[jlisenbe]

Or if those experts have an agenda to promote.

And you know that they do? In the business of translations, producing a corrupted version which is plainly tainted by an "agenda" would be widely known fairly soon.

[Wondergirl]

And you know that they do? In the business of translations, producing a corrupted version which is plainly tainted by an "agenda" would be widely known fairly soon.

And it was -- and was accepted (and not challenged) because many Christians wanted to believe that interpretation.

[jlisenbe]

Be specific.

[Wondergirl]

One is Paul's coined word, arsenokoitai.

[jlisenbe]

There is an agenda on display about that word alright, but it's not the translators. It's you. No major translation since the days of the KJV renders it as anything other than what is should be rendered as which is homosexual or words to that effect. It comes from two Greek words, "men" and "bed". Not too hard to figure that one out.

But you don't even need Paul's scripture. Jesus settled the issue when He plainly described marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Since sex is only allowed within marriage, then the matter is decided.

There is no definite evidence that Paul coined the term.

[Wondergirl]

Nope, temple or shrine prostitute, as Paul put the two words together, even as boy molester.
https://www.gaychristian101.com/what...enokoitai.html

[jlisenbe]

To say that is a minority position would be the understatement of the year. It is ridiculous and to see that it is on a gay website really settles the issue. Talk about having an agenda???

There is nothing about boy in the two words. "Arsyn" is a Greek word for man. "Koite" is a Greek word for bed that sometimes carries sexual connotations with it. Your speculation is just silliness driven by your own agenda.

Interestingly, you had no comment on this. It really closes the door on sex between two individuals of the same gender. "But you don't even need Paul's scripture. Jesus settled the issue when He plainly described marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Since sex is only allowed within marriage, then the matter is decided."

Additionally, there is not a single instance in the Bible of same-gender sex being approved. It simply is not there.

[Wondergirl]

The centurion and his servant whom Paul encountered were very likely a gay couple. Homosexuality was very common in the Greek world back then.

[dwashbur]

There is no definite evidence that Paul coined the term.

Wrong. The word appears nowhere else before Paul, and he was not above inventing words. They did that sort of thing, much like modern German.

The word doesn't mean "bed", it means "rape" as our culture would define its reference. Basically, it's master-slave pederasty.

It has nothing to do with what we call homosexuality today. The fundamental principle behind it was abuse of power.

Jesus didn't define marriage. He condemned divorce for frivolous reasons. He said, what God has joined together, do not sunder. Yet Christians today want to sunder thousands upon thousands of loving bonds because they don't like the plumbing involved. For starters, what they do is none of your business. Or mine. Or WG's or Joe Blow's. It's their business and it's between them and God.

Thanks for shutting down walteroo. Masterfully done and well explained. I appreciate it.

[jlisenbe]

1. The vast part of what was written prior to Paul has disappeared, so it's impossible to say it was not used until Paul used it. Now your point is well taken, but it remains true that it cannot be definitely established that Paul invented the term.

2. As to the meaning of "koite", J. H. Thayer does not agree with you. I can only think that you are descibing "arsenokoite" as opposed to only "koite". Otherwise, your statement that koite means rape is really hard to grasp. But even if you were referring to "arsenokoite", your understanding of the word is most likely incorrect. No major translation agrees with you.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2845: κοίτη

κοίτη, κοίτης, ἡ (ΚΑΩ, ΚΑΙΩ, κεῖμαι akin to κοιμάω); from Homer, Odyssey 19, 341 down; the Sept. chiefly for מִשְׁכָּב, also for שְׁכָבָה etc.;a. a place for lying down, resting, sleeping in; a bed, couch: εἰς τήν κοίτην (see εἰμί, V. 2 a.) εἰσιν, Luke 11:7.
b. specifically, the marriage-bed, as in the Tragg.: τήν κοίτην μιαίνειν, of adultery (Josephus, Antiquities 2, 4, 5; Plutarch, de fluv. 8, 3), Hebrews 13:4.
c. cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful (Leviticus 15:4f, 21-25, etc.; Wis. 3:13, 16; Euripides, Med. 152; Alc. 249): plural sexual intercourse (see περιπατέω, b. α.), Romans 13:13 (A. V. chambering); by metonymy, of the cause for the effect we have the peculiar expression κοίτην ἔχειν ἐκ τίνος, to have conceived by a man, Romans 9:10; κοίτη σπέρματος, Leviticus 15:16; Leviticus 22:4; Leviticus 18:20, 23 (here κοίτη εἰς σπερματισμόν); on these phrases cf. Fritzsche, Commentary on Romans 2, p. 291f

3. As to marriage, what Jesus said in Matthew 19 is a restatement of God's initial definition and description in Genesis. It very plainly describes a union between a "man" and his "wife". It is as clear a definition of marriage as a person can imagine.

