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Icare · Apr 23, 2007, 04:32 PM

I am writing this in regards to my husband, this does not concern me at all legally.
My mother in law has her 48 year old son who has a history of DUI's, and bad judgements, and does not work a "regular" job, as executor of her will. This lady is pretty wealthy, and has gone to an estate lawyer to make a "bloodline" will,and a corporation (?) which include her 5 children,to take care of her funds, and properties after she dies.

There are 5 children. My husband is totally out of the loop, and she will not give him any info concerning property she just sold, or any info concerning her estate. He is probably the only child who is not circling like a vulture waiting for her to leave Earth.

My husband thinks she is being brainwashed by the alcoholic son who resides with her.
If things are being improperly handled, when she does depart this Earth, can a will be contested? If it is indeed a corporation, does he have any right to info?

He has a feeling this son who lives with her is embezzeling her money, and withdrawing money with her ATM card without her knowledge. She is 84. Heaven knows you cannot say anything bad about the son who lives with her, she would never believe it.

Thank you,

RichardBondMan · Apr 23, 2007, 05:42 PM

If she was legally competent at the time the willl was drawn, I doubt a contest of the will would be successful. If she was not coerced into signing the will, then any contest on the will will also probably not be successful. I think you have your terminology as to "will" and "corporation" confused. A Last Will & Testament is a legal document that is drawn by someone prior to their death and specifies how certain things will occur after death. For example, who will be the executor, the person charged with gathering all estate assets and dispersing those assets per the deceased wishes in the will. For a young person, it can also specify who will take charge of minor children. A corporation is a legal entity formed under the laws of a State and has a legal purpose for it's existence. For example, it can be a for profit enterprise engaged in, for example, the business of selling used cars or whatever. It can also be for a non profit organization whose goal is to raise money for a cause or to manage property or various other reasons. I am confused why you mentinoed the word "corporation" in your question ? You mentioned that she had seen an attorney to make a "bloodline" will, etc, to manage her funds and properties after she dies. Normally, a deceased person's properites and funds are liquidated or sold or cased in so to speak wihin a fairly short period so the cash from the estate can be dispersed to the heirs in the will. A good example would be a piece of property that suddenly five surving children inherit, none of the five want or need the home and it is sold and the proceeds divided among the heirs or children. Sometimes, it's not in the best interest of the estate to sell funds or real estate that is currently under say for example, a long term lease or that might incur a severe penalty if sold or otherwise surrendered before a certain time. In that event, the executor is charged with managing that property or real estate until such time as it can be sold and funds dispersed to the heirs. Hope this info helps but looks as though you husband is "out of the loop" as you said. He might want to seek the advice of an attorney to make sure there is nothing that can be done.

Icare · Apr 24, 2007, 07:00 AM

Thank you for your reply.

The Estate Attorney, well known in these parts of Ohio, prepared this Corporation for her and the family. Maybe it is for tax purposes, I don't know, but there definitely is a named Corporation that was made. Like I said, although her finances are in disarray right now, she is a wealthy lady.
My husband is just worried that if, or when she should pass on, he will have no choice in what happens to her property. The son living with her, talks about making a housing development out of it, etc. which upsets my husband, because that's not what he would want... so, the question is... will my husband and the other siblings have any say in what does occur after she departs? My husband would like it to be a joint decision, not just the sole decision of an alcoholic, whose integrity is questionable to say the least.

Thank you,

ScottGem · Apr 24, 2007, 07:26 AM

I have never heard of a "corporation" being setup for an estate. I think your husband and his siblings need to bring their concerns to the estate lawyer and have him explain what protections he has setup.

Icare · Apr 24, 2007, 08:44 AM

That is a big part of the issue. My husband feels he does not have the support of his siblings, except one, and that one, in no way will buck the system to find out what is going on. What reasons can there be for setting up a Corporation? Does it have something to do with the division of the estate when she dies? Supposedly all five children are part of this "Corporation" Maybe we need an estate lawyer to answer this corporation thing?

Good grief, although this is none of my business, it seems like it's a mess.

Thank you

ScottGem · Apr 24, 2007, 08:54 AM

A corporation is simply a separate legal entity set up for a specific business purpose. That's why I question this. Depending upon the nature of the mother's assets, I don't understand how setting up a corporation does anything. A trust yes, but not a corporation. Which leads me to wonder whether you (or your husband) is misunderstanding something.

