[dwashbur]

Luke 8. Jesus is walking with Jairus to see about the gentleman's daughter. A huge crowd is jostling him and everyone else as they walk. Suddenly Jesus says "Who touched me?"

It's all set in thoroughly Semitic linguistic terms, but basically, Peter gives Jesus a sideways look, points at the crowd, and says, "Who touched you? REALLY?????"

I enjoy taking these things and putting them in today's lingo that the kids talk :D

[jlisenbe]

Well done. It's an interesting moment for sure.

Question for you. In Gal. 2:20, Paul tells us, " I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." It's a perfect tense verb telling us that Paul was crucified with Christ and remains so until that very day. So we are crucified with Christ, and yet we still feel the pull and influence of sin. How do you reconcile those two realities? I feel like I am about halfway there in understanding this but not fully there by any means.

[Wondergirl]

Even a mere touch can convey one's need.

[dwashbur]

Question for you. In Gal. 2:20, Paul tells us, " I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." It's a perfect tense verb telling us that Paul was crucified with Christ and remains so until that very day. So we are crucified with Christ, and yet we still feel the pull and influence of sin. How do you reconcile those two realities? I feel like I am about halfway there in understanding this but not fully there by any means.

I think Romans 7 pretty well answers that, but with a caveat: I hate the NIV rendering. "Sinful nature" is a theological interpretation, not a translation. The word is just "sin". Elsewhere he says that one who has died has been freed from sin.

My take: the sin that still besets us dwells in our physical bodies. Our spirit has been crucified and raised with Him, but the body is still fallible and subject to corruption. Upon death, the spirit is freed from that.

Does that mean I think the body is evil and has to be punished, like those nut case monks from way back when? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. Our bodies are NOT evil or sinful. But while we live in this mortal body, we're subject to its fallibilities and limitations, and yes, the sin that dwells in those fallible members. I hope this is making sense, this is actually the first time I've set it down into written words.

[dwashbur]

Even a mere touch can convey one's need.

Yes. The silly part of this story is, everybody in town is touching up against him and he says "who touched me?" When he says that, I can see the disciples looking around and saying "You're kidding."

[Wondergirl]

Our spirit has been crucified and raised with Him, but the body is still fallible and subject to corruption. Upon death, the spirit is freed from that.

And, during this life, that freed-from-sin spirit is able to influence the still-sinful body to do the good thing, the loving thing, instead of the harmful thing.

Yes. The silly part of this story is, everybody in town is touching up against him and he says "who touched me?"

And the woman touched the edge of his cloak, not his arm or another body part. That makes Jesus' response even more amazing.

[jlisenbe]

My take: the sin that still besets us dwells in our physical bodies. Our spirit has been crucified and raised with Him, but the body is still fallible and subject to corruption. Upon death, the spirit is freed from that.

Does that mean I think the body is evil and has to be punished, like those nut case monks from way back when? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. Our bodies are NOT evil or sinful. But while we live in this mortal body, we're subject to its fallibilities and limitations, and yes, the sin that dwells in those fallible members. I hope this is making sense, this is actually the first time I've set it down into written words.

Good answer. There is some mystery in the whole thing to me. Romans 7 is fascinating in the sense of who is Paul referring to? Is this the old Saul prior to meeting Christ in saving power, or is Paul describing his present experience? I tend to lean to the prior, but it's really hard to say for certain. Preaching, as I do, to men who are trying to escape from a life of addiction, I have a particular interest in this topic.

As to the story of Jesus and the woman, only he was able to perceiver the operation of healing virtue moving from him to her, so he would have been in an entirely different situation from his disciples. The only experience I can compare it to is when I (and doubtless others as well) am preaching, many are politely listening, but some seem to be particularly tuned in and listening with, it seems to me, the operation of the Holy Spirit. People sitting in the church would not see this, but I can. Probably a poor comparison, but the best I can come up with.

