[Wondergirl]

It was called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, not the tree of good and evil. Big difference!

waltero, your post is full of contradictions. You don't even agree with yourself.

waltero said: How can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good?

WG asks: How then can people who have never heard of God choose to do good and be kind and loving?

[jlisenbe]

The Fall occurred because man used his free will to listen to Satan. No longer having free will (as we know it). How can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? We have become sin aka darkness. It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free.

This is a good paragraph.

We will always be Darkness (we will always be sinners). God does not make us light. Jesus (is that light) gives us light...Light overcomes our darkness. It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person.

Not so sure about this one. Jesus said, "You are the light of the world". Paul wrote, "that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world."

[waltero]

God does not make us light.

Maybe I should rephrase: God Does not change our Darkness into light. He does not turn us into light

JESUS TOOK OUR SIN SO WE COULD HAVE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

waltero, your post is full of contradictions.

This coming from somebody who believes the Bible is full of them as well.

WG asks: How then can people who have never heard of God choose to do good and be kind and loving?

We call that Sin!
Is as Filthy Rags.

We are empty Vessels. We are God-shaped containers made to receive and be filled with God! Full vessels are of no use. Righteous self is a greater hindrance than sinful self.

[jlisenbe]

Righteous self is a greater hindrance than sinful self.

Well said. It certainly seems to be true.

God does not turn our darkness into light??? "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

So I'm not real sure what you are trying to say.

[waltero]

God does not turn our darkness into light. God looks on us as "if" we are righteous.


If God is light then Darkness is the opposite of light.

who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

It's like God Added to himself.
Calling Darkness out into the light. and for that we will sing his wonderful praises for all eternity...thank God he lives!

[jlisenbe]

Why are you treating "light" and "righteousness" as though they are synonyms?

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." We don't simply appear to be righteous. We have, and have become, the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile."

"And because of him5 you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption."

"Since, therefore, nwe have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from othe wrath of God."

It leaves no room at all for boasting on our part, but rather a deep and glowing appreciation of all that God has done for us.

[Wondergirl]

This coming from somebody who believes the Bible is full of [contradictions] as well.

Not at all! The Bible has been translated many times. The translators have not always been true to their calling. Plus, the Bible is full of poetry, history, allegories, parables, prophecies -- all of which must be understood in their proper context (e.g., the hills did not literally clap their hands).

[jlisenbe]

Saying the Bible has been "translated many times" is rather misleading. Some translations do vary in generally minor ways, but that does not alter the reliability of our current translations. The truth is there for those who wish to pursue it.

[Wondergirl]

So you're not saying the Bible has contradictions, but rather that it has merely been corrupted in translation and is thus unreliable.

Nope, I'm not saying that.

BUT, the word "homosexual" was added to the Bible by translators centuries later. For instance, Leviticus 18:22 originally condemned pederasty/pedophilia (not homosexuality).

[jlisenbe]

I edited my post. I'm still not sure what your post about the Bible being translated many times by sometimes dishonest, inefficient, biased, or whatever "not always true to their calling" translators is supposed to mean. Perhaps you can clarify.

Actually, having many English translations is a positive.

[waltero]

We don't simply appear to be righteous.

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

any way you put it - we are darkness/and full of sin. We aren't changed into light. We are hidden in the body of christ Jesus.

I am a sinner and I can do nothing to change that. But Jesus can, that being the case it is all Jesus.

While living on Earth, I don't know anything about becoming Righteous. I only know of God's righteousness.
Far too many Christians believe they are righteous. I never want to be counted with the Pharisees (they declared themselves righteous), by considering myself righteous. I will leave that up to God. Jesus is righteous, it's not our righteousness we are seeking. We acquire Jesus' Righteousness. God looks on us as "if" we are righteous (not good enough?).

[jlisenbe]

Doesn't your last line heavily work against your idea?

OK. You dropped that line.

any way you put it

I haven't "put it". I have shown you scripture. If Jesus said we are the light of the world, then I can believe Him or believe you. Is that not correct?

it is all Jesus.

With that I can agree completely.

For what it's worth, this is how I see it. Jesus is like the sun. He generates His own light by virtue of His glory. We are like the moon. We reflect the light of God onto a dark world. It's not our light, but rather it's His light that shines through us. I can't speak for you, but I am not darkness and full of sin. I still have areas of darkness in my life, and I still have issues with sin, but I wouldn't say I am, "darkness/and full of sin." That is true of sinners, but not of Christians.

[jlisenbe]

"Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.'” John 8:12

[waltero]

I still have areas of darkness in my life, and I still have issues with sin, but I wouldn't say I am, "darkness/and full of sin." That is true of sinners, but not of Christians.

We move with the World, we operate as the World, we are sinners waiting to be sanctified.

[jlisenbe]

The light of Jesus.

If you have light, then are you in darkness?
If you have the righteousness of Christ, then are you full of sin?

[waltero]

My mistake. go ahead and consider yourself righteous.

We are Darkness shrouded in the Glory of God. We know where we come from! You act as if Darkness is a bad thing?
Darkness, sin, has been conquered...it has no power and is very much irrelevant. Darkness is no longer darkness, sin is no longer sin (for those who are in Christ Jesus) It's okay, you (being darkness) are no longer in the dark, you have the life and the light of Christ in you. If you think of it like that it is all the more amazing! God Added to himself. he brought darkness into the light. Darkness which could have nothing to do with God...and now darkness (which once lived unto death) is a friend of God...don't you get it??? I don't think we fully grasp what God has done for us. That's why I believe once we reach our final destination we will continually praise and sing to God's Glory for all Eternity. Some people might think that would get a little boring but I think it will be made something new every time we sing the same song. Just more and more grateful every time we open our mouths to give him praise.

At the same time, God used Man to defeat Satan.

[jlisenbe]

So darkness is not really darkness and sin is not really sin? I think I see now why you scarcely ever appeal to scripture.

go ahead and consider yourself righteous.

I consider myself to be whatever the Bible says I am.

I believe once we reach our final destination we will continually praise and sing to God's Glory for all Eternity. Some people might think that would get a little boring but I think it will be made something new every time we sing the same song. Just more and more grateful every time we open our mouths to give him praise.

With this I agree completely.

[Wondergirl]

That's why I believe once we reach our final destination we will continually praise and sing to God's Glory for all Eternity.

I totally disagree. God has bigger and less egotistical plans for us than us just standing as a choir and singing His praises forever.

[jlisenbe]

So how much singing do you think will take place? Will you not desire to praise Him endlessly, the one who gave His life for you?

[Wondergirl]

So how much singing do you think will take place? Will you not desire to praise Him endlessly, the one who gave His life for you?

Giving praise to God does not involve only singing.