[jlisenbe]

That makes two of us.

[Wondergirl]

Still waiting.

Here are two, cherry-picked 'specially for you!:

1 John 4:8 - Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 Peter 4:8 - Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

[Athos]

Why are you running from answering this question?

when you read these words as written, how do they read to you?"No man comes to the Father but by me." "I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins."

I answered it. Go back and look. Your reading tonight is worse than usual.

Why are you running from answering this question?

"So the real question is, have you placed your faith in Christ? Do you believe that Jesus is 'he'?"

My answer was so good, it deserves repeating.

"Before you crucify me for not answering your question as you always do, recall that I told you more than once that your questions are designed to find what you consider positions that you disagree with so that you can swoop down and throw your typical condemnatory spear at the person. We know you too well here, Jl."

[Athos]

Here are two, cherry-picked 'specially for you!:

1 John 4:8 - Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 Peter 4:8 - Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

Hard to believe in a discussion among Christians, one side promotes love, another side promotes hell, and a third side waits in the wings.

I vote for love.

[jlisenbe]

Rambling evasions are not answers.

[dwashbur]

Here are two, cherry-picked 'specially for you!:

1 John 4:8 - Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 Peter 4:8 - Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

To whom are they writing?

[Wondergirl]

To whom are they writing?

They are writing to all who read the Bible. To us.

[dwashbur]

Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
I'm not saying anything. I'm mainly asking questions.
Time to speak up, DW.

Depends on what they know and don't know. I don't pretend to know how much light any other person has. I leave it to God, and pray that they come to know the incredible life that comes with Jesus. Everybody wants to make things either/or; either Jesus is about heaven and pie in the sky or he's about being loving here and caring for each other. Let me be as clear as I can: BOTH.

I find it fascinating that we want to talk about modern day Buddhists, Muslims etc. etc. but nobody wants to ask about the Mesoamericans who practiced human sacrifice, the Moabites who did the same, The Philistines who worshipped a fish, did all those nice guys go to heaven?

Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
To whom are they writing?
They are writing to all who read the Bible. To us.

Who is "us"?

[Wondergirl]

Depends on what they know and don't know. I don't pretend to know how much light any other person has. I leave it to God, and pray that they come to know the incredible life that comes with Jesus.

And that incredible life is based on, surrounded by, immersed in LOVE -- loving the other more than oneself.

Everybody wants to make things either/or; either Jesus is about heaven and pie in the sky or he's about being loving here and caring for each other. Let me be as clear as I can: BOTH.

I don't care about the pie (well, maybe if it's pumpkin pie). Spending eternity in heaven would be an indescribable joy, but my Savior has richly gifted me here on earth, has helped me through a number of personal trials and losses. Yes, heaven would be a gift.

I find it fascinating that we want to talk about modern day Buddhists, Muslims etc. etc. but nobody wants to ask about the Mesoamericans who practiced human sacrifice, the Moabites who did the same, The Philistines who worshipped a fish, did all those nice guys go to heaven?

I didn't want to spend the time and bandwidth to list EVERY tribe and nationality that has ever existed. God will sort us out.

Who is "us"?

Everyone who has ever existed.

The "us" earlier was everyone who has read the Bible.

[Athos]

I find it fascinating that we want to talk about modern day Buddhists, Muslims etc. etc. but nobody wants to ask about the Mesoamericans who practiced human sacrifice, the Moabites who did the same, The Philistines who worshipped a fish, did all those nice guys go to heaven?

I find it fascinating that you compare the Buddhists and Muslims with the other peoples mentioned and suggest these others were not nice people because they had human sacrifice. You even criticize fish-worshipers and ask whether "all those nice guys go to heaven".

Here's your answer: Of course, they do. Anyone who leads a good life as described by WG goes to heaven. It doesn't matter what they believe. It only matters how they behave, and that the behavior is informed by a good conscience.