[dwashbur]

Good answer. There is some mystery in the whole thing to me. Romans 7 is fascinating in the sense of who is Paul referring to? Is this the old Saul prior to meeting Christ in saving power, or is Paul describing his present experience? I tend to lean to the prior, but it's really hard to say for certain. Preaching, as I do, to men who are trying to escape from a life of addiction, I have a particular interest in this topic.

You're in good company; Martin Lloyd-Jones took the same view. I lean toward the latter, but won't reiterate it with a high degree of confidence.

As to the story of Jesus and the woman, only he was able to perceiver the operation of healing virtue moving from him to her, so he would have been in an entirely different situation from his disciples. The only experience I can compare it to is when I (and doubtless others as well) am preaching, many are politely listening, but some seem to be particularly tuned in and listening with, it seems to me, the operation of the Holy Spirit. People sitting in the church would not see this, but I can. Probably a poor comparison, but the best I can come up with.

Most definitely. In Luke's account he says "I felt power go out from me." I just found the disciples' response to his statement amusing. This is my second reading through the Greek New Testament, and I'm discovering there's a lot more subtle humor in our Bible than many of us ever knew.

WG wrote:

And, during this life, that freed-from-sin spirit is able to influence the still-sinful body to do the good thing, the loving thing, instead of the harmful thing.

Only one little quibble: the phrase "sinful body". The body itself isn't sinful or evil. It's the location where the sin that besets us dwells. Big difference, the kind that led people like Martin Luther to self-flagellation.

[jlisenbe]

The body itself isn't sinful or evil. It's the location where the sin that besets us dwells. Big difference, the kind that led people like Martin Luther to self-flagellation.

Very good point. Interesting that sin is seen as a "thing" of sorts (or nature?) rather than just that which we are tempted to do.

[waltero]

Our bodies are NOT evil or sinful.

That which is Born of the Flesh is Flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

Elsewhere he says that one who has died has been freed from sin.

That's right. The "one (Yashua)" who has died.

But while we live in this mortal body, we're subject to its fallibilities and limitations

I believe; We live by Yahshua's Unconditional infallibilities. We Must Believe!

Paul writes; I live then he adds yet not I. I am alive - I am not alive. He's contradicting himself. he doesn't understand himself. What he is saying is; I live, I am Soul, of Tarsus - what are you talking about, you can't be Saul of Tarsus...Saul of Tarsus hated Christ, he blasphemed him he persecuted him and his people - But he says; I am Saul of Tarsus - you can't be saul of Tarses - but I am Saul of Tarsus...it is impossible, you can not be saul of tarses!!!

"I live yet not I."

That's the Christian. The Christian is a man who can not understand himself. He's become a problem and an enigma to himself. Paul has only one way of explaining himself to himself; "I live yet not I," but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God. He only understands himself in the indwelling of Christ. And that's true for every Christian. You are not a Christian unless you're amazed at yourself. If you can understand yourself, you're not a Christian. If you can explain all you've done and what's happened to you - you are not a Christian. If you're here because of the things you've done, you are not a Christian. There is only one explanation of a Christain...he is what he is by the grace of God. I think we have become so familiar with the Scriptures, we sentimentalized them and we lost their Glory.

Do you know what is so amazing? The fact that we are Darkness (aka sin) and Jesus has shined his light upon us. Outstanding, so unfathomable, and Amazing. Heaven is going to be full of sinners (don't forget who you are or where you come from)...judgment day.

It is the Life of Jesus. Jesus already lived the life. Why are you trying, so hard, to live a life that only he can live?

[jlisenbe]

That's right. The "one (Yashua)" who has died.

Read in context, the "one" being spoken of is clearly not a reference to Jesus. It is a reference to individual Christians. So we could use, for example, the testimony of Paul in the Galatians passage you mentioned. The point is that we Christians have been freed from the bondage of sin by being united with Jesus in his death.

Heaven is going to be full of sinners

What do you mean by "sinners"?