And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? 6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Yes, what other people do is their own business. No one here has tried to tell anyone else what to do. We are discussing Bible translations and God's view of marriage. In all of the Bible, there is not a single instance of same-gender sex, much less of gay marriage, upon which God places His stamp of approval. Marriage is never, ever described as anything other than a union between a man and a woman, and I would sincerely suggest that you be very careful in trying to propose otherwise. We will all give an account, and for you to seem to stand in opposition to what Jesus said is alarming. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent.

4. Not real sure where Walter is coming from. I think your study of Greek is to be lauded.

The centurion and his servant whom Paul encountered were very likely a gay couple

I know of no place where Paul ever encountered a centurion who was accompanied by a servant. Now Jesus did, but the only way to get the idea that they were lovers is to simply read your own prejudices into the account. I suspect that is exactly what you are doing. There is not a shred of evidence in the story to lead a person to reach that conclusion. But even at that, if Paul or Jesus had indeed encountered a centurion with a servant who was providing sexual services for him, it is extraordinary to conclude that they were approving of that arrangement simply by meeting the person. It is just 100% conjecture driven by your own agenda. You are doing exactly what you are accusing scholars of doing.

This is what the pro-gay advocates are reduced to doing. "Well, maybe this," or "Perhaps that." There is never anything definite, and the many statements in the Bible to the contrary have to be gotten around by the use of linguistic calisthenics.

[waltero]

@JL:

Today's Greek reading brought me to something I never noticed before.

Do you understand why this was brought up? Look at you all...Debating the "Greek understanding"...how foolish is that?
Is this a valid question, for a self-proclaimed Christain to ask? How are you going to give an answer to this (who is in Charge)? Is this a question for only those who study and understand the Greek? somebody, who read the entire Bible, who's been studying it for over 1 yr...and this in question? Maybe somebody would be better off if they seek spiritual reading, instead of Greek! They should read it themselves as opposed to having a Greek read it to them (you think?)

You misunderstood my earlier statement. I was simply asking where it(this topic)was coming from (I already knew)...Now, all can see.
But enough with that.

So the original authors of the New Testament books were all believers in Greek philosophy? After all, they're the ones who wrote IN GREEK. Are they guilty?

It would be naïve to think that Greek religious or spiritual ideas never, in any way, made inroads into the Judeo-Christian community.

[Wondergirl]

@JL: Do you understand why this was brought up? Look at you all...Debating the "Greek understanding"...how foolish is that?

dwashbur was not talking about the "Greek understanding" or Greek philosophy. The NT was originally written in the Greek language. dwashbur has studied that language for many years and enjoys/learns from reading NT books in the original Greek.

[Wondergirl]

I know of no place where Paul ever encountered a centurion who was accompanied by a servant. Now Jesus did,

I apologize. Yes, Jesus, not Paul. I was trying to post here while helping a very upset friend figure out how to get relief for a pinched nerve in her neck.

[jlisenbe]

The centurion Jesus spoke with was not accompanied by his servant. The servant was at home ill. Jesus would have had no way (naturally speaking) of knowing what the relationship was. On top of that, the centurion was commended by the Jewish leadership. It is unlikely in the extreme that they would have done so knowing that he was in a homosexual relationship with the servant. So I just think your suggestion that they were "very likely a gay couple" is without any support at all.

That's my primary objection to much of what the pro-gay side of the argument has to say. It is always just conjecture supported by suppositions which are founded upon speculation. There is nothing of substance.

Look at you all...Debating the "Greek understanding"...how foolish is that?
Is this a valid question, for a self-proclaimed Christain to ask?