[jlisenbe]

suggest these others were not nice people because they had human sacrifice.

Well, the cat's out of the bag now. Evidently you can conduct human sacrifices and still be "nice people". I guess there will be a particular corner in heaven where the human sacrifice folks go to revel in the good ole days!!

The ideas expressed by Athos and WG are far closer to the theology of Islam than to Christianity.

[Wondergirl]

Well, the cat's out of the bag now. Evidently you can conduct human sacrifices and still be "nice people". I guess there will be a particular corner in heaven where the human sacrifice folks go to revel in the good ole days!!

Where would YOU put them?

[Athos]

Well, the cat's out of the bag now. Evidently you can conduct human sacrifices and still be "nice people". I guess there will be a particular corner in heaven where the human sacrifice folks go to revel in the good ole days!!

The ideas expressed by Athos and WG are far closer to the theology of Islam than to Christianity.

I see you've taken my name in vain again. ok.

Your OT God sure approved of nice people doing human sacrifice. He even personally ordered one of his chosen people to do just that.

And.............what cat is out of what bag?

[jlisenbe]

He even personally ordered one of his chosen people to do just that.

Chapter and verse please.

[Wondergirl]

Wasn't Jesus a human sacrifice?

[dwashbur]

Who is "us"?
Everyone who has ever existed.

The "us" earlier was everyone who has read the Bible.

That is bad exegesis. Both letters were written to believers, those who have already received Jesus and are part of His church. 1 Peter was written to a collection of churches, 1 John was written to the church of Ephesus to correct some gnostic heresies. The "us" is believers. The church. If you rip those verses out of those contexts, you do violence to the text.

Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
I find it fascinating that we want to talk about modern day Buddhists, Muslims etc. etc. but nobody wants to ask about the Mesoamericans who practiced human sacrifice, the Moabites who did the same, The Philistines who worshipped a fish, did all those nice guys go to heaven?
I find it fascinating that you compare the Buddhists and Muslims with the other peoples mentioned and suggest these others were not nice people because they had human sacrifice. You even criticize fish-worshipers and ask whether "all those nice guys go to heaven".

Here's your answer: Of course, they do. Anyone who leads a good life as described by WG goes to heaven. It doesn't matter what they believe. It only matters how they behave, and that the behavior is informed by a good conscience.

That's where we differ.

Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
Depends on what they know and don't know. I don't pretend to know how much light any other person has. I leave it to God, and pray that they come to know the incredible life that comes with Jesus.
And that incredible life is based on, surrounded by, immersed in LOVE -- loving the other more than oneself.

Hardly. That incredible life is based on the presence of Jesus in my life and the joy that comes with said presence. We talk all day long, I chatter at him like a trained monkey sometimes and he doesn't mind. Love for others grows out of that. We love, because he first loved us. Anyone who hasn't experienced that love has no idea what they're missing.

[Athos]

from Me (Athos)
Here's your answer: Of course, they do. Anyone who leads a good life as described by WG goes to heaven. It doesn't matter what they believe. It only matters how they behave, and that the behavior is informed by a good conscience.


drom DW
That's where we differ.

Kindly please explain the difference. I don't want to assume something that isn't true.

[Wondergirl]

That is bad exegesis. Both letters were written to believers, those who have already received Jesus and are part of His church. 1 Peter was written to a collection of churches, 1 John was written to the church of Ephesus to correct some gnostic heresies. The "us" is believers. The church. If you rip those verses out of those contexts, you do violence to the text.

You definitely misunderstood my two different uses of "us".

[jlisenbe]

Wasn't Jesus a human sacrifice?

Different situation. Jesus voluntarily sacrificed his own life. It hardly justifies a statement to the effect that nice people can engage in human sacrifice.

[Wondergirl]

Different situation. Jesus voluntarily sacrificed his own life. It hardly justifies a statement to the effect that nice people can engage in human sacrifice.

Not suicide?