A corporation has stockholders who are the owners of the corporation. If a corp was actually set up, then your husband needs to have gotten a "stock" certificate or notice of how many shares he has.

If the siblings won't go, then let your husband just go, simply asking for an explanation.

Icare · Apr 24, 2007, 04:21 PM

Well, obviously, someone has this mixed up. I was under the assumption she set up a corporation, it was given a name, but maybe it's some kind of a trust?
Thank you for your answers, I appreciate them all.

I do believe nothing can be done, because she will not even broach the subject with my husband, and tells him they will all be taken care of when she "goes" (not that we're overly concerned with that aspect, just the mismanagement of my MIL's money)

Things happen for a reason. I'm just very happy he wasn't named as executor. Because it's going to be a big huge mess.

Thank you again.

4bluebird1 · May 23, 2007, 10:32 AM

She may have set up a trust which list the 5 children as co-trustees of the Estate when she passes and this may have been misrepresented as a corporation. The Estate Laws in Ohio are very bad as I know my husband is himself dealing with this same type of situation which was also going on prior to his mothers death last August 2006, we tried to get an attorney to help get this matter checked into before her death and all were unwilling because she could possibly disinherit him. It has gotten even worse after her passing because she had a will with no assets listed it was called a pour over will which put the unlisted assets into her trust and she had listed property to be distributed to each of her 3 children (co-trustees) who did not get along before her death and will never get along after her death. No all of her wishes have been followed and the Ohio Probate Court and the attorneys are not ensuring that her wishes are followed so if its bad now count on it getting worse. We also reside in Ohio contact me if you wish for additional details. Attorneys can be expensive already spent $5,000 and still no answers and court accounts dead lines have none been met.

Icare · May 23, 2007, 12:04 PM

Okay inept BIL has just been picked up on his 4th DUI charge, and she writes to the judge, and tells him she needs him to give her, her medication, and he gets off... (that's what she did last time, anyway... )

Or he pays a probable $10,000 fine, which she'll pay.
Jeez, this is aggravating!

Icare · May 23, 2007, 12:08 PM

Bluebird,
She retained this laywer for $15,000, and had a bloodline will created, so it will not go into probate. (and this corporation, or estate thing)
She has A lot of property, but inept now drunken son, is handling it and making some of the properties, which are rentals into LEASE to buy. What happens after she passes? My husband is already 57, and not in good health, and he doesn't want to wait for a lease to buy... it's just a shame that she chose the son who is least educated, to handle all of this...

4bluebird1 · May 24, 2007, 10:17 AM

My understanding is that it will still be governed by the probate court and this is what we are also finding out right now with my deceased mother in laws estate which was put in a living trust and was to be distributed to the heirs when she passed according to the trust but there was also a will (even though the will contained no assests) there will still be bills due which must be paid, the will is called a pour over will which means that everything is to be transferred to the trust that may have been overlooked or just plain neglected to be put in the trust (this is how it is supposed to be done in a perfect world) which as you and I both are finding out when it comes to greedy siblings the world will never be perfect. It will have to go to probate court for that, and if you find errors with the executor the entire estate will be pulled into the probate court to be monitored, this is what we are in the middle of right now. If this is what is happening before her death it will only get worse after her death, this is I am telling you from experience. You and your husband should check about seeing an attorney who deals with Elder Laws before it goes any further just so you know what is going on, which we had. Is she competent in her decision? Is the attorney who is handling her affairs one she wanted or one that her son wanted her to use? My mother in law owned 200 acres of farm land with 3 houses and she had 3 children. She left one house and land to each child but her only son my husband is still waiting to get access to his house but both girls are already doing what they want with theirs and then some, property which she left for him has disappeared. He was not even permitted due to this same type of behavior from the sisters to be a part of the funeral arrangements and burial of his mother, he was also informed she had passed away from a phone call and message that was tell him if you feel he needs to know. Property the court order them to release to him they are now demanding him to give it back but will not do it through the court and judge. So get ready for a nightmare.

somesaltysea · Nov 11, 2007, 08:13 AM

Main question that needs answering is whether Laws to Protect the Elderly have been broken. Big part of that is Undue Influence exercised over elderly. This is huge because any transfer of assets that benefits one or some heirs to the detriment of other heirs can be challenged. For there not to be Undue Influence in such transaction(s), any transactions for sales or tranfers of assets prior to death must be initiated by the elderly person and not prompted by a benefactor. Any sales or transfers of assets prior to death must show the transaction was done for the benefit of the elderly person. Elderly can be made to fear abandonment or neglect and influenced to do things they would rather not do but feel necessary to do for self preservation. Preying on the Elderly in this country is a much bigger problem many realize because most is done by the 'nicest' people with the most pleasing personalities. Believe your best bet is having property records searched for transfers from you MIL. If to a corporation or trust then ownership/terms of corp/trust should be obtainable. BIL drinking problem should not be hard to document that would show motive for Undue Influence/Financial Abuse Of An Elderly Person.

