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    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #1

    Nov 29, 2022, 09:01 PM
    Guilty Verdict for Five Oathkeepers
    Jury convicted all five Oathkeepers of obstruction, and aiding and abetting for Jan 6 insurrection. Max penalty 20 years.

    Two were also convicted of seditious conspiracy. Maximum penalty 20 more years added onto the first 20 years.

    No response from the Republican traitors who claimed Jan 6 was a typical day of tourists taking pictures.

    This is a blow for truth among the many falsehoods promulgated by the unhinged right-wing.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #2

    Nov 30, 2022, 03:57 AM
    Seditious conspiracy ;insurrection . Must be for that big cache of weapons that were brought to DC and used in the "attack" on the Capitol.
    Now don't get me wrong . Anyone who entered the Capitol Jan 6 should be charged with at least trespassing and any other crime they committed . Sedition and insurrection was not one of them .

    Oh I know that one of the witnesses testified of seeing a hotel room of weapons . He also brought an AR15 that he said he had carried to DC . Was any physical evidence beyond his own personal weapon provided ? Were any pictures submitted as evidence ? No . Yes some personal weapons were seized by arresting police .

    Weapons used included flag poles ; some pepper spray ,and selfie cameras . The only gun shot was by officer Michael Byrd who shot Ashley Babbit point blank as she entered the Capitol. Seems to me that if this were a REAL insurrection that the cache of weapons would've been employed .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #3

    Nov 30, 2022, 04:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Anyone who entered the Capitol Jan 6 should be charged with at least trespassing and any other crime they committed . Sedition and insurrection was not one of them .
    Tell that to the jury who convicted the insurrectionists of seditious conspiracy and other charges. Max 40 years in jail. Pretty stiff penalty for trespassing.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #4

    Nov 30, 2022, 04:30 AM
    DC jury DC judge nuff said
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #5

    Nov 30, 2022, 04:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    DC jury DC judge nuff said
    Geez, tom, you'll reach for anything, say anything. The whole world is corrupt when things don't go the way you want them to go.

    Go back to bed. You lost.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #6

    Nov 30, 2022, 06:13 AM
    A fair minded judge would've granted a transfer of venue . The demonstration was held in DC ; the kangaroo court was ongoing , Find me 12 impartial jurors there and I'll find a unicorn and a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow .

    The 6th amendment guarantees trial by an impartial jury. There is no way the jury in the Oath Keepers trial were impartial .

    If you want precedence then look at

    Delaney v. United States, 199 F.2d 107 (1st Cir. 1952) :: Justia

    Delaney was tried and convicted in a Boston court for corruption after a congressional hearing about Delaney that got a lot of coverage in the Boston press. The committee heard testimony linking Delaney “to a nationwide ‘shakedown’ plot” from many of the witnesses who later testified for the prosecution at his trial.
    Delaney did not even ask for a change of venue. All he wanted was a continuance so some time would pass between the hearings and his trial.

    That was not granted .

    The appeals court unanimously overturned the conviction finding that the judge’s failure to grant the continuance had been “neither right, nor in harmony with the spirit of the Sixth Amendment for the United States to make him stand trial while the damaging effect of all that hostile publicity may reasonably be thought not to have been erased from the public mind.”

    Of note the appellate court noted something very similar to the Jan 6 kangaroo court .

    None of the testimony of witnesses heard at the committee hearing ran the gauntlet of defense cross-examination. Nor was the published evidence tempered, challenged, or minimized by evidence offered by the accused.

    Early in Garland's career he was a prosecutor in the Oklahoma City Bombing by Timothy McVeigh and Terry Lynn Nichols . He agreed that the case had to be moved because the circumstances made it impossible to try their cases fairly in the Western District of Oklahoma.

    The lawyer for defendant Navy Vet Thomas Caldwell ;who prosecutors claim was going to bring a boat load of weapons up the Potomac River noted that in particular there is a huge case of TDS in Washington DC . He said in arguing for venue change that To deny that the lion’s share of potential District jurors will be highly predisposed against a Trump-supporting defendant is like denying that water is a liquid.

    Given the circumstances ;this case is tailor made for reversal from SCOTUS on 6th amendment grounds.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #7

    Nov 30, 2022, 06:50 AM
    All five were charged with "seditious conspiracy", an ancient law passed just after the Civil War and one that is difficult to prove since it is so broad in scope. Three were found not guilty, so that's a 60% failure rate for Garland. Of the two found guilty, the odds of having their convictions overturned are considerable.

    The question of how they planned to have an insurrection when they were basically unarmed is a good one and one which should be answered. "Let's storm the Capitol with flag poles," just doesn't sound convincing.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,514, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #8

    Nov 30, 2022, 10:58 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    A fair minded judge would've granted a transfer of venue . The demonstration was held in DC ; the kangaroo court was ongoing , Find me 12 impartial jurors there and I'll find a unicorn and a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow .

