[jlisenbe]

Philosophy literally means “a love of wisdom."

Proverbs 4. Then he taught me, and he said to me,
“Take hold of my words with all your heart;
keep my commands, and you will live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or turn away from them.
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.
7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get[a] wisdom.
Though it cost all you have,[b] get understanding.
8 Cherish her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.

[jlisenbe]

As I said, searching Scripture -- in ANY language -- has nothing to do with a formal study of that country's philosophy.

Well said. Wycliffe Bible translators do a great job with translating the Bible into hundreds of indigenous languages, frequently for tribes with just a few thousand members.

Dear goodness, we are agreeing again. What a glorious week this has been!!

[waltero]

"Todays Greek reading - Todays Bible reading." The juxtaposition of these two images.

Quote: Todays Greek reading..."that kind of puts a very different spin on things"

Todays Greek reading - brought me to something I never noticed before;"who is in Charge."
What brought this question about? You, having Studied Greek, honestly don't know "who is in Charge"???
You have given your life to Christ Jesus,
you, most assuredly know who is in Charge!

"kind of puts a very different spin on things" What do you mean? the Greek or what Saten said? Could it be that you simply lost yourself while in the greek? Or by saying - "Today's Greek reading" - presents this as an unusual question, that demands an unusual answer?

Todays Bible (spiritual) reading - Always tells me that God is in Charge. "Putting a very different spin" in life.
"When someone says God put so and so in that office. Sounds like maybe it was the other guy." Sure, I suppose that might be, only while listening to the Greek. Reading the Bible is God speaking. It appears that reading the Greek puts a very different spin on things when someone (that someone being Satan) says..

has nothing to do with a formal study of that country's philosophy

Christianity was born into a world steeped in Greek thinking. Greek philosophy.

Dear goodness, we are agreeing again.

now your scaring me.

It's about the Spirit. It is all Spirit. You are only interested in interpretation... Continually going at it with the many different interpretations. You have given yourself over to interpretation of Language, scripture, writers, etc. The proof is in these posts. continually filled with arguments about "in which way it is interpreted." It can only be interpreted with that of the HolySpirit.

It is about the Spirit and having the Word of God that lives in you. Your Greek Learning, your greek reading, and your greek (or otherwise) intellect isn't going to get you there.

[jlisenbe]

It is about the Spirit and having the Word of God that lives in us.

Is that your interpretation? (definition of "interpret": to explain the meaning of, or to understand)

You can believe if you wish that DW is a gross heretic. That is, I suppose, your interpretation of his words, but I think you have misinterpreted his post. His question essentially centered around the devil saying he had authority over the kingdoms of the world. Jesus did not contradict that statement. So DW simply asked what we thought of that. Now note that the KJV ENGLISH translation agrees with that. 5[d]Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours."

Paul seemed to agree with that idea in 2 Cor. 4. "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Thankfully for us, in Colossians Paul tells us that we Christians have been transferred from the domain of darkness into the Kingdom of His beloved Son.

So DW was not making something up or being influenced by Greek philosophy. But you are most welcome to pursue your interpretation of his words, and your interpretation of the Luke passage.

now your scaring me.

It kind of scares me too, and I imagine it scares WG. It is unusual!

[Wondergirl]

waltero -- And the Bible in English is not fraught with awkward and even incorrect understandings of words and phrases, thus of its teachings?

[waltero]

Every time you read your English/[greek] Bible, you are reading "some other Joe Smuckatelli's" translation. To translate is not the same as to interpret.

I'm not looking for Either. It is Spirit, Only God is able to interpret /translate for you. It is not in a person's ability to project his translation or interpretation to others. It comes through life...It is the Life...living the life. Will of the Heart.

[Wondergirl]

I'm not looking for Either. It is Spirit, Only God is able to interpret /translate for you. It is not in a person's ability to project his translation or interpretation to others. It comes through life...It is the Life...living the life.

Why then are there pastors/ministers/priests who explain God's love and purpose to parishioners? Why then are there Bible classes where Christians gather to study and understand the Bible's teachings?

