[dwashbur]

jlisenbe
Very true. Even more of a problem is when you key a word in Strong's dictionary and see that it has several potential meanings, some of which are significantly different from the others. I have seen people just pick out the one they like the most as opposed to any serious consideration of which definition is the most appropriate. For those of us not really conversant with Greek/Hebrew, just looking at several reputable translations is probably the best approach. Just my opinion.

For sure. If the dictionary says it means "up" but also means "down" what's a reader to do? Context is everything. If the context requires a meaning "up", it's possible to just arbitrarily say "No, I think it means down in this spot" but if I can make it stick at all it'll only be with a select few people who hang on my every word (i.e. my kids). Those choices are easy. When it could mean "up" or possibly "up at an angle" or "up a certain amount" or "up and then immediately down again", that's not so easy. That's where comparing translations comes in.

For the more adventurous, there are a few more advanced tools that are keyed to Strong's numbers, such as Thayer' Greek Lexicon and Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon. Both are quite old and in the public domain, which is why publishers can do that. But in truth, they won't steer people too far wrong as long as they aren't used slavishly. The nice thing about them is, they put definitions in the immediate context of a verse. So Thayer's might say "In passages A B and C it means 'up' but in passages X Y and Z it means 'down'." That at least gives one a decent starting point for sorting out individual words. Now, some of the Greek letters and such may look familiar, but Hebrew? Allow me to quote an Episcopal priest I met once. Imagine this sentence in a deep, James Earl Jones voice, with a heavy Australian accent.

"The first time I saw Hebrew I said, this isn't even a language. Somebody cut up a bunch of worms and smashed them between the pages."

The non-warped reader will do well to ignore the worms.

Having said that, those tools have their biases, too. My all time favorite is in Genesis 1:2, where most of the Hebrew lexicons want to take what we know as "The Spirit of God", *ruakh Elohim*, and render it "a mighty wind". I wish I was making that up. The main thing to bear in mind is, the majority of these tools weren't made by people who have a high view of Scripture. So given the choice between the Spirit of God and a mighty wind, one's theology is going to color one's choice. On both sides. It's just a question of what makes more sense in the context. I've seen a lot of mighty winds, but I've never seen one brooding. Nearly all these guys were European, mostly German, so maybe the wind acts differently over there...

[jlisenbe]

All well said and taken. Still, Strong's can have its place. When I was in Bible College, there was a teacher who emphasized that logos means the written word and rhema means the spoken word. His point was that we should listen for God to speak to us. It took about five minutes in Strong's to see that he was really not right in his handling of the two Greek words. Rhema often does refer to a spoken word, but to confine logos to the written word (especially as the Bible) is not wise nor correct. So Strong's can frequently have a quite useful function.

[dwashbur]

I'm delighted to hear that. It's one of the most useful tools ever created, and as more resources get keyed to the numbers, it becomes even more useful.
I've never actually used it to any degree, but again, I'm more than a little warped.

[jlisenbe]

And it's all in the public domain which is great. We are living in the absolute golden age of Bible translations. Scholars such as you no longer need to travel to see manuscripts. They are largely photographed and available to see online. Amazing.

Warped can sometimes be a good thing.

[dwashbur]

jlisenbe
And it's all in the public domain which is great. We are living in the absolute golden age of Bible translations. Scholars such as you no longer need to travel to see manuscripts. They are largely photographed and available to see online. Amazing.

When I was finishing my BA in 1981 in Fort Wayne, Indiana, I discovered that a nearby Lutheran school had a copy of the original photographic edition of Codex Sinaiticus. I spent six months and who knows how many nickels photocopying as much of it as I could. I love living in the Age Of Instant Information.

[jlisenbe]

I love living in the Age Of Instant Information.

So very true. Of course the problem has arisen that it is probably easier to put out poor quality information than to put out high quality info, so we still have to pay due diligence.

[dwashbur]

Yes.
The best thing about the Internet is, it gives everybody an equal voice.
The worst thing about the Internet is, it gives everybody an equal voice.

[jlisenbe]

Well said.

I have a question for you. In Philippians we are told to let our requests be known unto God, τῇ προσευχῇ καὶ τῇ δεήσει. It's generally translated, "by prayer and supplication." How is προσευχῇ different from δεήσει?

[jlisenbe]

And one more. In Luke 10:2 we are told to δεήθητε to the Lord of the Harvest to send laborers into the field. How is δεήθητε different from other prayers?

[dwashbur]

jlisenbe
Well said.

I have a question for you. In Philippians we are told to let our requests be known unto God, τῇ προσευχῇ καὶ τῇ δεήσει. It's generally translated, "by prayer and supplication." How is προσευχῇ different from δεήσει?

Different in connotation, yes. προσευχῇ (proseukhē for those who don't read the script) is a generalized term that includes worship, supplication, adoration, general conversation, any type of talking with God. I consider it along the lines of the running conversation I have with Jesus that goes on all day when people think I'm talking to myself.

