[jlisenbe]

Someone recently stated he knew the "genuine attitudes" of Jesus. That raises an interesting question. How can a person go about establishing those "genuine attitudes"? In other words, what distinguishes genuine attitudes from non-genuine attitudes?

[Athos]

Someone recently stated he knew the "genuine attitudes" of Jesus. That raises an interesting question. How can a person go about establishing those "genuine attitudes"? In other words, what distinguishes genuine attitudes from non-genuine attitudes?

The best way to distinguish what Jesus really said from what others say he said is to examine the Gospels.

Matthew says to love your enemy. He also says that hell is a place of eternal punishment for bad guys - that is the traditional position of Matthew on the subject of hell. How can Matthew's Jesus believe in loving your enemy and punishing that enemy with the most horrible of punishments? The two contradict each other.

Many believers deny the contradiction. They will offer arguments that both are possible, but in the end, it's obvious both can't be true.

Which position most represents the attitude of Jesus?

[jlisenbe]

Which position most represents the attitude of Jesus?

You've answered the question with a question. Do you have an answer?

Perhaps my question was too vague. Aside from a person's own personal assumptions and prejudices, how can a person pick out the genuine from the non-genuine? Why should we accept that the words of Jesus about loving your enemy are the actually genuine words, while the words about judgment are not?

If I offer my enemy a life rope and he refuses it, should I be considered unloving?

[Athos]

You've answered the question with a question. Do you have an answer?

Perhaps my question was too vague. Aside from a person's own personal assumptions and prejudices, how can a person pick out the genuine from the non-genuine? Why should we accept that the words of Jesus about loving your enemy are the actually genuine words, while the words about judgment are not?

If I offer my enemy a life rope and he refuses it, should I be considered unloving?

An examination of the Gospels shows that Jesus' message was overwhelmingly about compassion, love of neighbor and enemy, reconciliation, helping those in need, and forgiveness. This is true of his parables and the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount and the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son, etc.

Even dying on the cross, Jesus could have summoned legions of angels to save him but instead he asked his father to “forgive them for they know not what they do”.

These attitudes of Jesus far outnumber descriptions like Matthew's Jesus sending people to hell for eternal punishment and they are why the associated passages are genuine.

[jlisenbe]

I don't think that's true. Just in the Sermon on the Mount passage in Mt. 5 alone there are multiple references to hell and judgment. For instance:

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that [k]the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be [l]liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be [m]guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘[n]You good-for-nothing,’ shall be [o]guilty before [p]the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be [q]guilty enough to go into the [r]fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are presenting your [s]offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your [t]offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your [u]offering.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you [w]stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [x]to lose one of the parts of your body, [y]than for your whole body to be thrown into [z]hell. 30 If your right hand makes you [aa]stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you [ab]to lose one of the parts of your body, [ac]than for your whole body to go into [ad]hell.

There are also a number of verses there that place pretty exacting standards upon our personal behavior, and where Jesus labels some things as "evil".

31 “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who [ae]divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a [af]divorced woman commits adultery.

33 “Again, you have heard that [ag]the ancients were told, ‘[ah]You shall not [ai]make false vows, but shall fulfill your [aj]vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or [ak]by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [al]of evil.

There are literally dozens of places in the Gospels where Jesus references judgment and/or hell. Many of the parables reference a coming judgment. http://blog.adw.org/2017/11/parables...nt-need-ready/

As to the cross, it is evident that only one of the two thieves were saved and assured of a place in paradise with Jesus.

It's possible that your conclusion about the reader having to accept one teaching OR the other is not correct.

[Athos]

Why would Jesus representing God send his own creation to eternal horrific punishment in a fiery hell knowing beforehand that his own creation would become a murderer or an adulterer? It doesn't make sense if you think of God as a loving and just God.

Your idea of God then becomes a monster delighting in the suffering of his creatures. Better for the hell-destined not to have been created in the first place. Yet God, with his perfect foreknowledge that X would go to hell, created X anyway. No, it makes no sense.

[Wondergirl]

These attitudes of Jesus far outnumber descriptions like Matthew's Jesus sending people to hell for eternal punishment and they are why the associated passages are genuine.

And why would Matthew et al. (and even Jesus?) want people to go to hell for everlasting punishment?

[jlisenbe]

And why would Matthew et al. (and even Jesus?) want people to go to hell for everlasting punishment?

Where does it say He wants that?

Why would Jesus representing God send his own creation to eternal horrific punishment in a fiery hell knowing beforehand that his own creation would become a murderer or an adulterer? It doesn't make sense if you think of God as a loving and just God.

If God is loving and just, then why would He allow people to live who were going to become murderers and adulterers? Think of all the pain those people have caused. Why didn't God stop that? And how could God be "just" if He just allowed everyone to break His moral law with impunity?

Your idea of God then becomes a monster delighting in the suffering of his creatures. Better for the hell-destined not to have been created in the first place. Yet God, with his perfect foreknowledge that X would go to hell, created X anyway. No, it makes no sense.

