[Wondergirl]

But while we live on this earth, believers or not, we each daily make choices to show love or hate, to do good or do evil.

[jlisenbe]

It's not quite that simple.

"We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."

"15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

[Wondergirl]

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Escape clause? ("It's not MY fault! The devil made me do it!")

[jlisenbe]

Take that up with Paul.

[Wondergirl]

Take that up with Paul.

He must not have believed that God gave mankind free will. Paul: "I didn't want to do that but golly gee whiz sin got into me and made me do it. I had no choice."

[jlisenbe]

So let's see. Paul, "must not have believed that God gave mankind free will," but you do. Do you really think we should take your view over his? What part of the NT did you write?

And you put your paraphrase of the Romans passage in quotation marks. Bad, bad, bad.

[Wondergirl]

So who got the free will thing?

My take on it: God gave us free will (cf. Genesis 3) but He and Satan are constantly trying to influence us to do good or to do evil.

[jlisenbe]

I don't think we have free will in the sense you see it. Non-Christians are subject to sin and under its control. That is a very clear teaching as was shown above. Jesus put it this way.

Jesus returned, “Believe me when I tell you that every man who commits sin is a slave. For a slave is no permanent part of a household, but a son is. If the Son, then, sets you free, you are really free!

Only the Son can set a person free. So it's hard to understand. It's more than just being influenced by whatever kingdom we are living in. There is an element of control that is exercised.

[Wondergirl]

I can choose to beat my young child or I can love him, read storybooks to him, take him on fun jaunts to parks and petting zoos. I can choose to gossip about my neighbor or I can invite her over for coffee and cookies and pleasant conversation. I can choose to take potshots at the neighborhood stray cat or I can humanely trap it and adopt it myself or take it to a nearby (well-run) cat shelter. The choice for each is mine.

We are ALL subject to sin, Christians as well as non-Christians. And even non-Christians can choose to love and not do evil.

[jlisenbe]

So we are subject to sin, and yet we have free will? Very interesting theory.

[Wondergirl]

Yes, we have the choice. Not a theory. It's reality.

[jlisenbe]

Not a good one. We are subject to sin and yet have free will. Well…ok.

[Wondergirl]

Not a good one. We are subject to sin and yet have free will. Well…ok.

You don't have free will?

Thanks to Jesus' love and sacrifice for us, we can ask Him for His help to say no to sin instead of yes.

[jlisenbe]

Humans are either subject to sin or owners of free will. Can't have it both ways. Now I do agree with your final statement, but it only applies to those who trust Him as Savior.

[Wondergirl]

What's your definition of free will?

[jlisenbe]

When an individual has sole authority over his/her own decisions.

[Wondergirl]

When an individual has sole authority over his/her own decisions.

And all humans don't have free will?

[jlisenbe]

Are humans subject to sin? You have said previously that people are. If that is true, and you said it is, then humans do not truly have free will, do they?

Outside of Christ, that is.

[Wondergirl]

Having free will is totally different from being subject to sin. They are two different concepts, not synonymous or even related.

[jlisenbe]

Free will eliminates being subject to anything other than self. Your position is illogical.