[waltero]

Seems as if (hanging around here) all of you are seeking and or knowing your own interpretation/translation. And Satan said...what up with dat? It would be futile to search the proper interpretation of what satan said...right? doesn't matter what satan says, it is all lies. Only hear Jesus responce.

You haven't understood a word I've said.

In Short; It would have been more agreeable if he started off with; Today's Bible reading. LESS ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION!

[jlisenbe]

waltero -- And the Bible in English is not fraught with awkward and even incorrect understandings of words and phrases, thus of its teachings?

Anndddd just like that we are back to disagreeing.

Walter, I agree with you in the sense that only the Spirit of God can shine a proper light on His Word. But words still have meaning. When the Sadducees tried to corner Jesus with a question about which brother would be the wife of the six brothers who died, he replied by quoting the Word. "I am the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob." And then He interpreted it. "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living." And He then told them they were very much mistaken. He often discussed the teachings of the Bible.

On another occasion, which has been discussed here, the Pharisees asked Him about the teaching of Moses on divorce. Jesus replied by appealing to the first statement in the Bible about marriage, and then gave an interpretation of it. "What God has joined together, let not man put asunder." So Jesus constantly taught people so they could have a better understanding of the Word of God. But yes, if the Holy Spirit does not give enlightenment, then all is lost. I don't see it as a contest between teaching, discussing, and enlightenment. They work together, and I have frequently received fresh insight from God in the middle of a discussion of the Bible.

[Wondergirl]

WG to waltero -- And the Bible in English is not fraught with awkward and even incorrect understandings of words and phrases, thus of its teachings?

Anndddd just like that we are back to disagreeing.

No, we aren't. I wasn't clear. It's those who read the Bible, especially on their own with no help and input from others -- and try to understand it on their own -- who have problems.

[jlisenbe]

It's those who read the Bible, especially on their own with no help and input from others -- and try to understand it on their own -- who have problems.

I would come closer to agreeing with that, but not completely. Even in your own faith, Martin Luther largely (not completely) worked on his own to arrive at the correct interpretation of the Bible as regards faith.

BTW, I'm reading a book on Luther now. I know that will please you. It's about 450 pages so it'll take me a month, but so far it has been very good.

[waltero]

Seems as if (hanging around here) all of you are seeking and or knowing your own interpretation/translation. "And Satan said"...what up with dat? It would be futile to search the proper interpretation of what satan said...right? doesn't matter what satan says. knowing that he is all lies...Here, if proof were wanted, we have evidence that all that passed in the Temptation was in the region of which the spirit, and not the senses, takes cognizance.

the Bible in English is not fraught with awkward and even incorrect understandings of words and phrases, thus of its teachings?

This is not something that somebody can teach...and there lies the problem. We (like people throughout time) only need knowledge of Sacrifice, and believe! It is a person's life that speaks to others. Doctrine is just a bunch of papers. It is nice to know "of"Jesus, but we need know (see) the Man Jesus.

You haven't understood a word I've said. it really had nothing to do with Interpretation...all the while, that being the main focus!

In Short; It would have been more agreeable if WD started off with; Today's Bible reading. LESS ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION! Interpretation is the Enemy, we all lose.

Thank you all. I am pleased that God provided so many different openings for me to understand. It has strengthened my resolve. We can think what we like about the headliner, in this Post. It might not be for our understanding...It was meant for DW (or just me), regardless of what we think or think we know or understand. I was hoping to see more from Athos. It is good to see that the old Gang is still here. Still lost on the sidelines...Just know, I'm right here with you...although I don't want to be (on the sideline), to be Honest.

A big Thanks go's out to DW! Thanks for posting.

[jlisenbe]

Doctrine is just a bunch of papers

You do realize that most of what you just posted qualifies as "doctrine"? (Definition of doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group) You have just stated a set of beliefs. Hence, doctrine.

You haven't understood a word I've said. it really had nothing to do with Interpretation...Interpretation is the Enemy, we all lose.

