[dwashbur]

Athos
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
I have never seen any biblical evidence for such a place. Historically, it looks to me like purgatory is a theological construct invented to resolve certain knotty questions.

Not necessarily. See Arianism.
OK with Arianism and Purgatory and Sanhedrin - we're drifting again away from the topic.

Purgatory, yes. The others, not really. You said believing he's God and believing in the resurrection are the same thing. Arianism shows they're not, because Arians believed in the resurrection but believed Jesus was a created being. JW's have a similar belief, though they have their own view of what constituted "resurrection".

I presented the Sanhedrin as an example of those who know the truth and choose to reject it. Yes, those people end up separated from God for eternity, whatever form that may ultimately take. Once again, the imagery we see in the Bible are attempts to describe the incomprehensible using familiar word pictures. I have no idea what the actual place is like and I don't intend to find out.

I've answered the other question many times, and the answer remains the same: God deals with individual hearts. How he does that with those who haven't heard, I repeat for the umpteenth time:

Idunno.

I get the feeling you're having trouble with the fact that I'm not a universalist.

[Athos]

I get the feeling you're having trouble with the fact that I'm not a universalist.

No, I'm having trouble with what I see as you circling around a simple question. The Sanhedrin, Arianism, etc. are examples.

You said believing he's God and believing in the resurrection are the same thing.

Not exactly. I said, "Isn't that essentially the same question, asked in a different way?" But OK, you're close enough.

Arianism shows they're not, because Arians believed in the resurrection but believed Jesus was a created being. JW's have a similar belief, though they have their own view of what constituted "resurrection".

Are you saying the Arian belief is your belief? Or that the Arian belief is the correct belief? If it's not one of those two reasons, I'm confused as to your purpose in bringing it up. I get their created being thing.

I presented the Sanhedrin as an example of those who know the truth and choose to reject it

Saying the disciples stole the body is hardly the same as knowing Jesus is God (or has risen) and rejecting that.

Yes, those people end up separated from God for eternity, whatever form that may ultimately take.

Ah, very good! This is the heart of the matter. "...whatever form that may ultimately take" leaves much room. I can accept that with the condition that God would never resort to an immoral form. Eternal torture as a penalty for simple ignorance is an immoral form.

Once again, the imagery we see in the Bible are attempts to describe the incomprehensible using familiar word pictures.

Agreed. That has been my position all along.

I have no idea what the actual place is like and I don't intend to find out.

Lol. It certainly is not like what sprung out of Dante's imagination, as brilliant as his poem is.

I've answered the other question many times, and the answer remains the same: God deals with individual hearts. How he does that with those who haven't heard, I repeat for the umpteenth time:

Idunno.

I respect your not knowing, but surely God would not do anything against his nature, like somethig evil or immoral?


I'm enjoying this - lots of fun, exercising the brain on a cold winter's night.

[dwashbur]

Arianism shows they're not, because Arians believed in the resurrection but believed Jesus was a created being. JW's have a similar belief, though they have their own view of what constituted "resurrection".
Are you saying the Arian belief is your belief? Or that the Arian belief is the correct belief? If it's not one of those two reasons, I'm confused as to your purpose in bringing it up. I get their created being thing.

I'm saying Arianism shows that it is possible to believe in the resurrection without believing he's God. Nothing more. I'm not an Arian, never have been, but I do believe they were saved.

Saying the disciples stole the body is hardly the same as knowing Jesus is God (or has risen) and rejecting that.

It is if they deliberately paid guards off and told them to spread the story. The guards knew better. And again, if that had really been the case, the guards would have forfeited their lives for letting it happen.

Ah, very good! This is the heart of the matter. "...whatever form that may ultimately take" leaves much room. I can accept that with the condition that God would never resort to an immoral form. Eternal torture as a penalty for simple ignorance is an immoral form.

Once again I'm going to suggest Randy Alcorn's book Deadline. The picture there is more in line with what I suspect. I can't honestly say "believe" because there's no way to know for sure. But his makes the most sense to me.

I respect your not knowing, but surely God would not do anything against his nature, like somethig evil or immoral?

Agreed, as long as God is the one who gets to define those terms. I see too many people on social media take the approach "I don't think this is right therefore God doesn't, either." I've seen someone do that about something as innocuous as baseball, to throw out a single example.

I'm enjoying this - lots of fun, exercising the brain on a cold winter's night.

Likewise.

