[Athos]

First question:

Is it immoral or evil to punish someone with excruciating pain for all eternity in a fiery torture chamber because A) they did not believe in Jesus as God, B) they never heard of Jesus in the first place, or 3) they heard of Jesus but rejected his Godhood because they preferred their own beliefs about God as Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or Aztecs?


The second is like the first:

Would God see it as evil or immoral? NOTE: I am not asking what God would do. I am asking what you THINK God would do. I realize one can never perfectly know the mind of God, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what YOUR belief is, what one believes God would do.


Parroting the Bible is not what is being sought. That is already known.

Referencing the Bible in a well-thought out response is welcomed.

[dwashbur]

Athos
Two Questions About Hell As Hell Is Understood By Many Christians

First question:

Is it immoral or evil to punish someone with excruciating pain for all eternity in a fiery torture chamber because A) they did not believe in Jesus as God, B) they never heard of Jesus in the first place, or 3) they heard of Jesus but rejected his Godhood because they preferred their own beliefs about God as Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or Aztecs?

My opinion on hell has already been put out there. Randy Alcorn envisioned it as....nothing. Pure aloneness. Conscious, but there's noone else, nothing to interact with, sort of a limbo type existence. The only person we see go there is someone who deliberately rejects Jesus, even in the face of his best friends' encouragement. And they show it in their lives as well as their words, but he rejects it anyway for various reasons. When he's killed in an accident, that's how he ends up.

As for your question, who defines morality and evil? Is it possible there's more going on at the eternal level than we can ever comprehend, which means there are more reasons for people ending up where they do than we know? How evil is evil? How immoral is immoral? Are there degrees? Where's the dividing line between what's unacceptable and what can be tolerated? And most important, how do/can we know?

The second is like the first:

Would God see it as evil or immoral? NOTE: I am not asking what God would do. I am asking what you THINK God would do. I realize one can never perfectly know the mind of God, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what YOUR belief is, what one believes God would do.

My belief is, God defines good and evil, moral and immoral. If God has concluded that certain people spending eternity separated from him/her/it is necessary, I'm not the one to second-guess. I can see how it looks immoral and evil from a human earthly standpoint, and that's all we have. But the key to it all is, that's all we have. We don't have the whole picture, indeed if we saw it our heads would explode.

[Athos]

Randy Alcorn envisioned it as....nothing. Pure aloneness.

Lol. Nice job avoiding.

Let me re-phrase it. Substitute Alcorn's "nothing, pure aloneness" etc., for "fiery excruciating pain", etc. Is that a fair suitable punishment for never having heard of Jesus?

The only person we see go there is someone who deliberately rejects Jesus.....for various reasons.

Someone who deliberately rejects Jesus for reasons as various as that person's faith is Islam or Judaism or any number of beliefs that do not believe in Jesus as God is sent to hell?

As for your question, who defines morality and evil?

Please, DW, this is really avoiding the question. We can all define morality and evil enough to answer the question.

Is it possible there's more going on at the eternal level than we can ever comprehend

Sure there is. But you were specifically asked NOT to answer as if you knew the mind of God.

which means there are more reasons for people ending up where they do than we know?

This is one of those non-answer answers avoiding by saying God knows more than we know. You're not being asked what God knows.

How evil is evil? How immoral is immoral? Are there degrees? Where's the dividing line between what's unacceptable and what can be tolerated? And most important, how do/can we know?

None of these questions are relevant. You've already admitted believing in the existence of hell as Alcorn described it.

My belief is, God defines good and evil, moral and immoral.

A) No one denies that. B) You were specifically asked for YOUR thought, NOT answering for God.

If God has concluded that certain people spending eternity separated from him/her/it is necessary

IF? IF? No one has concluded that.

I'm not the one to second-guess.

You're not being asked to second-guess.

I can see how it looks immoral and evil from a human earthly standpoint, and that's all we have. But the key to it all is, that's all we have. We don't have the whole picture,

WHAT "looks immoral or evil"?

You're talking in circles, confounding your admission of the existence of hell with questioning whether the "human earthly standpoint" is the whole picture. I think your belief in hell is rooted in the Bible but not in the traditional understanding of hell as eternal fiery punishment. That's progress.

Well, it's been fun replying to all your points. I hope you will do me the honor of similarly replying to all of mine.

