[Wondergirl]

Free will allows each person to make a choice for good or for evil, is the ability to act at one's own discretion, is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

God gave us free will so we aren't His puppets, so we can make our own choices to do good or evil, i.e. to sin.

[jlisenbe]

But you said earlier we are subject to sin. If that is true, then how are we able to act at our own discretion? Paul's chapter 7 passage does not agree with you.

You must choose one or the other. You cannot logically take both.

[Wondergirl]

We all are subject to sin, to temptation, to doing bad things, evil things. Thank God for giving us the victory, that we recognize sin possibilities and, with His Son's help, have the discernment to say no to sin. No disagreement with Paul whatsoever.

[jlisenbe]

"We are all subject to sin." Oh? Then you don't have free will.

Earlier you ridiculed Paul's writing ("I didn't want to do that but golly gee whiz sin got into me and made me do it. I had no choice."), and yet now you claim to agree with it.

You seem to be confused.

Good night.

[Wondergirl]

"We are all subject to sin." Oh? Then you don't have free will.

We are all subject to sin occasion by occasion, by choice. We can sin or we can not sin. We are free to do either. That's free will.

Earlier you ridiculed Paul's writing ("I didn't want to do that but golly gee whiz sin got into me and made me do it. I had no choice."), and yet now you claim to agree with it.

I was poking fun at YOU and your misunderstanding, not at Paul.

You seem to be confused.

Good night.

No,you do not understand what free will is.

[jlisenbe]

We can sin or we can not sin.

Then we are not subject to sin. It's one or the other for, dear WG, you cannot be subject to the control of something else and yet still be free. Sorry, but you are violating a very simple concept. The founding fathers understood that we could not be subject to the King of England and yet still be free. They understood what you seem unwilling to acknowledge.

I did not misunderstand Paul. I simply quoted Paul without attaching any interpretation to it. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...34#post3882934

You are the one who claimed to understand what he meant. This is your quote.

He must not have believed that God gave mankind free will. Paul: "I didn't want to do that but golly gee whiz sin got into me and made me do it. I had no choice."

I do like the way this site preserves what is posted. It comes in handy, especially when someone has painted herself into a proverbial corner.

[Wondergirl]

Then we are not subject to sin. It's one or the other for, dear WG, you cannot be subject to the control of something else and yet still be free. Sorry, but you are violating a very simple concept. The founding fathers understood that we could not be subject to the King of England and yet still be free. They understood what you seem unwilling to acknowledge.

You are thinking of sin as the condition. I am writing about it as an act. Even Christians sin (the act of sinning).

[jlisenbe]

Then what is it that people are "subject" to? To be "subject to" has the meaning of being controlled by, so what is it that people are controlled by?

[Wondergirl]

Then what is it that people are "subject" to? To be "subject to" has the meaning of being controlled by, so what is it that people are controlled by?

We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin; we are subject to sinful actions, temptations to do wrong things. Jesus' love and sacrifice didn't take the sin condition away but did provide God's forgiveness for our daily acts of sin.

[jlisenbe]

We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin;

Then you are saying we are not free, for how can a "bound" person be considered free?

[Wondergirl]

You are not daily beset by temptations, urges to lie/cheat/steal/disrespect another, etc.?

[jlisenbe]

You are being evasive. You have just said we are all "bound", and yet you have claimed that we are "free". You need to explain how a bound person can be free.

If you can.

[Wondergirl]

You are being evasive. You have just said we are all "bound", and yet you have claimed that we are "free". You need to explain how a bound person can be free.

If you can.

Where did I say we are free?

[jlisenbe]

#45. "We are all subject to sin occasion by occasion, by choice. We can sin or we can not sin. We are free to do either. That's free will."


Honestly, I have no idea why you would ask that. You know full well that the core of your argument has been an appeal to free will, so to ask, "Where did I say we are free?" is really wild. But if you want to argue about it, I'll rephrase it.

You have just said we are all "bound", and yet you have claimed that we have free will and are free to choose what we do. You need to explain how a bound person can have freedom of will/freedom of choice.

My apologies for the "evasive garbage" comment. I get frustrated here with these round the Maypole discussions and I let it get to me. That was on me.

[waltero]

The whole "look around you" misses the question. It's not "what's going on," it's "who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"

WE Know that God gave Man Dominion and Authority, right?
here’s Luke 4:5–7: “And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, ‘To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.

Satan will have his hour: Revelation 20:7 (The binding of Satan implied restraint put upon his power and freedom of action; the loosing means the removing of these restraints.) here we find the vision picturing to us how Christendom will be invaded by the influences of the evil one.

I might not be touching on the subject matter. I'm still trying to figure it out myself.
I think it has more to do with God giving Human (body) All dominion and Authority... than having human (a body) giving that authority to Satan.

You have exalted Your word above all Your name

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Means; Humans are 100% in charge (God will not interfere unless we give him Authority) of the goings on in our body (life) in this World.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

[Wondergirl]

Meaning Humans are 100% in charge (God will not interfere unless we give him the Authority)of the goings on in this World.

Like I've been saying, God gave mankind free will to do good or to do evil in this world. Every day we see evidence that that's going on -- the newspapers are full of mankind's cruelty to mankind (and to animals), yet there are also reports of mankind's love and care. And God is watching....

[waltero]

God gave mankind free will to do good or to do evil in this world.

It has nothing to do with Mankind! It is not you (as Mankind) that can do anything in or of yourself.

mankind's love and care.

Need I inform you? Man's love is not God's love. We are either Sons of God or of the Devil!!! Yet we will all die a Human death.

Could you please drop your free-will malarkey... it's off-topic.


God has a new arrangement - Release dominion of sin over your life.

[Wondergirl]

It has nothing to do with Mankind! It is not you (as Mankind) that can do anything in or of yourself. Need I inform you?

Read Genesis 3.

Man's love is not God's love. We are either Sons of God or of the Devil!!! Yet we will all die a Human death.

Please stop mixing up your reasoning points, your metaphors!

Could you please drop your free-will malarkey... it's off-topic.

It's the whole ball of wax.

God has a new arrangement - Release dominion of sin over your life.

What does that have to do with this thread?

Plus, releasing the dominion of sin over my life says I do have free will and can make that decision.

[jlisenbe]

Like I've been saying, God gave mankind free will to do good or to do evil in this world

You've also been saying mankind is bound to sin. And as has been pointed out repeatedly, those two positions are contradictory. You have yet to explain how both can work together.

Plus, releasing the dominion of sin over my life says I do have free will and can make that decision.

That is at least going somewhat in the right direction. However, that cannot be extended to mankind in general.

[Wondergirl]

You've also been saying mankind is bound to sin. And as has been pointed out repeatedly, those two positions are contradictory. You have yet to explain how both can work together.

You're a member of mankind. Do you ever do mean or bad things, break a commandment, i.e., sin? By choice? Do you ever choose to do good?