Sorry Walter, but if you really believe that, then you don't understand what "interpretation" means. What you are posting is your interpretation of how we are to handle the Bible. You cannot possibly read the Bible without attempting to interpret, and certainly with the light of the Spirit, what the meaning is of what you are reading. And then your understandings begin to come together as doctrine, which is to say "beliefs". EVERYONE does it. You can't make sense of anything without doing it.

Now perhaps you don't read or value the Bible? Honest question. Not trying to be ugly at all.

"kind of puts a very different spin on things" What do you mean? the Greek or what Saten said?

Perfect example. DW made a statement, and you asked the very common sense question, "What do you mean?" You ask that because you are trying to interpret his statement, to make sense of it. That's why I say everyone does it. You cannot read without interpreting what you are reading.

[waltero]

Maybe if you see it as; a non-intellectual (Me) listening to all you intellectuals.
Trying to reason yourself into the Christian faith....Plagues this Forum and all who engage. believing that by clear thinking, you can think yourself from a rationalist or atheistical position into the Christian position. With the Heart, men believe unto righteousness. you can not do it merely by the process of intellectual reasoning. The mere repetitious of a formula doesn't save a man. He must believe in his heart. There is danger in the believing the Doctrines of Salvation, instead of believing in the Person, and having a living faith in him. It is one thing to accept a body of doctrine with your mind it is another thing to have a saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. You can be a perfectly orthodox theologian and yet have no spiritual life at all. We are not saved in believing in doctrine, we are saved by believing in a person. you must know the truth about him but you musent believe the truth about him without believing in him. don't allow the Doctrine to conceal the person. He is the Savoir, it is he that does the saving.

Our belief Must be with the Heart, not merely with the intellect...Intellect; It Starts there but then it must stop there
.
You have been going at this for years, getting nowhere.

God doesn't go merely by what a man says. God doesn't go by intellectual belief and apprehension. God knows the state of a Man's Heart. Saving faith isn't something that can't be taught.

Reading, after a certain age, diverts the mind too much from its creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking.” [ Einstein]

[dwashbur]

I'm not looking for Either. It is Spirit, Only God is able to interpret /translate for you. It is not in a person's ability to project his translation or interpretation to others. It comes through life...It is the Life...living the life. Will of the Heart.

Too detailed. Please be more vague.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Even the Spirit had to have something to work with at creation, which is why God had to create a lump of dough for the Spirit to form.
Are you saying anyone who tries to understand the Scriptures more deeply is going to "project his translation or interpretation" rather than honestly seek the answers? That's beyond arrogant, and frankly insulting. I don't know who you think you are.
I have sought the Spirit's guidance in understanding the Scriptures for over 50 years. In this instance, I asked a simple question and you came at me like an angry cat. I don't know what your problem is, but get off my back.

[jlisenbe]

Our belief Must be with the Heart, not merely with the intellect...Intellect; It Starts there but then it must stop there

I would generally agree with that since you include that the battle of the mind must be considered.
.

You have been going at this for years, getting nowhere.

Very true. It bothers me and makes me wonder what the point is. Truthfully, virtually no one reads these posts anyway.

The written word is our anchor. The Spirit gives the light for sure, but without the written word we would be prone to going off in a thousand different directions. Something has to be objective, and that something is the Bible.

Too detailed. Please be more vague.

This tongue-in-cheek remark is pretty accurate. I sometimes have a lot of trouble trying to figure out where Walter is going. I think I agree with at least some of what he is saying, but it tends to be a problem trying to follow his train of thought. And that is not a harsh criticism, but just an observation.

[waltero]

you came at me like an angry cat.

I never mentioned your name until long after you made comment. How do I pose a threat to your life's work?

Are you saying anyone who tries to understand the Scriptures more deeply is going to "project his translation or interpretation" rather than honestly seek the answers?

ah yah, Because that is what we do here. Enter any thread and you will see. we become so nervous for the word instead of preaching it instead of asserting it instead of proclaiming we argue. Maybe you missed my last post. That should better explain what I meant by this.


In light of DW's Response (now we know). It might be [more of] a question of Authority.