Anyway, deēsis (the dictionary form of δεήσει) is more narrow and specific. It's a request, asking for something, seeking help, that sort of thing.

There are a few more words that refer to prayer, some have special connotations like this, while others are just different words for the same thing, sort of like English "car" vs. "automobile". The biggest difference between them is the spelling.

These two, however, do carry senses of meaning that complement each other.

And one more. In Luke 10:2 we are told to δεήθητε to the Lord of the Harvest to send laborers into the field. How is δεήθητε different from other prayers?

See above.

I've always wanted to say that...

[jlisenbe]

"See above. I've always wanted to say that..." That made me laugh. Already today I have helped someone reach a goal!

If I understand correctly, δεήθητε and δεήσει come basically from same root, and thus have the same approximate meaning?

Thanks for the answers.

[dwashbur]

Correct. The former is a verb form, the latter is a noun. "I'm asking" vs. "I'm making a request."

[waltero]

Putting Ego aside for a moment, please.

Quote: dwashbur

It's not "what's going on, it's who is the actual authority

Since I'm the one who raised the question, I suspect I understand the "direction" better than you

I'm still sorting out what the rest of the questions are, never mind finding answers yet.

Are you really being honest here...What are you looking for?


"I understand the "direction" better than you" - Don't you see that - you (possibly the greek?) are the one who’s getting in your own way.

[jlisenbe]

Are you really being honest here...What are you looking for?

How many times do you go down that rabbit trail? Rather than questioning motives, also known as judging, why don't you simply contribute to the discussion? I gotta tell, most of the time no one here has much idea of what you are trying to say.

[waltero]

I have been speaking very few words.

Instead of trying to understand what it is, I am trying to say - why don't you read the Quotes above and try to understand what DW is saying?

[dwashbur]

Instead of trying to understand what it is, I am trying to say - why don't you read the Quotes above and try to understand what DW is saying?

Okay, I'll bite. What is I saying?

[jlisenbe]

Instead of trying to understand what it is, I am trying to say

Because I am replying to your comments. Do you not want your own beliefs to be understood???

Besides, I pretty well understand where DW is going with his comments. I don't have any questions there. It seems to me that he has been pretty clear. And I'm not trying to be hard on you. It is very difficult to follow your train of thought.

[waltero]

Here is a question for you:

who is the actual authority

Might have something doing with Authority?

It has absolutely nothing to do with Authority!!!

No, I think it might have something to do with the Authority of the Bible/Holy Spirit.

It has absolutely nothing to do with authority...never mind finding answers yet.

not open to receive?

I'm still sorting out what the rest of the questions are...but know, it has nothing to do with Authority!

Need to research the greek before one's intellect can process a full understanding?

Since I'm the one who raised the question

I understand better than you

...

You are not willing to take instructions. We are trying to teach you.

Do you not want your own beliefs to be understood???

NO!
In actuality, what you are asking is; Do you not want us to work out a proper understanding for you, of your own beliefs? No thanks. But thanks for asking.

When asking a question about; "who is the actual authority" - then to say; Nothing doing with Authority???

The "Question" posted in this thread was given under false pretense...no matter what "direction" you decide to take..."Who is in Charge"...you are in Charge. You've made that abundantly clear. You are in Control of your own understanding...I don't think that is a good thing, being that you are a mere human.

[jlisenbe]

NO!
In actuality, what you are asking is; Do you not want us to work out a proper understanding for you, of your own beliefs?

I asked, "Do you not want your own beliefs to be understood?" How that somehow, in your mind, morphed into, "Do you not want us to work out a proper understanding for you, of your own beliefs?" is just beyond me. That was not the intent at all.

Are you really saying you don't want your own beliefs to be understood?

[waltero]

That was not the intent at all

Yet, that is what goes on in these here parts.

We are not (maybe it's just me) dealing with "one's own beliefs" as it were.

why don't you simply contribute to the discussion?

I don't think in "the greek." Greek is not where it's at. You have proven my understanding of where the two of you are at.

There is no question here. The two of you are simply trying to expound on the Greek...in the guise of a question.

How else can you explain: Question - Who is in Charge? - who is the actual authority??? Suggestion; Should we look at "the Authority of the Bible/Spirit"? - Response: Walteroo, You refuse to learn or take instruction...It has nothing to do with Authority!

Then we have; "I'm still sorting out what the rest of the questions are, never mind finding answers."
When it was previously stated; You don't even understand the Question.

And you want to talk to me about confusion??? I know what's going on here. I have been telling you from the beginning. The more DW talks the more he proves himself to be in error.

Besides, I pretty well understand where DW is going with his comments. I don't have any questions there. It seems to me that he has been pretty clear.

Yes. It is pretty clear to me too. Posing a question - in an attempt to Educate, those of us (who will listen) on your superior Intellect.

Sorry - We Don't come to a proper understanding of Scripture by way of intellect...we are ill-equipped...it can't be done. It comes through Power in Authority...that which, your, Greek does not possess!