JudyKayTee · Nov 11, 2007, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by somesaltysea

Main question that needs answering is whether Laws to Protect the Elderly have been broken. Big part of that is Undue Influence exercised over elderly. This is huge because any transfer of assets that benefits one or some heirs to the detriment of other heirs can be challenged. For there not to be Undue Influence in such transaction(s), any transactions for sales or tranfers of assets prior to death must be initiated by the elderly person and not prompted by a benefactor. Any sales or transfers of assets prior to death must show the transaction was done for the benefit of the elderly person. Elderly can be made to fear abandonment or neglect and influenced to do things they would rather not do but feel necessary to do for self preservation. Preying on the Elderly in this country is a much bigger problem many realize because most is done by the 'nicest' people with the most pleasing personalities. Believe your best bet is having property records searched for transfers from you MIL. If to a corporation or trust then ownership/terms of corp/trust should be obtainable. BIL drinking problem should not be hard to document that would show motive for Undue Influence/Financial Abuse Of An Elderly Person.

It is very difficult, almost impossible, to prove undue influence without a Physician who will testify that the elderly person was susceptible to such influence - the fact that the mother (in this case) may or may not choose to make gifts to some children and not others (referring to searching property records) does not prove undue influence. Unfortunately in families sometimes parents favor one child over another and the law most definitely does NOT require that all things be made equal.

And, yes, Wills can be challenged at great expense to everyone but they are difficult to overturn and/or set aside. Assuming the mother's mind is clear and the Attorney is competent she explained the family dynamics, the Attorney understood them and the Will, corporation, trust, whatever is at play here, reflects her wishes.

Inheriting from your parents in equal shares or inheriting anything at all is not a legal right.

Icare · Nov 11, 2007, 08:51 AM

Thank you for your replies.
BIL just had 4th DUI, and yet everything remains the same.

I believe one issue at hand here is, her oldest son, which is my husband, hasn't any way to ensure that she is being scammed by the other son, who lives with her.

(We are not worrried about equalities here, we agree people can do what they want with their earned money, as being a child doesn't give you any right to an inheritance.)

The original issue was: My husband was told he was part of a "corporation", and did not receive any paperwork regarding that from the estate lawyer. And if all 5 siblings are part of this "Corporation" who calls the shots when decsions need to be made?
We have not contacted the Estate lawyer. Will the lawyer even give us info when it's his mothers estate that is the issue?

And do you voice your concerns to the lawyer concerning the excecutor?

Sorry, kind of scattered this a.m.

Diane

JudyKayTee · Nov 11, 2007, 10:19 AM

[QUOTE=Icare]Thank you for your replies.
BIL just had 4th DUI, and yet everything remains the same.

I believe one issue at hand here is, her oldest son, which is my husband, hasn't any way to ensure that she is being scammed by the other son, who lives with her.

(We are not worried about equalities here, we agree people can do what they want with their earned money, as being a child doesn't give you any right to an inheritance.)

The original issue was: My husband was told he was part of a "corporation", and did not receive any paperwork regarding that from the estate lawyer. And if all 5 siblings are part of this "Corporation" who calls the shots when decisions need to be made?
We have not contacted the Estate lawyer. Will the lawyer even give us info when it's his mothers estate that is the issue?

And do you voice your concerns to the lawyer concerning the executor?

Sorry, kind of scattered this a.m.

Unless your husband can meet the burden of proof - involving a Physician, as I wrote earlier - I don't think he can prove she is or isn't being scammed.

As far as a corporation - I don't know what State you are in but corporations must file at the State level and that is public record, assuming you know the name of the corporation. Who calls the shots? Depends on the corporate set up. If your husband believes there is a corporation and he is a named Officer, shareholder, stockholder - then contact the Attorney and tell him you believe your husband is entitled to documentation. In some States shareholders in a corporation are legally responsible for the debts of the corporation and I'd make very sure that is not the case here when you aren't sure what is happening - again, the whole "corporation" idea is very strange to me. Don't know how a corporation could be set up naming your husband in some regard without his consent and knowledge - who is paying the taxes on the corporation?

