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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #41

    Dec 3, 2022, 07:16 PM
    I said, "We don't catch anyone." You wrote, ""We" (Christians?) "catch" sinners all the time..." And you call that a quote? You need a lesson on what a quote is. I think you need a good, long look in the mirror concerning your willingness to make it up as you go.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #42

    Dec 3, 2022, 07:40 PM
    "It has to do with preaching the full message of the Gospel, and drawing that message from scripture."

    And that entails what?

    (Instead of asking me -- or anyone else here -- nicely what is meant, you throw out insults and nasty comments. Let's discuss this!)
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #43

    Dec 3, 2022, 07:42 PM
    Read the John passage. Learn.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #44

    Dec 3, 2022, 07:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Read the John passage. Learn.
    What does it mean to YOU???
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #45

    Dec 3, 2022, 07:50 PM
    How do we know it worked? (Please define "worked".)
    People came to Jesus. By the dozens. You know the history of America's Great Awakenings.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #46

    Dec 3, 2022, 07:59 PM
    I have read that about 80% of the colonials heard Whitefield in person.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #47

    Dec 3, 2022, 08:07 PM
    So believe in Jesus or you'll burn forever in hell?

    Whitefield was a slaveowner.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #48

    Dec 3, 2022, 08:26 PM
    Read the John 3 passage.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #49

    Dec 3, 2022, 08:31 PM
    No, I want you take on the situation.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #50

    Dec 3, 2022, 08:35 PM
    And that's the whole problem. You don't want to read the Bible and analyze your beliefs in light of what you read. I have no intention of doing it for you.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #51

    Dec 3, 2022, 08:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    And that's the whole problem. You don't want to read the Bible and analyze your beliefs in light of what you read. I have no intention of doing it for you.
    I probably know the Bible better than you do. The situation is approaching a nonbeliever, a pagan, and introducing Jesus and the alternative of hell to him.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #52

    Dec 3, 2022, 08:45 PM
    I don't know if you know the Bible or not. I do know it certainly seems you don't believe much of it.

    How to approach a sinner? Read the John 3 passage, for that is exactly what Jesus was doing. Once you do that, and you absorb, love, and accept it, then we can talk more.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #53

    Dec 3, 2022, 09:09 PM
    I've read it many times. How would YOU approach a person who has no interest in religion/Christianity?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #54

    Dec 3, 2022, 09:34 PM
    You say you've read it, but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #55

    Dec 4, 2022, 11:22 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You say you've read it, but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more.
    Stop playing judge. I hope that isn't how you approach the unchurched.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #56

    Dec 4, 2022, 12:51 PM
    "You say you've read it, but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more."
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #57

    Dec 4, 2022, 01:01 PM
    Accepted and loved and believed what?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #58

    Dec 4, 2022, 01:14 PM
    "You say you've read it (the John 3 passage), but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more."

    Or you can choose to reject it, but you need to make up your mind before we can continue.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #59

    Dec 4, 2022, 01:26 PM
    I haven't read it?

    Unlike you, Jesus has never threatened me or given me conditions to meet.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #60

    Dec 5, 2022, 06:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    And then, of course, there is the unmistakable meaning of Mt. 25,
    Not unmistakable just because you say so. Here is the well-documented position of explaining Mt.25.

    The relevant portion is “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, the righteous to eternal life”.

    The Greek word aionios is used in this verse to signify everlasting and is also used in this verse to signify an age – a period of time. The correct reading is “And these will go away to an age (a period of time) of punishment, and the righteous to eternal life.” Also, and importantly, the Greek word kolasis used in this verse means “corrective punishment” - not eternal punishment. "Corrective" means the punishment will end when the sinner is corrected.

    Why the two different uses of the same word? The word aionios has two meanings – eternal and an age (a limited period of time). The mistranslated verse first appears in the 5th century in Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The mistranslation has been copied ever since in the KJV and other Bibles.

    Also, and more importantly, there is the internal contradiction about the nature of an omniscient and all-loving God.

    I am faith bound to follow the teachings of Christ
    That assumes you know what the teachings of Christ are. You are always saying the words of Jesus are found in the Bible. Which words? Which Bible? When you say, “the Bible says,” what you are REALLY saying is, “My translation of certain Greek and Hebrew texts says"…

    When you want to quote your favorite version of scriptures sacred to Christianity, you should say, “The New International Version of the Christian Scriptures,” or “The King James Version of the Christian Scriptures,” or whatever Bible you prefer of the innumerable translations in just about every language on earth, not to speak of the dozens of English versions, copies, edits, of centuries past and present.

    whoever Gary Amirault is. Why on earth would anyone listen to him?
    Because Gary is a wonderful Bible teacher. Why on earth do you condemn him without knowing him?

    As Martin Luther said, "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason—I do not accept the authority of (others)...
    Note Luther's use of "plain reason". Can you honestly admit that factor into your understanding? Does belief in a talking snake contradict that factor?


    Might add that any reasonably fair reading of the two primary Greek words used for hell (Gehanna and Hades) makes it clear that the words are not referring to garbage dumps or simply a location for the dead.
    They are metaphors, figures of speech recalling Israel's history to his audience and emphasizing the point Jesus is making. That is obvious in a reasonably fair reading. They are certainly not referring to an eternal torture chamber. Gehenna referred to Israel's suffering under the Babylonians and Assyrians which his audience would have immediately recognized. Sin brought that judgment upon them.

    To suggest that is the case is to go off into a fantasy world.
    I'm sorry, Jl, but a cursory reading of Israel's history would have helped you understand the reference. Both words were mistranslated by Jerome as "hell" which carried the connotation of everlasting punishment. Neither term had anything to do with everlasting punishment.

    Context will absolutely not allow it.
    Context is always important. You didn't have the correct context.

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