[dwashbur]

Athos
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
Randy Alcorn envisioned it as....nothing. Pure aloneness.
Lol. Nice job avoiding.

Not if you cite all that I wrote, which you didn't.

Let me re-phrase it. Substitute Alcorn's "nothing, pure aloneness" etc., for "fiery excruciating pain", etc. Is that a fair suitable punishment for never having heard of Jesus?

I have answered this question many times and you don't seem to grasp the concept of "I don't know".

The only person we see go there is someone who deliberately rejects Jesus.....for various reasons.
Someone who deliberately rejects Jesus for reasons as various as that person's faith is Islam or Judaism or any number of beliefs that do not believe in Jesus as God is sent to hell?

No. Read the book.

As for your question, who defines morality and evil?
Please, DW, this is really avoiding the question. We can all define morality and evil enough to answer the question.

From God's perspective? Or from human perspective? That's my question. Nice dodge.

Is it possible there's more going on at the eternal level than we can ever comprehend
Sure there is. But you were specifically asked NOT to answer as if you knew the mind of God.

I have no idea how you got that out of what I wrote. Another nice dodge.

which means there are more reasons for people ending up where they do than we know?
This is one of those non-answer answers avoiding by saying God knows more than we know. You're not being asked what God knows.

I'm not sure *you* know what you're asking, because you keep changing it.

How evil is evil? How immoral is immoral? Are there degrees? Where's the dividing line between what's unacceptable and what can be tolerated? And most important, how do/can we know?
None of these questions are relevant. You've already admitted believing in the existence of hell as Alcorn described it.

You are the one who brought up the concepts of evil and immorality, and now you're saying defining them is irrelevant. Please make up your mind.

My belief is, God defines good and evil, moral and immoral.
A) No one denies that. B) You were specifically asked for YOUR thought, NOT answering for God.

You're telling me to have a different opinion than what I believe God says about it. That doesn't make sense.

If God has concluded that certain people spending eternity separated from him/her/it is necessary
IF? IF? No one has concluded that.

I believe that's what I said, and the reason for the "if". Again, your answer doesn't make sense.

I'm not the one to second-guess.
You're not being asked to second-guess.

That's exactly what you're asking me to do by demanding my opinion, but insisting that it can't be the same as (my opinion of) God's.

I can see how it looks immoral and evil from a human earthly standpoint, and that's all we have. But the key to it all is, that's all we have. We don't have the whole picture,
WHAT "looks immoral or evil"?

Um, what YOU said was immoral or evil: sending someone to a fiery torment for reasons you don't think are valid. Your words, friend. Again, you brought up those concepts, but I'm not convinced you know what you want to do with them.

You're talking in circles, confounding your admission of the existence of hell with questioning whether the "human earthly standpoint" is the whole picture. I think your belief in hell is rooted in the Bible but not in the traditional understanding of hell as eternal fiery punishment. That's progress.

I still don't see your reasoning. I've denied the fire and brimstone hell consistently every time it's come up. I have no idea what you want from me, and I'm not sure you do, either.

[Athos]

I have no idea what you want from me, and I'm not sure you do, either.

(Thank you, thank you, thank you - for answering me point by point. That's so much better than hit-and-run replies.)

I have a perfectly sure idea what I want from you.

Instead of point-by-point, this time let me go right to your important last sentence I included above to start this reply.

In the absolute simplest terms, IS-THERE-A-HELL-WHERE-GOD-SENDS-PEOPLE-WHO-DO-NOT-BELIEVE-IN-JESUS-AS-GOD-AND HE LEAVES-THEM-THERE-FOR-ETERNITY??

Please don't obfuscate. A simple YES or NO will suffice. After your yes or no, an explanation for your answer if you decide to offer one will be carefully read by me, every single word, AFTER your yes or no. If you prefer to continue without the yes or no, or simply give no reply, I thank you for the time and effort you have spent on this thread and I will no longer participate in this thread.

For the record, I think you DO believe in a perpetual hell where God sends those who do not believe Jesus is God.

I'm working on another topic which I invite all to comment on.

[jlisenbe]

I realize this may, for some, upset the apple cart, but should we elect to pay some attention to what Jesus said, we find about twenty references where he likened hell to "fire".

For example, there is this passage in Luke 16.

The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

This one passage clearly shows the error of, "The only person we see go there is someone who deliberately rejects Jesus." There are many other references such as the Matt. 25 passage which has been earnestly ignored here by some.

