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Athos · Mar 7, 2022, 04:16 PM

As a historical document, the Bible's Old Testament is priceless. As a working guide to morality and modern life it’s a catastrophe.

Wondergirl · Mar 9, 2022, 01:26 PM

The Old Testament only says "No, don't do that." One's immediate thought upon being told no is, "How can I get around that and still accomplish my objective?"

Athos · Mar 9, 2022, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The Old Testament only says "No, don't do that." One's immediate thought upon being told no is, "How can I get around that and still accomplish my objective?"

Good point. Another thing about being told no is that the thing being prohibited is happening, else why prohibit it?

dwashbur · Mar 9, 2022, 07:50 PM

Athos
Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
The Old Testament only says "No, don't do that." One's immediate thought upon being told no is, "How can I get around that and still accomplish my objective?"
Good point. Another thing about being told no is that the thing being prohibited is happening, else why prohibit it?

Also a good point. A British miniseries in 1974 called Moses The Lawgiver sort of took this approach. When Moses found a couple cheating on their spouses, for example, he gave them what-for and said "You must not commit adultery".
And we know the people had a tendency to violate the first three commandments, because they were doing just that while Moses was getting the tablets.
Truth really is stranger than fiction.

Athos · Mar 10, 2022, 01:26 AM

I always wondered about "Honor thy Father and thy Mother". Was that really necessary among all those dos and don'ts? Hmm...

Wondergirl · Mar 10, 2022, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Athos

I always wondered about "Honor thy Father and thy Mother". Was that really necessary among all those dos and don'ts? Hmm...

And why are eight of the ten "Thou shalt not..." while the third and fourth are positive?

Athos · Mar 10, 2022, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And why are eight of the ten "Thou shalt not..." while the third and fourth are positive?

Those Hebrews musta been a bad bunch - fighting the Philistines and Canaanites and that business at the walls of Jericho. OTOH, they wrote great poetry and their women were pretty and powerful.

dwashbur · Mar 14, 2022, 07:11 PM

Athos
I always wondered about "Honor thy Father and thy Mother". Was that really necessary among all those dos and don'ts? Hmm...

A lot is wrapped up in how one defines "honor" as a verb.

Wondergirl · Mar 14, 2022, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

A lot is wrapped up in how one defines "honor" as a verb.

I was always taught it doesn't mean obey. What thinkest thou?

dwashbur · Mar 15, 2022, 11:09 AM

I was always taught it doesn't mean obey. What thinkest thou?

I agree. If I may coin a word, the Hebrew essentially means "biggify". Hold them up with reverence and respect. It doesn't necessarily mean "obey blindly".
I'm not sure Moses could have envisioned some of the "parenting" that goes on today, or there might have been some explicit exceptions. Yet even abusive parents can be shown proper respect, as long as it's done from a distance. Honoring also doesn't necessarily mean tolerating.
Personal example: my mother-in-law was just about the unhappiest person I ever knew. She revealed it mostly in her words, because she found something wrong with everything. In particular she didn't like me. She inflicted so much hurt on my wife that it required us getting divorced for a while for her to deal with all of it.
When I was around her, I showed proper respect and politeness regardless of the barbs she was forever throwing at me. The last thing she said to me on her death-bed was a potshot about money. In response, I was reading Psalm 91 aloud as she expired. I couldn't stand her and I didn't mourn her. But I do believe I honored her.

For what it's worth.

Wondergirl · Mar 15, 2022, 11:28 AM

Did we have the same mother-in-law, dwashbur?!

And thank you for that wonderful explanation! I will c/p it and put it (with proper attribution, of course) into my journal of literary treasures.

Athos · Mar 16, 2022, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

If I may coin a word, the Hebrew essentially means "biggify". Hold them up with reverence and respect.

"Biggify" sounds like a word Trump would use. In any case, your word is pretty much the same as the word "honor".

dwashbur · Mar 18, 2022, 10:34 PM

"Biggify" sounds like a word Trump would use. In any case, your word is pretty much the same as the word "honor".

Yeah, I was sort of wincing as I came up with it for that reason. But it's about the most "literal" rendering of the Hebrew word that I could come up with.

Scenario:
Mean old man screams at neighbor who's walking by. He's rude, profane, and vicious.

Response 1: Why don't you just go back in side you miserable old coot? Nobody's bothering you, get the stick out of your goozyx and just shut up.

Response 2: Smile and nod and keep walking.

"Respect your elders". Which response constitutes respect or honor in this scenario?

Did we have the same mother-in-law, dwashbur?!

Idunno, did you marry a guy named John McCloskey? (Kathy's only brother) Hee hee

Athos · Mar 19, 2022, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

"Respect your elders". Which response constitutes respect or honor in this scenario?

Neither.

Response #1 is obviously disrespectful.
Response #2 is also disrespectful. A respectful response would have been a calm approach to the elderly man re his behavior instead of ignoring his disrespectful behavior.

Wondergirl · Mar 19, 2022, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

Scenario:
Mean old man screams at neighbor who's walking by. He's rude, profane, and vicious.

Response 1: Why don't you just go back in side you miserable old coot? Nobody's bothering you, get the stick out of your goozyx and just shut up.

Response 2: Smile and nod and keep walking.

Response 3: Stop, smile, wave, then start taking to him as you walk toward him, asking "I just baked a pan of yummy brownies. May I bring you some, or perhaps some of the cornbread I made yesterday? We can make coffee or tea, then we can share some jokes and stories."

I dunno, did you marry a guy named John McCloskey? (Kathy's only brother) Hee hee

Oh, wow!!! I think John was in my MIL's board (bored?) game club!

dwashbur · Mar 19, 2022, 06:25 PM

Sorry, #3 isn't an option. Circumstances only allow the first 2.

Wondergirl · Mar 19, 2022, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

Sorry, #3 isn't an option. Circumstances only allow the first 2.

But but but Jesus said to love one another. Sooooo, brownies or cornbread show my love! Then that man may start to love others.

Athos · Mar 19, 2022, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

Sorry, #3 isn't an option. Circumstances only allow the first 2.

If circumstances allow 1 and 2, there is no circumstance on earth why # 3 is not allowed. You cannot force an answer simply on your say-so. Isn't that Pharisaical thinking?

dwashbur · Mar 21, 2022, 07:12 PM

I prefer to think of it as storyteller's choice.

Athos · Mar 21, 2022, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

I prefer to think of it as storyteller's choice.

So you want people to be disrespectful? Be honest now. Are you a wolf in sheep's clothing? A fallen angel? Or, or, or - the ARCHFIEND HIMSELF?

Does being the Archfiend help you get girls? Did you get that job through the New York Times? Benefits?

There's a famous librarian on here. You should meet her. She knows boys that wanna be girls and girls who want to be boys or something like that. As for me, I want to be a table - I like chairs. And stories.