Because everyone has free will. We make our own choices. Here is Paul's answer to your question from Romans 9. "20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?.' "

You did not reply to the fact that your standard of Jesus using parables and the sermon on the Mount to be, "overwhelmingly about compassion, love of neighbor and enemy, reconciliation, helping those in need, and forgiveness," was, in fact, not true.

[Wondergirl]

WG: And why would Matthew et al. (and even Jesus?) want people to go to hell for everlasting punishment?

JL: Where does it say He wants that?

WG: In many of your posts.

If God is loving and just, then why would He allow people to live who were going to become murderers and adulterers? Think of all the pain those people have caused. Why didn't God stop that? And how could God be "just" if He just allowed everyone to break His moral law with impunity?

As you yourself said in the same post: "Because everyone has free will. We make our own choices."

[jlisenbe]

WG: And why would Matthew et al. (and even Jesus?) want people to go to hell for everlasting punishment?

JL: Where does it say He wants that?

WG: In many of your posts.

Totally untrue. And that tactic of yours to just make it up as you go along gets old after a while.

As you yourself said in the same post: "Because everyone has free will. We make our own choices."

And your point is?

[Wondergirl]

Totally untrue. And that tactic of yours to just make it up as you go along gets old after a while.

You've often quoted Bible verses that speak of the punishment of hell and eternal damnation.

And you have free will to descend into insults snd nastiness.

And your point is?

In answer to your "If God is loving and just, then why would He allow people to live who were going to become murderers and adulterers? Think of all the pain those people have caused. Why didn't God stop that? And how could God be "just" if He just allowed everyone to break His moral law with impunity?"

[jlisenbe]

And you have free will to descend into insults snd nastiness.

Oh please. You tell a tall tale and then you want to act like you're offended. Good grief. No one offended you and no one was nasty to you.

In answer to your "If God is loving and just, then why would He allow people to live who were going to become murderers and adulterers? Think of all the pain those people have caused. Why didn't God stop that? And how could God be "just" if He just allowed everyone to break His moral law with impunity?"

Which was exactly the answer I gave to the point Athos made. Please keep up.

[Wondergirl]

Oh please. You tell a tall tale and then you want to act like you're offended. Good grief. No one offended you and no one was nasty to you.

This was entirely inappropriate and uncalled for: "And that tactic of yours to just make it up as you go along gets old after a while."

[jlisenbe]

This was entirely inappropriate and uncalled for: "And that tactic of yours to just make it up as you go along gets old after a while."

It was completely called for since it was completely what you had just done. I have never posted that Matthew or anyone else wanted people to go to hell. You just made it up out of whole cloth.

But if that's not the case, then show me where I have said that and I will certainly retract my statement.

[Wondergirl]

It was completely called for since it was completely what you had just done. I have never posted that Matthew or anyone else wanted people to go to hell. You just made it up out of whole cloth.

But if that's not the case, then show me where I have said that and I will certainly retract my statement.

You've often quoted Matthew 25, specifically:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[jlisenbe]

Where in there does it say He wants those people to die and go to hell?

[Wondergirl]

Where in there does it say He wants those people to die and go to hell?

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment"

[jlisenbe]

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment"

Where does it say He WANTS that to happen? Or that "Matthew et al." wanted it to happen? Answer: It doesn't.

We are getting off topic. I asked how any of you could determine the "genuine attitudes" of Christ such that you could throw out the non-genuine attitudes. The answer Athos gave was shown to be questionable at best. So I'd still like to see any reliable standard that can be applied to determine, objectively, if it is genuine or not.

[Athos]

If God is loving and just, then why would He allow people to live who were going to become murderers and adulterers? Think of all the pain those people have caused. Why didn't God stop that? And how could God be "just" if He just allowed everyone to break His moral law with impunity?

God has NOT "allowed everyone to break His moral law with impunity". There are consequences for breaking laws - whether God's or not God's. What is being discussed here is the penalty of eternal punishment in hell for law-breakers. No infraction of any law justifies such a drastic punishment. The punishment does not fit the crime.

We make our own choices. Here is Paul's answer to your question from Romans 9. "20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?.' "

Nowhere in your quote does Paul say the punishment for "talking back to God" is to spend eternity in a fiery pit.

You did not reply to the fact that your standard of Jesus using parables and the sermon on the Mount to be, "overwhelmingly about compassion, love of neighbor and enemy, reconciliation, helping those in need, and forgiveness," was, in fact, not true.

If you will read the Gospels you will find that the qualities I mentioned ARE true. I have never heard anyone deny that except you. Why you are promoting such an untrue position is a mystery.

[Athos]

We are getting off topic. I asked how any of you could determine the "genuine attitudes" of Christ such that you could throw out the non-genuine attitudes. The answer Athos gave was shown to be questionable at best.

Your question was answered. Your objections to a loving and just God have been noted. You may believe what you want. However, my answer was not questionable simply because you say so. Your reasons did not address the question - they only presented a contrary view, which is your right to do but don't expect that view to be accepted because you say so.

Also noted is that you never addressed the primary point of the creator damning his own creation to eternal punishment. Free will is NOT the answer.