One must wonder what Jesus meant when he said in John 5, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." What did he mean by "judgment"? What did he mean when he said, "...hears my word and believes him who sent me..."?

[dwashbur]

For the record, I think you DO believe in a perpetual hell where God sends those who do not believe Jesus is God.

I don't know why, because I have said many times that that's not the case.

The answer is yes, with the caveat that Jesus said this place was prepared for Sstan and his minions, but human free will that rejects God's revelation of himself causes people to end up there, as well.

But for the umpteenth time, believing Jesus is God is not the criterion. Please get off that kick.

[Athos]

I don't know why, because I have said many times that that's not the case.

But for the umpteenth time, believing Jesus is God is not the criterion. Please get off that kick.

Thank you ten million times for straightening me out. I don't know how I got so far off the track. I think the thread started with me denying God would send someone to hell simply for not believing Jesus is God. I must not have read your replies carefully enough to understand your point. For that I am truly sorry. I pride myself on normally reading replies as many times as needed to ensure I understand what is being written. I promise to do better in the future.

If I were a 16th century samurai, I could not live with the shame I have brought upon myself and would immediately commit seppuku. However, I am a 21st century flannel-mouthed Irishman, so I will charge right ahead with the new information (new to me) in your next sentence. Let the fun begin!!

The answer is yes, with the caveat that Jesus said this place was prepared for Sstan and his minions, but human free will that rejects God's revelation of himself causes people to end up there, as well.

Your answer is yes to the following:
1. Hell is perpetual.
2. It is a place of punishment.
3. It is where Satan and his minions are.
4. People who reject God's revelation of himself are also there.

Do I have that right?

[Wondergirl]

And what good is Hell as a perpetual place of punishment? They've had their chance, so tough bananas? So they will suffer somehow forever? Hmm, that just doesn't sound like the loving God I believe in. Wouldn't He find a better way, maybe to reform them somehow?

[jlisenbe]

that just doesn't sound like the loving God I believe in.

You or I believing something does not make it true.

[Athos]

And what good is Hell as a perpetual place of punishment? They've had their chance, so tough bananas? So they will suffer somehow forever? Hmm, that just doesn't sound like the loving God I believe in. Wouldn't He find a better way, maybe to reform them somehow?

Excellent questions. DW should have replies addressing them.

[Wondergirl]

What about the mentally ill who aren't concerned with spiritual matters or people who have been emotionally and physically abused/bullied/sexually abused by supposedly religious people and thus have refused to be a part of God's church on earth?

[Athos]

What about the mentally ill who aren't concerned with spiritual matters or people who have been emotionally and physically abused/bullied/sexually abused by supposedly religious people and thus have refused to be a part of God's church on earth?

Those are tough questions. DW will have his hands full answering them.

Not speaking for DW, but he said hell was for those who rejected God's revelation of himself. Your questions get to the heart of the matter. I just hope we don't get bogged down in the semantics of the meaning of "rejection" and/or "revelation".

[jlisenbe]

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

[dwashbur]

Your answer is yes to the following:
1. Hell is perpetual.
2. It is a place of punishment.
3. It is where Satan and his minions are.
4. People who reject God's revelation of himself are also there.

Do I have that right?

Sorry if I was a bit harsh. There's no need for that, I apologize.

I can't verify #2. I see it as a place of separation, and in one way or another those who end up there choose it. Don't ask me to get more specific than that because I can't. That's as much as I've been able to suss out.
#3 not necessarily "are" right now, but it's the place of separation that was prepared for those who don't want to acknowledge the Almighty. Satan and his minions are the only ones who truly fit that description.
#4: eventually.

As for WG's question about the mentally infirm etc.: if one is mentally incapable of making a decision, one can't be held responsible for said decision. I think there's a good reason why we refer to folks with Down's Syndrome as "angels". Likewise other mentally challenged people, infants, and so on.

The God I see in the Bible is infinitely loving and merciful. But he also doesn't have to take any crap from us. If a person doesn't want what he offers, they're free to reject it. As for those who have never heard, I've answered that many times, as well. Same answer. They're judged based on how much they do know, not on anything they don't know.

South Park treated this question, if one can imagine that.