    The 6th amendment guarantees trial by an impartial jury. There is no way the jury in the Oath Keepers trial were impartial .
    Due to the nature of this case and the massive media interest, you'd be hard pushed to find an impartial jury no matter where the matter was heard.
    Remember what impartial means, you'd be better off looking for 12 non-partisan or formally registered people. That's even more doubtful.
    The judiciary and government wanted to make an example of these people and stamp their power on proceedings.
    I doubt SCOTUS will hear anything concerning apparent civil rights breaches for these people.
    Therein in lies the possibility of members of extremist political organisations seeing justice, especially in the polarised USA. You have Mr Trump to thank for that view point...
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #9

    Nov 30, 2022, 12:01 PM
    I was basically with you until your final sentence.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,514, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #10

    Nov 30, 2022, 12:23 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I was basically with you until your final sentence.
    So, you believe that Mr Trump's presidential tenure hasn't exacerbated the polarization of American politics.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #11

    Nov 30, 2022, 12:51 PM
    You initially said, "You have Mr Trump to thank for that view point," which makes it sound as though it's all on him. Now you are saying he exacerbated it. I could agree with that, but there are many others who hold responsibility, everyone from Hillary Clinton (basket of deplorables) to Maxine Waters to BLM to Antifa to two pointless, unfruitful impeachment efforts. It's been a team effort.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #12

    Nov 30, 2022, 01:24 PM
    The judiciary and government wanted to make an example of these people and stamp their power on proceedings.
    and here I thought they were charged with seeking justice. If the judiciary from the bottom to the top is that polarized then it confirms my contention that we live in a 3rd world banana republic . The judiciary could checked the excesses of the other branches .
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,514, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #13

    Nov 30, 2022, 01:33 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    and here I thought they were charged with seeking justice. If the judiciary from the bottom to the top is that polarized then it confirms my contention that we live in a 3rd world banana republic . The judiciary should checked the excesses of the other branches .
    Yes, indeed, however the whole system is broken and extremely partisan. A sad time for impartial American Justice.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #14

    Nov 30, 2022, 02:13 PM
    Ben

    also the Oklahoma City bombing (in that case a REAL terrorist act of insurrection) the case was moved and it garnered as much national attention as the Jan 6 riot .
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,514, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #15

    Nov 30, 2022, 02:23 PM
    The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing was clearly an act of domestic terrorism by a lone operator, unfortunately the overly partisan nature and magnitude of the Jan 6th riot makes it fall under the insurrection umbrella.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #16

    Nov 30, 2022, 02:35 PM
    unfortunately the overly partisan nature and magnitude of the Jan 6th riot makes it fall under the insurrection umbrella.
    An insurrection is an organized, typically violent attempt to overthrow an existing government. Jan. 6 fell far short of that.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,514, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #17

    Nov 30, 2022, 02:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Blah, blah, blah, wibble
    Shhhh, adults are having a conversation...
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #18

    Nov 30, 2022, 02:52 PM
    Shhhh, adults are having a conversation...
    So that's how an adult acts? Would never have guessed it! You'll pardon me if I don't follow your example.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #19

    Nov 30, 2022, 02:58 PM
    If January 6 was insurrection then you would agree that the occupation of the Wisconsin Capitol building by thousands of protesters
    from February 14 to early March 2011 was an insurrection .

    You would have to agree that the Antifa assaults that included setting fire to a Federal Court House in Portland ;and the violent assault on city hall was insurrection .

    You would have to say that the BLM riots that caused billions in damage ;and in some cities occupiers declared the space they seized as their own sovereign nation.

    Jl is right . Jan 6 turned violent . But there was no attempt at a government takeover .
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,514, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #20

    Nov 30, 2022, 03:11 PM
    As I have no links to the American judiciary, I can't comment on the charges, or lack there of.
    As for the 2011 matter, as I understand the US law, insurrection and sedition are concerned with the Federal government, rather than merely state.

    In the case of Jan 6th riot, as the focus was on stopping the official certification the the federal presidential election, this represents a whole other level of stupidity.
    In the cold light of day, did they really think that this uprising would make any real difference to the election, especially after everything else that had preceded the certification...
    The 60+ court actions really laid the path for what was happening.
    Not helped in the slightest by, what basically amounts to, a childish case of bad sportsmanship.
    Mr Trump lost the election, pure and simple, he just refused to see the truth of that cold hard fact.
    You may not like the result, but that is irrelevant, as The People had spoken at the ballot.
    Please don't roll out the rhetoric on how the election was stolen or a fraud as there is zero evidence to support that contention.
    Yes, I guess the Dems covered it all up, really !!! [/Rant]

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