Actually, it's extremely foolish NOT to look at these issues. The questions are quite valid.

Walter, you seem to be irritated about something, but I don't know what it is. No one has said anything about "Greek philosophy" other than you. It wasn't even in the conversation, so I just can't figure out what has you out of sorts.

[waltero]

Look at you all...Debating the "Greek understanding"...how foolish is that?
Actually, it's extremely foolish NOT to look at these issues.

You become more in tune with the debate than with truth.
The answer is right in front of you. You bypass the Answer and continue to debate on who knows what!

Today's Greek reading brought me to something
No one has said anything about "Greek philosophy" other than you.

I asked a Simple Question - "Is there Nothing more to it?."
You simply say "No." I think there might be more to it.

Repeat: It would be naïve to think that Greek religious or spiritual ideas never, in any way, made inroads into the Judeo-Christian community.

But let us get off that for the moment, if you please.
That seems to be an ongoing thing with you and WG...you post just to argue. You both have what you believe to be truth, in your head and there is no changing that...Okay then.

Question:

Wait

is this a sudden relapse or something? Or is your Greek messing with you?

WHO is in charge??

 Men, whether they will it or not, are working out God's purposes, advancing his designs, accomplishing the ends that he desires.

Except Jesus didn't contradict him.

I know why you expect this...This site is commonplace...affirming the opposite of.

He only addressed the question of worship.

...and there is your Answer.

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only."

There is no attribute so essential to God as this. It is for his holiness, more than for anything else, that his creatures worship him.

WHO is in charge

You Honestly don't know? Does it Matter?

Satan says HE has authority over the nations/kingdoms of the Earth and they're his to give to whomever he chooses.
"who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"

Jesus has nothing to do with this World. His sight is set on High, aka God. Jesus talks about the people of this World coming to him.

I haven't seen a single commentary tackle this question.

There is a good reason for that...those who know Jesus know who's in Control.

I confess I've been reading that passage since I was 4 years old and never noticed this before. Anybody have any thoughts on it?

Yeah, Don't give it a second thought.  we know that Satan is a liar and he is the Father of lies. Focus on the things above. This World and the things of this World are going to pass away...all of it is death.

Thanks for shutting down walteroo.

That's my point -Today's Greek reading...Doesn't seek truth, he only wants to discuss it in Greek. Thinking he is Quite possibly, the foremost authority (this site) on Jesus and the Christian Greek Scriptures.

[Wondergirl]

Men, whether they will it or not, are working out God's purposes, advancing his designs, accomplishing the ends that he desires.

And women aren't? (Actually, they, with empathy and unselfish love, are doing as much as or more than men are.)

[waltero]

doing as much as or more than men are

Yah, that's it. We're all about, who does the most!
After all, it has everything to do with us [doing]...Not!!!

Actually, they are doing as much as or more than men are.

Actually that's very Sad.

they, with empathy and unselfish love

Replace "empathy and unselfish love ." with Jesus, then "they" would have something. OR - Actually, "he(that be a man)" with empathy and unselfish love - might give them the edge...them as in men ;-)

I do believe, just as Jesus Presents us to the Father, Husbands will present their spouse to Jesus... that might just be me though.

You do understand that Men include Women?

[Wondergirl]

Yah, that's it. We're all about, who does the most!
After all, it has everything to do with us [doing]...Not!!!

You didn't mention women, just men DOING ... "working out God's purposes, advancing his designs, accomplishing the ends that he desires."

Are you a Witness or LDS?

[jlisenbe]

That's my point -Today's Greek reading...Doesn't seek truth, he only wants to discuss it in Greek.

I don't think that's true. I don't always agree with DW, but he does seek the truth.

Thinking he is Quite possibly, the foremost authority (this site) on...the Christian Greek Scriptures.

Well...he certainly is.

[waltero]

That's my point -Today's Greek reading...Doesn't seek truth, he only wants to discuss Greek.
he does seek the truth.

If that is true, how do you explain

Thanks for shutting down walteroo.

this?

Well...he certainly is.

Sounds like somebody wanting to be recognized...has little too nothing to do with truth that is found in the Spirit.

It runs along the same lines as - I want to feed the poor, but I'll have to take a cooking class before I can get with it.