Wondergirl
What about the mentally ill who aren't concerned with spiritual matters or people who have been emotionally and physically abused/bullied/sexually abused by supposedly religious people and thus have refused to be a part of God's church on earth?

I like to say, "Don't judge Jesus by the company he keeps. Because he's even willing to keep company with you."

[Wondergirl]

As for those who have never heard, I've answered that many times, as well. Same answer. They're judged based on how much they do know, not on anything they don't know.

How much they know -- or if they love others? A brain thing or a heart thing?

[dwashbur]

Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
As for those who have never heard, I've answered that many times, as well. Same answer. They're judged based on how much they do know, not on anything they don't know.

I don't make such a distinction. The whole head/heart separation is a fallacy that probably grew out of the enlightenment.

[Wondergirl]

I don't make such a distinction. The whole head/heart separation is a fallacy that probably grew out of the enlightenment.

Thus, you're saying, "What's love got to do, got to do with it? What's love but a second-hand emotion?"

[Athos]

Sorry if I was a bit harsh. There's no need for that, I apologize.

Not to worry. Things often get a "bit harsh" in these parts. I humbly accept your apology.

I can't verify #2. I see it as a place of separation, and in one way or another those who end up there choose it. Don't ask me to get more specific than that because I can't.

I take that to mean you can't verify punishment, but you agree that some do end up there by choice. I respect that you can't be more specific.

#3 not necessarily "are" right now, but it's the place of separation that was prepared for those who don't want to acknowledge the Almighty. Satan and his minions are the only ones who truly fit that description.

Forgive me as I go on a far tangent. Satan isn't a REAL figure. I'm surprised you think he is. You must know he was imported from Persian religion, became Satan in Hebrew literature and morphed into pure evil by the time of the New Testament with Jerome doing one of his unfortunate translations rendering "morning star" as "Lucifer" which became another name for Satan.

#4: eventually.

I take this to mean that people who reject God's revelation of himself are eventually in hell.

Sam reads the Bible, hears Christian preachers, gives a lot of thought to God and Jesus and everything he knows about God and consciously decides not to accept God. Sam declares he's an atheist.

Ok - summary time:
1. Hell is perpetual.
2. Hell is not punishment, it is better described as separation from God (not verified), and those who go there choose to go there.
3. Satan etc., etc., etc.
4. People who reject God eventually go to hell.

#3 Satan is dealt with above. He doesn't affect the discussion one way or the other.

For the rest, you say hell is an eternal place of separation from God (which you can't verify) for those who deliberately reject God's revelation of himself.

My reply:
Assuming you can verify your description of hell, you run up against two very determinative refutations of all you say re hell.

The first one is that nowhere in the Bible can your description of hell be found.

The second one and much more importantly is that hell is a contradiction of the nature of God. We say that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, and eternal.

The contradiction lies in a God that is both perfectly loving and creator of all. For a hell to exist would mean God is not perfectly loving since as an all-powerful creator who has perfect knowledge, God would know that Sam would deliberately reject God and go to hell for eternity.

This would be an unpleasant experience for Sam for eternity and in no possible way would it reflect a perfect love that God had for Sam. By the act of creating Sam, God has condemned Sam. God chose to create Sam anyway, thereby KNOWINGLY, in effect, sending Sam to hell since Sam cannot do other than what God has foreseen, else God lacks perfect knowledge.

QED. There is no hell.

The God I see in the Bible is infinitely loving and merciful....... As for those who have never heard, I've answered that many times. They're judged based on how much they do know, not on anything they don't know.

Agreed.

[dwashbur]

Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
I don't make such a distinction. The whole head/heart separation is a fallacy that probably grew out of the enlightenment.
Thus, you're saying, "What's love got to do, got to do with it? What's love but a second-hand emotion?"

In this particular context, yes.

Forgive me as I go on a far tangent. Satan isn't a REAL figure. I'm surprised you think he is. You must know he was imported from Persian religion, became Satan in Hebrew literature and morphed into pure evil by the time of the New Testament with Jerome doing one of his unfortunate translations rendering "morning star" as "Lucifer" which became another name for Satan.

Uh uh. According to the New Testament he's a real critter and I'll take that testimony over yours any day, pardon me. The "morning star" passage is about the king of Babylon. It says so right there. The word "Lucifer" grates on my nerves every time I hear it. It's a Latin rendering of a Greek translation of a Hebrew phrase and it's meaningless. But Satan is real.