And, no, the estate lawyer probably will not give you any information - you are not the client. And you can write the lawyer expressing your concerns but, quite frankly, your mother in law is his client and so what you have to say is of little value to the Attorney. In most States the Attorney must ascertain that the person making after death arrangements is of sound mind and he is not going to contradict himself now.

Can you explain your concern here if it is not about equity in distribution?

I have investigated several of these matters including speaking to family members, neighbors, attempting to prove interference or undue influence... and it's almost impossible and 99% of the time the proof does not stand up to scrutiny. I've seen family members literally call each other names for months and months and the Will still stands.

Quite frankly, if there is one ounce of bad blood between family members it looks like a vendetta.

somesaltysea · Nov 11, 2007, 10:40 AM

JudyKayTee - Have to disagree with you about proving Undue Influence. It has nothing to do with the mental health/competency of the elderly person. It has to do with protection against those who prey on the elderly because the cost of an Elderly's Person care is an unknown quantity and need all their assets to have good medical care. For any transaction to be void of Undue Influence, it must be proven that it was the elderly person's request to do so and not prompted by the receiving party. Also, it is the obligation of the receiving party to show that it was to the benefit Elderly Person to enter/complete the transaction.

{personal attack edited out-<>}

Icare · Nov 11, 2007, 10:44 AM

"Can you explain your concern here if it is not about equity in distribution?"

The concern comes from the original request of my deceased FIL, who wanted my husband named as executor, and told him so, but managed to die unexpectedly before he had the paperwork finalized.

Therefore my husband feels some responsibility towards the estate, I suppose. We are retired now 3 years, and are financially secure. So, I guess it's just something for him to think about? Although as you realize a few extra bucks, can never hurt. :)
And most likely it's somewhat aggravating seeing an alcoholic handing affairs. So, he could possibly feel disloyal to his fathers memory, but MIL feels sympathetic to BIL, so such is life. His father worked his entire life, and my husband most likely dislikes the way it is being utilized, although there's not many choices here...

And yes, all siblings, 5 of them, attended a meeting in the estate lawyers office, telling them of the bloodline will, and the Corporation being set up, and my MIL chose a name for the corporation.

Thank you, I realize this is completely one direction, then another...
Sorry.

JudyKayTee · Nov 11, 2007, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Icare

"Can you explain your concern here if it is not about equity in distribution?"

The concern comes from the original request of my deceased FIL, who wanted my husband named as executor, and told him so, but managed to die unexpectedly before he had the paperwork finalized.

Therefore my husband feels some responsibility towards the estate, I suppose. We are retired now 3 years, and are financially secure. So, I guess it's just something for him to think about? Although as you realize a few extra bucks, can never hurt. :)
And most likely it's somewhat aggravating seeing an alcoholic handing affairs. So, he could possibly feel disloyal to his fathers memory, but MIL feels sympathetic to BIL, so such is life. His father worked his entire life, and my husband most likely dislikes the way it is being utilized, although there's not many choices here...

And yes, all siblings, 5 of them, attended a meeting in the estate lawyers office, telling them of the bloodline will, and the Corporation being set up, and my MIL chose a name for the corporation.

Thank you, I realize this is completely one direction, then another....
sorry.

Okay - now I'm on the same page you are on. Your husband feels responsibility to honor his father's wishes. That I can understand. If your husband was present at the time the corporation was set up he absolutely is entitled to a copy of the corporate papers. I would get in touch with that Attorney and ask for a copy; if not, ask for the name of the Corporation and pursue obtaining the papers with the State. I wish you well -

Icare · Nov 11, 2007, 11:55 AM

We will contact the attorney tomorrow, and ask for copies.
(I may be back... ha ha)

Thank you all for your knowledge, and time.

ScottGem · Nov 11, 2007, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Icare

We will contact the attorney tomorrow, and ask for copies.
(I may be back...ha ha)

Thank you all for your knowledge, and time.

I have to point out that you first asked this question 6 months ago. At the time I told you need to talk to the attorney to get a real explanation of what was done. If your husband is a party to the corporation then the attorney has to deal with you. Same if you are a beneficiary under a trust. Yet in the ensuing six months you have apparently done little or nothing about this. Why not?