Today's Greek reading

Believing that the greek has [more] authority or the same authority as the Bible, as a whole? Placing the Greek above (or equal) the Bible, so to speak. What would you think if somebody was to enter and say, "Today's Hebrew reading." your first inclination might be - she is of Jewish origin - error-prone (not just because a woman). The same thing with a Catholic - Today's Latin reading - initial thought; somethings got to be askew, or I don't know Latin...out of my league.

The Greek is the new testament, Hebrew being the old while Christians stick with the whole person, the entire Bible, as a whole, Old and new testament. The "Bible" is the whole deal. Stating, "Greek reading" sounds like divorcing the Lord Jesus Christ from the Bible (old testament)...The Apostles preached the Lord Jesus Christ and then in the light of that, they brought in the scriptures.  But they didn't start by asking them to accept the authority of the scriptures. The greek has no claim on the New Testament. It's the whole case that the Bible claimed for itself.

[jlisenbe]

No one has said or suggested that the Greek NT has more authority than the Bible. Does it have the same authority? Well, yes since it IS the Bible. So if you read the NT in English, and DW reads it in Greek, you are reading, for all purposes, the same NT and thus from the same Bible. And if you read the OT in English, another person reads it in Spanish, and someone else reads it in Hebrew, it is still the same Bible carrying the same authority.

ah yah, Because that is what we do here. Enter any thread and you will see. we become so nervous for the word instead of preaching it instead of asserting it instead of proclaiming we argue.

That fairly well describes it. The way this SHOULD work is for everyone to come here with a heart open to seeing things differently. To say it doesn't work that way is an understatement. For instance, there is no day of judgment coming, and dozens of clear statements from the NT to the contrary be hanged! There can be no day of judgment coming because...well, just because. And on and on it goes. It is a fruitless enterprise to be sure other than it helps me clarify my own beliefs. I am generally relieved to find that there are many positions held here for which there is either scant support, or no support at all. My regard for liberal theology has rightly been greatly diminished. From aionios to arsenokoite, it is largely a vain attempt to dispute what is plainly true.

And asking questions in the hope of clarifying positions seems to be a non-starter. The person, realizing the peril it might present to his/her position, simply ignores it. But that's the only real way of making progress, to exchange questions and analyze responses. It reminds me of this incident. 24 Jesus said to them, “I will also ask you one [a]thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the [b]people; for they all regard John as a prophet.”

I do commend your honesty. Your use of the inclusive pronoun "we" is altogether correct. And you at least have no issue with openly proclaiming your beliefs. Now that is sometimes in a fairly incomprehensible manner, but at least you are willing to put it out there.

[waltero]

Today's Greek reading

Infers NT, ONLY.

brought me to something.

You won't find the answer in the greek. You (unbeknownst to you) might just be "projecting your translation or interpretation" rather than honestly seek the answers

Does it have the same authority? Well, yes since it IS the Bible.

NO, since it only refers to the NT. The Greek can bring you questions, the Bible (NT, OT) will bring you answers. The Bible in its entirety is most important.

When I Read "Todays Greek reading." I get the impression something is amiss. Might be too much greek? Many Christians give themselves over to the NT only. The NT (alone) should not be looked upon as the "Bible." NT, OT is the whole case that the Bible claimed for itself.

Might I add; When directing a question, as you did, you are only speaking to NT believers. A Jew might [better] represent an answer you are searching for. Chances are, a Jew would not engage in (greek) NT question.

Anybody have any thoughts on it?

Yes (You Asked).

Habakkuk 1:12 Lord, you appointed them (Chaldeans, aka Babylon) to execute judgment. He also talks about how the Kingdoms of this world are living in Satan's house (or something to that effect).

[waltero]

Jesus said to them, “I will also ask you one [a]thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the [b]people; for they all regard John as a prophet.”

I just read this the other day. I was thinking, could there be more to this than meets the eye? Might it be the first time Jesus didn't give an Answer to a question? Any chance you might be able to shed some light on this? Thought it strange you brought it up at the same time I found myself focusing on it.