[Athos]

fm Athos
Saying the disciples stole the body is hardly the same as knowing Jesus is God (or has risen) and rejecting that.


fm dwashbur
It is if they deliberately paid guards off and told them to spread the story.

In plain language, you are saying they knew Jesus was God since you wrote, "It is if they deliberately paid guards off and told them to spread the story.' I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this reads as they KNEW JESUS IS GOD because they deliberately paid guards off and told them to spread the story. Please forgive me, but I cannot make any sense out of that at all. I re-read it several times.

Once again I'm going to suggest Randy Alcorn's book Deadline.

The book is fiction which is ok. But I can't read an entire book to get your point. Can you just summarize in your own words what Alcorn is saying by citing the specifics of his meaning as expressed in the book?

fm Athos
I respect your not knowing, but surely God would not do anything against his nature, like somethig evil or immoral?

fm DW
Agreed, as long as God is the one who gets to define those terms.

This reads like an evasion. Let me ask it as directly as possible.

Do you think it is immoral or evil to punish someone with excruciating pain for all eternity in a fiery torture chamber because A) they did not believe in Jesus as God, B) they never heard of Jesus in the first place, or 3) they heard of Jesus but rejected his Godhood because they preferred their own beliefs about God as Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or Aztecs?

Do you think God would see it as evil or immoral? NOTE: I am not asking you what God would do. I am asking you what you THINK God would do. I realize you can never perfectly know the mind of God, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what YOUR belief is about what you believe God would do. Whew! Hope that's finally clear.

I see too many people on social media take the approach "I don't think this is right therefore God doesn't, either."

That is clearly NOT the issue here.

I've seen someone do that about something as innocuous as baseball, to throw out a single example.

Throwing out your single example to offer support to your position is not a good way to offer support. I don't deny your experience but you need more than unsupported anecdotes to be convincing.

[dwashbur]

Athos
fm Athos
Saying the disciples stole the body is hardly the same as knowing Jesus is God (or has risen) and rejecting that.


fm dwashbur
It is if they deliberately paid guards off and told them to spread the story.
In plain language, you are saying they knew Jesus was God since you wrote, "It is if they deliberately paid guards off and told them to spread the story.' I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this reads as they KNEW JESUS IS GOD because they deliberately paid guards off and told them to spread the story. Please forgive me, but I cannot make any sense out of that at all. I re-read it several times.

I mean they denied the resurrection. The guards reported what happened and the Sanhedrin paid them to lie about it.
Believing the resurrection and believing Jesus is God are two different things. I believe I've answered your questions about both.
I don't know why examples are lost on you, but so be it.

[Athos]

I mean they denied the resurrection. The guards reported what happened and the Sanhedrin paid them to lie about it.

I see the above as another evasion. Here is the part evaded,


Let me ask it as directly as possible.

Do you think it is immoral or evil to punish someone with excruciating pain for all eternity in a fiery torture chamber because A) they did not believe in Jesus as God, B) they never heard of Jesus in the first place, or 3) they heard of Jesus but rejected his Godhood because they preferred their own beliefs about God as Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or Aztecs?

Do you think God would see it as evil or immoral? NOTE: I am not asking you what God would do. I am asking you what you THINK God would do. I realize you can never perfectly know the mind of God, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what YOUR belief is about what you believe God would do. Whew! Hope that's finally clear.


You did not answer the above, and you also wrote,


Believing the resurrection and believing Jesus is God are two different things. I believe I've answered your questions about both.

I didn't think your answer was correct – about having answered both questions - so I went back and read several of your comments/replies.

I did this because I wanted to make sure I wasn't saying you wrote something you didn't write. Here's what I found going back to December. I didn't go further back or copy more since I thought this exchange below was definitive re your position.


Post 163 in thread “To Hell With Hell”

Replying to my post that behavior determines heaven or hell and belief has nothing to do with it, you wrote,


I accept Jesus' statements that he's the only way, and belief - a terrible word for it in today's American English, "trust" would be much better - in him is crucial to reconciliation with God.

I followed up with,

Thank you for replying.

A follow-up question: How then do you explain the millions who lived before Jesus and never heard of him? And the billions who lived since Jesus and never heard of him? Does Jesus' statement that he's the only way, and is crucial to reconciliation with God apply to those groups? Do they go to hell?