[jlisenbe]

He only understands himself in the indwelling of Christ. And that's true for every Christian. You are not a Christian unless you're amazed at yourself. If you can understand yourself, you're not a Christian.

First you say the Christian "understands himself in the indwelling of Christ." Then you say that if a person understands himself, then that person is not a Christian.

I would say that a genuine Christian is a person who has fixed his soul's gaze on the saving power of Jesus only, living his life in faithful and grateful obedience, and has no faith in his own righteousness or goodness. Whether he is amazed at himself or not is beside the point, though God's ability to change us is certainly amazing. I just wouldn't take it as far as you did by making it a condition of salvation.

[dwashbur]

Very good point. Interesting that sin is seen as a "thing" of sorts (or nature?) rather than just that which we are tempted to do.

I have no idea. And neither Paul nor anybody else apostolic gave us any more details. So I prefer not to speculate.

Elsewhere he says that one who has died has been freed from sin.
That's right. The "one (Yashua)" who has died.

No. The context makes it clear that he is talking about regular humans. See my previous post.

It is the Life of Jesus. Jesus already lived the life. Why are you trying, so hard, to live a life that only he can live?

Because he said to.

[YGR]

What has been your main objective in quoting this verse?

[jlisenbe]

He's just pointing out some of the everyday, humorous events in the Gospels. There's no really serious, theological point.

[dwashbur]

YGR
What has been your main objective in quoting this verse?

I couldn't say for sure that there was one. I found it amusing and thought I'd share it.

[waltero]

First, you say the Christian "understands himself in the indwelling of Christ." Then you say that if a person understands himself, then that person is not a Christian.

That's why Paul preached Christ Crucified. He did not want to get into arguments are preach anything other than Christ Crucified. Having nothing doing with himself. So nothing of himself would get in the way of his preaching.

Because he said to.

Where do you find that? You can try and try and try, it is of no use.

I believe you guys are missing it. It is not living the life or trying to live Jesus' life. It is allowing Jesus to live his life in you. It is not about you. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. Take your wife for example - what she focuses on is not her life or not anything doing with her. her life is all about her husband and GOD, that's it. You don't have to Try. You don't have to do. Jesus has already done it. He has lived the life. Simply be about Jesus and set your "heart" on him. Don't worry about yourself or what it is you think you have to do, or what you want to do. let Jesus be about you and you be about him. When you're about Jesus it really doesn't matter what you do. He will be all about you. No worries, rest assured.

only he was able to perceiver the operation of healing virtue moving from him to her,

Look closer and tell me if you still think this to be true?

There's no really serious, theological point.

Are you sure?

[Wondergirl]

Take your wife for example - what she focuses on is not her life or not anything doing with her. her life is all about her husband and GOD, that's it.

That's not true at all! I've been a wife for a bit more than 55 years. I have focused on my husband's life, my children's lives, and my own life, weaving our various strengths and achievements together, with God's help, into a beautiful cloak of love for and service to others. This is what Christian wives do.

He has covered me with clothes of salvation and wrapped me with a coat of goodness…” (Isaiah 61:10)

"And we know that God causes all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” (Romans 8:28)

[jlisenbe]

That's why Paul preached Christ Crucified. He did not want to get into arguments are preach anything other than Christ Crucified.

How do you explain the book of Romans?

[dwashbur]

There's no really serious, theological point.
Are you sure?

Oh, for - since I'm the one who raised it, let me be clear: YES I AM SURE. I AM THE ONE WHO MADE THE NON-POINT SO YES, I KNOW WHAT I MEANT.

Honestly, this is getting absurd.

Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
Take your wife for example - what she focuses on is not her life or not anything doing with her. her life is all about her husband and GOD, that's it.

My wife focuses on me, on our grown kids, on her painting, on her job, on scuba diving, and whatever else fits her fancy. And I'm fine with that.

I sincerely pray you never marry. No woman should have to endure your atttitude.