the govt. for reform

Inscription on the Statue of Liberty:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

[Fr_Chuck]

You know it is easy to talk about "them" but when you take it to a single family. Lets say the guy who mows yards, he also washes dishes in the morning, and washes cars on the weekend, he works hard and lives with two families in a run down trailer that some landlord charges triple rent on. He works the three job, one on a paycheck using a fake social security, so he does not get to file any 1040 and never gets that refund in April like the rest of us do.

He still has a sister and mom and dad in mexio who he sends 1/2 of his money to, to try and help pay for the man who helped his family get here and to help his sick mom. There kids are tired because they also help.
They get robbed every now and then but can't call the police because they are illegal and scared they will get arrested.

We all want them to be law obeying citizens and we all want the border to be closed, but when you sit across from them in church, when you teach their kids in Sunday school , they are only wanting to do what is good for their family and they know that although it is "illegal" it is not inforced and that they will not get into any real trouble except for being sent back.

It is easy to hate "them" but hard to be against George or Pete that tells you a joke at the 7-11 or mows your yard on saturdays or perhaps eats with you at the church pot luck.

Can you pack up someone you know and like because they are doing what they can to give their family the same dream you and I have.

I am not saying it is right, I am not saying we should not shut the border, but when you start puttng faces on those people, they are not horrible killers they are normally family people who love their kids, wives and want to do what is right.