You answered, (Post #217)

En masse? No. God deals with individual hearts. Paul addressed this in Acts 17:

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

Obviously they can't repent toward something they haven't heard, so every person who looked at their culture's idol deity and said "I don't want to worship a rock. I want to know who made the rock" God will be merciful because they're doing the best they can to trust in him.

The above seemed like a contradictory evasion to me. God commanding all people everywhere to repent, then being merciful to any who were not repenting but doing the best they can.

Then, from me, I'm sure you've heard this before and I anticipate your answer.

Another thought is: If they go to hell for not accepting Jesus/God, why did Jesus/God create them in the first place, knowing they would spend eternity in terrible suffering? Being omniscient, Jesus/God must have foreseen that they would be sinners or non-believers, but he created them anyway.

You replied,

Foreknowledge need not be causation. But to address your question directly, after decades of study I have come to a definitive conclusion:

I don't know.

I replied,

When foreknowledge is combined with the power of creation, it definitely IS causation.


There is more but let me leave it at that. While appreciating your being candid saying you don't know, I was left with a lingering impression of evasion and not quite getting a direct answer to the questions listed above from my most recent post.

If you wish to leave the questions up in the air, I am fine with that.

[jlisenbe]

You did not answer the above

I was left with a lingering impression of evasion and not quite getting a direct answer to the questions listed above

Welcome to my world.

[dwashbur]

Believing the resurrection and believing Jesus is God are two different things. I believe I've answered your questions about both.

I didn't think your answer was correct – about having answered both questions - so I went back and read several of your comments/replies.

I'm trying to stick to the topic in the subject line. We have a wonderful habit of going down rabbit holes.

[Athos]

I'm trying to stick to the topic in the subject line. We have a wonderful habit of going down rabbit holes.

I'm still waiting for your reply to the original topic.


Do you think it is immoral or evil to punish someone with excruciating pain for all eternity in a fiery torture chamber because A) they did not believe in Jesus as God, B) they never heard of Jesus in the first place, or 3) they heard of Jesus but rejected his Godhood because they preferred their own beliefs about God as Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or Aztecs?

Do you think God would see it as evil or immoral? NOTE: I am not asking you what God would do. I am asking you what you THINK God would do. I realize you can never perfectly know the mind of God, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what YOUR belief is about what you believe God would do. Whew! Hope that's finally clear.


If you wish to leave the questions up in the air, I am fine with that. I'm working on another idea about Christianity that you may find worthwhile replying to. Maybe tomorrow, if time allows.

Long time ago, I was accused here of being anti-Christian. I hope by now it's plain that my Christianity posts are mostly about the non-Christian additions that have been added over the centuries often obscuring the core message.

[jlisenbe]

my Christianity posts are mostly about the non-Christian additions that have been added over the centuries often obscuring the core message.

Except that you have no evidence for that. I asked you once how you could tell which NT passages were not genuine. You replied that you had read the NT so many times that you had essentially developed a feel for it. That is far removed from having any real support for suggesting the NT is full of incorrect material added later by prejudiced scribes.

And of course he will not reply to this, but I post it in case others are following this discussion and need to know this. Any "non-Christian additions" that had been added over centuries would be apparent by comparing early NT manuscripts with later ones. His allegation is, on the whole, false. He has no support for it.

[dwashbur]

Pardon my round shoulders, but this was the original topic, as taken from the first post of the thread:

No Resurrection, No Faith?
Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:14-19 “If Christ has not been raised then our preaching is useless, and your believing it is useless. Indeed, if our hope in Christ has been for this life only, we are the most unfortunate of all people” (1 Corinthians 15: 14-19).

Christ's preaching included many parables and lessons that are familiar to all. The Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, the Prodigal Son, etc., to name only a few of the more famous ones.

Is Paul saying these things are now useless if Christ has not risen from the dead? Does this mean Paul is denying the validity of the moral teachings to stand on their own unless Jesus rose from the dead?

[Athos]

Pardon my round shoulders, but this was the original topic, as taken from the first post of the thread:

Sorry, you're right. When I went back into my profile looking at your answers, I mixed up two different threads.

The questions left hanging shall remain hanging.

[dwashbur]

Athos
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
Pardon my round shoulders, but this was the original topic, as taken from the first post of the thread:
Sorry, you're right. When I went back into my profile looking at your answers, I mixed up two different threads.

The questions left hanging shall remain hanging.

Or bounced to a new thread...

[Athos]

Or bounced to a new thread...

Good idea. Why didn't I think of that? I don't know, I said to myself.